I was just re-reading The Dark Knight returns, and thinking about how the first time round I thought this Batman was cool and edgy, whereas now I see him as entitled rich man with a serious superiority complex who beats up people from lower classes.
So I turned my thoughts to some prog characters and how I saw them as a kid compared to how I see them as a boring middle-aged man.
Early Sláine then - a fierce barbarian hero even if he's a bit of a bully. Now - a boozy, horny teenage thug whose adventures I enjoy anyway.
Zenith then - kind of cool for all his faults. Now - it's just the faults. Even his music was rubbish.
Peter St John - well, of course he's not a hippy any more, he's old. Now - mate, you're looking a bit rough for only 42, and how the feck does an idealistic peacenik turn into a Thatcher lackey so quickly?
Danny Franks then - an interesting soldier with some great action scenes. Now - a terrified kid slowly letting the horror turn him into a hardened killer, as per the previously innocent kids in Vietnam. It could happen to any of us.
Stan Lee then- the most exciting Dredd character to appear in years. Now - I find normal person Blondel Dupree far more interesting.
Dog Deever then - an edgy punk with cool fighting skills. Now - a nasty little shit whose mother deserved better.
Straying from the prog again, I used to think Lennie from Shade the Changing Man was the coolest and sexiest character ever. Now she looks like she's trying a bit too hard to be kooky. She's still hot though - way too young for me, of course.
More will probably follow.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 25 February, 2024, 03:12:02 PMPeter St John - well, of course he's not a hippy any more, he's old. Now - mate, you're looking a bit rough for only 42, and how the feck does an idealistic peacenik turn into a Thatcher lackey so quickly?
I don't know the exact figures, but a lot of Thatcher's vote came from former hippies. I worked for quite a few Peter St Johns back in the '80s.
I used to think Deadlock was cool, but now it seems clear he's a massive bellend.
Dante is of course ripe for this topic of conversation! It's been interesting listening to this being discussed on Simon & Edie's podcast. I know his character growth is a big part of the story but some of his early stuff that was meant to be cool is very cringey.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 25 February, 2024, 03:12:02 PMStraying from the prog again, I used to think Lennie from Shade the Changing Man was the coolest and sexiest character ever. Now she looks like she's trying a bit too hard to be kooky. She's still hot though - way too young for me, of course.
So, so much to agree with in that opening post but this one in particular struck home having thought about Shade a bit lately.
I'm in the interesting position of coming to a lot of older material now for the first time, so I'm looking, fresh, both with adult eyes and without rose-tinted spectacles, for the most part.
Regarding Lenny in Shade, having almost read it all now* I haven't got annoyed by her much - in fact at first I didn't even realise it was a her. Right at her introduction she seemed like a bit of an effete male, and that probably coloured my interpretation of her opening dialogue which did annoy me, but she doesn't seem inherently annoying now. I'd agree with "trying too hard to be kooky" though, but that's really what she is. Perhaps as a youngster that aspect passed unnoticed?
Having read Colin's comment about her in his Top 100 I was bracing myself for an annoying character, but I'm fine with it. Probably on a re-read knowing what to expect would change my perception. So there's the matter of foreknowledge of the characters & stories that may also influence your adult perceptions.
*I took a break to listen to my knee-high-and-growing pile of recently bought and unlistened-to records, cos I can't read & listen to music at the same time.
The obvious one is Dredd, the younger me though he was a real hero but you realize quite quickly in real life do you want such a police force.
Nemesis is for me very similar that I though he was a hero but in many senses he is just as bad as Torquemada. Nemesis does not have a real good guy in such a sense.
Yeah, Nemesis is a nasty bit of work. It's been a while since I read it, but I think the realisation he wasn't a good guy started to creep in around Vengeance of Thoth, blowing up school kids and that. It takes some time but I think Purity starts to emerge as the hero of the book after that?
While I wasn't a fan of the later Nemesis books, I think one thing Mills totally nailed was that point of the two leads both being massive arseholes. Torquemada was a bigot who thought his ideology sacrosanct. Nemesis was so powerful that it was all a game for a bored 'god' – one that ended up costing him personally, but honestly never to the point you knew whether what he lost mattered more than the game that was being played. As Boots notes, that bit with the children was quite the turn. That was all skilfully played by Mills.
It's also interesting to see how different people respond to the old thrills now, either through revisiting them, coming to them fresh, or remembering them nostalgically – rather than actually rereading them. There's a clear contingent of 'why did 2000 AD go woke?', holding up the 1970s comics as a bastion of quality. Then there are long-term fans who have an element of nostalgia in their thinking, but can approach the old comics critically and objectively. And then there are total newcomers, who come at 2000 AD from various angles.
For me, there's also an element with this of the characters vs the production. So, yeah, Zenith is a self-absorbed arsehole. Although even at the time if you were in any doubt of that, Phase III should have cured you. But I still find the series itself rereadable and engaging. But whereas I thought Robo-Hunter was buckets of fun when I was a kid – not least because of those amazing robot designs – I find it really hard going now. My brain files it alongside ancient Marvel, in the sense of the underlying production being sexist, racist, etc, rather than just the lead being an arse.
Dante will be an interesting one when I get around to it again. I hope it holds up. My take at the time was he was a prick who was forced to grow up because of all the horrors surrounding him.
Dantes development begins surprisingly early one, even before Tsar Wars.
Before rereading the series for a 'ahem' post on another 'ahem' thread, I was cautiously aware a few things may just not feel great by my modern sensibilities but you know what, nowhere near as much as I would have thought. The weirdest stuff is mostly condensed into that first volume/batch of stories.
I have reread Dante a few times and I still enjoy as much when I read it for the first time. I think he was suppose to be a arsehole in the beginning and over time he evolved.
Zenith I knew from the begining whom he was so even today I see him in the same light when I first read it.
There's a sense that Zenith is a plot device, but Peter St. John is the real protagonist.
Quote from: Barrington Boots on 26 February, 2024, 10:06:25 AMI used to think Deadlock was cool
It's a bit like if you hired the KLF as your bank managers.
- "So, you burned all of my money as part of an art project, except for $23, which you've stapled to a dead sheep?"
- "Khaos demanded it!"
Dante for me is a bit different, in that I was an adult when it started.
I didn't like the story much, and I hated the character. He was a smug little shit and I just didn't get why people liked him.
After the war knocked him about a bit and he lost the shite hairstyle, I found myself warming to him a bit then at the end liking him, and in the process realising what an amazing world Robbie and the artists had built.
I first read Zenith as a lad. He made a difference in book 1 (finally killing the super Nazi) and 2 (talking down Richard Branson) but 3 and 4 he was mostly whining and running away. He started a brat, and ended a brat. I still enjoy reading it today though.
Zenith barely being in it was one of the many things I loved about Phase 3
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 26 February, 2024, 06:47:31 PMDante for me is a bit different, in that I was an adult when it started.
Me too. First read in the Hachette books so not long ago at all.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 26 February, 2024, 06:47:31 PMI didn't like the story much, and I hated the character. He was a smug little shit and I just didn't get why people liked him.
I didn't mind him too much at first, he was cocky but that was OK. I was put off by the 'too cool to kill' stuff. Cringe. That didn't last too long thankfully. And there was enough world building going on to keep me interested.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 26 February, 2024, 06:47:31 PMAfter the war knocked him about a bit and he lost the shite hairstyle, I found myself warming to him a bit then at the end liking him, and in the process realising what an amazing world Robbie and the artists had built.
Yeah his character definitely matured and grew on me - good writing.
Changing views on a character or strip I tend to think are a result of advanced writing - which I wouldn't automatically call "good writing" myself, as there's a number of strips over the years that are pretty straightforward that I also think are well written. But if there's a certain level of complexity or sophistication there (even if the strip is also going for broad laughs) then there's going to be room for multiple readings.
And the reverse is true as well. There's been a few strips over the years that are clearly aiming for something more complex as far as characterisation goes but they never clicked with me. Sometimes what you want is a story that states its aims loud and clear up front and sticks to them throughout. Or just some decent art.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 26 February, 2024, 02:14:27 PMIt's also interesting to see how different people respond to the old thrills now, either through revisiting them, coming to them fresh, or remembering them nostalgically – rather than actually rereading them. There's a clear contingent of 'why did 2000 AD go woke?', holding up the 1970s comics as a bastion of quality. Then there are long-term fans who have an element of nostalgia in their thinking, but can approach the old comics critically and objectively.
I know what you mean. There are a lot of old thrills that I still recall from the point of view of my 7 year old self with all the sensibilities that involves. I think that's why I have such a soft spot for Death Planet, even though it is incredibly hackneyed. It was one of the earliest stories that I connected with, partially I think because of that cover with the lead character.
Robo-Hunter just blew my mind with the intricacy of the artwork. The Verdus Gibson created was an amazing place, it just felt like a rabbit warren. Then you had the insanely clear artwork of Gibbons and Bolland. All this at a time when I'd just OD'd on the visuals of the first Star Wars film.
Yet re-reading those strips now it is clear that they've not aged well on some levels. They were written for the age I and many others readers were at the time. Some of the best strips are ageless. Looking at them now there is still something that appeals to current generations at much as to those who first saw them. Strontium Dog is, to my mind, a good example. Tapping into that Western Vibe, giving it a Sci-Fi twist and adding in a dose of social commentary. A lead character that was always a little removed but with a conscience that limited what he would accept ...
Tooth has definitely matured over the years and that has always been its strength. Old characters have been revisited and occasionally, and with varying degrees of success, reimagined. New characters have stretched our minds even further. Even when tales don't quite click, they're still worth the while.
I also see that the prog is not same as it was when it started. Mau people see it as a negative I see it as a positive. As the world changes around us the prog is also changing and evolving with the times. What was popular and spectacular yesterday is none event today. Stories that worked for the 70/80s just does not work anymore. Children of today has many more distractions that yesterday so the weekly prog of yesterday worked for me but will not work for the younglings of today.
I also want to add that I believe if prog 1 was published today I most likely would not have followed it.
Quote from: 13school on 27 February, 2024, 04:05:46 AMChanging views on a character or strip I tend to think are a result of advanced writing - which I wouldn't automatically call "good writing" myself, as there's a number of strips over the years that are pretty straightforward that I also think are well written. But if there's a certain level of complexity or sophistication there (even if the strip is also going for broad laughs) then there's going to be room for multiple readings.
And the reverse is true as well. There's been a few strips over the years that are clearly aiming for something more complex as far as characterisation goes but they never clicked with me. Sometimes what you want is a story that states its aims loud and clear up front and sticks to them throughout. Or just some decent art.
I completely agree with all you say, but that's not exactly the point I was making in my first post.
I was talking about how I perceived the characters in stories when I first read them (usually as a kid) and how I perceive them when I reread them as an adult. I was thinking more about the difference between me as a naive young reader, when even the teenage Johnny Alpha looked grown up to me, and me as a jaded middle-aged reader, who is glad that at least Dredd is still older than me.
Quote from: broodblik on 27 February, 2024, 07:25:13 AMChildren of today has many more distractions that yesterday so the weekly prog of yesterday worked for me but will not work for the younglings of today.
Thing is, that's down to the storytelling more than the format. Many kids who get weekly comics love them. The problem is that we now have a generation of parents who never had that habit themselves, and so it's rapidly disappearing. When I tell friend about The Phoenix, a small number do try that six-week trial. (I mean, six comics for £1! Who wouldn't?) Most of them then end up sticking with it, because their kids invariably love getting some post and getting a great comic to read.
So today, you have the dual challenge of targeting the market with storytelling that will click
and discovery. And one might argue you have a third challenge in some cases, in overriding the expectations of what a comic should be, based on the history of the parent. (See: the 'it wasn't like this in my day' brigade, raging about the audacity to have eg gay characters in comics.)
On the topic of re-reading, I'd second (third?) Strontium Dog as holding up well. I'll admit when reading through the Hachette books that I liked the classic run less than I thought I would (bar some high points like Rage) and the reboot more than I thought (bar Life and Death). But it to me largely didn't feel dated in the way, say, Robo-Hunter did. The one negative was Durham Red as a vixen-like Smurfette, which in itself would have been solved had three have been more diversity in the cast. But then diversity wasn't even a consideration for the vast majority of strips back then.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 27 February, 2024, 09:29:26 AMThing is, that's down to the storytelling more than the format. Many kids who get weekly comics love them. The problem is that we now have a generation of parents who never had that habit themselves, and so it's rapidly disappearing. When I tell friend about The Phoenix, a small number do try that six-week trial. (I mean, six comics for £1! Who wouldn't?) Most of them then end up sticking with it, because their kids invariably love getting some post and getting a great comic to read.
So today, you have the dual challenge of targeting the market with storytelling that will click and discovery. And one might argue you have a third challenge in some cases, in overriding the expectations of what a comic should be, based on the history of the parent.
There's also the factor that many of the readers of comics of yesteryear are now adults with their own kids or grandkids. There's a generation or two of parents who grew up reading comics targeted at both them in their youth and them as adults. This has created a more stable [edit: +mainstream] culture for the "graphic novel."
Something my parents would sniffily refer to as "a comic" (complete with inverted commas in their tone), I call a comic book, or graphic novel with no condescension.
This means there's a target market with an ever
decreasing tone of "aren't they just for kids?" inherent in their image acting as a barrier to new adult readers.
The graphic novel for those adults-to-be isn't
just something you start reading as a kid and hark back to with nostalgia, like is it for us has-beens.
Yes, that's fair. The stigma of comics has been significantly reduced, and it's a medium in the UK that can now continue beyond childhood without fear of ridicule, presumably much to the bemusement of, say, French or Japanese readers who have for far longer had that.
But that flip side of the habit of comics just going away is palpable. Mini-IP's never had more than a handful of friends who've had a regular subscription. Although quite a few of them do have a small collection of collected comics.
I find it sad, because comics provide space for experimentation and the next thing. Publishing books is a very different market and one look at the children's section shows how dominated it is by very few series.
It'll be interesting to see if mini-IP in her own future has a discussion such as this one – and how different it would be.
I'd say that habit going away at the other end applies too.
I recently got rid of around 20 years worth of progs and megs, and it felt cathartic if I'm being honest.
I'd fallen out of love with, if not the prog, the ritual of reading a 6/7 page story a week and once that habit is broken I didn't feel the need to jump back in (and it's tricky even if I wanted to)
I've wondered if a monthly or longer fewer stories would scratch that itch, (I stuck with the Meg longer than the prog), but I think the days of me buying the prog and picking up collections are over - I'll pick up the collection occasionally, but space, money and inclination are all factors for me.
It just strikes me that if someone who got through the 90s is struggling with it, what an uphill struggle it must be to find new readers
Although those can be different things. As we age, we can feel the weight of habits as much as the joy of collections. Interests build and wane. I have two massive boxes of Zoids in the attic that I can't bear the thought of parting with but probably should because they're never going out on display again.
Comics... I get that too. I flirted with ditching my Progs too because we had nowhere to put them. They now live in our garage, on metal racking. But that space is finite too and so I'm not sure what'll happen if I'm still collecting the Prog in however many years it'll take to fill the remaining space. (Our main bookshelf in the living room is more or less at one-in-one-out for me now too.)
I thought that Urban Strike was hilarious when I first read it...
Quote from: Vector14 on 28 February, 2024, 09:27:53 PMI thought that Urban Strike was hilarious when I first read it...
Ouch - so did I?!?
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 28 February, 2024, 09:41:06 PMQuote from: Vector14 on 28 February, 2024, 09:27:53 PMI thought that Urban Strike was hilarious when I first read it...
Ouch - so did I?!?
Wait, though - it
is hilarious. It was just weird having an ad-strip in the comic. It's like the funting proto-version of Sinister Dexter.
Quote from: Rogue Trooper on 28 February, 2024, 10:33:27 PMQuote from: Colin YNWA on 28 February, 2024, 09:41:06 PMQuote from: Vector14 on 28 February, 2024, 09:27:53 PMI thought that Urban Strike was hilarious when I first read it...
Ouch - so did I?!?
Wait, though - it is hilarious. It was just weird having an ad-strip in the comic. It's like the funting proto-version of Sinister Dexter.
I reread it recently and found it pretty tedious. But perhaps my humor receptors had been temporarily deactivated from all the vector 13 I had been trudging through alongside it.
May have worked better as a 3riller.
I thought it was funny too. For me that was the era the prog started clawing its way out of the bad years - Wagner back on Dredd, Staples and Langley on Sláine, and another Dredd at the end.