Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

"All you're doing" is throwing fallacies about like confetti.

Accusation of using fallacies (in this case maybe false equivalence? possibly just a bad metaphor)

If it was poor science, all it needed was some good science to balance it out, cast doubt, add to, or disprove it.

Request to prove a negative.

.. science (in which we are supposed to trust).

Didn't someone recently warn us that science shouldn't be treated like a religion?

Anyways, I read the article. It seemed fairly sensible until it wasn't. It seemed a very wordy, graphy way of saying that people are dying "with" covid but not "of" it. It just seems a bit mean spirited to suggest medical professionals aren't being diligent enough when recording deaths. They have an unusually large workload at the minute.

[Funt Solo]

...people are dying "with" covid but not "of" it...

I suppose it would be like saying someone didn't die of AIDS because the illness that ultimately killed them was an opportunistic infection. AIDS fucks over the immune system, and you might die of something you had before you contracted HIV. But if someone used that argument to try to disprove the veracity (or ferocity) of AIDS, they'd be talking shite.

Same deal with Covid, effectively. The virus weakens you to the extent that you die of something (like a severe pneumonia, for example). So, in all probability, the scientific consensus is that the death rate (if anything) is being under-reported due to a lack of knowledge. Or (as is the case in Sweden) for political aims.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

...people are dying "with" covid but not "of" it...

I suppose it would be like saying someone didn't die of AIDS because the illness that ultimately killed them was an opportunistic infection. AIDS fucks over the immune system, and you might die of something you had before you contracted HIV. But if someone used that argument to try to disprove the veracity (or ferocity) of AIDS, they'd be talking shite.

Same deal with Covid, effectively. The virus weakens you to the extent that you die of something (like a severe pneumonia, for example). So, in all probability, the scientific consensus is that the death rate (if anything) is being under-reported due to a lack of knowledge. Or (as is the case in Sweden) for political aims.

Pretty much.

I had the bastard in for October. A whole month. Everyday felt like I had shit kicked out of me after smoking a zillion fags. And I'm a super cool and healthy guy and all the chicks and dudes admire my big muscles. If I had any underlying problems I would not have lasted October.

[Funt Solo]

And I'm a super cool and healthy guy and all the chicks and dudes admire my big muscles.

I was going to feel bad for you but now there's tea all over my keyboard.

[The Legendary Shark]

I posted the link because I found it interesting, as I find many of the links posted by others.

But yes, I do have a worldview that drives my actions and choices, and I make no bones about it. The Powers That Shouldn't Be, of whatever stripe (there are many), lie. For a multitude of reasons. They demonstrably lie. They constantly lie. Not about everything, to be sure, but about much. (And if this theory is true then it must make a prediction, which is; we will be lied to again.)

Of course, past form does not prove present form - but it's a powerful indicator.

I do not come to this view entirely through books, blogs and Youtube, but experience. Back when I believed, as you do, I took a seat on the local parish council. The word ENTRANCE over the door to the council meeting room might just as well have read ENCHANT, because trying to get anything done was like playing blind man's buff in a hall of mirrors with eggs in your shoes. The lies were many, the challenges ignored or suppressed. And this was over things like allotments and dogshit bins. The final straw for me came when a local MP first raised (unfounded) fears concerning the closure of a piece of vital local infrastructure and then, after sufficient public reaction, took credit for averting the (nonexistent) crisis.

A long, hard road brings me from there to here - but I wouldn't change a minute of it. For through my own actions, for which I accept full responsibility, I have seen the lie again and again, on the lips of councillors, counsellors, constables and magistrates.

But I don't think it's really about some shadowy cabal of cigar-smoking trillionaires deciding the fate of humanity around a solid gold table in a castle on the Moon - I think it's more about a shared ideology. So long as they don't unduly threaten one another's interests or positions (outside the general run-of-the-mill internecine wars), they generally just back one another up. These are the people who believe, for whatever reason, that they deserve to be on top. Maybe they were born closer to God, or spring from a particular lineage, or possess superior attributes, or have the most money, but they are better than the masses.

It feels like some huge blind spot, forcing us to set against one another instead of taking a step back and counting to ten before re-reading something emotive. I've done a lot of learning over the last few years. I've listened to podcasts on all sorts of stuff, and audio books, but mostly academic lectures from "reputable" sources like Yale, Harvard, Oxford and the like - many of them over 20 individual lectures covering all manner of subjects from African history to microbiology to forensics to quantum physics and all points in between. Of course, I listen while I'm working (not being a fan of music) so most of it doesn't go in. I don't make any notes so I hardly remember any of the details and I don't read any of the suggested texts so I don't understand all of it - but it's fun, and it feels worthwhile. Self-improvement and all that. Great for story ideas too.

All this blather, from lectures to podcasts to Babylon 5, also colours my worldview - at least as much as my experiences - but leads me to optimism for the future. I mean, serious optimism. Humanity is like Andy Dufresne, currently crawling through his mile of shit towards a new life.

I guess what I really want to do is be one of those who occasionally points at the pipe to prove the world isn't just shit. The shit is just something we have to go through to get out of this f*cking pipe - the pipe the warden prefers we wander for eternity.

So yes, consider the possibility that all is not as it seems. Even the things that seem to be something else might not be the same as the things we'd expect to see in the mirror.

WTFL;DR - I post links I find interesting, little nuggets that might illuminate or challenge, cause at least a momentary question - a fleeting glimpse of the attitudinal shit pipe and a reminder that we are capable of so much more once we get to Mexico and Red turns up.

AYFKM? STFUA! - I am Sharky. Deal with it.

[paddykafka]

Pfft! Until Mister Pops posts photos to the contrary, I'm just going to assume that this is him, lol. 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnLa9RWXYAA_Yfg?format=jpg&name=small

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Pfft! Until Mister Pops posts photos to the contrary, I'm just going to assume that this is him, lol. 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnLa9RWXYAA_Yfg?format=jpg&name=small

ZOUNDS! I HAVE BEEN HACKED!

[Funt Solo]

Shark - in response to your giant post - that's (mostly) all fair enough - just not sure what it has to do with Covid.

The "back when I believed, as you do" is weird because it separates us into two churches - one of belief and one of disbelief - but it doesn't say of what. So, yeah, that feels weird. All I've ever argued is that we should follow the science. I'm not sure how that's a belief system, as opposed to a fact-finding mission. Two different things.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

I am Sharky. Deal with it.

Feck off, I'm not your parent

[The Legendary Shark]

Back when I believed in government and its processes, I meant.

Science is great, but not when viewed through the lens of politics. Politics reduces science to religion. Politics reduces most things to religion, I think.

Mister Pops, surely you're everybody's daddy?

[IndigoPrime]

Science is great, but not when viewed through the lens of politics. Politics reduces science to religion. Politics reduces most things to religion, I think.

I think this is a conversation for your politics thread though, not this one.

[The Legendary Shark]

Perhaps so. I do feel that it has no small relevance here, though, as politicians (again) glorify the believers and marginalise the heathens.

[Jim_Campbell]

I think this is a conversation for your politics thread though, not this one.

Also, some fairly unequivocal guidance on, shall we say, outlier opinions here.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Perhaps so. I do feel that it has no small relevance here, though, as politicians (again) glorify the believers and marginalise the heathens.

Except for the most powerful one in the world, and hugely powerful members of his party.  Not to mention his mini-me in Brazil and, before things got so bad he couldn't ignore it any more, Boris Johnson.

Anyway - my motorbike is out of action and I'm forced to use public transport.  I find myself in constant fury as people whip off their masks as soon as they get on board, pay no heed whatsoever to the seats that are clearly out of bounds, and laugh as the people they sit beside get up and as far away from them as possible.      The quicker my bike is fixed the better.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Perhaps so. I do feel that it has no small relevance here, though, as politicians (again) glorify the believers and marginalise the heathens.

I'm sorry but no. Covid-19 or Novel Corona or whatever the fuck you want to call it exists.  I have had this disease and I have the square root of fuck all to gain from lying about it. Over a month later, I can not claim to be fully recovered, I'm always tired. At random intervals I feel like I've been punched in the ribs. This should not be a culture war. This is not a question of belief. These "heathens" are not being marginalized. If you had the desire for retribution for being infected that I have, you'd agree. People who refuse to wear masks properly are just festering cum-puddles, yet they face no serious government sanctioned consequences for their selfishness.

Reading loads of articles, listening to podcasts and audiobooks is grand, a fine use of your time but it's not research. It's the early stage of research, the literature review, but it is not the actual research. More like the prelude to research. And even before that you need to go down a path of intense specialized education to properly understand the subject matter.

Sometimes I think science communicators, making science more accessable, is counter-productive. You know how people are always saying wikipedia isn't a proper source of information? Well it is for maths and most of physics. Because no one outside the field understands the language and notation well enough to sabotage any articles.

So I suggest an alternative to your statement. This whole covid mess is largely down to the fact that politicians couldn't admit that someone might know better than them*.

*this could also be applied to brexit and climate change