CBR.com have a article on "10 Greatest Judge Dredd Comics Of All Time" I think there may be some disagreement with their choices
https://www.cbr.com/judge-dredd-best-comics/
Quote from: rogue69 on 14 November, 2022, 08:14:28 PM
I think there may be some disagreement with their choices
I'm taking cover.
Let me know when they sound the All Clear.
I mean... err... see you could say.... I mean its US focused.... and ... well you never agree with these things... but the.... and... errr
Wow, just wow... that's a ... thing... I ... its a thing...
Such a good article, it didn't even make CBR's Twitter feed. And, well, OH MY.
So, let's have a look then. (I'll stick a wodge of spoiler text here, and then I assume we can just carry on talking about this, without worrying about the surprise.
...
...
...
...
[spoiler]
10. DC Dredd: Er. I don't know what to say about this, other than... er. I mean Legends of the Law was better than the other series, but it wasn't good. I'm still a bit baffled Rebellion's reprinting it, TBH.
9. Trinity: Objectively great. But as much as I love Niemand's Dredd, this isn't top ten fodder.
8. Cold Wars: In the list because it took Dredd out of his comfort zone and had him confront his own history. Like that's unusual. He does that all the damn time. The story was... fine.
7. Guatemala: A very solid modern Dredd. Top ten? Nope.
6. Small House: I really liked this, but it stretched suspension of disbelief way beyond breaking point. And there are some leaps of logic at the end. Williams does really fun 'Dredd as blockbuster' scripts, but is this one top-ten material? I doubt it.
5. Apocalypse War: DING DING DING. We have a winner. Finally.
4. Predator vs Judge Dredd: I don't even. I can only imagine the writer hasn't read this – or has no taste.
3. The Ultimate Riddle: The ultimate let-down. The first Batman crossover was a visual spectacle with a plot as thin as a wafer. By the time we got to the last one, it all felt a bit tired. This isn't bad, but it's barely top three Batman crossovers, let alone top-ten all Dredd.
2. The Final Judgement: Yep. Congrats. Bring in the Dredd strips – which were mostly very good – and include the most divisive one of the lot. Fantastic.
Still. There's one slot left. A shot at redemption. America? Tour of Duty? The Pit? Or perhaps one of the cracking small stories, like Bury my Heart?
1. Duane Swierczynski's IDW Run Is The Perfect Gateway Into Dredd
AARRGHHHHHHH
[/spoiler]
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 14 November, 2022, 08:32:23 PM
9. [spoiler]Trinity[/spoiler]: Objectively great. But as much as I love Niemand's Dredd, this isn't top ten fodder.
Its not even top ten Niemand Dredd!
Sorry for messing with the spoiler tags but it'd just be spoiler quoting spoiler without a little something.
I see no problem here.
Er what?
There's virtually no point actually commenting here about what stories should be on that list, and where those that are on that list actually stand in the pantheon of Dredd stories (or not).
Except to say a) we can probably all agree with one choice that would be on most of our top ten lists (at #1 for a lot) and b) to comment on the IDW Dredd, as given the comments about it at the time, I reckon most here haven't actually read it. All I'll say is, I have every issue but couldn't bring myself to actually finish it.
Written by someone without a grasp of either the subject matter or, well, how to write.
"While only a short, one-off story, [spoiler]"Trinity"[/spoiler] was incredible and a welcomed surprise for the regular 2000 AD readers as well as fans of the movies."
I have to question that there are fans of the movies. There might be fans of one of the movies, and then people who stared in slack-jawed disbelief at the other one.
[spoiler]Why are we spoiler-tagging a shit top ten? Don't worry - rhetorical.[/spoiler]
Surely the greatest Judge Dredd comic of all time is 2000AD, with the Meg coming second?
©Pedantry Inc.
This is an amazing top 10 and I have to hope its author genuinely believes it.
At least it doesn't have City of the Damned.
This list wouldn't even make the Top 10 Cringe CBR Listicles list.
Quote from: AlexF on 15 November, 2022, 09:22:38 AM
At least it doesn't have City of the Damned.
Ha! And AGREED!
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 15 November, 2022, 10:28:27 AM
Quote from: AlexF on 15 November, 2022, 09:22:38 AM
At least it doesn't have City of the Damned.
Ha! And AGREED!
I rather have City of Damned @ no 1 then any of the IDW stuff
Quote from: Magnetica on 14 November, 2022, 10:38:20 PMto comment on the IDW Dredd, as given the comments about it at the time, I reckon most here haven't actually read it. All I'll say is, I have every issue but couldn't bring myself to actually finish it.
I've read almost all of it, mostly from Humble Bundles. The Swierczynski run, for me, initially started off just about OK but rapidly became unreadable. MC-2 (about to be reprinted in the Meg) looked great but was incomprehensible. Mega-City Zero was dire, and I very much hope that won't me in the Meg. Same with Blessed Earth, which was terrible.
On the flip side, Year One and Matt Smith's Anderson were both solid reads, Mars Attacks was a lot of fun, and Deviations was OK. The four-issue mini-series were all... fine. But none of them set my world on fire. What gets me is this author specifically highlights the Swierczynski run though. That's quite something.
Also, perhaps the writer really does think all this, which means they've not read much Dredd or this is really what they enjoy. That if nothing else should be an eye-opener regarding how the strip fares in the US.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 November, 2022, 11:16:00 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 14 November, 2022, 10:38:20 PMto comment on the IDW Dredd, as given the comments about it at the time, I reckon most here haven't actually read it. All I'll say is, I have every issue but couldn't bring myself to actually finish it.
I've read almost all of it, mostly from Humble Bundles. The Swierczynski run, for me, initially started off just about OK but rapidly became unreadable. MC-2 (about to be reprinted in the Meg) looked great but was incomprehensible. Mega-City Zero was dire, and I very much hope that won't me in the Meg. Same with Blessed Earth, which was terrible.
On the flip side, Year One and Matt Smith's Anderson were both solid reads, Mars Attacks was a lot of fun, and Deviations was OK. The four-issue mini-series were all... fine. But none of them set my world on fire. What gets me is this author specifically highlights the Swierczynski run though. That's quite something.
Also, perhaps the writer really does think all this, which means they've not read much Dredd or this is really what they enjoy. That if nothing else should be an eye-opener regarding how the strip fares in the US.
Yes agreed, some of the IDW stuff was ok. As was the Rogue Trooper. But specifically not the series mentioned.
IndigoPrime has summarized the whole IDW saga quite nicely
Quote from: Magnetica on 15 November, 2022, 01:28:12 PMYes agreed, some of the IDW stuff was ok. As was the Rogue Trooper.
I really liked that interpretation of Rogue Trooper at the time. I thought the changes worked very nicely. It read well. That it was canned so quickly (before the first issue even landed) was very sad. Honestly, had Tharg somehow been able to chop it up into chunks, shove it into the Prog, and then continue
that strip, I'd have been quite happy with that. (Obvs, I know Matt has historically been against reprint in the Prog and also crossing the streams. And who knows whether Ruckley would even want to continue the writing anyway?)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 November, 2022, 02:17:12 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 15 November, 2022, 01:28:12 PMYes agreed, some of the IDW stuff was ok. As was the Rogue Trooper.
I really liked that interpretation of Rogue Trooper at the time. I thought the changes worked very nicely. It read well. That it was canned so quickly (before the first issue even landed) was very sad. Honestly, had Tharg somehow been able to chop it up into chunks, shove it into the Prog, and then continue that strip, I'd have been quite happy with that. (Obvs, I know Matt has historically been against reprint in the Prog and also crossing the streams. And who knows whether Ruckley would even want to continue the writing anyway?)
I think Ruckley was keen at the time - though that was as the writer of a stand-alone monthly. Probably not so much as a weekly story in an anthology (though we have high profile writers who still contribute to tooth, so maybe I'm putting Ruckley down where I shouldn't).
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 November, 2022, 11:16:00 AM
Also, perhaps the writer really does think all this, which means they've not read much Dredd or this is really what they enjoy. That if nothing else should be an eye-opener regarding how the strip fares in the US.
Hopefully we don't let this article's author represent US comic readers, plenty are zarjaz thrill faithful! But I apologize on behalf of US fans and comics journalists anyway.
Comics in general are pretty niche, Batman for example and any top US comic sells less than 100,000 copies a month generally, plus some digital readers. Invincible is a fav of mine that hovered around 10,000 copies a month. So the people who know and are into it are fellow art/entertainment fans who make the effort to learn about cool stuff like 2000AD. And it's easier than ever to get into stuff like this with the internet. It is all more specialized and smaller audiences for a lot of the cool stuff.
For some US fans/journalists who get it, War Rocket Ajax is a podcast that gives 2000AD and Dredd a lot of credit. And they have some cool favs on their top Every Story Ever list like the Wagner classics. They recently had the editor of Best of 2000AD stop by to talk about it on the show too.
If it helps, CBR has bad articles about US comics and anime too. But it is a baffling article for sure.
TBH CBR has descended into clickbait territory a long while back and its list 'articles' are far and away the worst. It has long moved away from being somewhere to go to find out what is happening in the world of comics (which admittedly was struggling before the pandemic and is no doubt heading for the crapper in the UK courtesy of the success of the government in achieving borderline parity between the GBP and USD ...).
CBR is effectively the Forbidden Planet of the internet comics world now ...
I think it's just a problem with labeling and is perhaps more accurately:
"The Ten Judge Dredd Stories I Have Actually Read [Randomized] "
And then an editor got involved and gave it a punchier title. Fucking editors etc.
By Jove I think you've got it!
"Who knows the first most about Judge Dredd?"
"I've read a Judge Dredd comic"
"You'll do"
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 15 November, 2022, 06:25:49 PM
For some US fans/journalists who get it, War Rocket Ajax is a podcast that gives 2000AD and Dredd a lot of credit. And they have some cool favs on their top Every Story Ever list like the Wagner classics. They recently had the editor of Best of 2000AD stop by to talk about it on the show too.
Thanks for the heads-up - I'll have a look for it tonight.
Meanwhile (knowing it was a Flash reference) I had to look up what the internet had to say about war rocket Ajax in general, and found this on the wiki:
Quote from: FlashWikiWar Rocket Ajax is apparently the only spaceship in Ming the Merciless's entire navy. It performs tasks as mundane as collecting dead bodies and as prestigious as transporting Ming himself. As the only ship in the navy, it is equipped with massive shielding which is the only explanation for it being able to survive the full force of Mongo's defences while being piloted by Flash Gordon. Gordon successfully crashed Ming's wedding with Ajax and skewered Ming in the process of doing so.
Quote from: sheridan on 16 November, 2022, 12:19:47 PM
Meanwhile (knowing it was a Flash reference) I had to look up what the internet had to say about war rocket Ajax in general, and found this on the wiki:
Quote from: FlashWikiWar Rocket Ajax is apparently the only spaceship in Ming the Merciless's entire navy. It performs tasks as mundane as collecting dead bodies and as prestigious as transporting Ming himself. As the only ship in the navy, it is equipped with massive shielding which is the only explanation for it being able to survive the full force of Mongo's defences while being piloted by Flash Gordon. Gordon successfully crashed Ming's wedding with Ajax and skewered Ming in the process of doing so.
Love this.
I see that and I'll raise you this incredibly niche microtargeted Grant Morrison interview at The Gutter Review:
https://www.thegutterreview.com/neurotic-boy-outsider-an-interview-with-grant-morrison-30-years-in-the-making/
You want to see an interview go deep on Big Dave, New Adventures of Hitler and other 80s/90s oddities? Here's your chance.
That's a deeply weird interview, when it comes to the Big Dave stuff. I get the intent, but am still baffled he thinks they pulled it off.
QuoteWe really thought we were satirists and we were poking fun at the racism and the sexism of 2000 AD as we actually genuinely saw it.
Fundamentally, it was just its own slightly more modern brand of racism and sexism. Satire cannot be the thing it's satirising. It was no more satire than the crap Little Britain shat out.
I'm also shuddering at the notion of really wanting 2000 AD to be "gayer". Is Morrison gay? Is Millar? Maybe they are. But the strips they wrote – and especially Millar – very much weren't positive in that area to smartly erode the overly masculine and macho nature of 2000 AD. They were by and large horrible stereotypes.
Interesting, but very arrogant interview imo.
I too felt the IDW miniseries were consistently better than the ongoing (though I did enjoy Nelson Daniel's art style).
I re-read MC-2 recently in trade form and thought it definitely read better collected. There's a lot of diversions from the core plot and with a month between issues I recall losing track of what exactly was going on. Whether or not it succeeded aside, I like what it tried to achieve in giving MC-2 it's own unique identity with hyper-exaggerated west-coast culture. Though I guess the same corporate entertainment themes were explored more subtly and successfully in Song of the Surfer.
How do you all feel about the more recent books? Under Siege/Toxic/False Witness, or JD v Predator v Aliens?
Quote from: Lawman of the Present on 16 November, 2022, 07:28:32 PM
How do you all feel about the more recent books? Under Siege/Toxic/False Witness, or JD v Predator v Aliens?
I have
Under Siege in TPB. Perfectly decent production all round. No complaints at all.
I glanced at some of the rest of them though, and wasn't in the slightest bit tempted.
Morrison coming across as arrogant?? Well I never!
I love the way he thinks Big Dave was going over peoples heads and the irony was hidden by the complexity of his incredible conceit
To quote a bald twat I once overheard, "At least Batman has two dimensions". Big Dave was just saying the most obvious thing in the most obvious way - Viz was doing it better, or at least first, so what was the benefit of Big Dave repeating the very same joke over and over and over.
The idea that Millar & Morrison (and also Ennis) werent writing stuff that just came across as homophobic seems laughable to me let alone they were trying to make the comic "gayer" - Ducky from Robohunter is a positive portrayal? If they were truly wanting to make a point about "macho" men in 2000AD, rather than parodying them (in the case of Dredd, utterly misunderstanding the character), perhaps creating alternatives would have been a better approach? Devlin Waugh went down pretty well, so maybe having a low opinion of your publication and their audience is not going to endear you to said audience?
In the late 80s and early 90s, punk/metal and very shortly grunge were all doing very well with working class people - just because Morrison was off his trolley on E and Acid House doesnt make him more working class - His poster boy Morrissey was as far as I can tell totally a Middle Class pursuit - never got the sense Morrison was Working Class or fighting for the working class at any point when he was writing for and being interviewed about 2000AD at the time.
2000AD was heavily racist and sexist? While it wasnt lily white, it certainly was more progressive than most of culture that existed alongside it and the idea that Big Dave was a direct commentary on 2000AD seems totally off base... If my hate of Big Dave makes Grant laugh a bit harder at Big Dave, so be it.
#notmyworkingclasshero
Very nicely put Leigh. Better people than I have written about Big Dave, but the idea that it was too clever for everyone is absolutely insane and the less said about his comments about being homophobic to highlight homophobia the better.
The stuff about working class and punk I found esepcially hubristic. I was part of the punk/metal scene at the time he was talking about and it was doing great thank you very much. He was there listening to the fucking Smiths or the Shamen or whatever and saw himself as superior and some great cultural saviour? Do one.
The maddest thing about is that when I was in my early 20s I was a bellend, full of arrogance that I knew best about stuff, and also thought going on about drinking loads of beer was cool, and that's the kind of energy I can see in Big Dave. To still be acting like that now, boasting about how many drugs you did and how cool you were, seems very immature (the irony of calling someone immature on a forum where I've expressed my love for Battle and Buster comics is not lost however)
Anyway.
Did we ever have a list of the 10 worst Judge Dredd comics of all time? Because I'm fairly sure Dredd vs Predator would be around that discussion.
Quote from: Barrington Boots on 17 November, 2022, 10:59:13 AM
Did we ever have a list of the 10 worst Judge Dredd comics of all time? Because I'm fairly sure Dredd vs Predator would be around that discussion.
The bottom ten would easily include
Crusade and
Purgatory/Inferno, both of which were written by Grant Morrison.
...which ties the two parts of this thread together nicely.
Quote from: gogilesgo on 17 November, 2022, 01:14:24 PM
Quote from: Barrington Boots on 17 November, 2022, 10:59:13 AM
Did we ever have a list of the 10 worst Judge Dredd comics of all time? Because I'm fairly sure Dredd vs Predator would be around that discussion.
The bottom ten would easily include Crusade and Purgatory/Inferno, both of which were written by Grant Morrison.
...which ties the two parts of this thread together nicely.
I think Purgatory was Millar on his own? Either way, your point stands - they are terrible.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 16 November, 2022, 05:45:02 PM
Is Morrison gay?
Well, according to the interview, yes, but also doesn't like labels. There is an argument of holding a mirror up to things that are somehow part of one's experience. Is Spinal Tap offensive to rockers? Is that hilarious farmer sketch (https://youtu.be/_pDTiFkXgEE) offensive to farmers?
It's a bit difficult to get offended by Little Britain - because it's not like they were setting out to deliberately hurt anyone. I don't enjoy Big Dave, because it feels too blunt-force-trauma, but it doesn't seem like Grant was setting out to try and promote Dave's world view. He states exactly the opposite.
With hindsight, I don't think sub-par Viz-isms have a place in the GGC. At the time, I did chortle at it.
Quote from: gogilesgo on 17 November, 2022, 01:14:24 PMThe bottom ten would easily include Crusade and Purgatory/Inferno, both of which were written by Grant Morrison.
Inferno certainly isn't the smartest of plots, though it's close to comedy gold in parts....
- A few thousand convicts across 15 ships escape Titan
- Grice's melted hand magically heals before reaching Earth
- Ship crash destroys nuke-proof HoJ and fewer convicts than the population of a single citi-block take over a city of 400mil cits armed to the teeth
- Virus spreads across the entirety of MC-1 instantly
- Judges are dying from the virus and flee in H-Wagons over the west wall
- Dredd sneaks back in with ease, goes down after two hits
- Judges forget a) they chose to flee, b) they flew over the wall, c) Dredd got back in easily. They're now 'trapped' outside
- Statue of Justice smashes a hole in the wall. Judges who flew over the top are now free, forget they're dying and do what they could've done in the first place
- Grice reflects on 'all those years on Titan' - actually about 17 months
- Dredd ships the inmates back to Titan colony, which no longer exists, then blows them out of the sky anyway
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 16 November, 2022, 05:45:02 PM
Is Morrison gay?
Grant Morrison is married but uses the term "them/they" and Morrison has said that they "had been non-binary, cross-dressing, 'gender queer'", from the age of 10 years old but now rejects any labels
Quote from: Lawman of the Present on 17 November, 2022, 07:26:57 PM
Inferno certainly isn't the smartest of plots, though it's close to comedy gold in parts....
- A few thousand convicts across 15 ships escape Titan
- Grice's melted hand magically heals before reaching Earth
- Ship crash destroys nuke-proof HoJ and fewer convicts than the population of a single citi-block take over a city of 400mil cits armed to the teeth
- Virus spreads across the entirety of MC-1 instantly
- Judges are dying from the virus and flee in H-Wagons over the west wall
- Dredd sneaks back in with ease, goes down after two hits
- Judges forget a) they chose to flee, b) they flew over the wall, c) Dredd got back in easily. They're now 'trapped' outside
- Statue of Justice smashes a hole in the wall. Judges who flew over the top are now free, forget they're dying and do what they could've done in the first place
- Grice reflects on 'all those years on Titan' - actually about 17 months
- Dredd ships the inmates back to Titan colony, which no longer exists, then blows them out of the sky anyway
Either you have a phenomenal memory, or you managed to read Inferno more than once.
Either way, I salute you.
Quote from: Lawman of the Present on 17 November, 2022, 07:26:57 PM
- Statue of Justice which is on the East Coast smashes a hole in the wall on the Western border of MC-1.
That's a fuckin' big statue, or MC-1 actually only occupies a strip about 900ft wide down the Eastern coast of the US.
Or there's more than one Statue of Justice.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 17 November, 2022, 08:23:59 PM
Or there's more than one Statue of Justice.
That's never been mentioned before, or since. Or been visible in any story that's involved the West Wall in any way. Maybe there's only one Statue of Justice, but it goes on tour...!
Or... maybe it got possessed by (insert pseudoscientific xenodimensional entity here) and wandered over to the West Wall because Anderson ordered it to in a yet-to-be-told tale.
It's Mega City One, there could be dozens of copies, I guess. The Justice Department's hubris might just stretch to such lengths.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 17 November, 2022, 08:23:59 PM
Or there's more than one Statue of Justice.
It's a conspiracy! j/k
Although, I like the idea that MC-1 does take up the space originally depicted in the old maps, but it's just a repeating clone of itself - so there are multiple Statues, Dredds, Psi-Divs etc. It's all to do with some trans-dimensional curse (probably from Murg), and all the other cities just grin and bear it when Dredd787 turns up and claims to the *real* Dredd from the *real* MC-1.
Morrison's logic is, naturally, very self-serving. On the one hand, he was rescuing 2000 AD from an out-of-touch old guard that needed a shake-up, and on the other hand he hadn't got a clue what 2000 AD was about because he never read it. And off we go in Morrison-circles, possibly to other planets. There's a certain kind of over-toked, affluent Scottish-ness that really grates. The kind of person that pretends not to know what the word "job" means. Sing along with the common people.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 17 November, 2022, 11:20:34 PM
It's a conspiracy!
Damn right. Justice Department's setting up fake statues of judgement all over the city to hide which one really houses the PSU. It's run by the Shadow Division and known as Operation Perplexing Erections. Everybody knows that...
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 17 November, 2022, 07:52:40 PM
or MC-1 actually only occupies a strip about 900ft wide down the Eastern coast of the US.
2000AD predicts the future?
https://unbelievable-facts.com/2022/11/neom-the-line-170-km-long-megacity.html (https://unbelievable-facts.com/2022/11/neom-the-line-170-km-long-megacity.html)
Quote from: Lawman of the Present on 17 November, 2022, 07:26:57 PM
- Grice's melted hand magically heals before reaching Earth
Hard to argue with any of those face palms - except this one.
Grice's hand was physically protected by hate.
HATE.
I liked Big Dave, and it got my nonscrot-but-fellow-Viz-reading mate into the prog. The young Morrison was brilliant but kind of full of shit, though, and seemed to think it was very cool to disrespect the (slightly) older comics creators who helped to establish Grant's career. Seems like they haven't quite grown out of it yet, but fortunately they got their 'I'm Morrissey, me, only with comics' thing out of their system fairly early on in their career.
I'm also not a huge fan of their retconning of their own life story - 'The older writers were 60s throwbacks, and we were punks.' You forget we were there too, Grant, and clearly remember your fey poet persona and 60s velvet coat and ruff.
Quote from: rogue69 on 14 November, 2022, 08:14:28 PM
CBR.com have a article on "10 Greatest Judge Dredd Comics Of All Time" I think there may be some disagreement with their choices
https://www.cbr.com/judge-dredd-best-comics/
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
When I saw the title, I thought I'd do a bit of a send up and list ten of the IDW stories/issues. BUT THEY ACTUALLY INCLUDED IT IN THE TOP SLOT.
The only thing they got right was including The Apocalypse War. Other than that it looks like trying to flog off some of the more recent collections (not that there's anything wrong with Cold Wars, Guatemala, Small House) and plain ignorance.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 November, 2022, 11:16:00 AM
Also, perhaps the writer really does think all this, which means they've not read much Dredd or this is really what they enjoy.
It does seem very much weighted towards "This is what I saw here in the US" - the stories with Batman and Predator, the DC run and the IDW material. Apoc War had an IDW release (in colour) and then perhaps with a whetted appetite he's found some of the more recent trades to read.
Inferno is at least partly redeemed by some of Carlos's best art. Just a shame it was wasted on such a ridiculous script. I was lucky in that in 1993 I was still too young to recognise its many shortcomings.
Whatever the subjective shortcomings of that article, they need to sort out the creator credit
QuoteEveryone's favorite Mega City One street cop, Judge Dredd (created by John Wagner) has enjoyed almost 50 years in publication
Yes, it should say Pat Mills.
Oooh, you really are the living end.