2000 AD Online Forum

Don't read this if you don't yet know what happens at the end of Prog 1325's episode of Slaine...







I don't make a habit of posting on this message board as I try to stay off the Internet period, but I feel I have to defend Pat over some of the criticisms levelled at him with regard to the manner of Niamh's death.

In the first draft of his script, Pat had the scene between Niamh and Moloch close on them fighting, then cutting to Slaine finding his dying wife. It was my suggestion that we give Niamh - a long-term supporting character - a death scene to remember, which would make Slaine's desire for vengeance all the more powerful. She's been an important character in the Slaine stories, and to gloss over her death seemed like a missed opportunity. It  was intentionally shocking, but it needed to be if it was going to shake Slaine's world to the core...

So, I apologise if you were offended by the manner of her death, as I am responsible to a large extent. It was a horrific page - and Clint did a fantastic job - but that's the nature of evil...

As for the criticism of it being on the inside back page, I admit that passed me by. Clint requested that the story be run in double page spreads - hence the way it's moved around the comic to accomodate, for example, a necessary page-turn (i.e. the end of part 3 of Caballistics) or a lovely centre-spread by John Burns in part 5 of Nikolai Dante.  It never occurred to me that putting the end of Slaine on the inside back cover would be a problem, as I tend to read fiction from the front and work my way forward.

But then I always was a traditionalist.

Splundig vur Thrigg,
Matt.

so was this the death that was hinted back a few progs ago then

ahh thanks for the insights Mr Cyber-matt. My apologies to Mr Mills whom i challenged to an arguement. You musta realised that a story line like this would provoke a reaction, I'm just glad i was on hand to act as spokeswoman for the obligatoryily outraged milit-aunt celtic warrioresses everywhere. remember all you sea demons "NO means NO! no matter how short the skirt!"
guess the input bags gonni be a tad heavy tho'.

Did I miss something?
Why was her death shocking and horrific?

Because 'haunching' (was it haunching that Moloch said? I think it was...) means, y'know, doing the 'naughty'.

mat

and?
so?

Well, in most circles impaling a lady through the midsection with a serrated blade, double handed broadsword and then haunching her is considered rather bad form. He didn't even offer to lay his jacket on the floor for her to lie on!

mat

Oh, alright then... yukky! yukky!

"Thats the nature of evil"? Thats all very well, but 2K is still a kids comic and not, for example, Dantes Inferno. It was a plain abuse of responsibility.

O.k she's dead but hasn't it already been established that Slaine meets up with her future incarnations time and time again? (forgive the pun)
He's already met her again as a nun and that Crusader bloke and gawd knows how many other times when i wasn't buying.
Maybe he wants the original and - when he's Robin Hood - he wasn't the Marion kind...

I dont think 2000ad's REALLY been aimed at kids for years now, considering the average age of most readers is now in the 20/30 something age bracket I dont think this is really an issue anymore. Besides, Moloch doesn't use the word "rape" and actual penetration is not shown, any 10 year olds reading this prog may just as well assume in thier niaveity that Moloch is straddling Niamh to administer his death blow as opposed to sexually violating her. Its called "working on two levels" something 2000ad has been doing very well right since 1977.

Its called "working on two levels" something 2000ad has been doing very well right since 1977.


As do elevators and stairs!

well, speaking as a younger reader (15), i'd have to say that this was a particularly unpleasant scene. i'm not a big slaine fan, but i've seen a lot of fans younger than me at the dreddcons who (like me) worship at the feet of tharg each week, and i'm not sure they'd like it either...

I reckon even 10 year olds would figure out
that moloch was shagging Niamh. Im glad some one used the word 'rape', and readership age aside its still a shocking thing to read in a comic.

In this case it was pertinent to the plot and seems to be crucial in propelling slaines story forward, so Ive no problem with it.

But I betcha if the tabloids caught onto this one a witchunt would follow.

I haven't seen more than a handful of under 18s at any of the three DreddCons.

Wake

by loads i mean over seven. excuse my exaggerations, for i am but a palm tree...

Like the whole "vicar pooping" storm in a tea cup I'm slightly bemused by this. 2000ad consists of horrifically violent giga-death week-in and week-out, and yet every so often we have to consider the children? Eh? Whats with that?

My point exactly Art.
And there's worse on tv (and unfortunately, sometimes the news too).

Well, he's getting a tatoo , yes, he's getting it done. He asked for a thirteen, but they did a thirty-one. But, as the Simpsons so rightly says:

"Think of the children! Oh, won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!"

I conclude.

Link: My point exactly.

It's not really aimed at kids any more and I bet they make up a tiny percentage of the readers.  I'd like to think it was accessable to them today, and the comic has thankfully dropped much of the swearing and vulgar content, largely I think though because it wasn't really neccesary.

Whether parents think this weeks Slaine is suitable for their kids is up to them and whether they think their kids would understand what was happening and if so, how it would affect them.

I assume most parents vet the comic for material (whether that's swearing, sex or violence) they don't deam to be suitable for their kids, because it isn't a kids comic any more and probably isn't going to be again.

I'm thinking of The Radlander in particular which was a cracking story though with some horrific moments and I thought aimed largely at an adult audience.

(..the comic for material (whether that's swearing, sex or violence...)

Oh, thanks art!

the comic for material (whether that's swearing, sex, violence or unnecesary vulgarity)

Ah, but then Radlander was in the Meg, which probably hasn't regained much of a kids audience since it lost its mature readers tag.

I think 2000 is probably aimed at an audience old enough to handle the scenes in this weeks Slaine (and the defecating priest in Asylum).

Certainly I get the impression that the style of artwork adopted by many artists is more "adult orientated".

At the end of the day, it's only a comic, and comics are gratuitous and over the top.

tuppenth worth;

I am not narking about the levels of violence or rape etc... as yes the tabloids are horrific & explicit on a daily basis, regardless of your age.
My 16year old lad read it & said eww how nasty, etc. I'm not gonni run it past the 10 year old & 14 year old gal, as my drawing attention to it makes an issue etc, but they'd probly skim it, being more likely to notice the burst eyeball scenes etc, that 2 level thing. Tho i suspect that it might lodge into their sunconsious to pop out in future..."oh yuk thats what the demon was doing!"
What i object to is the graduitous portrayal of women as sexual objects to be taken or violated  according to the whim of the hero or anti-hero. women are not just plot devices you know. Imagine this, Slains wondering along & a whopping great slathering monster 3 times his size comes along & rapes him? "wha ha youre mine pretty boy !"  explaining Slains subsequent rage & nihilism, i f i wrote somthing like that i'd be accused of being a complete sicko. yet with niamh....?

cauldren stirring Bou'

Actually, come to think of it, there was a woman being raped by a demon in Slaine about two progs back, How come that went by unnoticed whereas this is causing a low-level controversy ?

If there was to be a motovator for Slaine, why didn't one ring-eye rape Slaine? would that be too offensive? It could be portrayed much the same static way. What is acceptable sexual violence? and why is it only shown happening to to wimmin?

Middenpus.

Couldn't reply to Bou's message directly...

Ah, but Bou that wouldn't be normal sex (with two opposing genders) so it'd have to be sick and vulgar now wouldn't it?

I too feel there is a lack of balance in stories and unrealistic portrayal of serious events is risky business.

The real question is this: if laine was buggered by a hideous demon could readers ever look at him the same way again?

Why cant it just be violence...? (sigh)

JK.

I think it depends on who the character is in the story.  

If something bad or outrageous violation happens to the main character (whether male or female) people would be genuinely upset and possibly quite angry.  These are people they feel they know very well and they've been hurt, something they didn't think could happen.

If it happens to a major yet secondary character, one who you only relate to through the main character in the story (Like Naimh) then you would be likely to feel sympathy and horror for the victim and empathise with the main character and their emotions.

Or if it's someone you've never seen before you merely take it as a sign of the horrible things that are going on in the world, and although it makes an impression, and you know it's an awful thing to happen, it doesn't personally effect you much.

That may seem harsh, but I think it's just the way people work, in real life and when relating to characters.  

The real question is this: if Slaine was buggered by a hideous demon could readers ever look at him the same way again?

Yeah! C'mon Pat, lets see that!

hmmm, good point there pvs, damn scuppered, hang on I'll find that high horse shortly..

JK opposing gender..."normal ? " , rather blinkered view n'est pas? mind you there was that text story in the christmas meg with devlin waugh, what a horrible man he is !

It still shouldnt have been in tooth. No matter how much it reflected the brutalities of life. Or whatever. No matter how highly you might value such a thing in any art form for its confrontational and discussion-provoking effect, it STILL shouldnt have been in tooth.

Boarders have often voiced objections to the occasional swearing in tooth. Why should swearing not be acceptable and yet this is? Has it more "artistic" merit?  

Im not for censorship in anyway or any "sweep under the carpet" philosophy, but I think the context is all wrong. Sorry.

You say you're "not for censorship in anyway" yet prior to that you're saying " it STILL shouldn't have been in tooth", isn't this a tad hypocritical, what you're saying is because this offends you, consequently it shouldnt be in 2000ad, isnt this a censorship style attitude to be adopting?

Bou: Well it might make Slaine warp a bit, if he was buggered.
Should you have mentioned that? Isn't it boardering on fan fiction? Watch out, or Mills-y will be after you ;-)

Hex: your point seems to me to be totally hypocritical, and in anycase, why shouldn't it have been in 2000ad?

I was trying to say that whilst not againt censorship, i feel there is a correct context for things. An i feel tooth was not the right context for this particular plot turn. As opposed to the ultra-literal traslation and jabberings about hypocracy suggested above. And it didnt offend me, at no point did I say that. In fact a few days ago I was on this very board defending The legend of the Overfiend , an 18 certificate movie, for all its manga demon porn and violence.  

Whereas before you said youre not "for censorship in anyway" Now you're saying you're "not against censorship" make you're mind up please.

Ok, Ok I got that bit wrong. Typing AND doing nuclear physics is tough. I didnt mean "against" in that lasat one, I mean "for". D'oh!

Arent we all getting a little uptight about the whole thing.  Hexen is only trying to put forward a point of veiw and heck we are all entitled to change our minds if we want.  

Personally, I thought it was unnecessary, thats all.  Slaine's major reason for doing what he does (and he didnt think it too many) is his love for Naimh, thats why he left the tirbe, etc.  

Now her death would be enough motivation for anyone to go and kill the person (thing) responsible.  The rape for me was rather a non event and hence didnt actually do what it was intended.  Her death though has me thinking about what Slaine will do next, its the death here thats the motivation, not the rape and as such seems rather voyeuristic.

yer Slippo  

diGriz? Slippo? Whats going on? Wasnt slippo "slippo"? Why are you now not?

Sl?ine didn't even see the rape happening, he only saw her die...
If she'd been raped & survived - that could have been motivation.
As she died - it would've been better to 'just' have her brutally tortured/mutilated.


(Who said Moloch was male anyway?)

There has been a number of very good points raised in these postings, but the one that I'd like to expand upon is the fact that as Slaine never actually saw the rape, was it necessary?

The way I look at it, if you'd been violated by a spine-covered demon there would be evidence to make this apparent. Slaine would probably have been able to figure out the events that had taken place in his absence, so Pat could probably justify it.

I would however like to generate a further bout of stirring by suggesting that as 2K is a comic, and comics are intended to entertain, can we now assume that rape should be viewed as a subject for entertainment?

Mourning the death of morality,

Karne.

Nope sorry Karne that doesnae wash, cos by that decree 2K should only have fluffy bunnies in flowery frolics. 2K is fiction, no one said it has to be nice & hippy.

& someone metioned something about showing the nasty realities of life.... well i think THAt is a different issue actually. we are talking about fantasy & fiction, (yes yes i know it can parody, satire & be metophorical ..whatever). So i do not expect the droids to come up with an in depth study on the affect of sexual abuse & violence in society. we can leave that in the capable hands of the soap operas (extreem sarcasm alert).

I'm just glad its got us thinking is all. just as long as no sea demons think they can get away with that behavior on any planet is all. send em to singapore ha ! That'll scare the dorty feckers.

send em to singapore ha ! That'll scare the dorty feckers.

Erm, why? Or am I just stoopid?

Anyway, should we be "demonising" demons?

"by that decree 2K should only have fluffy bunnies in flowery frolics".

Now that's a little extreme Bou. All I was suggesting is, are there some subjects that should not be used for the purpose of entertainment. Personally I'm very liberal minded when it comes to such issues, I'm merely trying to provoke a debate over whether or not if this sort of material became the norm, would we all become so de-sensitised to it that it would cause no outrage at all?  

>Bou: Well it might make Slaine warp a bit, if he was buggered.

or at least make his eyes water.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

But then isn't that why he's got a dwarf ;-/
???


I think the rape scene would have had a deeper inpact still, if she'd died then been raped, as opposed to being stabbed, raped, and then dying in Slaine's arms.

I still have to go back to the point I made earlier, the Raping doesnt have an impact.  Because it isnt Slaines reason for revenge.  Maybe Morloch will taunt slaine or something with the rape, but until that happens, Slaines motive remains the death of Naimh not the rape and as such it renders the rape unnecessary in my eyes.

Hex - I am slippo I just get bored with the same name all the time.


Yer Slippo  

Slip: True enough, but what the rape does do, is show Moloch of to be truly twisted and evil. If you like, by showing the rape, his villanous status has been raised, for the perspective of the reader. So whilst Slaine doesn't know what has gone on (yet), any revenge that Slaine gets on Moloch, will be justified more so by the reader.
As far as the statis of Villains go, IMO this is similar to the way in which I now view Judge Death. Before My Name Is Death, he was just a mass murdering comic book villain- But when he started killing kiddies, and WE saw it, he became more evil, twisted, and villaneous. And I for one can't wait for the day when he gets his comupence(sp?)- although I imagine he will once more be made into a comic book villain, a la The Joker, who returns again and again (but you get my point).
:-)

God, why is it that everytime someone says, hmm this is a bit full-on for a kid's comic, everyone jumps on the megaliberal anti-censorship horse?
 Hexen's quite right to say that some things shouldn't appear in a kid's comic, he's not advocating censorship so much as common bloody sense.
 Just because you've read tooth since you were a kid, doesn't mean that the age limit, or whatever you want to call it, has raised proportionately as you've aged.  
 Is it censorship that you probably can't use the word Fistfuck on kid's TV? Why would you think that you could in the first place?

Well said Matt. 2000 is read by both myself and my 11 yr old. I elected not to let him read the second to last page of slaine this week, many pre-teen moans later he accepted my decision and just asked why?

I have to agree with Bou here, in that I feel I may have drawn more attention to the act than it deserves, but he doesnt need to see that. I have no problem with the stabbing, and that made me wince.

You are right that 2000 has aged along with its audience; but new readers are vital to continued longevity. Ultra-violence is one thing, rape is another beast alltogether, and I feel it was badly presented.

When the other fomorians boated about their raping a couple of progs ago, nothing was shown, which leaves the act imagined. Maybe that would have been preferred?

With regard to Slaine noticing Molochs 'handiwork'. Anybody remember highlander (the first one). McClouds wife was raped by the Kurgan, and she never told him. We knew, and then when the Kurgan boasts of it the full horror dawns on McCloud. Maybe Mills is going to do something similar?

I admit that this is the best Slaine for years, mainly due to something actually moving the character on (albeit he is returning to his wandering origins) and Langleys stunning visuals.

I am looking forward to the rest of the saga, as is my son (Slaine is his fave)

Dave Evans (rotts)

I have a problem with the rape/murder of Niamh, but it has nothing to do with its suitablility for children (I don't have any, so I can afford to be academic on the subject). It's just lazy, cheap, bad writing. You want to motivate the hero? Humiliate and degrade his woman. You don't need to care about her, in fact it's probably better you don't, she's just a plot device to justify righteous violence on the part of the hero. It's the biggest cliche on the face of the planet, and it doesn't show a particularly healthy attitude towards women.

Link: paddybrown.co.uk

**God, why is it that everytime someone says, hmm this is a bit full-on for a kid's comic, everyone jumps on the megaliberal anti-censorship horse? **

Well said, Matt.  It always seems to me that claiming the "immoral highground" is a simple way to avoid the real questions, which to me are:

Just who is 2000AD aimed at?  Certainly not kids, but how easy would it be to make 2000 appeal to all ages (like it used to)? It seems to me that ever since the "adult comic experiment" began in this country, theres always been around 20,000ish readers for them.  So is using full on adult stuff really the best way to increase your audience? Is it an admission that 2000AD is stuck with the audience it's got?

The context of the story is fairly important. The writing has been so clunky that it has signposted this event as little more than a device to get Slaine back wandering. "I wish I leave the tribe and go wandering again, Naimh, but not while your still about" leads to "I have a terrible feeling about Moloch" directly to "I'm just off for a walk by myself".

I'm sure if the story had handled the depiction of his better and it had seemed less obviously signposted as a convenient plot device, it would have been a lot less 'controversial'.

Erm, is anyone actually outraged and offended? Assides from a few people not really wanting to show their kids this weeks prog (fair enough) it seems almost like you're all just going through the motions.

**Erm, is anyone actually outraged and offended? Assides from a few people not really wanting to show their kids this weeks prog (fair enough) it seems almost like you're all just going through the motions**

Well that's the point Art - but you dont have to be concerned about whether your kids can read it to wonder if it's in questionable taste, or handled badly, surely?  It was the same with the Asylum incident.  I'd probably sum up my feelings as disappointed that 2000AD seems to be deliberately aiming itself at an adult audience (sure, that might be the only way forward, but its disappointing to me nonetheless), and annoyance that a badly written story thinks it's up to a bit of boundary-pushing.  I would rather the writer had concentrated on trying to tell a better story than thinking of how far he could push things.

I find Slaine boring.

- Trout

Watcher you have managed to put rather eloquently some of the things Ive been trying to say.  I personally dislike the rape scene, I am not outraged by it.

This reeks of poor storytelling (from a man Ive long admired) and sensationalism, lets raise the profile of the flagging story by doing something a little extreme.  But its not, its just strikes me as being lazy and derogative.  I for one would have been ahppy just to have Naimh die, the effect would have been the same.

yer Slippo

yeah slaine is boring sadly its not my knd of thrill

Slaine lost any kind of punch that it might have many years ago. I read it because I read everything else in the comic, but in the end, I just don't care about him, his wife or the dwarf any more. We have seen it all before.
Still, the art's good.

I agree with Trout - i find Slaine boring and can't get excited about the muddy blurred artwork...

for what it's worth i also completely missed the rape scene - but this might have had something to do with only scan-reading it.

the *only* slaine i ever liked was Sky Chariots with McMahon's risk-taking artwork (although his latest Dredd was pants)

I don't think that this is the fist time that this theme has appeared in Slaine; In the strip 'Demon Killer', Elfric 'ravaged' the queens daughters (which amounts to the same kind of rape that we have seen in the prog) but in this case the whole situation was left to the readers imagination which I thought was the best way to convey it. All we saw was the evil face of the protaganist and a vague statement of what he intended to do. And that was enough.  

"Sl?ine didn't even see the rape happening, he only saw her die...
If she'd been raped & survived - that could have been motivation.
As she died - it would've been better to 'just' have her brutally tortured/mutilated."

Oddboy, tell me you were taking the piss when you posted this. So it's not acceptable to have a character raped but it's OK to have them brutally tortured and/or mutilated. Surely, one is as bad as the other? Both are brutal. I think the rape of Niahm was treated with the maturity the storyline deserved. Did it titilate the audience? Was it gratuitous and sensationalist? No, it was one panel that suggested far more than it showed. It was disturbing and clearly upset the reader, and judging by the amount of postings to the board this has thrown up, I think it probably made us reflect on the nature of violence. Look at how much violence we are treated too in 2000AD week after week. We don't question any of it. In fact, if truth be told, we bloody enjoy it. But we get upset when violence is treated with a sense of realism? I think we should get our priorities right if we simply use violence as a form of escapism, but not as a mechanism by which we can explore our nature.

But the thing is, no matter how graphic and horrible the violence, it's still cartoon violence and is only really as upsetting as the coyote having a big Acme weight falling on him. But sexual violence is a different kettle of fish, and should be treated as such.

Thank you Almighty Mat, that pretty much summed up what I was going to say as my reply (except probably more coherantly then I would've done!)
Rape is a grotty thing, and we don't enjoy it as comic entertainment ('comic' the magazine, not 'comic' har har), where as Sl?ine stories have always been about OTT violence.
Ukko himself, while telling the story of The Horned God, argued with Nest that all the readers were interested in was "lots of hacking and slaying" and I reckon that's true.  He didn't say "hacking and raping" now, did he?

P.S. Also note that I said "been better to 'just' have her brutally tortured" - the just in inverted commas, implying a certain ammount of sarcasm. So yes, I kinda was taking the mick a bit.

So, just to turn the "violence" on it's head, how come there wasn't as much fuss kicked up when  Judge Death started killing children? Isn't this  as (if not more) offensive?

>>So, just to turn the "violence" on it's head, how come there wasn't as much fuss kicked up when Judge Death started killing children? Isn't this as (if not more) offensive?

Very good point.

However, I would argue that the Death story was all about returning the character to his creepy horrific roots.  For years, Death had been a bit of a camp comedy character.  To get him back to being a genuine horror and menace again, John had to do something pretty horrific and memorable with him, and I think that's exactly what he did.

The child murder stuff was pretty shocking and unexpected, but it worked for exactly those reasons.  It had a visceral punch to it, and it served the purpose of the story.

Yeah, it was a "horror" story.
Sl?ine's an "action" story.
While I accept that, yes, rape is an 'action' it still doesn't quite sit right.

Because Im presuming and Im going by memory, the act was implied(If Im wrong Im wrong).  Not shown with much graphic detail.  As Ive said now four times Naimhs death should have been enough motivation, not one person has disagreed with this.  

Also Death has killed millions, in fact the whole of his own dimension, surely that in itself implies hes a bad bastard and he kills children.  There was really nothing new in the revelation he killed children.  

In the end I just feel the death and the rape are cheap, 2000ad can make these decisions.  Im not agaisnt this per se.  But felt that it was in all rather unnecessary.  Thats all.

Yer Slippo

That argument AUGHT to make sense, it is a fair point, but I still feel there is a difference. How many people died in Star Wars? Planets blowing up and all? Would it be as acceptable if characters were being brutally raped?
Do we not see 2K violence in the same comic book way? Is this the writers way of saying that we were never meant to ?

I wouldnt have been ruffled in the slightest if this had been the Megazine, probably due to its one time "mature" reputation.(is it still that way today?)

Personally I don?t really care how many women are raped, children killed, men buggered, aliens asking to see the rabbits, perps killed or any kind of extreme violence as long as it can be justified within the story. My Problem so far with the rape scene in Sl?ine is that as a story telling device we?ve seen Pat Mills use it quite a few times.
After a great start Sl?ine has started to wane over the following weeks and hopefully something will come of the scene in later episodes and not just become an ongoing thread where what is discussed here takes over from the story appearing within 2000?s pages.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

Well, it could be said that Mills was using the rape scene for two purposes.

1) To show the reader that Moloch was/is a bastard, in the same way that Death killing the children was used to reinstate his "status" as an evil character.

2) Although Slaine didn't see it, it might be assumed that he could see from Niahm's body that she has been raped, and that he has therefore more incentive to hunt down a kill the creature that raped and killed his wife.

True true...


"John G. Raped & Killed My Wife"

2000AD is sold next to the Beano.

Personally I'm not outraged or offended (as you suggested art).

Of course it would have just been fine if they'd tortured and killed her.  Like any of the other billions of people who have died in the pages of 2000AD in violent, horrible and distressing ways.

i am of the feeling it was uneccary given the overall story line. though illustrated well.this may be more to do with the artists ability then the creators request.

i am tainted by the fact pat mills is so much wrapped up in that slaine is his, perhaps this was his way of showing every one this fact.
it was not needed and slaine is boring these days.
but the art is superb.

For what it's worth at this late stage, I agree with Slips.

And MOONSHINE makes a good point, although we know 2k is an adultish comic, how many newsagents do?

Erm, is anyone actually outraged and offended? Assides from a few people not really wanting to show their kids this weeks prog (fair enough) it seems almost like you're all just going through the motions.

Thinking about this... yeah we are, aren't we?
When I read the prog I had nil opinions on the matter past "Eww!", which I suspect most people did.
Only when we start discussing it do we start coming up with opinions and arguments.
For my part, I have zero empathy with any of the Sl?ine characters nowadays, and I feel that Mr Mills is going through the motions more then us lot!

At least they had the decency to close Niamh's legs in her burial chamber

;-)