RIPs

[Frank]

Nikita Engels (after a fashion.)

I assumed that was a myth, although the jokes which reference his one man war seem to rely on a deliberate misunderstanding of his reasons for continuing to fight. It doesn't sound as if he was unaware the war was over as much as he refused to surrender without a direct order from the same source which issued his original instructions.

[Emp]

That or he was just a header

[Jo-L]

Nikita Engels (after a fashion.)

I assumed that was a myth, although the jokes which reference his one man war seem to rely on a deliberate misunderstanding of his reasons for continuing to fight. It doesn't sound as if he was unaware the war was over as much as he refused to surrender without a direct order from the same source which issued his original instructions.

I kind of assumed that these types of fellas were a myth also... with the exception of that one episode of the first season of Gilligan's Island (did you get that over there in the UK?).  I do find it a little troubling that the Japanese hold him out as a hero... maybe for the sheer grit of the situation?

[COMMANDO FORCES]

It's a different way of living as the culture of the Japanese people believe in honour very highly. The Emperor was everything to him and following orders actually meant something.

I've read about this gentleman and his fellow compatriots over the years and it is truly astounding and you can see his final surrender on youtube, as it was filmed.

[Steve Green]

And made a guest appearance battling MACH 1...

[Hawkmumbler]

And made a guest appearance battling MACH 1...

Was waiting for this. 

[Spikes]

I do find it a little troubling that the Japanese hold him out as a hero...

Maybe they truly believe they didn't do anything wrong during this period of their history....

[I, Cosh]

I do find it a little troubling that the Japanese hold him out as a hero...

Maybe they truly believe they didn't do anything wrong during this period of their history....

Maybe this isn't the place for it, but I'm going to have to pick you up on this. First, it's possible you're looking at a different source from me, in which case I apologise and would ask you to share it.

The article linked absolutely does not say that the Japanese hold him out as a hero. What it does say is

Correspondents say he was greeted as a hero on his return to Japan.

In 1974. Thirty years ago. And less than thirty since the end of the war. 

There are pretty big shifts in attitudes and beliefs in thirty years. Particularly when you consider that a reaction like that implied here is intimately connected to something which the majority of people alive at the time would have lived through. Something which isn't the case today.

Whatever the actual rights and wrongs and morality and questionable judgement involved, I don't even think it's too difficult to understand that some people who had lived through the utter humiliation of the Japanese state and the post-war years would see this as something to shout about, even if (especially because?) just as something symbolic and quixotic.

It's not a million miles from the concepts of Ostalgia and "at least you knew where you were with the Krays."

[Jo-L]

I thought about the whole thing some more, and realized that of course he was a national hero.  Regardless of who was right and who was wrong in that conflict, he was doing what he did because he believed was fighting for his country.

I don't agree with every conflict that my country gets involved with, but any soldier who did this for me and my homeland is a hero in my book.

[Professor Bear]

There are pretty big shifts in attitudes and beliefs in thirty years. Particularly when you consider that a reaction like that implied here is intimately connected to something which the majority of people alive at the time would have lived through. Something which isn't the case today.

Sadly, there are rightwing nutters in Japan who don't think what Japan did was wrong during the war years, possibly because they were at war and viewed themselves as a martial society, though also possibly because they're sick of being told about something that happened before they were born but which they must atone for, and that the war generation was incapable of committing honorable or even heroic acts.

[TordelBack]

Anyone from anywhere is quite capable of romanticising and whitewashing the past, even when any rational examination shows nothing but shit on everyone's hands.  The past was crap, and its most important lesson is don't do it again.  The most remarkable thing about human history is that any good stuff actually happened amongst all the horror and misery.

And I speak as someone who has devoted most of his life to preserving and studying bits of it.

[I, Cosh]

There are pretty big shifts in attitudes and beliefs in thirty years. Particularly when you consider that a reaction like that implied here is intimately connected to something which the majority of people alive at the time would have lived through. Something which isn't the case today.

Sadly, there are rightwing nutters in Japan who don't think what Japan did was wrong during the war years, possibly because they were at war and viewed themselves as a martial society, though also possibly because they're sick of being told about something that happened before they were born but which they must atone for, and that the war generation was incapable of committing honorable or even heroic acts.

I don't doubt it. I was more taking issue with the idea that the nation as a whole held the same view and that had gone unchanged over the last thirty years and the natural shift in generational views as those who lived through the war, the occupation and the post-war settlement become the minority. It's a bit like saying Bobby Sands is a hero of the Irish people: undoubtedly true for some people at some point but hardly representative of everybody, now.

Edited to add: Oh yeah, or what TB said.

[JOE SOAP]

I'm sure it works in a similar way to people still believing the Yanks were justified in dropping 2 nukes on 2 cities.

[Trout]

Anyone from anywhere is quite capable of romanticising and whitewashing the past, even when any rational examination shows nothing but shit on everyone's hands.  The past was crap, and its most important lesson is don't do it again.  The most remarkable thing about human history is that any good stuff actually happened amongst all the horror and misery.

And I speak as someone who has devoted most of his life to preserving and studying bits of it.

Yes, that.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with some of the 1914 "celebrations" I've been reading about. Careful, now.

[Bat King]

Before condemning another country look to your own... Mine has an atrocious track record of dealing with other peoples.

Just to name a few:

We took 'civilization' to the Indian Sub-Continent, where they already had a civilization that had more written history than ours. Ditto the Orient. Oh, and we re-wrote African history to remove those awkward ancient cities.

We profited from the slave trade upon which the USA was built. Then when we outlawed it we claimed the moral high ground.

We created Concentration Camps in South Africa during the Boer War. Before that we ripped up agreements with the Zulu because they had land we found out had natural resources we wanted.

I'll leave it in the 19th Century but we did some pretty bad things in the 20th Century. And have you seen the state of the world in the 21st? We drew the maps in India, Palestine & Israel, Iraq and elsewhere - our map drawing skills... We shaped the modern mess.

Oh all right... more of what we've done - compulsory deportation of British 'orphans' in the 1970s to Canada and Australia. That was a pretty big low point I think.

And I'm a patriot despite all this... Please, be careful when condemning others.

(Joe Soap's accurate comment doesn't count in my criticism. He is more or less saying 'look at ourselves' there even though he isn't from the US and nor am I)