2000 AD Online Forum

...and so everyting wraps up this issue...

Dredd, nice little one-off by Robbie Morrison and the great Cliff Robinson, great traditional and solid art style as ever,

The 86'ers, never been sure about this story, maybe i just need to reread from the start.

Greysuit, a conclusion of sorts but obviously a set up for book 2,i liked this if its a little perverted in parts, but why the hell isnt it MACH 1???

Robo-Hunter, the big shock here is the change of artist in the last episode, anyone know why this was done? Samantha looks like a BOY!!!

Defoe 1666, ive liked this dispite not really knowing whats going on half the time, i assume it will be back..

Overall a steady prog, however the teaser for next week looks great, i assume its one of those one of pictures done by Cliff and none of those weird looking guys will actually appear???...

Grrr! It's the summer holidays and my prog hasn't arrived on a Monday - twats!

Anyone know what the line up for 1550 is going to be?

I know Judge Dredd: Mandroid 2 kicks off, but that's it.

...the blurb on the inside back page lists only Dredd, the ABC Warriors and Stone Island, which is a bit light for a jump on prog so there must be atleast one other with maybe one story being double length...

"...and so everyting wraps up this issue... "

Well, aside from three of the four stories I read over breakfast (I didn't bother with Defoe yet) being "TO BE CONTINUED!". Gnh.

The cover: Meh.

Dredd was all right, for a Morrison strip. He's good at scripting for the hopelessness of many Meg citizens and appears better when his Dredd doesn't show up that much.

86ers. Bleh. I've never been a big RT fan, but this is even duller than that series. Here's hoping the Norts show up in a huge, fuck-off craft and just nuke the 86ers to the beyond.

Greysuit. Hmm. It was OK, but felt very 1970s (unlike Savage, which managed to be more contemporary). I've not been a fan of Higgins' art for a long time now, so that didn't help.

Robo-Hunter. Just awful. Really, really bad. And what did happen to Sam's head?

The best bit about the Prog: the next-week page. I've been full of praise for 2000 AD over the past year, recommending it to all and sundry, but this past couple of months has seen a real dip in quality for me.

Agggh, no prog, normally very reliable postie gets it he early Monday, bak to work I suppose

GrumpHuff

Cabilistics is back as well I think

Last week's prog finally turned up on Saturday, so I wasn't greatly surprised to find that this week's prog wasn't waiting for me on the mat.  Damn you, striking postmen!  Get second jobs, like the rest of the poorly paid!

Not even Rose's cute smiling face on the doorstep would make Postie Pinko bring me a prog.

He did, however, bring me my MOT bill for £383.

Damn the Royal Mail and its evil staff!

- Trout

if it's any consolation, i've been on holiday for a week or so, and on my return was presented with two lovely progs and a nostalgia-tinted ro-busters x-treme edition, waiting patiently underneath the letterbox...

gawd bless you Royal Mail - thanks for confining your legendarily patchy service to those areas where squaxx deserve their progs the least ;)

they wouldn't do it in york... it's just too posh

thinky

Prog arrived at 1pm today - well done lads, two progs in 4 days keep it up!

I liked the Dredd which was unusual for a Morrison one-off. No great surprises or consequences just a slice of life with an inevitable conclusion. Surprised that a mental can get through 15 years undetected at the Academy of Law.

Of the other 4 strips all finished with a 'coming back soon' tagline. Given it's generally accepted to be a weak line up that can't be a good thing.

The 86'ers finished with the best episode of a weak run. No surprise to see that bigger perils lie ahead - looks like 5 episodes spunked away on a weedy preamble.

There was similarly no resolution in Grey Suit which hasn't engaged me at all. There are now two dull agents on the trail of the faceless baddie. Don't rush back now. On the nit pick front Air Bosna ceased trading in 2003 but who said it was real life?

Robo-Hunter Good news it's done, bad news it's coming back. Last week she got a mission this week she packed up and set off on the mission. What a waste of time. That Sam is like Seinfeld 'Two-face' - she's alternates between pretty and ugly in each panel!

Defoe ended his zombie scrap for now, and having stolen just about everything else from Canon Fodder he steals his last minute escape using a flying rope ladder too. More soon. Goody.

I wish Tharg would preach that 'brevity is the soul of wit' to his droids as these padded stories are nothing but a stepping stone to the next 6-parter which will no doubt be more of the same. Can't help but think that a lot of the old guard writers are getting away with tosh that a new hack would have returned with a stinging rejection. Better stuff next week, I hope!

Well, as I enjoyed both Grey Suit and Defoe so I, for one, will be pleased by their return.
Agree on the 86'ers though- hope there's a decent pay-off to all the build up.

buttonman, you echo my thoughts on the new vs old dichotomy. Pat Mills gets away with writing complete tosh on name value, not quality, and I'm fucking sick of it.

"Given it's generally accepted to be a weak line up that can't be a good thing."

How so? Not trying to be argumentative (no, *honestly!*), but I thought it was only Robo-Hunter that the majority appeared to be against? Grey Suit has some fans and some that loathe it, but I thought Defoe and Dredd were both considered by most to be pretty strong strips?

Best Robbie Morrison Dredd ever. Liked the old-school lawgiver on the first page.

"Not trying to be argumentative"

OUT
SIDE
NOW!

I know any strip has the odd supporter but I get a general air of malcontentment about the current roster. Put it this way : There is no strip that is undeniably brilliant and none that doesn't merit some critisism, even from the most partizan of reader.

Read my great review of last week's prog to learn more!

Link: Pecking at Prog 1548

Recently, for me, it's been a distinctively average line-up - with the exception of Dredd.

Dredd - great new angle on the character.

86ers - a Nort back story that's not bad to read - but I had to go and check what this last story was because I'd forgotten about it again.

Greysuit - I find this bland.  I can't make my mind up about the art - it's just sort of muddy.  As for the script - I've read it all before in various forms.  Evil scientists torture for fun - but then get their just deserts from the superhero with mystical powers.  All the psycho-babble about how science generates superhuman strength is just annoying.  Fuck me - I've had enough of all this "tortured beyond the pale" stuff from 2000AD writers.  As if Leatherjack wasn't bad enough.  Can't we just have someone who wants to get out (ie Halo Jones) or nuke their parents (ie DR & Quinch)?

Robohunter - oddly, I was just beginning to enjoy this for the first time since it came back in it's female incarnation.  The rambling, doesn't really matter storyline is a good cure for the dark, repetitive putrescence of Greysuit.  Still - fairly dull stuff.  I did really enjoy the vibrant colours on offer from the usually bland palette of, erm, the artist that took over from Gibson.  Sorry - I forget his name.

Medieval Weapons Catalogue (aka Defoe).  Nuff said. The art is the only saving grace in this otherwise turgid nonsense.  

Strongly researched period character #1: "Watch out Defoe - we're going to get killed by thousands of rampaging zombies.  By the way, let's also discuss my religious views as we exert ourselves beyond normal human endurance.

Defoe: "Never fear - I have this patented Da Vinci Anti-Zombie Tank capable of...[reading from manual whilst chopping up 500 zombies with the Anti-Zombie Combine Harvester from the previous week]...destroying exactly the amount of zombies that are endangering us."

etc.  (for weeks on end)

So, if they're all returning, then - damn.

C'mon now Funt, you've been warned about that moaning of yours!

I agree with Richard. I'm not a huge fan of Morrison's work on Dredd, but this one actually entertained. Maybe a bit too much narration, but apart from that, very good stuff.

And what can I say about Greysuit? Last two episodes were sort of interesting, what with Zil being in them. This week and every other week, just...bleh. Why a brand new character is introduced in the last episode I've no idea. I wonder if Mills does.

Story should have centered around Zil in my opinion. Far more potential in that character than the drab guy we were stuck with.

Zil!

***I liked the Dredd which was unusual for a Morrison one-off. No great surprises or consequences just a slice of life with an inevitable conclusion. Surprised that a mental can get through 15 years undetected at the Academy of Law. ***



Eh, Cal?

Sorry, buttonman - I meant to say:

Dredd - great!
86ers - cool!
Robohunter - gosh!
Greysuit - shock!
Defoe - awe!

Thanks, Tharg and chums!!!

"Eh, Cal?"

Is that a new version of One-Cal for the hard of hearing?!

I think Cal and for that matter Crazy Barry, Sladek, Grice etc. went mental whereas this juve was mental from day one and it slowly grew to the point where he went full blown postal.

If they knew he was damaged goods from day one you'd think the shrinks and psis would have tried to eradicate it before graduation, or if they couldn't can his ass.

Medieval Weapons Catalogue (aka Defoe). Nuff said. The art is the only saving grace in this otherwise turgid nonsense.

Strongly researched period character #1: "Watch out Defoe - we're going to get killed by thousands of rampaging zombies. By the way, let's also discuss my religious views as we exert ourselves beyond normal human endurance.

Defoe: "Never fear - I have this patented Da Vinci Anti-Zombie Tank capable of...[reading from manual whilst chopping up 500 zombies with the Anti-Zombie Combine Harvester from the previous week]...destroying exactly the amount of zombies that are endangering us."








Now that's a Hollywood pitch!
Pat, you hearing this?

funt, didn't you turn up at this messageboard as the Valiant Pat Mills Defender?

I said it last week and I'll say it again now.

CUNTS!

It might be irony.

---

I defended Mills against what I considered to be unfair accusations of misogyny.  I stand by my opinions there.  

As it is, I'm slagging off the quality of the (written) storytelling on Defoe and Greysuit.  I'm not slagging off Mills for any assumed personal beliefs.

The Cosh reminds me of someone...Cunt! Cunt!

The Cosh reminds me of someone...

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

Wait, there's a *third* artist on Robo-Hunter?  Who?

No its the same guy as last week

Button Man IV and Cabs, I think...?

Haven't got my pog yet, but dear god both Gray Suit and Defoe are coming back? Why?

 

Cliff Robinson needs to do more strip work. That was f**king beautiful.

Seconded, absolutely stunning. I love cliff's work these days. His style is just delightful and his storytelling impeccable.

Bolt-01

Postie: "I'm on strike."

Cosh: "Shut up! Cunt. You louse. You got some fuckin' neck. Strike? Fuck off, you're revolting.
Your fuckin' suntan, you're like leather. Like a leather man. You could make a fuckin' suitcase. You look like a fat crocodile, fat bastard. You look like fuckin' Idi Amin. State of you. You should be ashamed of yourself. Who d'you think you are? King of the castle? Cock of the walk? Oof! You think this is the Wheel of Fortune? You make your dough and fuck off? Thanks, Cosh. See you, Cosh. Off to Spain, Cosh. Fuck off, Cosh. Lie in your pool laughing at me, d'you think I'll have that? You think I'll have that, ya ponce? All right, I'll make it easy. God, you're fucking trying. Are you gonna do the job? It's not a difficult question. Yes or no?"

Postie: "Cosh..."

Cosh: "Say it."  

Postie: "No."

Cosh: "Yes. Fuck off, wanker, you're doin' it."

Got it today. Me thoughts:

Dredd: I really enjoyed this, particulalry how the last page mirrored the first. A great script with excellent (as ever) Robinson art. Coulda been a Wagner...

The rest: Goodbye (for a little while anyway) to bad rubbish.

I'm looking forward to next week's cover, that last page has me intrigued...

I've been pretty fortunate these last two weeks, I've found 2000AD on my mat every Monday.

Anyway...

Cover- Dramatic, but not really relevant to the story inside. Except perhaps in a metaphorical "He breaks through the barriers" way.

Judge Dredd- Nice one off story.
"QUIT HOWLING, CREEP, OR I'LL ADD NOISE POLLUTON TO JAYWALKING." Heh heh.

86ers- Finished before I expected, but it was a reasonable ending. Did anyone expect the Grendel to be defeated so easily though? Not that that's a bad thing, it added an element of humor. I wasn't keen on the whole "We reppelled the Nort raid" quick tie up though.

Greysuit- Not bad... but as others have said, why the sudden new character out of nowhere. Except to add a bit of love interest for the next story arc I suppose. Very hot girl though- the blue toned art does her justice. Overall I wasn't that fussed with this story and I'm in two minds about the story continuing. It did improve with time and this is an introductory arc though, so maybe it gets better.

Robohunter- again not too bad... although I can't help thinking her returning home is a bit of a plot hole (wouldn't the authorities go there?) And suddenly we finish this particular part of the arc? Seemed a bit short to me, but I don't dislike the strip like many seem to.

Defoe- Again a bit anticlimatic. Out of the two Mills strips I think I preferred this. It is equally as flawed in it's own way though mainly in it's lack of story exposition. I think the redeeming feature was it's just good period zombie mashing fun. Still not much resolution at the end however. I know they're setting up for the next arc, but it would have been nice to have been a bit more complete. Also at the end where Defoe is saved by Newton from hordes of zombies then suddenly... "Well the NEW MORAL ARMY had been defeated". When did that happen?

Still it was good fun nonsense.

Link: ,

I was a bit disappointed with Defoe - while it's continuing next year, the end of this arc seemed rushed.

They've had 10 issues of build up - then the zombie's are defeated by kicking Cromwells head off a pike.

A real anti-climax.

I can actually begin to understand Ben Kingsley's level of mind-boggling frustration and headlong rush towards violence.

The postie's been today and still there's no Prog. I hesitate to say CUNTS, but I feel they've left me no option.

Dredd was pretty good (okay it was fairly average) I'd kinda worked out that Dredd was going to end up shooting this guy from page two.

Of course in comparison to the unrelenting clobbers of the rest of the issue.

I'm sure there was a point in Pat Mills career when he understood the necessity for a story to have a beginning, a middle and an end, even stories which where part of some wider work. This is something that he has completely forgotten. At the moment we have Slaine so tied up in it's own convulted continuity to be incomprehensible. Savage mid way through some other book, Defoe starting another intermidable series of books, ditto with Graysuit. Obviously the worst is the ABC Warriors which reminds me of some old rock band with only two remaining original members out on a nostaglia tour playing the old hits one last time to pay the kids through school. Please make it stop.

Which brings me on to Robohunter. Why Tharg? Does Alan Grant have photo's of you doing something you shouldn't. This latest Robohunter thing is just painful. Mills is at least trying (but failing) to do something slightly different.

Rogue Trooper - I don't care. Rogue Trooper and his universe ceased being interesting the moment he caught the traitor general - which by my reckoning was about 20 years ago. And despite reboots, reimaginings, spin offs and multiple shark jumping later a version of it is still in 2000AD. Why?

This run of 2000AD is as bad as anyone I've seen in my time reading it.

No Huff prog, still I will not use that ugly word for a beautiful thang!


Thrilless huff

Wahey, another week another prog before the subbies!

My bad!

Cover : Meh
Dredd :Heh
86ers : Meh
Greysuit : Meh & Heh
Slade : Bleuch!!!
Defoe : Heh & Meh

Next week : Hell Yeah!

Way too many to be continued for my liking. It isn't even giving us a full chapter, its like reading half a story for two months.

Oh and I agree, get Cliff on Dredd more often. His art was a joy to see.

Where's my prog?! Got my Extreme Edition though, which is tiding me over.

Aha- the good news is it's arrived and been devoured.

Dredd - pretty entertaining one off. Lovely art.
86ers - Who? What? Why? I think I've got where (most of the time). The problem with this ensemble cast is that to me they all look and sound the same.
Greysuit - started off terribly but the last couple of episodes were okay. I'm be more than happy not to see this every again though.
Robo-hunter - This story started alright, but went off at a tangent and is now in France. Shouldn't she be getting revenge on the Five of Spades first? Laughed at the sidekick traps though.
Defoe - completely mental and readable but where was the real story arc in these 10 episodes? Did he kill Jack? Did he kill Cromwell? When did the army get defeated considering Defoe legged it? Would be more than happy to see this again.

Next week - Stone Island 2? Ugh.

Stone Island 2?

Le chemin de ma vie est répandu avec la merde de vache du propre troupeau satanique du diable!

I don't think Mandroid 2 is starting next week. Looks like a one off Dredd and double episodes of Stone Island and ABCs.

Next weeks cover will be interesting if, as i suspect, the one shown in this weeks preview is a zoomed in and cropped section of it.

Can only echo the opinions on Cliff Robinson's art-it is simply beautiful! I've always loved his work, but this is something else!
Get him on a multi-parter Thargy!

Suprised this week's Dredd is getting so much love as it's a great demonstration of Morrisn's three failings in his take on the character.

1): Every Dredd story has to be about some traumatised kid. Why? Why can't I have cyborgs or aliens? Y'know sci-fi in a sci-fi comic.

2): It's supposed to be a heart rending tale, but instead of showing us how the characters feel he tells us. How much actual dialogue is there? Barely any.

3): Dredd seems to work in a normal police precinct. Here one of the victims is refusing to press charges. Isn't that with-holding evidence? Also a cadet fight is not properly investigated or dealt with. Surely not.

For the first half of Dredd's life I thought he was an incredibly easy chracter to write for in an easy world to write about. And yet so many writers seem to have gotten it wrong on the tiniest details.

- Shouldn't the editor be checking for this kind of thing? Shouldn't the writers be (at least a little) familiar with the character? If not then hands off.

I didn't like it.

- Huey

Suprised this week's Dredd is getting so much love as it's a great demonstration of Morrisn's three failings in his take on the character.

1): Every Dredd story has to be about some traumatised kid. Why? Why can't I have cyborgs or aliens? Y'know sci-fi in a sci-fi comic.

2): It's supposed to be a heart rending tale, but instead of showing us how the characters feel he tells us. How much actual dialogue is there? Barely any.

3): Dredd seems to work in a normal police precinct. Here one of the victims is refusing to press charges. Isn't that with-holding evidence? Also a cadet fight is not properly investigated or dealt with. Surely not.

For the first half of Dredd's life I thought he was an incredibly easy chracter to write for in an easy world to write about. And yet so many writers seem to have gotten it wrong on the tiniest details.

- Shouldn't the editor be checking for this kind of thing? Shouldn't the writers be (at least a little) familiar with the character? If not then hands off.

I didn't like it.

- Huey

"Shouldn't the editor be checking for this kind of thing?"

Sadly, you are entirely right ... every editor dating back to the normally brutal Mr Bishop has seen fit to commission some pile of mawkish old shite masquerading as a Dredd script off the Morrison droid.

I don't understand it ... he's written loads of perfectly good stuff, but he can't write Dredd worth a damn.

Surely, every time Robbie Morrison turns in a script featuring orphans, or crack-babies, or weeping mothers, or whatever, the editor of the day should just print out another copy of Wagner's script to "Bury My Knee at Wounded Heart" and send it back to Morrison with a Post-It on the front saying 'Read this, then try again' ...?

Cheers

Jim

I agree with points two and three, two especially, although dialogue isn't visual either. I still found it enjoyable overall. I guess I'm not as nitpicky, although I have only been reading 2000AD seriously the last two years.

Cover: Shame about the generic subject, but this is is about as interesting as it possibly could be. Very Good Stuff.

Dredd: So Robbietastic its fucking unreal. I laughed at the last panel. Nice art though. Bad Stuff.

86ers: Wow, Rafe kills it with one punch (more or less). I bet that when this comes back I will have forgotten about this giant space thing. OK Stuff.

Greysuit: I bet when this comes back I'll have forgotten that he has a sidekick. Bad Stuff.

Robohunter: I bet when this comes back I'll have forgotten everything. And if Sam can't realise that calling anyone when she's on the run is a bad idea then I actively hope that she loses. Bad Stuff.

Defoe: I bet when this comes back I have forgotten that he isn't Torquemada. Good Stuff.


NNNNYYYYAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH.

The stuff about refusing to press charges in Dredd was such bullshit. Dredd is set in the future, but Robbie Morrison always fills it with present day attitudes. I quite liked some of the others he's written this year, but this one was lame. A few minor changes and it could have been a generic Batman or Punisher story. Utter knackers.

Utterly torn by the Dredd - abhored the script, adored the art.  Is there any way we could re-letter this story so that in turns out that the crazy Judge was being slowly rebuilt over many years into an exact copy of his Mad Scientist Father by nanobots that said-papa was incubating in the paralysed body of his mother, until interrupted by Dredd who was trying to sieze the tech for Justice Department's genetic-trooper project?  Well maybe not that crap either, but some storyline that did justice to the stunning tour-de-force artwork?

The '86ers just gets better and better as far as I'm concerned, and there's still the mystery of the Thing in the Pit to resolve...  More, soon, please.

Greysuit ended too abruptly, but was a good start.

Robohunter didn't end abruptly enough.

Defoe should never end, I love it that much!  Pat's best new creation in many a long day.

You know - I can't help thinking that a lot of people find out who is writing a strip first, which then puts them in a certain mind-set from their pre-conceived ideas of that writer when they eventually come and read the strip.

This can be particularly true of Pat Mills' efforts, but there are other writers (such as Morrison and even Spurrier)who are judged almost sub-consciously before their work is actually read. People are looking for their tell tale faults rather than first and foremost trying to enjoy the story. I know next to nothing about Morrison to be honest, but thought this story was fine, albeit with a couple of inconsistencies. I take it the Collected Robbie Morrison Dredd would be a repetitive tome?

Personally I read the strip and if I particularly enjoy it, look to see who wrote it.

I really enjoyed this weeks Dredd - art and script.    It was aa good self-contained story with a twist - perfect for a Dredd one-off.  

---

Robo-Hunter is horribly repetitive and follows this basic set-up without any kind of deviance:

1. Samantha gets involved in a get rich quick scheme.
2. It all goes horribly wrong.

Repeat ad infinitum.

As if that wasn't tedious enough, we even get told repeatedly that it's going to happen, as with this week's "I'm off to Paris on a get rich quick scheme - but I'm speaking to you from the future and it all goes horribly wrong" text.

Isn't this just lazy?  

It's another one of those strips where I just don't understand why it keeps coming back.  

::  the Collected Robbie Morrison Dredd

That's just not funny, man. *shudder*

:: Robo-Hunter [...] It's another one of those strips where I just
:: don't understand why it keeps coming back.

Mm. I think early Robo-Hunter is great, and I'm gutted the GN line is on hiatus, because I would have dearly loved to get that fourth book with the final episodes of the initial run. But this new Slade is just utter crap by comparison.

Haven't got this prog yet and about 8 weeks from it but I do quite like Morrisons Dredd, maybe a bit softer than the usual.  you got to hand it to Morrison, remember the Dredd from a couple of months ago about the Biographer wanting to write about Dredds life, I bet thats how he feels.

Cu Radbacker

You know - I can't help thinking that a lot of people find out who is writing a strip first, which then puts them in a certain mind-set from their pre-conceived ideas of that writer when they eventually come and read the strip.

For this very reason I try to avoid looking at the writer credits until the story is done - often necessary on Dredd with the Wagner/Rennie cloning experiment, but seldom necessary with Morrison.  It just leaps out at me.  

Again, and I'm sorry to keep banging on about this, I'm just not interested in reading stories about real-world domestic violence, drug abuse, rape etc. in my weekly escapist comic (I get plenty in the newspaper and the lives of people around me), unless they are parsed through a clever SF concept or satirical twist.  Hence my tongue-in-cheek alternative nanobot plot for this week's Dredd.

Previous attempts at 'serious' Dredds by Wagner including Full Mental Jacket, Sunday Night Fever, Cardboard City, Bury My Heart etc. all manage to say something and have an impact, but also include people in Rhino costumes, synchronised leapers and conveyor-belt recycling of corpses.  This week's Dredd could easily have been an episode of Law and Order or NYPD Blue:  young overzealous cop is former victim of domestic violence, goes over the edge, mentor has to shoot him.  Snore, I think there's a BSG repeat on the other channel...

And this is nothing against Morrison as a creator, who has produced some of the strongest 2000AD material of the past decade, including creating arguably the best new character since Halo Jones.  He just has a very strongly consistent and individual take on Dredd, and I don't like it.  At all.  This current story didn't deviate from that mould one iota.

As to Mills, some of his stuff is beyond reproach, some of his stuff is beyond belief, but you could never mistake his style for anyone else's.  

"You know - I can't help thinking that a lot of people find out who is writing a strip first, which then puts them in a certain mind-set from their pre-conceived ideas of that writer when they eventually come and read the strip."

Hey, on this one did we really need the credit box? the art was obviously Robinson and it was clearly a Morrison script from the first panel.

I've got no probs with Morrison. He done some decent work on Dante. Probem (IMHO) is that on Dredd he keeps returning to the same themes and they ( Again, IMO) don't translate into good stories.

Take this week's offering: if I wanted this type of story I'd read a Richard & Judy bookclub offering or watch Jeremy kyle. This isn' the shotglass of sci-fi rocket - fuel I should be expecting.

However: if it is going to be done, please do it right. This reads like a synopsis of a story. The character's inner journey shold be shown through his actions and his dialogue with other characters not through third-person narration. Morrison was also paired up with a top class artist who should have been able to convey a lot of the meaning.

Okay, poor example but: Imagine King Lear where instead of all the pages of dialogue Shakespeare had instead written:
" Here's King Lear, he's a tad upset now. Now he's a bit more angry... " and told the entire play that way wouldn't have been as effective.

I'm also thinking of those stories where I did connect with the characters and how they were feeling: "Bury my knee...", "America", the end of "Halo Jones book 3", "Mad George", that bit in Slaine the king where Niamh leaves him. Nowhere were there caption boxes telling me what to think. The stories didn't need them because they'd been well told in the first place.

Sorry.

Rant over.

That all said, I'd happily see Morrison's name in the credit box for Dredd again provided
- there were no kids in.
- Dredd and the judges acted the way that they should.

- Huey

Has anyone else, with a sub, still not received their prog?  Was there another postal strike in the UK, me I am based in Belgium but progs normally get here on Monday

Wagner/Rennie cloning experiment

I'm very surprised that Rennie's NYPD Blue generic American cop show in the future take is still being confused with Wagner.  If you want to know which one's which, just look for the great dangling plot threads and the "to be continued" or "...will return" sign hanging over most of the villains.

I'm very surprised that Rennie's NYPD Blue generic American cop show in the future take is still being confused with Wagner.

Well, touché.  There's no doubt that the Family Dredd / Obscure Element of Fiendish Plot by Future Major Villain themes scream Rennie, but you usually have to go quite far into the episode/story to encounter these - in the meantime Dredd always sounds convincing (to me) and acts appropriately, and at least the cop show is set in the future, and not just some jurisdiction with funny uniforms.  There's too much reliance on the supporting cast, and in establishing a wider Rennieverse of threats that develop over too long a (real time) period to be readily satisfying, but his Dredd seldom lets me down, and rarely comforts the afflicted.

Narration and dialogue are similar in some ways. I mean, they're both just exposition. They both reveal something through words what could have been shown visually. It's just that with dialogue at least there's interaction within panels. Whether or not something should be shown visually is another matter entirely.

An example could be the 'Royale with cheese' scene in Pulp Fiction, which Chris Vogler does a great piece about in 'The Writer's Journey'. It's not technically moving the story forward, but it is giving us an insight into the two characters and lets us empathise with them, so it is worth putting in there. To show that visually would have been shit.

Not all dialogue or narration is dead weight. Apocalypse Now didn't have narration in it's first incarnation. But noone knew what the fuck was going on, so they put one in...and still noone knew what the fuck was going on (heh, good film though).

I just think Morrison should be choosing more carefully what method he's using. For example, when Dredd bursts in at the end, why not have Dredd say that the real murderer has been caught? And then we could see how the protagonist has become a bit mental with him trying to explain himself.


I dunno, it's just a thought.

I wait until Thursday for my bloody prog and what do I get? A "threatened child" Dredd and four fairly unsatisfying "final" episodes. Not too satisfying, I'm afraid.

But I'll try to focus on the positive aspects.

The Dredd story had lovely art. It's a shame we don't see more of Cliff Robinson.
The story itself worked well enough, but it's so similar in style to past Morrison stories that it was hard to take it seriously. I take the point, though, on judging it on its writer rather than its content. I'm trying, here.
I did like the POV device - you slowly realise Klein's account of events is flawed.
I'd say it's an above-average Dredd story.

The end of the 86ers left me wanting more. There are mysteries to be solved, and I'm keen for the answers.
I have less interest in seeing more Greysuit or Robohunter, as they both lost my attention a little.
But I can't get enough of Defoe's wonderful nastiness! I grinned when he booted Cromwell's head off its pike.

Overall, this felt like a loose ends prog normally does. I ate a meal but I'm not as full as I'd like.
New stuff next week - whenever it arrives - will be most welcome.

- Trout

Not all dialogue or narration is dead weight. Apocalypse Now didn't have narration in it's first incarnation.

That's a very good point - sometimes narration is worth having.  I for one prefer the original voiceover version of Bladerunner (Deckard is just that much cooler, IMHO), even though I also appreciate the more finished Director's Cut.  Back in comicsland, despite having a masterful artist, Simping Detective makes excellent use of Chandlereque narration, and in Watchmen, a comics masterpiece otherwise devoid of narration, 'Tales of the Black Freighter' derives almost all of its power from its narration.  

Horses for courses.

In order for narration to really work well in any pictorial medium, it must be counterpoint to what is being shown by the pictures. It shouldn't be commentary.

It works well in Apocalypse Now because it's a train of thought narration that doesn't re-state what's happening on screen. It's recorded very close to the mic, as if it's in Martin Sheen's head, whereas in a film like Blade Runner, it had particularly bad narration because it was basically telling you what was happening on screen most of the time.

This was because the script was fucked up early on when Ridley Scott took the project on. Fancher, the original screenwriter, had wriiten the screenplay without narration but when Scott came onboard he asked that the film have a V.O. like a 40's film noir.

The film was shot with allowances in the new script for narration, meaning any on-screen exposition was lessened, however Scott changed his mind because the V.O. sounded crap in the edit, so he decided to remove it. The film was originally shown to test audiences without V.O. and they understood none of it, there was too little exposition on-screen because it was removed from the action on-screen. So they decided to put the V.O. back in for exposition, it was rewritten and recorded many times back & forth. The more Harrison read it, the more tired he grew of it, which is why a lot of it sounds so crap. It never seemed to work properly so they went with a mash up of the V.O. they had.



This, plus the divergent meanings of the script about Deckard being a replicant or not, which is another Scott retro-fit, are the main reasons Blade Runner ain't the masterpiece it wants to be. What was ultimately shot never truly worked because the original script was altered for a V.O. and story that never gelled, too may conflicting points. So we're left with an expensive and beautiful visual mood piece that is left to be dissected and analysed, through articles and commentaries, telling us what it "should" be about.

Fuck, that was tangent. Sorry.

Fuck, that was tangent. Sorry.

Fascinating, though!  

Only read the Robo Hunter strip so far - am I the only one enjoying this light relief? Everything else is usually pretty heavy so its nice to have a bit of 'fluff' every so often.
And I know people have reservations but I do think Alan Grant is actually - slowly but surely - going somewhere with this. We're just getting it in small 5 episode bursts. Back in ye olden days you would get a Robohunter story running continuously for up to 20 weeks, or more, so there was time to develop the story, and it didnt seem so random. I think there is an 'epic' story that Grant is trying to tell her, just being segmented a lot. The Casino Royal story was a set-up to Sam being framed by the 5 of Spades and getting sent to jail. Then we have I, Jailbird which shows what happens in jail and sets her off on a mission to France, while introducing the Gerald character. Next we will probably get another 5 episode chunk that shows what happens in France before the story line somehow ties back into the 5 of spades coming back. Then maybe another 5 episode story showing Sam going after that little pest. Although I wouldnt mind if they kept it running a bit longer than that before getting back to the Five of Spades.

In any case, I think the next segment should be more fun and more like the 'good old days'. Theres bound to be lots of weird robot type things in this France of the future, which I dont believe Alan Grant has ever done in the strip. Plenty of stuff to poke fun at, so Im expecting some kooky , off the wall stuff, like from back in the old Rule Brittania days. I just hope Ian Gibson is back in the fold by then, because though I dont mind Williams, only Gibson can do the robots in this story justice.

Anyway, maybe Im just a nut, but Im looking forward to the next installment!!

Off to read the rest now!

Van Dom - I like the cut of your jib.

bound to be lots of weird robot type things in this France of the future

That sounds good to me!

- Trout Goonie Goonie Trout

"France of the future, which I don't believe Alan Grant has ever done in the strip."

I'm pretty sure I remember a French robot in the original series, with a French accent, funny hat and garlic around his neck. Can't recall which exact story though.

Van Dom - I wish your predictions were true, but there's been no evidence so far of any aspects of the "good old days" of Robo-Hunter.  We wait for months between instalments (because that's the modern way of doing 2000AD) so that we could care less about what we vaguely remember of the plot, then we get the new minimalist versions of what were once vibrant, exciting creators (now in the meandering river plain aspects of their lives) and - well, it's just all a bit bloody tedious.

Still, at least someone's enjoying it.

But - look at this cover, which shows the Robo-World collectable poster (circa p283) and then compare the rich madness of it with the tame, dull, banal, driftwood that we're being served up with now:

So why do you give a toss if he likes the new Robo-Hunteress? Let him enjoy it if he wants to, you miserable git!

:-P

Fuck off, negativity police!

;)

Watch it, sunshine, or you'll be gettin' yerself in a boatload of Barney Rubble for wagglin' your negative aris in front of the cozzers!

I don't mind the new Robohunter either (although the last snippet wasn't brilliant in terms of story it was fun). That being said, I've only been reading 2000AD for a couple of months so I haven't read any of the original Robohunter stories. (I've seen the graphic novels advertised, but I've got other priorities at the moment...)

Just a quick question- I noticed Brit-cit mentioned in one of the descriptions of one of the Robohunter novels. Are these stories supposed to happen in the same universe as Dredd? I figured it was a whole other universe altogether, what with robots having such a prominent role and all, but I suppose it could be another time period.

It's a different universe.  

---

However, there's an utter nutter (meant in a nice way) around these parts who's trying to join everything up into a single continuity, so he might say different.

Am I the only sub still to get his copy of this prog?

Am I the only sub still to get his copy of this prog?

Well y'see, the bottom of the sea is outside the postal service's jurisdiction....

'Sub' get it? Tee hee.

*Ducks the flying torpedoes of the bad joke police*

Actually if you're still waiting maybe you should contact drop an email/call someone (I'm sure theres an address A link or contact number on this site...).

Also you might want to check it wasn't returned to the local depot while you were out. (I doubt that would be the case though as that's usually for signed parcels and 2000AD usually comes by letter post. I have had that happen with comics I bought from Ebayers though. Signed parcel for a comic. Please.)

"However, there's an utter nutter (meant in a nice way) around these parts who's trying to join everything up into a single continuity, so he might say different."

He certainly does say different. That said, he doesn't try to tie everything into continuity, just classic 2000AD series that have clear and obvious links to Judge Dredd. In the case of Robo-Hunter, an undeniable classic, that connection is Brit-Cit.

Robo-Hunter kicks into the timeline in 2140 - plenty of time for the Brit-Cit judge system to be replaced (or modified).

Regards

Robin

Am I the only sub still to get his copy of this prog?

No you are not. And now I haven't got 1550 either.

Mine finally turned up today.

DREDD was OK with lovely art. More Robinson please.

GREYSUIT is just silly now.

DEFOE tasks me. Sometimes I enjoy it's dense wordiness and other times I think stop waving your research in my face and give me a story.

86ers - disappointing half ending but enjoyable enough half tale.

ROBOHUNTER - utterly dull. I quite like Ant Wills art but this has got to be some of the lamest script and story produced in a while. Shame.

Morrison Dredd = Cathy and Claire 2129

Robo-Hunter kicks into the timeline in 2140 - plenty of time for the Brit-Cit judge system to be replaced (or modified).

And just before it gets nuked to rubble in 2150?  Doesn't Robohunter (Original Sequence) take place over a lot longer than a decade, what with Sam ageing (dis)gracefully on Dunhuntin in Sam's Last Case?  

***Robo-Hunter kicks into the timeline in 2140 - plenty of time for the Brit-Cit judge system to be replaced (or modified).***

"And just before it gets nuked to rubble in 2150? Doesn't Robohunter (Original Sequence) take place over a lot longer than a decade, what with Sam ageing (dis)gracefully on Dunhuntin in Sam's Last Case?"

SPOILERS.........




'Fraid not. 'The Slaying of Slade' takes place in 2147, as show on Slade's tombstone on the series logo (he was born in 2080 for those interested). At the end of that story, Sam finds himself richer by the tune of 24 billion credits. At this point he retires to the Tahiti Pleasure Pavilion.

In 'Sam Slade's Final Case' we discover that Sam has remained in Tahiti for 51 years! (It's now 2198 for those keeping score.) He returns in 'Farewell My Billions', in which he discovers that Hoagy and Stogie have pinched his money). I read FMB years ago in borrowed progs, and as yet it's never been reprinted, so I don't have the details. I don't know if it's explictly stated that he returns to Brit-Cit or not - I think it's more like the current Slade stories, a sort of generic european mega-city.

So, the upshot is, Sam leaves Brit-Cit about three years before the Great War of 2150, and doesn't become active again until a couple of decades after Alpha's death.

Regards

Robin

Robin, you are a freak of nature.  And I mean that in an admiring sort of way.  

So Sam was born just a decade after the Atomic War of 2070, was about 20 years younger than Dredd, survived the War of 2150 (in Tahiti!) and probably lived into the 23rd century, before losing his head Futurama-style (where we might assume the current storyline is set - note I don't concern myself with the Dark Times).   Even allowing for the Verdus trip, Sam Scumm and various Time-stretcher shenannigans, that's pretty impressive!

If you like I could dig out Farewell my Billions (great art, IIRC), and check the details, but I think you're right - in fact, it may have even have been New York rather than Brit Cit that he returned to.  I was sure that Sam spent much of those decades on his yacht Dunhuntin (name stuck in the noggin), but Tahiti certainly sounds more plausible.    

In Farewell, My Billions, Sam has spent two years in the "health farm", which would place the year at 2200 (according to what you said).  However, he also states that it's been 50 years since he last wore his Robo-Hunter uniform.

He then heads to New York, stating that it's been 50 years since he was last there.  

He then tracks Hoagy and Stogie to Sin City, near Tahiti, before eventually returning to his old offices in Manhatten and selling them for cash.

And that's where we last saw Sam prior to the new Samantha Slade series.  

---

(Unless you count the other Robo-Hunter stories, which you just can't.)

"I was sure that Sam spent much of those decades on his yacht Dunhuntin (name stuck in the noggin), but Tahiti certainly sounds more plausible."

Well, the S.S Dunhuntin is seen in 'Sam Slade's Last Case', so it's probably fair to say he spent that time cruising around the place. See, we're both right!

Regards

Robin

"In Farewell, My Billions, Sam has spent two years in the "health farm", which would place the year at 2200 (according to what you said). However, he also states that it's been 50 years since he last wore his Robo-Hunter uniform."

I'd say he's rounding to the nearest half century, but then I would say that, wouldn't I? ;)

"He then heads to New York, stating that it's been 50 years since he was last there. He then tracks Hoagy and Stogie to Sin City, near Tahiti, before eventually returning to his old offices in Manhatten and selling them for cash.
And that's where we last saw Sam prior to the new Samantha Slade series."

Sin City? Okay, it's not an original name, but it's another potential link to Dredd's world, especially for sad gits like me. (Along with Umpty Candy in 'Verdus.')

The obvious question arises, why does Slade talk of Manhatten and New York rather than Mega-City One? The simplest answer is that times change and there'a fashion for using the old names. Alternatively, maybe when Slade was a kid in the 2080s they still hadn't got round to dividing MC1 into sectors and the original names were still in use. When Slade uses the old names in FMB, he's being nostalgic, perhaps.

Of course, I don't think it's ever said that Slade starts out in MC1 - he just refers to "working megacity" in 'Verdus'. In 'Day of the Droids' he refers to 'the city'. IN this city there are mayors and councillors and police (attractive female ones - it's Gibson, after all - a bit like Judges) and police chiefs. It doesn't sound too much like MC1, but then we are talking about 2140 - who knows what Dredd, Rico and Beeny will do to the city in the next decade? Also, maybe Slade's megacity represents the future of MC2 or the vague euro-cit I've suggested. And that would not have stopped Slade maintaining an MC1 office, too - hell, there'd be enough work for him.

"(Unless you count the other Robo-Hunter stories, which you just can't.)"

Good grief, no! There are limits even to my madness.

Regards

Robin

Cliff Robinson? Top class.

Mk 1 Lawgiver vs Mk 2? Priceless.

The Noo Yoik versus MC-1 issue isn't a biggie - no-one in Strontium Dog refers to Brit Cit any more (it's the Greater London Crater, unless I'm mistaken...). Maybe the days of the Mega-Cities are over  by 2140- they certainly are by 2150.  Awwwgh, now you've got me doing it.

"The Noo Yoik versus MC-1 issue isn't a biggie - no-one in Strontium Dog refers to Brit Cit any more (it's the Greater London Crater, unless I'm mistaken...)."

It's easy to argue that Greater London was a designated sector of Brit-Cit, so that would work fine, too.

"Maybe the days of the Mega-Cities are over by 2140- they certainly are by 2150."

I was going to say that I think the mega-cities still exist after 2150, but you could be right. When the Great War is described in 'Portrait of a Mutant' it says that there has never been another war like it, and given the impact of the Great Atom War and Judgement Day it must have been unbelievably destructive. I suppose it is possible that the great mega-cities are transformed.

Incidentally, I forgot that MC2 was destroyed during Judgement Day - maybe it could be recontructed and provide the sort of city we see in 'Day of the Droids'.

"Awwwgh, now you've got me doing it."

Fun, isn't it?

You know, a lot of writers complain that tying series together and sticking to continuity limits their ability to be creative. I don't buy that at all. I see the combined series and the timeline they create as a source of interesting questions. The answers will be stories (how good or bad depends on the writer).

Regards

Robin

"Maybe the days of the Mega-Cities are over by 2140- they certainly are by 2150."


So we've only 21 years left of Dredd stories, by which time he'll be around 90.

When the Great War is described in 'Portrait of a Mutant' it says that there has never been another war like it, and given the impact of the Great Atom War and Judgement Day it must have been unbelievably destructive.

The Great War of the mid-22nd century certainly buggered things up climate-wise - look at Antartica in Outlaw, compared to the relativley normal polar conditions of the early-22nd seen in Dredd and its spinoffs.  What larks.

"You know, a lot of writers complain that tying series together and sticking to continuity limits their ability to be creative. I don't buy that at all. I see the combined series and the timeline they create as a source of interesting questions. The answers will be stories (how good or bad depends on the writer)."

Very well put.

It could also be that the writer is less caring about his research and keener to bash out his next pay cheque. I wouldn't say it's the case with Pat who is very protective of his 'universe' but it's often the fans care more than the creator.

I was watching 'Cruise of the Gods' with Steve Coogan  the other day and there is a funny scene where David Walliams explains the origins of the character names in 'The Children of Castor'. After explaining about the fusion of myths, latin and other gubbins he's corrected by the writer who says they are all actually anagrams of curries.

If the story is good and stands up on its own merits I'm happy to ignore any time line slip up, regarding them as differnt time streams or something.