The Political Thread

[Grugz]

surely jews muslims etc aren't a "race" they  are a religion .it does baffle me how some people get the two mixed up and I for one have never come across any anti semetism in my life so I don't know where these polls get there information

[Jim_Campbell]

Wow.

[TordelBack]

I think you've been lucky with the company you keep, Mogzilla. I went to school in the closest thing Ireland has to a Jewish ghetto so had plenty of Jewish friends, and the frequent abuse they had to put up with was frightening. Leaving that environment I found myself around people who didn't know (that they knew) any Jews, and the things that otherwise perfectly decent people would come out with as supposed facts and racist assumptions were even worse. The dearly-held stereotypes of sly, avaricious, innately and underhandedly wealthy, secretive and manipulative are alive and well, right on up to 'they killed our Lord', 'Zionist banking cabal' and 'then there's the thing about the babies'. Now I appreciate that I grew up in a backward religious monoculture, but I doubt these attitudes were unique, or have magically disappeared.

Also, though it's a moot point, 'Semitic' is a racial description.

[Old Tankie]

Hi Grugz, on many occasions we don't use language in a literal sense, do we, but we still know what it means.  For example, if a white person of one nationality insults a white person of a different nationality, based on their nationality, we call that racism, when, if you want to be literal, they've insulted their own race.

The word anti-Semitic, in it's modern use, is used to describe only Jews, but it's original use was very different.  Literally, a Semite is a member of any race supposed to be descended from Shem (Gen x. 21 foll.) including especially the Hebrews, Arameans, Phoenicians, Arabs, and Assyrians.

Language evolves.  And in the modern world we know what racism and anti-Semitism is don't we, and there's plenty of it out there.

[Theblazeuk]

I think the term anti-semitism has become so diluted by overuse that its truly sad. Glimpsing the behemoth of the PR machine behind most uses of this word and its network of volunteer operatives is also truly sad.

I have witnessed far less anti-semitism than I have racism of all other forms, none of which have been lucky enough to deserve their own special sub-label.

I have yet to see any evidence of even a second-hand nature that anti-semitism is so ingrained in western Europe that people don't even realise it. I think that's absolute bollocks frankly.

[maryanddavid]

Now I appreciate that I grew up in a backward religious monoculture,

Come out west! I honestly can say I have never really heard any anti Jewish sentiment, it really is an unknown factor out here, plenty of other casual racism to pick from, they are well down the pecking order.
At work today we had a conversation about religion, most were shocked to hear that Muslims were not pagans, and follow the teachings of Moses and Jesus as Prophets (as I understand it anyway), and that 'their God' was 'our God'.

[Old Tankie]

With respect, sir, are you Jewish?  And if you're not, how do you know how much anti-Semitism is out there?  No need for the government funded guards at Jewish schools in the UK then, waste of public money?

You think historically the Jews have been lucky?  Well, that's a new one on me.

[Professor Bear]

I always assumed stereotypes about Jews were deliberately perpetuated: an entire section of the population controlling all the riches and exploiting the poor?  I imagine there's a certain political and social class that finds that scapegoat comes in real handy.

The Pub Landlord has just announced he's standing against Farage in the General Election. Sometimes I love this country.

The real beauty of this is that I've long suspected more than a few of his targets don't grasp the point of Al Murray's comedy at all, and some may actually vote for him.

Don't forget that UKIP just as likely only get votes because they're the protest option since the LibDems sold everyone down the river, and a high-profile joke candidate will most likely siphon off UKIP "support."
Farage has already shown he's pretty useless against comedians even if they're gormless twats, so it'll be interesting to see if there's any meat on this campaign, as it's often overlooked that Murray is a lot smarter than his public persona would suggest - the inverse of Farage, if you will.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Now I appreciate that I grew up in a backward religious monoculture,

Come out west! I honestly can say I have never really heard any anti Jewish sentiment, it really is an unknown factor out here, plenty of other casual racism to pick from, they are well down the pecking order.
At work today we had a conversation about religion, most were shocked to hear that Muslims were not pagans, and follow the teachings of Moses and Jesus as Prophets (as I understand it anyway), and that 'their God' was 'our God'.

To be fair, I've only met two Irish Jews in my life - one was a manager in a call centre where I used to work (a lovely lady who I believe converted in order to marry) while the other is Benjamin Loose, the bassist in the my favourite Irish band, Republic of Loose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Loose).  In any case, we haven't exactly covered ourselves in glory when it came to our treatment of Jewish people in the past: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Boycott

[JayzusB.Christ]

Sorry about the double post, but I thought I'd better add that I may well have met plenty of Irish Jews. 

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

To be fair, I've only met two Irish Jews in my life

Were they Catholic Jews or Protestant Jews?

I'd like to pretend that we in The North are to preoccupied with sectarianism to be anti-semitic, but the secterian wans have chosen sides in the Israeli -Palestine conflict. It's fertile soil for over-ripe prejudice.

[The Legendary Shark]

In the village where I grew up there are two 'sects' of religion, C of E and Methodists. I was Christened a Methodist though I don't remember being consulted on the options.
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Although there is no open hostility between the two sects there is a kind of false-smile rivalry that does sometimes lead to people falling out (but very rarely). The God Botherers (C of E) look down on the Sky Pilots (Methodists) for being in thrall to this new fangled rubbish and the Sky Pilots look down on the God Botherers for being in thrall to that outdated piffle.
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Mostly, of course, nobody cares (especially these days) whether you attend church or chapel and the tensions between the two were always mild to the point of invisibility. The differences, though, are there - no matter how deeply buried and it wouldn't take much to bring them to the surface, as has happened with Judaism and Christianity, for example.
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One of the major reasons for the historical and continued persecution of Jews is Judaism's stance on usury, or the charging of interest on loans. (I can hear your eyes rolling from here but bear with me.)
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Christianity, in common with Islam, from their very beginnings taught against usury but Judaism did not. This meant that if Muslims or Christians couldn't get loans, for whatever reason, in their own communities then they could go to the Jewish communities where they might get a loan but have to pay interest. Thus the Christians and Muslims demonised the Jews for being greedy and the Jews demonised the Christians and the Muslims for being hypocrites.
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Couple that with the rise of the banks I described in an earlier post, which did begin with but is currently in no way the exclusive preserve of Jewish bankers, and we end up where we are today.
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The low-level tensions between the God Botherers and the Sky Pilots in my village obviously fall far short of the tensions between Christianity, Islam and Judaism - but how long would this long-standing tolerance last if one sect hit upon the secret of creating money out of nothing whilst the other sect didn't? All of a sudden you get an unequal and divided community, one side wealthy and fearful and the other side poor and resentful.
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The love of money is at the root of all evil, even (and maybe even especially) racism.

[Grugz]

just proving you're never too old to learn ,I never knew that fact about the word Semitism ,I just thought it was a posh phrase for Judaism and not being a jew meself I never felt the need to look deeply into it or any religion beyond RE at school.

[TordelBack]

I have witnessed far less anti-semitism than I have racism of all other forms, none of which have been lucky enough to deserve their own special sub-label.

The label thing is a fair point, and by attacking one form of racism no-one is defending all the others.  It is however worth remembering that only 70 years ago today Jews were being subjected to industrialised genocide, not (just) as a consequence of economic drivers like slavery or landgrabs, but having been specifically singled out as the primary cause of a nation's ills.  While there's no doubt that innumerable other groupings have suffered as much and more throughout history and into the present day, the repeated pattern of pogrom in European history does suggest that Judaism has at least the right to name its aggressor. It's also the case that modern Jews tend not to form part of an underclass in the way that many minorities do (at least partially because those Jews that survived the Holocaust were often the ones with wealthy international connections), and so have an increased influence on discourse and language that more marginalised groups don't have.

I completely agree that the state of Israel has co-opted the whole concept of anti-semitism as an excuse to behave like the biggest wankers on Earth - but that doesn't mean that anti-semitism doesn't exist independent of Israel (although the latter surely doesn't help).

[Spikes]

Wow.

^ This.