The Political Thread

[Frank]

Re Mr Campbell's remarks.

Don't mess with the Campbells. Not after what happened last time.

[Hawkmumbler]

And now to kick off the Campaign for an Independent Lancashire! Ey-up the People!

Ya havving a laugh, mate! Where no more likely to go independent than a wart is to gain sentience!


Nice idea though!

[Dandontdare]

I put up these links to show that Scottish votes do not matter at Westminster, never have and never will.

well, apart from:

2010 Coalition govt (Cameron)
——————————————
Conservative majority: -38
Without Scottish MPs: 19
CHANGE: CON-LIB COALITION TO CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY

[Mikey]

...to a soon to be independent Kingdom of England (&NI).

What could possibly go wrong? 

Half the people in these here parts call themselves Scots,and think Scotland is totally brilliant for being Scottish and in no way Irish, so I don't know if that means they become automatically independent of, erm, something if Scotland goes that way. But generally those people are pro Union so probably not.

I'm interested in seeing what happens in Scotland if it goes for indepenence - I understand why a lot of folks are for it, and I do think a lot of the scaremongering from the Tories is because Aberdeen.

M.

[jackstarr]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26277087

Magistrates to be based in police stations?  The beginning of the merging of police and court means the future of the Brit-Cit Justice Department starts here...

[Mikey]

EDIT:

and I do think a lot of the scaremongering from the Tories is because Aberdeen.

I wanted to change that - it hasn't been just the Tories of course, but Labour and the Lib Dems too. And the BoE, and BP...

M

[Jim_Campbell]

I put up these links to show that Scottish votes do not matter at Westminster, never have and never will. As someone said, he who does not keep one eye on the past will be blind to the future in both eyes.

And, as I said, you cannot project forward from past results in this manner, because the linked page ignores the extinction of the Scottish Tories over that period.

It also makes the mistake of framing the independence question in terms of 'benefit to Labour' which dilutes the effect which should more accurately be examined as 'benefit to the Conservatives' since it would represent a general hit to all opposition parties.

Given that the data presented cannot usefully be deployed to make inferences about future since it ignores a significant underlying trend, what purpose does it serve? If it seeks to make the rhetorical point that Scotland's votes have 'never counted'... well, you certainly can draw that inference from the data but you could repeat the exercise with Wales or, I suspect, any single predominantly-non-Tory-voting region of England. In fact, you could probably do the same with the Home Counties and argue that they should have been lobbying for autonomy every time there was a Labour government.

I'm an artist so not great at written argument

Nor at reading, it would seem.

I'm sorry, Colin, I've met you a few times and I've always found you to be a really decent bloke, and I know that this is an emotive subject, but...

If you are worried about Tory rule, persuade your fellow citizens to vote for something else. Don't blame the Scots for England's choices.

I very specifically said that the effects on the remainder of the UK were no reason for anyone in Scotland to vote 'No'. Very specifically.

Mr Campbell just lied to you Old Tankie, Scottish votes mean nothing.

And I take particular exception to you accusing me of lying directly after you quote me specifically not saying the thing you accuse me of lying about.

Anyhoo, hope that's stirred the hornets nest a wee bit.

If you want to stir the hornet's nest, please try doing so by actually reading the posts to which you take exception.

And I'd like you to withdraw that accusation about lying.

Jim

[TordelBack]

Half the people in these here parts call themselves Scots,and think Scotland is totally brilliant for being Scottish and in no way Irish, so I don't know if that means they become automatically independent of, erm, something if Scotland goes that way. But generally those people are pro Union so probably not.

How did this never occur to me?  A schism* leading to twice the number of marches, joy!  And think of the business this would create for vexillographers...

I love when this thread offers up excellent topics for pub conversations.

MacNeil (and Campbell): play nice. No need for accusations and acrimony, youze are discussing the interpretation and origin of complicated data: drawing a different conclusion does not constitute a lie, even if that was what said, which I don't think it was.


*Or is a schism in unionism an oxymoron?

[Mikey]

*Or is a schism in unionism an oxymoron?

Well, there's the DUP, the UUP, the TUV, the PUP and NI21. And Willie Frazer. Schisms and unionism are close bedfellows it seems!

M.

[Jim_Campbell]

even if that was what said, which I don't think it was.

If that was not the meaning I was supposed to take away from:

Mr Campbell just lied to you Old Tankie

Then a retraction is most definitely in order. If that was the meaning I was supposed to take away, then a retraction is still in order, since I didn't say what Colin accuses me of saying, and he even quotes me not saying it.

Cheers

Jim

[TordelBack]

Jim, I meant to imply that Colin misinterpreted what you had said (originally). 

You're both big boys, and good fellows to boot, I'm sure you can both see that passion may lead to intemperate language.

[TordelBack]

Read the article earlier. If true, then utterly contemptable. What is it with these guys, do they think it makes them bigger men down in the club by beating up on the poor. 

Come now ZenArcade.  All decent people have money, only feckless malingerers born into the stagnant end of the genetic pool are poor.  If you can't afford an appeal it stands to reason that you aren't a decent person, and thus the original decision to force you into prostitution, theft and/or vagrancy was entirely correct.  These scum should know their place, and if they don't we'll put them back in it.

Private sector debt collectors on the other hand, those people need all the support a caring society can offer...

[The Legendary Shark]

Jackstar points out a very worrying proposal. The siting of magistrates in police stations is, to my mind, an extremely worrying development.
.
As I have said before, the only ways in which a sentence can be imposed on a person are either through a jury decision or through agreement ("understanding"). Most people don't know this and assume that, once arrested, one MUST comply with whatever the system deems appropriate. My research and personal experience have revealed to me that this is not the case.
.
Allow me to give a hypothetical example: Let us imagine that I have been arrested for carrying a concealed knife. As no loss, harm or damage has been caused by this then no actual crime has been committed and so the ONLY way I can be punished for this is if I agree or understand to punishment being imposed upon me. This is why police officers ask if people arrested for such crimes understand their rights. By saying "yes", the arrested person is agreeing to be punished.
.
If, on the other hand, I had taken out the knife and attacked somebody or something with it and caused actual loss, harm or damage it's a whole other ball game and ANYONE can arrest me whether I agree to it or not and be forced into a lawful court with a judge, jury and advocates to decide my punishment and have that punishment imposed upon me.
.
This might be an uncomfortable thought for some but it is the foundation of our legal system.
.
As most people are unaware of the distinction, and of their rights, the placement of magistrates in police stations has only one purpose, in my view, and that purpose is to raise revenue for the state (to help pay off the unpayoffable government debt) through the unlawful imposition of fines.
.
Not only do we need to rescue our government from these vampires, we need to rescue our justice system as well and inform people of their personal rights and responsibilities. I cannot understand how, in a free country, any of us can let this kind of thing stand.
.

[The Legendary Shark]

Jackstar points out a very worrying proposal. The siting of magistrates in police stations is, to my mind, an extremely worrying development.
.
As I have said before, the only ways in which a sentence can be imposed on a person are either through a jury decision or through agreement ("understanding"). Most people don't know this and assume that, once arrested, one MUST comply with whatever the system deems appropriate. My research and personal experience have revealed to me that this is not the case.
.
Allow me to give a hypothetical example: Let us imagine that I have been arrested for carrying a concealed knife. As no loss, harm or damage has been caused by this then no actual crime has been committed and so the ONLY way I can be punished for this is if I agree or understand to punishment being imposed upon me. This is why police officers ask if people arrested for such crimes understand their rights. By saying "yes", the arrested person is agreeing to be punished.
.
If, on the other hand, I had taken out the knife and attacked somebody or something with it and caused actual loss, harm or damage it's a whole other ball game and ANYONE can arrest me whether I agree to it or not and be forced into a lawful court with a judge, jury and advocates to decide my punishment and have that punishment imposed upon me.
.
This might be an uncomfortable thought for some but it is the foundation of our legal system.
.
As most people are unaware of the distinction, and of their rights, the placement of magistrates in police stations has only one purpose, in my view, and that purpose is to raise revenue for the state (to help pay off the unpayoffable government debt) through the unlawful imposition of fines.
.
Not only do we need to rescue our government from these vampires, we need to rescue our justice system as well and inform people of their personal rights and responsibilities. I cannot understand how, in a free country, any of us can let this kind of thing stand.
.

[Theblazeuk]

The biggest blow to the referendum debate is that on one side, you have Cameron.

On the other you have people who basically cry persecution every time their stance is questioned or their facts interrogated in the slightest.