“Truth? You can't handle the truth!”

[Dandontdare]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/08/09/court-rulings-dont-confirm-autism-vaccine-link/

The centerpiece of the "courts confirm" article is the 2012 finding of a local Italian court that a child was diagnosed with autism a year after receiving an MMR. The court, in linking the two things, relied very heavily on the retracted and fraudulent 1998 Wakefield MMR Lancet paper and the testimony of a single physician, hired by the plaintiff's attorney (widely known for advising parents on how to avoid compulsory vaccinations). The physician, Massimo Montinari, it seems, has written a book on how vaccines cause autism and peddles an autism "cure" that he's devised.

One comment from that (incredibly biased) site that TLS linked to says: "Compulsory vaccines is the ultimate violation of personhood... not to mention our basic, fundamental human rights. It WILL lead to horrific suicidal violence directed at those that promote such $talinist ideas."

I fully support people's right to choose not to be vaccinated or to vaccinate their kids - as long as they are forced to live in colonies separate from society so they don't spread infections amongst the rest of us.

[TordelBack]

Successful vaccination is arguably humanity's greatest achievement, an absolute and unequivocal net good, a proven assertion that individuals acting in concert can be good for all. As DDD says, turning your back on vaccination because of self-interested superstition should be a one-way ticket to a modern leper colony. It's precisely where I draw the line on the individual's freedom to be a fecking idiot: when it represents real and pointless harm to the community. Not offense, not discomfort, but death and disability and plenty of it.

[Theblazeuk]

I would love to know if anyone who champions anti-vaccination has ever suffered from any of the diseases vaccinations prevent.

[von Boom]

Or worse, some anti-vaccination plonker whose child has come down with one of those diseases.

[Richmond Clements]

I suspect they they are like any other kind of conspiracy truther in that there's nothing you can say or no evidence you can present that they cannot ignore or dance around.

[shaolin_monkey]

. The Lancet should every single bloody week reprint WE ARE SO FUCKING SORRY across a double-page spread, and Private Eye's championing of the original report shouldn't be forgotten either.

Blimey, didn't know about Private Eye.  What was their involvement?

[IndigoPrime]

The problem is people forget what these diseases did, and they think that just because the majority don't die, no-one will. They avoid an infinitesimal risk to a child (a deadly negative reaction to a vaccine) and play it against a much larger (if small) individual risk, but that combines to form a huge risk for society as a whole. The recent Disney disaster shows that: kids hospitalised for measles! In 2015! In the USA! Fucking hell. (And although I live in an area with a high vaccine rate, there are a lot of middle-class fuckwits around here that for a while made me rather concerned about the unvaccinated state of our newborn, because what if?)

I'd fully support schools and medical establishments essentially blocking entry from people who aren't vaccinated unless they have very good (i.e. very rare and specific health) reasons why they're not.

As for autism, it's undoubtedly a horrible thing, but the symptoms manifest around the time vaccines are done. Correlation is not causation, otherwise Internet Explorer market-share would be being blamed for the US murder rate.

[IndigoPrime]

Blimey, didn't know about Private Eye.  What was their involvement?

It supported Wakefield. Heavily. It got it very wrong and never really admitted doing so, instead defending its coverage, which was based on junk science that itself was based on terrible numbers. Without Private Eye's coverage, the overall effect of Wakefield may well have been substantially lower.

In general, I like Private Eye and its anti-establishment leanings. Here, it messed up monumentally.

[Richmond Clements]

Here's how deal with one of them. http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/anderson-cooper-takes-down-dan-burton/

[Famous Mortimer]

How about vaccinations causing autism in certain cases? It seems Italian courts have ruled it more likely than not. Is a court science? No but it is meant to consider evidence and come to an impartial decision.

http://www.britannica.com/list/148/editor-picks-the-10-worst-us-supreme-court-decisions-part-one

[TordelBack]

How about vaccinations causing autism in certain cases? It seems Italian courts have ruled it more likely than not. Is a court science? No but it is meant to consider evidence and come to an impartial decision.

http://www.britannica.com/list/148/editor-picks-the-10-worst-us-supreme-court-decisions-part-one

The thing about those (very interesting, cheers!) cases is that they are all essentially about basic morality (discrimination, exploitation etc) and/or money, things which you would hope courts would have some expertise, but would not be surprised when they get it wrong due to their inevitable failings and biases as humans. The vaccination business is science, pure and simple, and nobody should be under the impression that these are questions about 'choice' in society any more than driving blindfolded is a 'choice'.

If anyone wants to play a game of anecdotes as opposed to general scientific conclusions, I dig up dead people for part of my living. I can expect that the majority of those dead people will be children (in those cultures that routinely bury children in a recognisable way), and that's even allowing for cultural attitudes to disposing of neonates and stillbirths less formally. Most recent cemetery dig, an 18th/19th C one, the usual pattern was 2 or more children inserted into/around each adult grave. I'll let any anti-vaxxer have a good rummage in the boxes around my desk, and then they can explain why their misunderstanding if causation a statistics and 'people I know' is worth going back to that shite.

[TordelBack]

Apologies for that nonsensical rant. I find vaccination a very emotive subject, which isn't helpful. Nearly bit our GPs head off when he asked us as new parents how we 'felt' about vaccination. Strongly, that's how.

[GordonR]

9/11 conspiracy and now vaccination causes autism.  Are we going for a collect-the-set deal on online mentalism this week?

Next up: the Moon landings!

[ZenArcade]

Well after my crop circle experience is debated.  Z

[ming]

Vaccination is a no-brainer and I'm continually astonished that it seems to be the 'educated' people who have issues with this.  As a parent, it's just insane to not take the precaution.  And anyone reading Roald Dahl's letter and remaining unswayed... well.

https://roalddahl.com/roald-dahl/timeline/1960s/november-1962