My God's bigger than your God!

[darnmarr]

There are some people with really tough situations, experiences and crap to deal with in life, who I see doing really good things for others while hanging on to the idea that all the crap they're wading through now will be plus points for them when 'the game gets to the second level', and I while they improve life for others -have no compuction to disabuse them of that idea.
In a way, it would be nice if they're right. It would be certainly more 'fair' than the universe as I percieve it: but just because it's a nice idea doesn't make it truth, I cant believe it myself, but as it means nothing to me--- I usually avoid this line of conversation in order not to alienate people who I'm glad are around.

I guess what I'm saying is: a homophobe aligned-to-a-bronze-age-deity- who runs a soup kitchen, runs a soup kitchen.
A more enlightened and educated scientically-minded and tolerant person who doesn't run a soup-kitchen, doesn't run a soup kitchen.
And the people who attend are there for the soup.

[The Prodigal]

I'm with Jayzus B Christ block on this (and that's a bizarre thing to say in the context of the debate!)

an atheist may step back and let the rest of 'em argue as they will; but there IS a role for the anti-theist in the world - the person  who says that religion should have no place in politics and fights for that principle against hardcore (and sometimes violent) opposition; someone that actively fights for the supremacy of reason over superstition. You may not agree with that secularist viewpoint, but its just as reasonable as the 20,500 Christian missionaries there are today, without even mentioning other religions that impinge on people's basic life, behaviour and human rights..

Dan it may or may not interest you to know that there is a Christian voice that is vigorously secularist, decidingly anti-theocracy and which sees any attempt to mix faith and state politics as a very, very toxic mix to be avoided at all costs. Indeed it would see it as the antithesis of what Jesus actually taught.

When I look at the history of that mix and see its continuing outworkings I shudder. I also challenge it any chance that I get.

The Christian missionary thing-even there you might find that what you say resonates far more strongly than you might suspect at least in certain quarters.

[Jim_Campbell]

Joking aside, one of JC's better ideas was hate the sin, love the sinner

That wasn't me. I say: nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

What?!

Cheers

Jim

[The Prodigal]

Joking aside, one of JC's better ideas was hate the sin, love the sinner

That wasn't me. I say: nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

What?!

Cheers

Jim

If you are about to be decapitated by said sinner then it has to be said that Jim's more robust approach has much to commend it.

Wait did you say nuke?

[The Sherman Kid]

This was in my Facebook the other day :



Can someone more motivated than me research it and let me know if it's true? Are we in a 'Matrix' style cycle where stuff keeps reloading every few years? To be clear, I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me.

This was described in the film RELIGULOUS with Bill Maher, which I would recommend ,which challenges religious belief. I believe it is true, lots of stories are simply recycled old ones -another famous example is Noah's tale and The Garden of Eden fable being taken from Gilgamesh  (a real-life Mesopatamian King) who spawned the poem The Epic  of Gilgamesh.

Lots of things baffle me about people who believe ,especially the intelligent ones. Not just what they actually believe in (which varies from one to another, but all make no sense to me whatsoever), but the context.

They KNOW they are and have been lots of other religions worshipping anything from trees, rocks and the sun ,never mind historical and/or mythical figures. They also know many people through the ages couldn't read ,write, or be aware of what they themselves worship and that modern man 'US' existed for 100,000's of years before Abraham showed up, let alone Jesus or Mohammed

So my point is this -what is the point at all in believing ? Do they believe everyone above is damned for picking the wrong one or being ignorant of it YES/NO
If Yes-well thats a very cruel ,unfair and sadistic deity you believe in.
If No- then what does it matter?

The above also applies to those aware but not convinced their particular and/or any religion is right.

[NapalmKev]

So my point is this -what is the point at all in believing ? Do they believe everyone above is damned for picking the wrong one or being ignorant of it YES/NO
If Yes-well thats a very cruel ,unfair and sadistic deity you believe in.
If No- then what does it matter?

The above also applies to those aware but not convinced their particular and/or any religion is right.

I used to think to myself 'how can people believe this' when it came to matters of Religion but it's no different than people who devote their lives to Scientific Endeavors in the sense that, ultimately, it all centers around the Human desire 'to know' just what the hell is going on.

I myself am an atheist who is deeply into science, politics, even Religion to a certain extent. Human existence has largely been centered around the worship of one deity or another and has helped shape our society (for better or worse)

Cheers 

[The Prodigal]

This was in my Facebook the other day :



Can someone more motivated than me research it and let me know if it's true? Are we in a 'Matrix' style cycle where stuff keeps reloading every few years? To be clear, I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me.

This was described in the film RELIGULOUS with Bill Maher, which I would recommend ,which challenges religious belief. I believe it is true, lots of stories are simply recycled old ones -another famous example is Noah's tale and The Garden of Eden fable being taken from Gilgamesh  (a real-life Mesopatamian King) who spawned the poem The Epic  of Gilgamesh.

Lots of things baffle me about people who believe ,especially the intelligent ones. Not just what they actually believe in (which varies from one to another, but all make no sense to me whatsoever), but the context.

They KNOW they are and have been lots of other religions worshipping anything from trees, rocks and the sun ,never mind historical and/or mythical figures. They also know many people through the ages couldn't read ,write, or be aware of what they themselves worship and that modern man 'US' existed for 100,000's of years before Abraham showed up, let alone Jesus or Mohammed

So my point is this -what is the point at all in believing ? Do they believe everyone above is damned for picking the wrong one or being ignorant of it YES/NO
If Yes-well thats a very cruel ,unfair and sadistic deity you believe in.
If No- then what does it matter?

The above also applies to those aware but not convinced their particular and/or any religion is right.

Your key questionSherman for me pivots around my own approach to faith. I don't believe because I want a celestial pay off. Your question seems to pivot on that approach if I understand it correctly.

I essentially want to consider if there is a God and if so what can I know about him. Is he worth trying to get to "know" (and yeah i know I can't meet over a coffeee) outside of any self serving theologies as regards who is supposedly in or out?

That might be as clear as mud as I read back on it.

[TordelBack]

I guess what I'm saying is: a homophobe aligned-to-a-bronze-age-deity- who runs a soup kitchen, runs a soup kitchen.
A more enlightened and educated scientically-minded and tolerant person who doesn't run a soup-kitchen, doesn't run a soup kitchen.
And the people who attend are there for the soup.

Nicely put, Darnmarr. 

Reminds me of that merciless cunt the Rev. Dallas who went to Connemara during the Great Hunger of the late 1840's and traded soup for conversions, but also of the Religious Society of Friends who lent money (interest free, no strings) to the men of the Arklow fishery to get their boats and nets out of hock after the herring shoals failed to materialise in those same terrible years, saving countless livelihoods and probably lives in the process. 

I'd say "I'm fightin' with Quaker block", but, y'know...

[The Prodigal]

I guess what I'm saying is: a homophobe aligned-to-a-bronze-age-deity- who runs a soup kitchen, runs a soup kitchen.
A more enlightened and educated scientically-minded and tolerant person who doesn't run a soup-kitchen, doesn't run a soup kitchen.
And the people who attend are there for the soup.

Nicely put, Darnmarr. 

Reminds me of that merciless cunt the Rev. Dallas who went to Connemara during the Great Hunger of the late 1840's and traded soup for conversions, but also of the Religious Society of Friends who lent money (interest free, no strings) to the men of the Arklow fishery to get their boats and nets out of hock after the herring shoals failed to materialise in those same terrible years, saving countless livelihoods and probably lives in the process. 

I'd say "I'm fightin' with Quaker block", but, y'know...

What a supreme juxtaposition Tordelback.

[JOE SOAP]

I'd say "I'm fightin' with Quaker block", but, y'know...

The history of Quakers in Ireland exists in a sadly half-forgotten state.

[The Sherman Kid]

No Prodigal that wasn't the point I was making.

If you deem those who -haven't heard of/pray to other dieties/or are not convinced of God existence are all NOT damned and do indeed lead worthy lives -then what does it matter if you believe or not (I wasn't thinking of the celestial reward bit)?

Does God have an ego that needs worshiping/having things built for him?
Does he help you out if you pray (thus completely negating the concept of free will)?

[TordelBack]

The history of Quakers in Ireland exists in a sadly half-forgotten state.

Funnily enough I've been doing a fair bit of reading about Irish Quakers lately, some very interesting characters there - for example the Ellis family, landlords of Letterfrack, who at the tail-end of the Famine started paying their land labourers 30% over the going rate because they believed they needed to stand with their neighbours in adversity, with the result that their estate and its village thrived when the tenants of their 'fiscally-prudent' contemporaries were still mired in post-apocalyptic shite, and their vast holdings on the rapid and inevitable slide towards the Encumbered Estates Court.

Not uncoincidental to my interest, my Great Aunt, a truly wonderful woman (who I named my daughter after in a vague hope something would rub off), threw her lot in with the Quakers late in life and thoroughly enjoyed herself in their company.  As a result I can at least report that they do very entertaining funerals.

[JOE SOAP]

Decent article here in d'Times:


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0302/1224312630341.html


One of my work-mates comes from Quaker stock- one of the most decent-skins I've ever known.

[The Prodigal]

The history of Quakers in Ireland exists in a sadly half-forgotten state.

Funnily enough I've been doing a fair bit of reading about Irish Quakers lately, some very interesting characters there - for example the Ellis family, landlords of Letterfrack, who at the tail-end of the Famine started paying their land labourers 30% over the going rate because they believed they needed to stand with their neighbours in adversity, with the result that their estate and its village thrived when the tenants of their 'fiscally-prudent' contemporaries were still mired in post-apocalyptic shite, and their vast holdings on the rapid and inevitable slide towards the Encumbered Estates Court.

Not uncoincidental to my interest, my Great Aunt, a truly wonderful woman (who I named my daughter after in a vague hope something would rub off), threw her lot in with the Quakers late in life and thoroughly enjoyed herself in their company.  As a result I can at least report that they do very entertaining funerals.

TordelBack much of my beliefs are drawn from the anabaptist traditions of folk like the quakers. Having said that I have yet to master the discipline of not laughing like a loon when one of them falls asleep and snores loudly during one of their often silent services.

[The Prodigal]

Decent article here in d'Times:


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0302/1224312630341.html


One of my work-mates comes from Quaker stock- one of the most decent-skins I've ever known.

I have never read that Joe. That's a very good article.