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#1
Books & Comics / Re: Completely Self-absorbed T...
Last post by Colin YNWA - Today at 07:44:52 AMNumber 85 - Part 3
Where to find it
The whole thing fits into 4 handy collections but the first and last seem to be getting a little tricky to get physically. I'd have thought with a bit of shopping around you'd find them though.
There is a complete deluxe hardcover collection with the lot in but that seems to be out of print at the moment and going for silly money. With any luck for you omnibus fans that will get a reprint at some point?
If you are after digital you'll be fine as it's all there and reasonably affordable.
The aftermarket seems to be your friend here. The two out a print collections (1 and 4 as per above) don't seem too hard to find and don't sell for daft prices either. The floppies seem to be reasonably priced if you have a bit of patience.
Learn more
Obligatory Wikipedia page
Beyond that not as much as I thought they'd be has popped up given how popular Brubaker and Phillips are. Comics Alliance does a very nice detailed breakdown of the pacing in one scene that's worth a read.
Loser City has a less postive take than mine that's worth a read.
Surprisingly CBR has a good interview with Brubaker and Phillips BUT its just ahead of the final issue so probably best ignored if you've not read this one yet.
So once again I find myself leaning into Good reads to find some nice diverse opinions on this one.
What is all this?
Conscious that this is becoming a long thread and if you're wondering what the heck you've just read and can't be arsed (quite sensibly) to search back to find out I'll link to my opening posts that try to explain all this.
What this all came from
And of course a nerd won't do a list like this without setting 'Rules' / guidelines
Some thoughts on what will not be on the list.
Where to find it
The whole thing fits into 4 handy collections but the first and last seem to be getting a little tricky to get physically. I'd have thought with a bit of shopping around you'd find them though.
There is a complete deluxe hardcover collection with the lot in but that seems to be out of print at the moment and going for silly money. With any luck for you omnibus fans that will get a reprint at some point?
If you are after digital you'll be fine as it's all there and reasonably affordable.
The aftermarket seems to be your friend here. The two out a print collections (1 and 4 as per above) don't seem too hard to find and don't sell for daft prices either. The floppies seem to be reasonably priced if you have a bit of patience.
Learn more
Obligatory Wikipedia page
Beyond that not as much as I thought they'd be has popped up given how popular Brubaker and Phillips are. Comics Alliance does a very nice detailed breakdown of the pacing in one scene that's worth a read.
Loser City has a less postive take than mine that's worth a read.
Surprisingly CBR has a good interview with Brubaker and Phillips BUT its just ahead of the final issue so probably best ignored if you've not read this one yet.
So once again I find myself leaning into Good reads to find some nice diverse opinions on this one.
What is all this?
Conscious that this is becoming a long thread and if you're wondering what the heck you've just read and can't be arsed (quite sensibly) to search back to find out I'll link to my opening posts that try to explain all this.
What this all came from
And of course a nerd won't do a list like this without setting 'Rules' / guidelines
Some thoughts on what will not be on the list.
#2
Books & Comics / Re: Completely Self-absorbed T...
Last post by Colin YNWA - Today at 07:44:13 AMNumber 85 - Part 2
Copyright - Them what created it
So I was seeing all these parallels, this connective tissue, but at the time no one else seemed to be referring to it. So I wondered about why and concluded that I might well be reading too much into things. That there was nothing there other than what I was (over) reading into what I read. And frankly that didn't matter. This was my reading of the comics, if I brought that to the party and that informed what I took from the comics and affected my enjoyment that was fine. It was my reading, my experience, regardless of any original intent from the creators. Any individual reading of any comic, book, movie, play, song, whatever is just that an individual reading of that piece of art. If what was given to me by the creators was there simply as I saw it and it came from my engagement with the piece then it was there, in that reading and is valid as any 'correct' reading. Folks can absolutely disagree, see that reading as poppycock, dismiss it and therefore question my reading of others things, say I missed the 'real' meaning of the piece. That doesn't take away from my experience.
Hence we get the all important subjectivity of anyone's engagement with any piece of art. There is no wrong reading, even if that reading does go against the planned purposes of the creators and book the trend of more widely held views. Everyone comes to the art they engage with different experiences, different needs and therefore sees that work through their individual perspective and they will only enjoy a work if that work satisfies the needs they bring to it. I wrote my Librarianship master dissertation about this... yes, yes there is such a thing! There isn't really any good or bad imaginative literature, it all has value if it's able to satisfy the needs that certain readers bring to it. I come to Kill or be Killed as a fan of superhero fiction and so bring those things to it. Seeing those superhero tropes, all be it presented in a very different way, in this work satisfied some subconscious need I was engaging with and so that's cool.
That will then be filtered through society, media, the options of others and so as a society we determine what is good, bad, what has value and what doesn't. A collective view is 'agreed' on views that are different from those that are exposed as outliers and are commonly disagreed with. None of that takes away from the validity of that specific reading to that particular person...
... as it turns out in this case as I've done my background reading for this write up, it's become clear that actually Brubaker (and I assume by extension Phillips) did intend for them to be there. To quote the Wikipedia entry (I know, I know lazy research!) linked to below:
Which kinda burst my bubble when heading into writing this after for so long assuming I was seeing things that weren't there. I decided to keep all that in however as for so long, until I started typing this one up, having those feelings was my experience when it came to Kill or be Killed. Shows what I know!
Copyright - Them what created it
Beyond all that it's really important to note I think I'd have enjoyed this one regardless of the superhero story told through the bitter lens of a psychological crime thriller. Over its 20 issues it tells a fantastic, tense, compelling visceral and violent tale. I mentioned in my reflections of Fatale (linked to above) that I find Brubaker and Phillips noir crime stories even more engaging when they have a different layer to them. In this case, as with Fatale the supernatural elements add a deeper layer of mystery and intrigue. They allow their visits to the world of crime to explore wider, deeper ideas. That's not to say that I don't enjoy pure crime stories and we'll see that as we get deeper (much deeper in one case) into this list. Just in their specific case it adds a little something extra that makes them stand out to me. It satisfies another need to bring to my reading and adds to my particular enjoyment.
In Kill or be Killed it really leaves the question of whether Dylan is actually visited by a demon that compels him to kill or whether it's all a reflection of his mental health issues. We the reader get to decide what we take from those visitations. I need to read it again to make a call on whether it handles those mental health issues well, or whether it simply uses them cheaply to create some sensationalist drama. For now I'll allow better informed folks to make that call. Though given it deals with suicidal ideation its worth flagging a content warning on this one.
Phillips' art is of course sublime. I think I covered most things I want to say about it in my entry for Fatale. Suffice to say he uses his deep shadows and sharp contrast to create a perfect tone and atmosphere for the piece. He handles the intimate character moments with depth and intensity. The action elements are violent and uncompromising, he depicts them as suitably hard, terrible and with real consequence. It's another artistic triumph with his typical first class storytelling.
Copyright - Them what created it
Errr and yes that cover really does make clear I should have had no doubts about the Spidey references being made hey! Anyway Kill or be Killed is another fantastic entry in Brubaker and Phillips long list of collaborations. It's my favourite of them, though we might get another crime story by a different Phillips coming up later. I think that's as it plays with another thing, superhero stories, I enjoy in such a different and fresh way. It adds a new spin on another of the needs I bring to reading the escapist fantasy of custom heroics. I hope if you've read it, or decide to read it, your experience is as good.
Copyright - Them what created it
So I was seeing all these parallels, this connective tissue, but at the time no one else seemed to be referring to it. So I wondered about why and concluded that I might well be reading too much into things. That there was nothing there other than what I was (over) reading into what I read. And frankly that didn't matter. This was my reading of the comics, if I brought that to the party and that informed what I took from the comics and affected my enjoyment that was fine. It was my reading, my experience, regardless of any original intent from the creators. Any individual reading of any comic, book, movie, play, song, whatever is just that an individual reading of that piece of art. If what was given to me by the creators was there simply as I saw it and it came from my engagement with the piece then it was there, in that reading and is valid as any 'correct' reading. Folks can absolutely disagree, see that reading as poppycock, dismiss it and therefore question my reading of others things, say I missed the 'real' meaning of the piece. That doesn't take away from my experience.
Hence we get the all important subjectivity of anyone's engagement with any piece of art. There is no wrong reading, even if that reading does go against the planned purposes of the creators and book the trend of more widely held views. Everyone comes to the art they engage with different experiences, different needs and therefore sees that work through their individual perspective and they will only enjoy a work if that work satisfies the needs they bring to it. I wrote my Librarianship master dissertation about this... yes, yes there is such a thing! There isn't really any good or bad imaginative literature, it all has value if it's able to satisfy the needs that certain readers bring to it. I come to Kill or be Killed as a fan of superhero fiction and so bring those things to it. Seeing those superhero tropes, all be it presented in a very different way, in this work satisfied some subconscious need I was engaging with and so that's cool.
That will then be filtered through society, media, the options of others and so as a society we determine what is good, bad, what has value and what doesn't. A collective view is 'agreed' on views that are different from those that are exposed as outliers and are commonly disagreed with. None of that takes away from the validity of that specific reading to that particular person...
... as it turns out in this case as I've done my background reading for this write up, it's become clear that actually Brubaker (and I assume by extension Phillips) did intend for them to be there. To quote the Wikipedia entry (I know, I know lazy research!) linked to below:
QuoteHe describes the story as Death Wish meets Breaking Bad with the adventure of The Amazing Spider-Man comics from the 1970s.
Which kinda burst my bubble when heading into writing this after for so long assuming I was seeing things that weren't there. I decided to keep all that in however as for so long, until I started typing this one up, having those feelings was my experience when it came to Kill or be Killed. Shows what I know!
Copyright - Them what created it
Beyond all that it's really important to note I think I'd have enjoyed this one regardless of the superhero story told through the bitter lens of a psychological crime thriller. Over its 20 issues it tells a fantastic, tense, compelling visceral and violent tale. I mentioned in my reflections of Fatale (linked to above) that I find Brubaker and Phillips noir crime stories even more engaging when they have a different layer to them. In this case, as with Fatale the supernatural elements add a deeper layer of mystery and intrigue. They allow their visits to the world of crime to explore wider, deeper ideas. That's not to say that I don't enjoy pure crime stories and we'll see that as we get deeper (much deeper in one case) into this list. Just in their specific case it adds a little something extra that makes them stand out to me. It satisfies another need to bring to my reading and adds to my particular enjoyment.
In Kill or be Killed it really leaves the question of whether Dylan is actually visited by a demon that compels him to kill or whether it's all a reflection of his mental health issues. We the reader get to decide what we take from those visitations. I need to read it again to make a call on whether it handles those mental health issues well, or whether it simply uses them cheaply to create some sensationalist drama. For now I'll allow better informed folks to make that call. Though given it deals with suicidal ideation its worth flagging a content warning on this one.
Phillips' art is of course sublime. I think I covered most things I want to say about it in my entry for Fatale. Suffice to say he uses his deep shadows and sharp contrast to create a perfect tone and atmosphere for the piece. He handles the intimate character moments with depth and intensity. The action elements are violent and uncompromising, he depicts them as suitably hard, terrible and with real consequence. It's another artistic triumph with his typical first class storytelling.
Copyright - Them what created it
Errr and yes that cover really does make clear I should have had no doubts about the Spidey references being made hey! Anyway Kill or be Killed is another fantastic entry in Brubaker and Phillips long list of collaborations. It's my favourite of them, though we might get another crime story by a different Phillips coming up later. I think that's as it plays with another thing, superhero stories, I enjoy in such a different and fresh way. It adds a new spin on another of the needs I bring to reading the escapist fantasy of custom heroics. I hope if you've read it, or decide to read it, your experience is as good.
#3
Books & Comics / Re: Completely Self-absorbed T...
Last post by Colin YNWA - Today at 07:43:19 AMNumber 85 - Part 1
Number 85 - Kill or Be Killed
Keywords: Superheroes, crime, horror, reading more in than is there!
Creators:
Writer - Ed Brubaker
Art - Sean Phillips
Colours - Sean Phillips
Publisher: Image Comics
No. issues: 20
Date of Publication: 2016 - 2018
Last read: 2018
I often talk about how what the reader brings / looks for in a comic can define what they see and get from that reading experience. This clearly has a big influence in how they enjoy a comic, or what they see in it. In many ways
Copyright - Them what created it
is a great example of that for me. How I read things and what I bring really stands out in this one. I think I may well be seeing things that aren't meant to be there, reading into it in a way never intended... or maybe not. It doesn't matter as it impacts my reading and that's what shapes my reading experience and enjoyment. Creators of any work of art are only offering a blueprint to the person consuming that art. They of course have intent and desire things to be seen and understood. That counts for nothing in the destructive gaze of the reader (in this instance) who may well take what was intended, chew it up and spit it out into a mess of what they want and need from what is presented to them. Neither good, nor bad, not right or wrong, it just is. A comic is nothing, means nothing until it is read and only in that reading does it gain any substance.
I don't think some of the things I see in Kill or be Killed that might not be intended to be there affect my enjoyment specifically. It's great comics regardless, of original intent and my potential butchering of that intent. Just I think this is a good example of the phenomenon of the reader, or consumer of any art, actually ultimately controlling all creative endeavours and in a strange way being part of the creative process, in fact the most important part...
...Hold on, hold on I'm getting way ahead of myself here aren't I. Let's start again with some basics and what the heck this title actually is 'about'.
Copyright - Them what created it
Kill or Be Killed is the latest entry in my list from Ed Brubaker and Sean Phillips. They've previous appeared at 123 - with Fatale and this lead to conversation in which I bemoaned them only appearing once more and here we are. I also mentioned in my entry for Spider-man Kraven's Last Hunt that Spider-man would only appear once more and here we are for that one to... damn getting ahead of myself again...
The story tells of Dylan, a depressed post graduate student who is in love with his best friend Kira who just happens to be dating Dylan's roommate Mason. Dylan tries to end his life, but fails, the night after that attempt he is visited by a demon which claims to have saved Dylan and offers him a deal. Every month Dylan wants to stay alive he must kill. If he doesn't he will die.
Given his poor mental health Dylan is convinced he dreamt or hallucinated the demon, that it wasn't real, yet almost a month after that evening he starts to feel ill and the demon visits him again to warn him his time is almost up. Dylan, now secretly seeing Kira after revealing his love for her, sees a reason to live. So in desperation he tracks down a man who abused an old friend of Dylan's years ago who escaped justice and believing they deserve to die kills them. He immediately feels better.
Now convinced that the demon's deal is real Dylan has to find people he's willing to kill each month to stay alive. Not being capable of killing just anyone he tracks down various criminals and becomes a vigilante, hunted by the criminal gangs he kills people from and the police.
Copyright - Them what created it
The series is a neat, tight, thrilling story that in 20 issues covers a lot of ground and retains a tight focus. With that description however I can understand why folks might be wondering why I've mentioned Spiderman early - this is nothing like Spiderman right? Well yes and no. The story is entirely original and falls firmly into that Brubaker and Phillips stable of crime thrillers. Much like Fatale this one has that mystical, psychological edge to it.
The reason I mention it in conjunction with Spider-man however is when reading it as it came out it really read as if they took those crime thrillers they are so known for and filtered it though a What If Marvel Universe story.
"What if Spider-man's great responsibility was to kill once a month."
At the time of reading I didn't see anyone else reference that when discussing the series, but the parallels were there. Dylan was a love torn post-graduate student, just like Peter Parker whose early love interest at times also went out with his flat mate. In Peter's case it was Gwen Stacey and Harry Osborne. Peter felt a responsibility to become a vigilante and fight crime. Dylan does likewise, all be if with very different motivations. Both feel guilt due to their obligation. Peter as he often doesn't see his Aunt enough or similar. Dylan as he has to murder people. But ya know there is a parallel there! They are both driven to use the 'powers and responsibilities' they have to the best effect. Peter to smack the heads and string up bank robbers and The Shocker and his ilk, Dylan does his best to only kill the worst folks, or the worst folks from his perspective. They both do the best they can with their circumstances.
All of these loose connections are bolstered by some very clear visual cues as well. Well they seemed clear to me. When Dylan goes out to find his victims he dons a hoodie and red mask and even though it's remote he definitely, kinda, looks like Spidey. Certainly the early days Spidey of his origin, before he wears that immaculately tailored costume. The similarities are keener when you consider movies versions of the web-spinner. The comparisons there are more immediate, after all the Spidey movies feel compelled to create as realistic a version of Webhead as they can (which okay isn't that realistic!) and Brubaker and Phillips certainly like to steep their works in the grim and gritty 'real' world.
Even the demon who visits Dylan looks like he's right out of a Bill Sienkewicz Marvel comic from the 80s. It was something out of New Mutants or similar stuff. Okay so that's not Spiderman but solidly centred in the Marvel Universe.
Number 85 - Kill or Be Killed
Keywords: Superheroes, crime, horror, reading more in than is there!
Creators:
Writer - Ed Brubaker
Art - Sean Phillips
Colours - Sean Phillips
Publisher: Image Comics
No. issues: 20
Date of Publication: 2016 - 2018
Last read: 2018
I often talk about how what the reader brings / looks for in a comic can define what they see and get from that reading experience. This clearly has a big influence in how they enjoy a comic, or what they see in it. In many ways
Copyright - Them what created it
is a great example of that for me. How I read things and what I bring really stands out in this one. I think I may well be seeing things that aren't meant to be there, reading into it in a way never intended... or maybe not. It doesn't matter as it impacts my reading and that's what shapes my reading experience and enjoyment. Creators of any work of art are only offering a blueprint to the person consuming that art. They of course have intent and desire things to be seen and understood. That counts for nothing in the destructive gaze of the reader (in this instance) who may well take what was intended, chew it up and spit it out into a mess of what they want and need from what is presented to them. Neither good, nor bad, not right or wrong, it just is. A comic is nothing, means nothing until it is read and only in that reading does it gain any substance.
I don't think some of the things I see in Kill or be Killed that might not be intended to be there affect my enjoyment specifically. It's great comics regardless, of original intent and my potential butchering of that intent. Just I think this is a good example of the phenomenon of the reader, or consumer of any art, actually ultimately controlling all creative endeavours and in a strange way being part of the creative process, in fact the most important part...
...Hold on, hold on I'm getting way ahead of myself here aren't I. Let's start again with some basics and what the heck this title actually is 'about'.
Copyright - Them what created it
Kill or Be Killed is the latest entry in my list from Ed Brubaker and Sean Phillips. They've previous appeared at 123 - with Fatale and this lead to conversation in which I bemoaned them only appearing once more and here we are. I also mentioned in my entry for Spider-man Kraven's Last Hunt that Spider-man would only appear once more and here we are for that one to... damn getting ahead of myself again...
The story tells of Dylan, a depressed post graduate student who is in love with his best friend Kira who just happens to be dating Dylan's roommate Mason. Dylan tries to end his life, but fails, the night after that attempt he is visited by a demon which claims to have saved Dylan and offers him a deal. Every month Dylan wants to stay alive he must kill. If he doesn't he will die.
Given his poor mental health Dylan is convinced he dreamt or hallucinated the demon, that it wasn't real, yet almost a month after that evening he starts to feel ill and the demon visits him again to warn him his time is almost up. Dylan, now secretly seeing Kira after revealing his love for her, sees a reason to live. So in desperation he tracks down a man who abused an old friend of Dylan's years ago who escaped justice and believing they deserve to die kills them. He immediately feels better.
Now convinced that the demon's deal is real Dylan has to find people he's willing to kill each month to stay alive. Not being capable of killing just anyone he tracks down various criminals and becomes a vigilante, hunted by the criminal gangs he kills people from and the police.
Copyright - Them what created it
The series is a neat, tight, thrilling story that in 20 issues covers a lot of ground and retains a tight focus. With that description however I can understand why folks might be wondering why I've mentioned Spiderman early - this is nothing like Spiderman right? Well yes and no. The story is entirely original and falls firmly into that Brubaker and Phillips stable of crime thrillers. Much like Fatale this one has that mystical, psychological edge to it.
The reason I mention it in conjunction with Spider-man however is when reading it as it came out it really read as if they took those crime thrillers they are so known for and filtered it though a What If Marvel Universe story.
"What if Spider-man's great responsibility was to kill once a month."
At the time of reading I didn't see anyone else reference that when discussing the series, but the parallels were there. Dylan was a love torn post-graduate student, just like Peter Parker whose early love interest at times also went out with his flat mate. In Peter's case it was Gwen Stacey and Harry Osborne. Peter felt a responsibility to become a vigilante and fight crime. Dylan does likewise, all be if with very different motivations. Both feel guilt due to their obligation. Peter as he often doesn't see his Aunt enough or similar. Dylan as he has to murder people. But ya know there is a parallel there! They are both driven to use the 'powers and responsibilities' they have to the best effect. Peter to smack the heads and string up bank robbers and The Shocker and his ilk, Dylan does his best to only kill the worst folks, or the worst folks from his perspective. They both do the best they can with their circumstances.
All of these loose connections are bolstered by some very clear visual cues as well. Well they seemed clear to me. When Dylan goes out to find his victims he dons a hoodie and red mask and even though it's remote he definitely, kinda, looks like Spidey. Certainly the early days Spidey of his origin, before he wears that immaculately tailored costume. The similarities are keener when you consider movies versions of the web-spinner. The comparisons there are more immediate, after all the Spidey movies feel compelled to create as realistic a version of Webhead as they can (which okay isn't that realistic!) and Brubaker and Phillips certainly like to steep their works in the grim and gritty 'real' world.
Even the demon who visits Dylan looks like he's right out of a Bill Sienkewicz Marvel comic from the 80s. It was something out of New Mutants or similar stuff. Okay so that's not Spiderman but solidly centred in the Marvel Universe.
#4
Off Topic / Re: Boys Adventure comic blog
Last post by Richard S. - Today at 06:11:48 AMSuperted was really popular back in the day right? Yet issues of the tie-in comic that Marvel UK produced seem REALLY hard to come by! Hey ho. 3 issues added to the covers gallery.
https://boysadventurecomics.blogspot.com/2024/05/updated-superted-marvel-uk.html
https://boysadventurecomics.blogspot.com/2024/05/updated-superted-marvel-uk.html
#5
Off Topic / Re: Threadjacking!
Last post by The Legendary Shark - Today at 12:04:55 AMWriter gets invited to pagan festival... I think this might mean even more royalties for Stephen King.
#6
Off Topic / Re: Threadjacking!
Last post by JayzusB.Christ - 01 May, 2024, 10:28:43 PMWe believe the gods prefer thieves, outlaws and other criminals, but if we run short, we do not hesitate to make up with innocent men.
On an unrelated note, Kerry's just a county away from Cork, if you fancy a nice bank holiday break...?
On an unrelated note, Kerry's just a county away from Cork, if you fancy a nice bank holiday break...?
#7
Prog / Re: Prog 2380 - By Steed and S...
Last post by nxylas - 01 May, 2024, 10:21:43 PMCan we take a moment to mourn the passing of, um, Burt in this week's Damage Report?
#8
General / Re: FCBD 2024??
Last post by Steve Green - 01 May, 2024, 09:30:29 PMI don't think there's a bronze.
My guess is it's Rebellion's own sampler, not officially part of FCBD.
Monster Fun are also at MCM Expo later this month, so maybe they've done a run of them for conventions/events
My guess is it's Rebellion's own sampler, not officially part of FCBD.
Monster Fun are also at MCM Expo later this month, so maybe they've done a run of them for conventions/events
#9
General / Re: FCBD 2024??
Last post by Richard - 01 May, 2024, 09:22:43 PMI had another look at the list of titles I linked to, and they were in gold and silver categories, so maybe there's also a bronze category and Monster Fun is one of those?
I would have expected Tharg to mention that in the latest prog though, or on the website in the News section, but there's been nothing.
I would have expected Tharg to mention that in the latest prog though, or on the website in the News section, but there's been nothing.
#10
General / Re: New Romance* comic from Re...
Last post by Swerty - 01 May, 2024, 09:02:05 PMSeems unusual to go down Kickstarter route.Wonder if they'd be open to other kickstarters