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Pat Mills moving onto new things it would seem

Started by Colin YNWA, 19 August, 2020, 07:15:15 AM

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broodblik

Quote from: MumboJimbo on 19 August, 2020, 12:52:24 PM
I'd be happy, though, if all his 2000 AD characters were retired, if Pat's not around to write them. We've had so many great new strips recently: The Out, Proteus Vex, Full Tilt Boogie, Thistlebone etc. I'd rather we had more of those or other new strips than someone else doing Savage, Slaine, ABC Warriors etc. And I want to see what happens in more established ongoing fayer like Deadworld, Grey Area, Kingmaker, Kingdom and like without huge time gaps between series, so retiring some stuff would probably be a good idea as there are a lot of 2000 AD story plates spinning, some of which, like Scarlett Traces, just kinda stopped mid-narrative.

I also do not want someone else to continue with his creations. If it is the end then let it be. As you already mentioned we had some great new stuff recently and let us see more of those.
When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.

Old age is the Lord's way of telling us to step aside for something new. Death's in case we didn't take the hint.

Magnetica

Yes I agree. I don't want to see other writers take on any of Pat's strips. Just leave them alone and do other new stuff instead.

judgeurko

Quote from: broodblik on 19 August, 2020, 12:29:29 PM
I do not think we will ever get to a point where we have a model working with ownership of material. This can only work in a world where each party respect each other. Copyright and ownership is like world-peace an almost unattainable reality.
I may be wrong but doesn't Image Comics work to a creator owned model? I thought it did?

AlexF

Man, it must be hard work being Pat Mills. He writes loads, puts loads of research and effort in, gets super involved with finding and developing artists, and all the time he is evidently hugely ANGRY!

If it really is the end of his time at 2000AD, I'll miss him more than words can say, but I have to repsect his decision, if not his reasons.

Terra Meks IS a great story. But it's not even the best Ro-Busters story, and certainly not the best Mills has done in his exceptional and almost entirely WFH writing career...

Magnetica

Quote from: AlexF on 19 August, 2020, 01:22:53 PM.
Terra Meks IS a great story. But it's not even the best Ro-Busters story, and certainly not the best Mills has done in his exceptional and almost entirely WFH writing career...

I remember he was asked at the 40th what his best work for 2000AD was, and he said "Nemesis the Warlock".

IndigoPrime

Points raised above:

Renegotiation for residuals did happen. Hence Wagner's merch drop and creators now getting a percentage of reprint, etc.

Not doing great work unless you own rights seems a... brave move for any creator. I own the rights to very little that I write. But if my work wasn't great, I wouldn't get more work. That's the way of the world. As noted by Magnetica:

QuoteThe lack of ownership doesn't seem to stop Dan Abnett from doing stellar work.

Image only allows creator-owned material. But within that there are different balances when it comes to risk/reward compared to the traditional model. Rebellion, presumably, has decided the traditional model works for the company, with only the odd flirtation with creator-owned.

As a creator myself, I don't believe one of these models is 'right' and the other 'wrong'. Yes, it would ideally be good if those who make things retain the rights, but the reality is others are taking the risk. The problem I have is when the balance gets very badly skewed. (For example, I used to write a lot of content for a popular games mag. They then started—legally—reprinting that content in bookazines. Some of those editions were half stuff I'd written. I wasn't expecting to be paid again—reprint rights were something that died around 2000. But it would have been nice to have got a free copy. But: nope. I don't write for them anymore, because the effort wasn't worth the reward.)

Robin Low

Quote from: Magnetica on 19 August, 2020, 01:28:30 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 19 August, 2020, 01:22:53 PM.
Terra Meks IS a great story. But it's not even the best Ro-Busters story, and certainly not the best Mills has done in his exceptional and almost entirely WFH writing career...

I remember he was asked at the 40th what his best work for 2000AD was, and he said "Nemesis the Warlock".

I would agree. I read my Titan collections - The Gothic Empire in particular - over and over again in my teens. I think it lost its way after Deathbringer, but it's still something amazing.

After that, The Black Hole Mission was utterly brilliant, and much of Slaine up to The Horned God was outstanding.

However, I think special mention should go to Metalzoic, which seems overlooked to me. It drew on some ideas that dated back to the first episodes of Nemesis and while it was first a DC story it's one of the best 2000AD series ever.

Outside 2000AD, Marshal Law, Fear and Loathing was incredible. It's an even harder read today than it was at the time, but it remains a great story.

Regards,

Robin

Dark Jimbo

Quote from: Robin Low on 19 August, 2020, 11:17:04 AM
Quote from: Richard on 19 August, 2020, 11:04:03 AM
QuoteRequiem Vampire Knight (any good?)

It's absolutely brilliant, but unfinished.

Given the date of the last volume, I'm going to assume it unlikely it will ever be.

That's purely an art issue. Pat's finished the last volume, but the art's still not done. And you can understand why when you read it! Apparently the artist is of independent means, so he can afford to take as long as he likes.
@jamesfeistdraws

broodblik

Quote from: judgeurko on 19 August, 2020, 01:22:29 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 19 August, 2020, 12:29:29 PM
I do not think we will ever get to a point where we have a model working with ownership of material. This can only work in a world where each party respect each other. Copyright and ownership is like world-peace an almost unattainable reality.
I may be wrong but doesn't Image Comics work to a creator owned model? I thought it did?

You are correct that Image work's on creator owner model. But they also had a break-up in later on.
When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.

Old age is the Lord's way of telling us to step aside for something new. Death's in case we didn't take the hint.

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 19 August, 2020, 01:33:44 PM
Image only allows creator-owned material. But within that there are different balances when it comes to risk/reward compared to the traditional model.

The Image model is very straightforward: you deliver the book, they get it printed and distributed. They recoup the print/distribution costs plus a flat fee (ISTR hearing it was $3000 per issue, but that may be both wrong and out of date) and once that's covered, the creators keep the rest, per whatever agreement exists between them.*

It is possible to extract up-front money from Image, but they need to be very confident that the book will earn it back. Most creators don't get an advance, and those that do simply have that added on to the total that Image deduct from sales before they start paying out.

As I've said (tediously often, I'm sure) when this sort of conversation comes up, I know of maybe half-a-dozen well-reviewed, mid-selling Image books that have made the creators either nothing at all or a fraction of what they'd have made if they'd shopped it to a publisher who took the rights in exchange for a page rate. Hypothetical TV/movie money isn't much use when you've spent six months drawing a book that's paid back less than you'd have got stacking shelves for the same period.

It's all risk/reward. With WFH, you trade off risk for a fixed reward that might be less than you'd get if your book is a breakout hit and scores a Netflix deal. With creator-owned, you shoulder a lot more promotional work, take on the QC duties that would normally be covered by an editor, plus other editorial stuff (finding a colourist and letterer, for example) and run the risk of making nothing. Not even that Willy-Wonka-Golden-Ticket hope of a Netflix/HBO deal is a guarantee of solid money — the initial option fee can be fairly unimpressive and your project can end up in development hell before reverting back to you without ever delivering that woo-hoo payout.

*Which introduces a different vector for predatory practises. A lot of those 'creator-owned' books are actually 'writer-owned' with the artist on a WFH contract, paid a page rate out of the writer's pocket.
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

Robin Low

Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 19 August, 2020, 01:49:29 PMThat's purely an art issue. Pat's finished the last volume, but the art's still not done. And you can understand why when you read it! Apparently the artist is of independent means, so he can afford to take as long as he likes.

Thanks - I may look into getting it then.... or having just looked at the cost of volume 1, probably not! Shame, as it looks incredible - bit of a John Hicklenton vibe to the art.

Regards,

Robin

IndigoPrime

^ And all of what Jim covers above is what Sanders was basically saying in that memo, albeit in a rather tone-deaf and undiplomatic manner. Want to go creator-owned? Fine, but you pick up substantial extra risk. You make the thing, hope it sells well, and might later make some money. Happy with WFH? Then you'll get paid for the job, but after that point will make little or nothing.

A happy medium can exist here, of course, with publishers willing to entertain post-WFH shares, such as royalties, or some of the pot in the event a series is sold to another medium. Rights reversion after a set period of time (even if that time is lengthy) can also work. (Mags also have a third way—Future's contract stipulates copyright reverts after six months but the original WFH affords the publisher non-exclusive rights forever. And I suspect any writer attempting to hawk 'rival' work to existing fare would soon find themselves cut from the editor lists.)

SmallBlueThing(Reborn)

In a week that has seen the cancellation of all my favourite DC comics, the news of Pat leaving 2000AD is almost too much to bear.

If Spacewarp was available, now, in my local newsagent, I might be somewhat mollified, but as he seems to be pinning all hopes on what is- presently at least- a single digital comic, just breaks my heart. Of course I will buy it when it goes to print- in fact, I will buy two copies because one will be for my son. But no more Slaine? No more ABCs? No more Savage? No more Flesh? No more Defoe? No, that cannot be.

I was going to add a snarkily humorous comment here about what did you think would happen when he came only second in the Godpleton Cup? But you know what, it's too distressing. I hope he reconsiders. A 2000AD without Pat Mills is incomprehensible.

SBT

Colin YNWA

It almost goes without saying that I hope they don't hand over his strips to other writers. As mentioned downthread there are plenty of new concepts and stories coming in. To hand them out to others really would be Rebellion flicking the v's at Uncle Pat with relish and it would be hard to see any return from that?

What is a shame none of the current stories got a send off. I'd love the relationship to have ended on better terms so Mills could write a send off for Savage in particular, a story that feels like it has an ending that need to be written. ABC Warriors and Slaine are more spralling odysseys and so feel less in need of an ending, but would be nice if Pat M could have found a way to satisfactorially wrap them up and give us an ending. Defoe - must admit I pay less attention to.

Still we are were we are and have to respect that and look back happily at what we have rather than crave what we haven't...

but an end to Savage would be nice...

broodblik

If Mills could give his blessings for a writer of his choice to continue some of his work then we might get the conclusions to these stories.  I still say if he leaves then we have to life with it rather than another writer trying to make continue his stories.
When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.

Old age is the Lord's way of telling us to step aside for something new. Death's in case we didn't take the hint.