As the tagline suggests the Prog is indeed Standing Tall, behind a fine cover.
Okay so Black Shuck still looks great but is basically flailing its it hairy teethy story all over the place BUT that aside we're in a happy place.
I'm surprised and happy to have Outlier back and this well realised set-up episode does a very effective job of getting us up to speed and setting up some new threads to explore.
Scarlet Traces continues to be a wonderful read, and okay even if the plucky chap standing up to bullies bit is a little tired its very well done and scripted superbly. Blink is almost flawless - this is perfect thrillery.
Highlight though is Dredd which manages to somehow wrap things up in a very satisfying way in just 6 pages. Suitable ending to a fantastic storyline I can't wait to re-read whenever I get around to that. Brilliant stuff - which it has to be to beat Brink!
Great Prog.
Not sure about this week's Prog.
Jake Lynch does his Kim Raymond impression on the cover.
In the Damage Report Tharg fails to foresee Bojo's resurrection. To be fair so did everyone else apart from the new PM.
Dredd obeys the perceived rule of Michael Carroll endings as in it just sort of ends.
Brink. Best thing this week. Turns the intrigue up to 11.
Black Shuck suffers from too many characters looking the same i.e. long dark hair and beard. So we get to the reveal and it's...no sorry you lost me...who is it?
(Also as someone posted last week I am now really confused - I though Black Shuck became a werewolf after being bitten on his trip to the court of king Ivar but it does imply he was born with it in last week's episode).
Really glad to see Outlier back. Shame it is the last series, but guess that means we will get a decent conclusion.
Scarlet Traces. Oh dear 3 weeks in and it's beginning to lose me already.
The Nerve Centre says the new Meg is now on sale. I didn't get my subscriber copy today and I note no thread has been started for it yet - so has anyone else got theirs yet?
Dredd wraps up at a rate of knots. Wish it had been half a dozen episodes longer and we had genuinely felt the rise of TC influence more organically.
Love how Carroll has linked in many elements of the established Dreddverse while making it feel unforced (mostly). The use of other characters in larger stories (a la Trifecta) is the way to go with characters naturally interacting as the would do if they lived in the same world.
The contrast with say Helter Skelter or early cross over stories such as True Grit is considerable.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r182/Caliban_photos/431fd50af974bf7159fcfa699301c966_zpslyvrrgtw.jpg)
Cover: Lovely Lynch art. Plain to a degree, but still eye catching.
Dredd: Bit of a sudden end yes, but at least it felt like a proper end, rather than some of the other Carroll endings of late that seemed far more rushed. The shooting of Dredd was kinda shit though... I mean, she was at point blank range with a frikkin' lawgiver....and still missed Dredd completely?? Also thought Colin's art wasn't up to his usual standards, just in the posing/action area...as Oswin always seemed quite static, even when she was concerned for Tower.... guess it musta been a tight deadline?
Brink: I'll say it again, I wish they'd given this to a decent artist.
Black Shuck: Yeah, feeling the same as Magnetica, the reveal lost me entirely, and to be honest, I don't really care. BS is just a tale that appears in the prog, and I've no strong feelings one way or the other towards it.
Outlier: Lovely to see Richardson's wonderful art back again. Quite happy to see the story back as well.
Scarlet Traces: Yes, yes....WW2 white toff officer stereotypes, giving the working classes a hard time for being blue...or brown. Yawn. More lino print art. ZZZZZzzzzzz
Quote from: Ghost MacRoth on 17 July, 2016, 07:45:42 PM
Brink: I'll say it again, I wish they'd given this to a decent artist.
Having gone from not-caring to very-much-liking
Brink, I'm gonna say something controversial...
In my opinion, if it had gone to a more realistic artist -- for example, the excellent Lee Carter -- then it would suffer badly. Cublard's cartoony art muddies things up nicely, distracting from the fact that the plot is actually less complex than it appears, with more cliches than a
Rick Random episode. I think this is one of those cases where style is necessary to balance content. And I think it works well.
Quote from: Ghost MacRoth on 17 July, 2016, 07:45:42 PM
Brink: I'll say it again, I wish they'd given this to a decent artist.
As I've said before, I can see why Culbard's not everyone's cup of tea but the idea that he's actually
bad is baffling to me.
Quote from: A.Cow on 18 July, 2016, 06:02:21 AM
Cublard's cartoony art muddies things up nicely, distracting from the fact that the plot is actually less complex than it appears, with more cliches than a Rick Random episode. I think this is one of those cases where style is necessary to balance content. And I think it works well.
Agreed, up to a point - the reveal of [spoiler]Frannie's evil plan[/spoiler] reeks of cliche, but Culbard makes it believable. I wouldn't describe him as cartoony, though - the poses and facial expressions are incredibly well observed and realistic. Frannie's emotions, from [spoiler]mocking disdain to mischievous glee[/spoiler], are particularly convincing. Culbard said in a podcast interview that, after doing the layouts, he focuses on one character at a time before going back to the start and drawing the next one, to make their personalities more consistent, and I think this episode's a good example of that.
"It just sort of ends" isn't a fair summary of Dredd. I thought it was a perfect ending. We found out what Dredd's plan really was -- [spoiler]I thought Dolman and Joyce were just going to be snipers, but what they were really up to was much more interesting, and a resolution I didn't see coming. And I liked the unexpected cameo by Armitage.[/spoiler]
Dredd was using that Texan judge as a human shield, and it wasn't exactly point blank range, so Oswin can be forgiven for not getting him. She should have used hi-ex.
I don't think Reclamation needed to be more episodes, it was long enough to show us that the Texans were trying to take over; any longer and it would have dragged on. We would all have been like "yes we get it, the Texans are taking over, cut to the chase." It was about the right pace for me.
Pleased to see Outlier is back. No idea who that was in Black Shuck. And I still like Brink, especially this week because [spoiler]that nice girl we were all supposed to like actually turned out to be a total complete bitch.[/spoiler]
Not sure what I make of Cold War so far, but I'm prepared to give it time to establish itself.
A mostly strong prog.
Quote from: Richard on 18 July, 2016, 01:08:11 PM
Dredd was using that Texan judge as a human shield, and it wasn't exactly point blank range, so Oswin can be forgiven for not getting him. She should have used hi-ex.
Well seeing as Dredd was carrying an ginormous bag of explosives, probably not a great idea! A great ending to a cracking story, with an equally good cover.
I'm enjoying Scarlet Traces and Brink, not best pleased to see the return of Outlier which did nothing for me last time around, and I can't even muster the strength to read Black Shuck - I'll try it again in one go at the end, but I've skipped that last few after a lacklustre start (and a first series that I've almost completely forgotten)
Quote from: Echidna on 18 July, 2016, 01:00:15 PM
the idea that he's actually bad is baffling to me.
It's not that complex...I just don't like his style. Much like Gary Barlow may indeed be a great pianist and writer of music, but I still think what he produces at the end of the process is shite. Just an opinion, and many would disagree with me on that one too, no big deal. ;)
Cover: Well thats a bit bloody lovely! More interior art from the brilliant Mr.Lynch please!
Dredd: Wraps up nicely, if a little to 'cleanly'. Could maybe have done with another installment but maybe the meg story will cover that...
Black Shuck: I will have to read this upon it's conclusion, sadly it's not doing anything for me.
Brink: Fucking phenomenal. Just one of the best new thrills in a long time, love it to death!
Outlier: Surprised too see this back and rather happy as well! The second series was better than the first, lets see if the power of three is with this one!
Scarlet Traces: Bloody hell i'm loving this! Can't wait to get my hands on that omnibus and get caught up!
So Dallas: the Next Generation comes to an end, and what fun it was! Another oddly communicated kerfuffle with a gun and a goodie-in-disguise at the start, but other than that a snappy wrap-up. Presumably the epilogue in the Meg will explain why all 50,000 Texan judges just packed in their beatings and executions and went home quietly, but damnit I liked the way everything came together. Congrats Mike, your first megaepic was far more successful than the attempts by Ennis, Morrison and Millar: and those are some big scalps.
As to INJC on Brink: MacRoth my boy, taste is subjective, but you are still objectively wrong.
Quote from: Tordelback on 20 July, 2016, 09:48:42 PM
As to INJC on Brink: MacRoth my boy, taste is subjective, but you are still objectively wrong.
Nah. :D
Cover: Lovely art.
Dredd: Bit of a sudden end yes some of the best dredd for ages! I think this is what Mr Wagner hoped for when he set up the DoC sandbox.
The shooting of Dredd was I mean, she shot a standard round into and armoured judge and hoped to shot through her and get Dredd: Fail.
Also thought Colin's art way above to his usual standards, great posing/action area... and loved his move into silhouettes.
Brink: and I've skipped it...
Black Shuck: Yeah, feeling the same as Magnetica, the reveal lost me entirely, and to be honest, I don't really care but its nice seeing Lemmy in the Prog.
Outlier: gave up on this story a while back as well.
Scarlet Traces: Yes, yes.... white racist stereotypes getting their comeuppance, more current a storyline you couldn't have.
Two stunners and three mehs, like a mutie female gunslinger....
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 20 July, 2016, 01:19:01 PM
Dredd: Wraps up nicely, if a little to 'cleanly'. Could maybe have done with another installment but maybe the meg story will cover that...
yes it does!
Quote from: Proudhuff on 21 July, 2016, 03:59:48 PM
Two stunners and three mehs, like a mutie female gunslinger....
Only on a 2000ad message board!
Quote from: Proudhuff on 21 July, 2016, 03:59:48 PM
I think this is what Mr Wagner hoped for when he set up the DoC sandbox.
Yeah, that sums up my feelings very nicely. This has been a really enjoyable ride with Dredd's eventual triumph being the only predicatble thing about it: simultaneously expansive and low key, using the new status quo to do new things.
So: how many Judges are there in Mega City One now?
Runs off into the distance. Z
Well, after a brief upturn last week, it's another fairly awful Prog this week. Outlier joins Black Shuck in the land of Thrills whose previous runs were so uninspiring I can't bring myself to care about them now.
Brink pulls another great surprise out of the bag. Fascinated to see how this plays out and when we can expect more. Slightly nauseous at the prospect of something so good being replaced by Flesh.
Scarlet Traces might have stretched this week's encounter a bit further than it needed but it looks glorious and the David Bowie/Orlando Doyle Martian has me intrigued.
Despite Colin MacNeil's best efforts, I can't really get too excited about a Dredd story which just fizzles out and has to be explained in a separate magazine.
Good cover though.
That didn't fizzle out! And it didn't need explaining. It's as if you read a different prog by mistake.
I'm happy to see the return of Outlier, I enjoyed the first two series.
Black Shuck is in the Prog! I'm not a fan to be honest, it all feels a bit dull. Just like the first series.
Dredd could've benefited with an extra episode or two. I felt the whole thing wrapped up too quickly.
Brink has grown on me.
Scarlet Traces - good episode this week. Gives me a bit of confidence in the strip as I felt the first two episodes a bit lacklustre.
Cheers
Prog has been coasting for a good few months now (imo) and I'm hopeful that theres some better stuff round the corner.
Brink and Scarlet Traces are the pick of the bunch for me.
I really dont like the fact that a lengthy Dredd tale gets wrapped up in the meg as I dont buy it and even this move wont change that. Got the general gist of it from the review thread though.
I'd say it is wrapped up here. The Meg instalments more of an epilogue. Worthwhile, in its own way, but not essential to this story.
It could be important for continuing arcs involving Texas City though...mm
The "mm" is a typo that I can't correct.
Dredd: A good wrap-up to a thoroughly entertaining series. Respect due to Carroll for crafting a high-stakes story without resorting to mass destruction or (Oswin's Ma-Ma Gambit aside) the threat of it.
Who's Phil Vaughan?
Outlier isn't a favourite of mine - too many square-jawed, frowny men - but I'm glad it's getting a final series.
Black Shuck: It's true, your honour. This man has no dick.
(http://i.imgur.com/PyQyu4S.jpg)
Quote from: Echidna on 24 July, 2016, 06:53:07 PM
Dredd: Who's Phil Vaughan?
Course director of the comics masters degree programme at MacNeil's
alma mater and organiser of Dundee's Comic Day:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/djcad/staff/phillipvaughan/
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/humanities/news/2016/article/legendary-artist-to-launch-new-course-in-comics-and-graphic-novels.php
Gives good podcast too: http://ecbt2000ad.libsyn.com/esw2000ad-prog-14
As always, Butch delivers the facts. Thanks; I've listened to all of ESW2000AD but apparently forgot about that one!
Quote from: The Cosh on 21 July, 2016, 11:06:05 PM
Despite Colin MacNeil's best efforts, I can't really get too excited about a Dredd story which just fizzles out
your mouth is full of wrong!
Seldom thoughtless are the words of The Cosh, but I am interested in why some folk feel this way. I can see this being an issue with Doomsday where Dredd gets [spoiler]some robots of his own and the baddie just gets bored and gives up[/spoiler], but in Best Little Grand Hall... the Mikenauts assemble and take Oswin down witha combo of their individual special moves, including one that started the whole story. Very neat, very satisfying.
Incidentally, I've just noticed Carroll's covert colonisation of the Dreddverse. He's created the new MC-2 status quo, he's installed his Lewis in Texas City, he's reworked Joyce and Emerald Isle, made free with Armitage and Brit Cit, visited Uranium City and even reintroduced the Lawlords! What's next, Mike: pan-Africa?
I had a re-read of Black Shuck I in order to try to make sense of the latest series. I enjoyed that story a lot more reading it in one go for certain, although I'm not convinced it's made it any easier for me to follow book II, which seems almost entirely unrelated, apart from featuring the same main character. There's obviously some sort of trick to writing episoidc fiction over long-form stories, but I can't put my finger on it in this case. I really like the Slaine-ish way the writers are tapping into actual UK mthology, less taken by the characters for some reason.
Quote from: Tordelback on 25 July, 2016, 01:26:07 PM
Incidentally, I've just noticed Carroll's covert colonisation of the Dreddverse. He's created the new MC-2 status quo, he's installed his Lewis in Texas City, he's reworked Joyce and Emerald Isle, made free with Armitage and Brit Cit, visited Uranium City and even reintroduced the Lawlords! What's next, Mike: pan-Africa?
Eh? When was this???
Quote from: Tordelback on 25 July, 2016, 01:20:20 PM
Seldom thoughtless are the words of The Cosh,
You've obviously never been pished wi' the man! :D
No nobody dig out the 'geeshateena' photae! ;)
A less bang bang ending might have worked better for me - Oswin and her Texas City Judges retreating having been kind of caught out (but nothing really concrete/ no real way for MC1 to do anything other than let them). Bit like the ending of Pirates of the Black Atlantic, where you know the Sovs attempt has failed, but they will be back - it was all a bit to neat and old style epic to ahve Dredd bust in and save the day. Might have underrlined just what a predicament the Big Meg is in post Chaos
Quote from: Batman's Superior Cousin on 25 July, 2016, 04:16:56 PM
Quote from: Tordelback on 25 July, 2016, 01:26:07 PM
Incidentally, I've just noticed Carroll's covert colonisation of the Dreddverse. He's created the new MC-2 status quo, he's installed his Lewis in Texas City, he's reworked Joyce and Emerald Isle, made free with Armitage and Brit Cit, visited Uranium City and even reintroduced the Lawlords! What's next, Mike: pan-Africa?
Eh? When was this???
Memory's a bit shaky but was this the cadet judges with the baby?
Quote from: Dan Banks on 25 July, 2016, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: Batman's Superior Cousin on 25 July, 2016, 04:16:56 PM
Quote from: Tordelback on 25 July, 2016, 01:26:07 PM
Incidentally, I've just noticed Carroll's covert colonisation of the Dreddverse. He's created the new MC-2 status quo, he's installed his Lewis in Texas City, he's reworked Joyce and Emerald Isle, made free with Armitage and Brit Cit, visited Uranium City and even reintroduced the Lawlords! What's next, Mike: pan-Africa?
Eh? When was this???
Memory's a bit shaky but was this the cadet judges with the baby?
Ah yes, I remember now!!!
Thank You!!!
Quoteit was all a bit to neat and old style epic to ahve Dredd bust in and save the day.
But at least that was fun and interesting, instead of the full and inexcusable alternative you suggest where nothing really happens. You can't compare that to Pirates of the Black Atlantic, which ends with a massive fight followed by a nuclear explosion.
Quote from: Richard on 25 July, 2016, 06:59:03 PM
Quoteit was all a bit to neat and old style epic to ahve Dredd bust in and save the day.
But at least that was fun and interesting, instead of the full and inexcusable alternative you suggest where nothing really happens. You can't compare that to Pirates of the Black Atlantic, which ends with a massive fight followed by a nuclear explosion.
My alternative wasnt really full, so not sure how inexcusable it would be - for me, fun isnt Dredd storming the Halls of Justice for some shooty action - that is expected. You could still ahve some fun and shooty set pieces and even some big explosions along the way - I just felt something a bit less on the nose from Oswiin (and following on from that the ending) could have set up a more interesting World where MC1s closest neighbour has made an aborted attempt to stealth colonise the Meg, and the Judges at best could only reverse that, leaving them with the knowledge that they were this vulnerable and unable to shoot their way out of the problems they have, as tnye have with every other epic.
Sounds, if not more fun, possibly more interesting (and for me more interesting than Dredd saving the day and blowing up the main villain).. sorry you don't agree! Horses for courses, but I love the we have a much reduced MC1 that mightnt have the simple "blow em all up" solutions of the past to fall back on, no matter how much fun they might have proved previously
I see what you mean now. And I do like that MC1 is no longer the superpower it once was. But I thought that teleporting Oswin to the missile silo and then killing two birds with one stone was quite a satisfactory resolution -- it wasn't all just shooty shooty.
It was particularly apt because it tied the Texas City, Cursed Earth and Brit Cit threads together in a single action - as well as gathering up most of the cast and making them relevant.
If I was to offer a substantive criticism of the story it would be Hershey's passivity - I understand that she's a pragmatist, and isn't going to throw her badge on the table like Dredd or take the Volt solution, but it's hard to see how she can retain the respect of the force after this latest cock-up: this was a serious error of judgement, and other than a bit of finger painting she did feck all to try to reverse it.
True, but as with current British politics:
a) who is left to take up the mantle
b) who would be daft enough to?
Quote from: Tjm86 on 25 July, 2016, 10:51:57 PM
True, but as with current British politics:
a) who is left to take up the mantle
b) who would be daft enough to?
Gimme a 'B', gimme an 'e'...
Here's our take on the Prog:
http://www.popculturebandit.co.uk/2016/07/2000ad-prog-1990.html (http://www.popculturebandit.co.uk/2016/07/2000ad-prog-1990.html)
Have to say that the Megazine epilogue definitely elevated the end of "Reclamation" for me - offered a nice introspective glimpse of Hershey's mindset - something that felt muted during the whole mega-epic. Not sure whether I will be continuing to read the Megazine after this, but I must admit I did like the added page count to the episodes.
Great to see Outlier back too, and that it has a finite ending. I also like how the concept has switched completely since the initial series with Carcer now under the thrall of the Hurde instead of Caul.
The stories in the Prog 1991 are all very good , except Black Shuck , liked the 1st story , but this second one
leaves me cold - cant get into to it - I hope it doesn't return , sadly
I hope that the New Story that replaces it , is Gordon Rennie's Jaegir -
which will be called War Child
( he revealed that at the Edinburgh Comic Con in April )
I loved the 1st and 2nd series ( and bought the collected stories from 2000ad )
plus the art from Simon Coleby is simply tremendous .
Quote from: Tordelback on 25 July, 2016, 10:57:02 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 25 July, 2016, 10:51:57 PM
True, but as with current British politics:
a) who is left to take up the mantle
b) who would be daft enough to?
Gimme a 'B', gimme an 'e'...
A little too early for that but it may not be the inevitability we expect.
Agree completely, just having a bit of fun...
Quote from: Tordelback on 25 July, 2016, 10:57:02 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 25 July, 2016, 10:51:57 PM
True, but as with current British politics:
a) who is left to take up the mantle
b) who would be good enough to?
Gimme a 'B', gimme an 'e'...
That's not how you spell Nicola! :thumbsup:
Glad to see the back of a simply rotten Dredd 'epic'. One that showed promise (the TC element, the screamer) but threw it all away with a finale of unconvincing stupidity.. Dredd attacking the Halls of Justice with what, five people? That's all the loyal judges Giant, Rico, Beany et al could muster? And suddenly the halls of justice has about 2 judges on the door? And then they get 'lost' to sensors by going up a MASSIVE internal structure. But that's okay because somehow Beany (who is missing) is all over that....And then all of a sudden we add the end of Oz/Kraken into our Apolypse War Silo threat? It never felt like anyone was ever in peril, characters had no personality beyond 'the old man is hard' 'yeah'... 'Hey why is Armitage needed to push the button? Dunno, why is Joyce needed to mark the target? Dunno really, but hey maybe Hollywood slick cutting 'plans' oblivate the need to actually have a proper ending and I can just do Trifecta (storm the Halls of Justice!) Ugh.
Well at least all the anti British false flag stuff is done with for now. No doubt Irish nationalism will make another unwelcome foray into Dredd again soon enough.
Wonder what Smiley made of it all. He must have been out of town.
Quote from: BPP on 29 July, 2016, 02:26:43 AM
at least all the anti British false flag stuff is done with for now. No doubt Irish nationalism will make another unwelcome foray into Dredd again soon enough.
Pretty much the rest of the world feels the same way about our imperial adventures.
I enjoyed parts of
Every Empire Falls, but taken as a whole it feels a little wobbly and uneventful. I don't have the problems with plot convenience pointed out above (and by ECBT's Orlok (https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2016/07/28/prog-1989-review-orlok/)), but Oswin was an uninteresting villain.
All we
saw of her "invasion" was a mutie being shot, Giant being mugged, and psi judges being taken out (for reasons that remain unclear). Oswin's whole segment of the story was two months of her being passive aggressive to Hershey in an office.
That line about Hershey being
caged by her office proved to be depressingly literal.
There was nothing wrong with
Lion's Den, it just wasn't involving and didn't make any difference to how the story turned out
at all. Which leaves
Grindstone Cowboys, which I really enjoyed, and
Reclamation, which I thought was fun. More good than
not, but what an awful lot of completely unnecessary
not.
Quote from: BPP on 29 July, 2016, 02:26:43 AM
why is Armitage needed to push the button? Dunno, why is Joyce needed to mark the target? Dunno really,
Then try paying attention - this was a unique prototype long-range teleporter located in Brit Cit - that's why Armitage was needed and why the target had to be remotely tagged (by Dolman, not Joyce).
The hidden lift shaft was a bit of a stretch though
Quote from: Dandontdare on 29 July, 2016, 08:23:49 AM
The hidden lift shaft was a bit of a stretch though
I'm still impressed how they can accommodate a hidden lift shaft
and a secret tunnel under Fargo's tomb
and Smiley's invisible office without anyone in the planning department noticing.
was the lift shaft supposed to be hidden? or just likely that the MC3 judges would be unaware of it. Halls of Justice aren't in any way dwarfed by all these fooking huge arcologies surrounding it, so would have to be a beast in itself. One overlooked emergency lift-shaft in something that size is hardly a stretch, nor is someone having rooms hidden off. You get rooms or even floors that don't get used/visited in a regular office building, let alone a vast administration building
I have to say: the lift shaft didn't bother me at all. Seems perfectly logical that the Chief Judge would have a secure means of emergency exit, so it's quite neat that a usurper would be unaware of it, whilst insiders could use it as a means of entrance.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 29 July, 2016, 08:23:49 AM
Quote from: BPP on 29 July, 2016, 02:26:43 AM
why is Armitage needed to push the button? Dunno, why is Joyce needed to mark the target? Dunno really,
Then try paying attention - this was a unique prototype long-range teleporter located in Brit Cit - that's why Armitage was needed and why the target had to be remotely tagged (by Dolman, not Joyce).
The hidden lift shaft was a bit of a stretch though
Hi, thanks for the personal insult.
Yes I got that's what it all was but why did it need to be there? It didn't. It was just complication so that at point 'E' we get Dredd, Joyce and Armitage all going 'bifff baff boom: job done'. Except we've not seen Armitage for weeks, he literally appears in ONE panel, and Joyce was packed off to the roof easy as pie a few firefights back. There is no tension, no REASON, no point to it all. It could easily have been a long range teleporter located in London that needed Dredd press a button on the bomb bag. Armitages butt must have got a bit sore waiting there all that time. And Joyce must be glad the halls of justice have big windows.
Plus, a teleporter that needs a long range rifle to set its target? What? Plus they said the experimental was it could teleport between any two locations whereas Brit cit tech was between two teleport stations. Now if that's your experimental tech who adds a 'remote targeting by long range rifle' to the experimental package.
Anyhow, it's just a story. No point rowing over it. Most of you enjoyed it but for me it's another complete dud. With some nice art.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 29 July, 2016, 09:41:26 AM
I have to say: the lift shaft didn't bother me at all. Seems perfectly logical that the Chief Judge would have a secure means of emergency exit, so it's quite neat that a usurper would be unaware of it, whilst insiders could use it as a means of entrance.
At least this time it wasn't full of Doleman crushing rocks that mysteriously fail to crush Doleman.
Quote from: BPP on 29 July, 2016, 09:48:23 AM
Plus they said the experimental was it could teleport between any two locations whereas Brit cit tech was between two teleport stations.
No it wasn't or Brit Cit would have had to covertly installed a teleport station on a MC1 manta to have got Dredd out in the first place ??
Err... Brit Cit was using the Sov Tech. That's their 'wot me gov'? when kidnapping Dredd.
They quite clearly say this in prog 1984.
Quote from: BPP on 29 July, 2016, 02:26:43 AM
Wonder what Smiley made of it all. He must have been out of town.
Damn, I knew Carroll slipped up! He forgot that all existential threats to Justice Dept would be solved by Judge Smiley, just as they always have. Dredd should have left well alone and let him handle it. Because that would make for a much more interesting strip.
Quote from: BPP on 29 July, 2016, 09:48:23 AM
Hi, thanks for the personal insult.
I guess the intended lighthearted tone didn't come across - no insult intended
Quote from: A.Cow on 29 July, 2016, 09:22:34 AM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 29 July, 2016, 08:23:49 AM
The hidden lift shaft was a bit of a stretch though
I'm still impressed how they can accommodate a hidden lift shaft and a secret tunnel under Fargo's tomb and Smiley's invisible office without anyone in the planning department noticing.
Er, you what Guv?
Secret tunnel used by Dredd in the Apocalypse War.
That secret research facility where, until told other wise, they're keeping Sabbats head...
Quote from: Tordelback on 29 July, 2016, 11:22:12 AM
Quote from: BPP on 29 July, 2016, 02:26:43 AM
Wonder what Smiley made of it all. He must have been out of town.
Carroll slipped up! He forgot that all existential threats to Justice Dept would be solved by Judge Smiley, just as they always have.
Yeah, but he was
inside the Chief Judge's office while Oswin had Hershey at gunpoint,
watching it all happen and dipping another Rich Tea in his Yellow Label.
Smiley sat out much worse tragedies than
Who Dares Oswins, but that raises the question of why he parted the plasterboard for Bachman but not for Oswin
[1] under pretty much identical circumstances. [2]While acknowledging they're all just stories made up by a man, and that
any story starts coming apart if you choose to pick at it, can we all agree that Smiley was a
terrible idea from the point of view of future stories?
[3][1] ... or Kazan, or Necropolis, or Narcos ...
[2] Bad lady holding Hershey and Dredd at gunpoint in the CJ's office
[3] He's joined Anderson and the Birdie on the list of things that need explained away before any writer can get on with telling their story.
It's okay to not like a story, but I think some of the criticism has been unduly harsh, especially coming from people who've forgotten or didn't understand most of it.
The remote teleporter is how the British kidnapped Dredd in the first place. You remember -- the climax to The Grindstone Cowboys where Dredd's h-wagon exploded and which made a lot of readers think for a few weeks that Dredd had actually finally been killed off. Until he turned up alive in Brit-Cit and got rescued. Which kind of explains why The Lion's Den part of the story existed. Now if you didn't enjoy The Lion's Den then that's fine, that's your prerogative, but it's a bit of a stretch to say that whole part of the story could have been skipped altogether, as if Dredd just magically turning up in MC1 and telling us where he's been and how he got back in a couple of speech bubbles of exposition would somehow be more entertaining.
And a remote teleporter needs co-ordinates. The rifle was one way to get them. I suppose MC could have come up with a less dramatic way to do that, but would that have improved the story?
Have to agree with Richard here, in fact I think most of BPP's gripes are strong points of the story. In particular I was impressed by how the finale managed to make use of all the strands and elements, however briefly.
Carroll is trying a different tack with epics here, pulling in characters and locations in the wider Dreddverse to make a sort of multi-thread globetrotting quasi-political thing (yes I know Trifecta is a something of a precedent). It wasn't perfect, but it was fun and inventive and streets ahead of 'grim unstoppable megadeath event No. 23', plus it was a writer playing to his own strengths. Personally I'd have enjoyed a Devlin thread added in just for fun.
And ignoring Smiley's existence at all times is the only thing a writer can do. It's how he'd want it to be.
Quote from: Richard on 29 July, 2016, 05:55:38 PM
The remote teleporter is how the British kidnapped Dredd in the first place ... it's a bit of a stretch to say that whole part of the story could have been skipped altogether, as if Dredd just magically turning up in MC1 and telling us where he's been and how he got back in a couple of speech bubbles of exposition would somehow be more entertaining.
Nobody thought Dredd was actually dead, so the reader was left marking time until he woke up and the story started again.
[1]I enjoyed some of Lion's Den, but it took Joyce
8 weeks to fall down the same hole as Javier Bardem's train in
Skyfall, pop round Armitage's flat, and give Dredd a lift back to MC1. Not
terrible in any way, just uneventful.
The death and Brit Cit parts of the story are unimportant to the story of a coup in MC1. Because the teleport element had already been introduced, I thought Carroll's use of it to dispatch Oswin was neat, but it wasn't so great it made 8 weeks in a coma fun.
[1] Carroll only took Dredd off the board for a couple of months because Tharg asked him for a story that could be split between 2000ad and the Megazine (7m 15s (http://2000adthrillcast.podomatic.com/entry/2016-05-03T21_00_00-07_00)).
I'd counter by saying that the structure if this story meant that individual elements didn't have to be solely in service of the whole. Lion's Den was an opportunity for the Dredd strip's first (?) sustained visit to Brit Cit (Doomsday hardly counts), some fun Holden background gags, a lengthy chase, not-much-of-a surprise cameo for Armitage... it was entertaining on its own merits, if not judged purely on how much it advanced the plot. And plenty of folk seemed to buy into 'Dredd...dead?', even if cynical grognards such as one finds around these parts didn't.
Quote from: Tordelback on 29 July, 2016, 07:21:49 PM
Lion's Den was ... some fun Holden background gags, a lengthy chase, not-much-of-a surprise cameo for Armitage... it was entertaining on its own merits
Yeah, most of it was fun. If it had been 5 parts long, like
Grindstone and
Reclamation, I wouldn't have been bored.
Carroll's remarks on the Thrill Cast (http://2000adthrillcast.podomatic.com/entry/2016-05-03T21_00_00-07_00), that the pacing of the story was determined by the decision to split it between prog and Meg, explains why
Lion's Den took 8 weeks to resolve, rather than the 5 weeks the more eventful
Reclamation was squeezed into.
As far as the entitled whining of genre fans is concerned, 3 extra weeks of wishing Dredd's alarm clock would go off is pretty small beer. I'll get over it
(like Dredd got over being dead); nobody died
(even if we were supposed to think they had).
So there seems to be a criticism that certain episodes didn't advance the plot.
er...I take it most of us on the board have read The Cursed Earth and the Judge Child Quest? Anyone think they are classics? Notice the episodes that didn't move the plot forward?
I think the use of the teleporter at the end actually worked better because we'd seen it before. If we hadn't then it would have felt that it had just come out of nowhere, in a desperate move by the writer because he was too lazy to think of an ending that made sense. Instead, the ending made perfect sense because it had been set up weeks earlier, by which time enough time had passed that it we'd have forgotten about it so it wasn't obvious that it was going to be part of the climax of the story.
Quote from: Richard on 29 July, 2016, 11:40:47 PM
Quote from: Butch on 29 July, 2016, 06:53:24 PM
Because the teleport element had already been introduced, I thought Carroll's use of it to dispatch Oswin was neat
I think the use of the teleporter at the end actually worked better because we'd seen it before. If we hadn't then it would have felt that it had just come out of nowhere, in a desperate move by the writer because he was too lazy to think of an ending that made sense. Instead, the ending made perfect sense because it had been set up weeks earlier, by which time enough time had passed that it we'd have forgotten about it so it wasn't obvious that it was going to be part of the climax of the story.
I thought that was what I said ... but we agree, so hurrah!
Quote from: Butch on 29 July, 2016, 07:57:55 PM
Carroll's remarks on the Thrill Cast (http://2000adthrillcast.podomatic.com/entry/2016-05-03T21_00_00-07_00), that the pacing of the story was determined by the decision to split it between prog and Meg, explains why Lion's Den took 8 weeks to resolve, rather than the 5 weeks the more eventful Reclamation was squeezed into.
Ahh, interesting. Will have to catch up on my Thrillcasts.
Hmm, I seem to have hallucinated reading a sentence with the exact opposite meaning. Might be the onset of senility.
(Which thread is this again?)
Smiley is absolutely fine as a character and idea, the problem lies in him being in a magic kingdom right next door to the Chief Judges office. Remove that element and he's a powerful schemer who can be blindsided and rendered vulnerable by things outside his chess game.
Of particular interest would be his age and whether he is seeking to replace himself and the contrast to Dredd's endurance.
Of course he'd need to be handled by the talented end of the script pool, the ones that manage to invest their characters with personality.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 29 July, 2016, 04:58:39 PM
That secret research facility where, until told other wise, they're keeping Sabbats head...
Which Prog(s) please???