Fellow Dredd heads following on from my previous posts and the weather of Dredd knowledged shared with me I have come to ponder this question;
Given Dredd now being late in his 70s' but receiving a recent top and tail rejuv is Rebelion now quietly letting the old arthritic and slow Joe Dredd slip into quiet obscurity and let this 25 year backstory starting with the death of Judge Morphy and a "Letter to Judge Dredd", Democaracy etc all be for nothing. I mean seriously how long could they clog this horse without the storing him. Obviously this would never do for Rebellion Dredd book sales, so the easier option to let it go.
Those more learned than me in Dredd lore have a handle on this. I would appreciate your thoughts
Not as many times as this thread has!
Sorry what do you mean?
Quote from: The dude on 08 January, 2017, 09:34:43 PM
Sorry what do you mean?
I think this is pretty much a continuation of the "rejuve thread" and will spark the same circular arguments - Has Dredd beensoft rebooted? Well, he was with the Apocalypse War, and again with Question of Judgement, an again with Necropolis, and again with America and again with Day of Chaos - the low key rejuve story is the least of his reboots!
Wagner himself acknowledges Rebellion won't let him kill the Golden Goose, but I don't think that necessarily means he will ever be more rebooted than those previous examples - unless you read more into that one-off than I suspect anyone involved intended
He got some new Russells (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnLa9RWXYAA_Yfg.jpg) and a hide that no longer sags in his pleathers but he's still the same old Dredd inside- I'd say he's disgusted with himself.
http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=44029.0
I think it goes. Sound the last thread I made in that if they wanted to let it play out adnauseum they would not have thrown in that one off. That face it they have been flogging a dead horse for years. It was either" shit or get of the pot" time. I prosnally would have dearly liked to see the actual finish to this never ending saga of tight boots and self doubt. Not this cheats way out. That's just my opinion
If there wasn't a constant supply of good stories the accusation of flogging a dead horse would have some substance (unless you're talking about The Man Comes Around?)
Not sure what this talk of soft reboots after mega-epics is all about - having a long story doesn't mean everything has been rebooted, it means that the major events in the story had consequences.
Quote from: sheridan on 09 January, 2017, 01:54:16 PM
Not sure what this talk of soft reboots after mega-epics is all about - having a long story doesn't mean everything has been rebooted, it means that the major events in the story had consequences.
I agree. "Soft reboot" sounds like a complete misunderstanding of what both the comic and character are.
Mm. Dredd's never really had any kind of reboot. The early years had a while of figuring out what the story and Dredd's world were, but that merely resulted in inconsistencies and continuity issues (cops milling around in early stories; the tiny number of judges; that MC-1 was initially showcased as almost a utopia as far as Goodman thought regarding employment – or the lack thereof).
More of a 'hand wave' really.
ISTR answering this question last week. I disagree that it's been retconned. The storytelling style developed over 40 years, and some writers ignore parts of continuity, but there are precious few examples of past history bring changed by a new story. Maybe Origins did that, although I feel like it just filled in gaps.
Quote from: Trout on 09 January, 2017, 04:55:18 PM
ISTR answering this question last week. I disagree that it's been retconned.
I agree. There's been some modest tidying up from the early, multiple-writer, throw-everything-at-the-walls-to-see-what-sticks, period, but the narrative of Dredd is more or less a straight line from Prog 2 to today, with the odd thing swept under the carpet, and the occasional gap filled in (like Origins).
(Nobody has ever said that the more outlandish humour stories
never happened, for instance... they're just not directly referred to these days.)
I'd love to see the Stupid Gun come back. Just saying.
Quote from: Trout on 09 January, 2017, 05:01:09 PM
I'd love to see the Stupid Gun come back. Just saying.
Haven't you
seen politics and mass media in the last two decades? ;)
Quote from: The dude on 08 January, 2017, 09:12:02 PM
Given Dredd's rejuve, is Rebellion now quietly letting the old and slow Joe Dredd slip into quiet obscurity and let this 25 year backstory - starting with the death of Judge Morphy and a "Letter to Judge Dredd", Democracy etc - all be for nothing
Those storylines were about Dredd's disenchantment with the system and his role in it, not his physical age*. Nobody rejuved the character's
brain, so that conflict and that storyline haven't gone away.
* Dredd quit because of Wm Wenders' letter (http://imgur.com/a/vs1gc), not because he was being replaced by a younger model. By failing Kraken (http://i.imgur.com/nT0iBAM.png), Dredd thought he'd prevented his younger double joining him on the streets of MC1, yet he still quit. According to the story Sector House (http://i.imgur.com/hOYI5E2.png), Justice Department had seven younger Fargo clones either on the streets or in the Academy, and Dredd gets on fine with the only two of them we've ever met - Rico II and Dolman. In fact, he did his best to persuade Dolman to stay on and take his place.
Quote from: CalHab on 09 January, 2017, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 09 January, 2017, 01:54:16 PM
Not sure what this talk of soft reboots after mega-epics is all about - having a long story doesn't mean everything has been rebooted, it means that the major events in the story had consequences.
I agree. "Soft reboot" sounds like a complete misunderstanding of what both the comic and character are.
I agree as well - that's the point I'm making. Evven if we accept that the rejuve treatment is establishing some different dynamic regards Dredd's age, then the apocalypse War and DoC change up his world and Necropolis and the following democracy stories resolve the issues we only first saw in Question of Judgement, which again "soft rebooted" how we saw Dredd. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a soft reboot so much as a new path for the character to walk along. I'm assuming soft reboot means there is some inherent contradiction in the new "version" perhaps, but who knows, other than the Dude!
IIRC, Dolly the cloned sheep aged/fell apart rather quickly.
It's not impossible, then, that by the time Fargo got cloned these problems might be not only solved but reversed. Dreddworld clones might be more robust and long-lasting than natural born people.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 09 January, 2017, 08:08:49 PM
IIRC, Dolly the cloned sheep aged/fell apart rather quickly. It's not impossible, then, that by the time Fargo got cloned these problems might be not only solved but reversed. Dreddworld clones might be more robust and long-lasting than natural born people.
Dredd was given a rejuve in Carroll and Willsher's
Carousel (Megazine 375 (http://i.imgur.com/3W1sc4D.png)). Dredd's physical condition isn't something that needs fixing or explaining, anymore*.
* Dredd's been moaning about his back (http://i.imgur.com/HfDFtn7.png) since his forties and he developed cancer (http://i.imgur.com/kqa8FyD.png) ten years ago, so there's no reason to suppose he's any more Superman than the human of whom he's a direct copy - Fargo went into some kind of suspended animation in his fifties, but he looks like a walnut's scrotum in Origins (set 107 years after his birth). We've also seen Dredd take a few medicals (http://i.imgur.com/hOYI5E2.png); they mention he's in okay shape for someone his age, but there's never been any suggestion he or any other clone's physiologically younger than expected.
Quote from: Leigh S on 09 January, 2017, 06:03:22 PM
Quote from: CalHab on 09 January, 2017, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 09 January, 2017, 01:54:16 PM
Not sure what this talk of soft reboots after mega-epics is all about - having a long story doesn't mean everything has been rebooted, it means that the major events in the story had consequences.
I agree. "Soft reboot" sounds like a complete misunderstanding of what both the comic and character are.
I agree as well - that's the point I'm making. Evven if we accept that the rejuve treatment is establishing some different dynamic regards Dredd's age, then the apocalypse War and DoC change up his world and Necropolis and the following democracy stories resolve the issues we only first saw in Question of Judgement, which again "soft rebooted" how we saw Dredd. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a soft reboot so much as a new path for the character to walk along. I'm assuming soft reboot means there is some inherent contradiction in the new "version" perhaps, but who knows, other than the Dude!
gee golly gosh I'm all a eyes a fluttter and cheeks a glow that you mentioned me. Simple put I think for the less senile amongst us Dredd fans removing that ghost of decrepitude past means the owners of his craggy face can force through another ten years of stories whereby the majority of readers forget he is actually an OAP judge with rectal fissures and a bad back. 👍😜
"Force through another 10 years of stories..."? You say that like its's a bad thing. I'm rather keen on reading Dredd's adventures until I'm old and decrepit myself.
Yet again we come to the key question: what's the alternative to keeping Dredd active on the streets? Dead and replaced? Chief Judge Dredd? Bio-chips? Pushed around in a bath-chair by Walter? All crap. I don't care for the rather glib non-eventness of Carousel, but it's a better solution than ALL those.
Quote from: The dude on 09 January, 2017, 09:00:19 PM
Simple put I think for the less senile amongst us Dredd fans removing that ghost of decrepitude past means the owners of his craggy face can force through another ten years of stories whereby the majority of readers forget he is actually an OAP judge with rectal fissures and a bad back. 👍😜
Dredd is still drawn like an old scrote even after his "rejuve"; I guess having old innards means his new skin-job will rot a whole lot faster than normal.
(http://comicsalliance.com/files/2016/12/Dreddmas02.jpg?w=630&h=828&zc=1&s=0&a=t&q=89)
Quote from: TordelBack on 09 January, 2017, 10:17:09 PM
Dead and replaced? Chief Judge Dredd? Bio-chips? Pushed around in a bath-chair by Walter? All crap.
True. I was fine with
70 is the new 40, but I accept a significant percentage of readers weren't.
Our pal, The dude, appears to be proposing that Wagner should write the character's final story. I'd like to read that, but Rebellion have made it clear that's not something that interests them.
Even if that happened, Rebellion would still want to publish new Dredd stories every week. That means an
actual reboot, or a
do-over, or a
Mulligan, or whatever we're calling it this week. That's crap too.
I can't help but think that this thread is a whole debate over nothing. Is the Dude's point really that he's miffed that Rebellion are keeping Dredd alive? If so, fundamentally, why?
I like reading Judge Dredd and am happy with the stories and it feels like a gripe without basis. Still, The Internet.
Personally I don't like hand waving Dredd's age, if you want to have a 'real time' aspect to your action/adventure sci-fi comic. Own it. Otherwise it cheapens your hero and his 40 years of exploits.
But I'm not going to make a thread about it. Because its patently obvious WHY Rebellion will never go that route. Dredd isn't creator owned, he's a brand. He's not going anywhere.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 09 January, 2017, 11:31:44 PM
Personally I don't like hand waving Dredd's age, if you want to have a 'real time' aspect to your action/adventure sci-fi comic. Own it. Otherwise it cheapens your hero and his 40 years of exploits.
Carousel proved they are owning the issue; they're just not owning it in the way some would prefer. Even though it's still within the internal bounds of the strip.
Carousel was fine, but ultimately just kicks the football down the road again. You can only band-aid the age issue so long, until it raises more questions then it answers. Lest we forget 50 Year Man addressed the issue too. But that wasn't enough.
Like, why would Justice Department let any Judge retire to teach at the academy/take the long walk, when they can just deage them? Cost and because Dredd's a special case? Okay. But we've seen Cits use this kind of tech before too. So it can't be that rare/expensive. World inconsistency for plot armor, that's a big pet peeve of mine.
What I'm saying is, there's an interesting story somewhere to solve the problem. One that doesn't involve deaging tech, replacing him, or killing the guy off. I minor epic that leads to a near death Dredd having to have his brain transplanted into a brain dead Rico or something. That'll give the old man another 40 years before its a problem again, easy.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 10 January, 2017, 12:08:54 AM
Carousel was fine, but ultimately just kicks the football down the road again. You can only band-aid the age issue so long, until it raises more questions then it answers. Lest we forget 50 Year Man addressed the issue too. But that wasn't enough.
Citizens can live well into their hundreds - why not Judges?
Quote from: The Adventurer on 10 January, 2017, 12:08:54 AMLike, why would Justice Department let any Judge retire to teach at the academy/take the long walk, when they can just deage them? Cost and because Dredd's a special case? Okay.
Because they grant Judges at least the choice?
It's not the easiest job and an unwilling street Judge who has reached the end of the line is a useless Judge, no matter the age. Dredd seems happy to break heads while he can and while the city is in such a shit state, but then again, he was made for it.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 10 January, 2017, 12:08:54 AMWhat I'm saying is, there's an interesting story somewhere to solve the problem. One that doesn't involve deaging tech, replacing him, or killing the guy off. I minor epic that leads to a near death Dredd having to have his brain transplanted into a brain dead Rico or something. That'll give the old man another 40 years before its a problem again, easy.
Personally, I think that's worse. Not the wrapping it up in a story bit but the transplant - and you've still got a very old brain in a younger body.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 09 January, 2017, 11:31:44 PM
But I'm not going to make a thread about it.
Try three threads. That I've noticed...
the way I've looked at it that Dredd's a clone, surely when they were creating them the Judges would have found a way to slow the aging of the clones or improved their health & life span along with all the different changes they would have made otherwise why bother with creating clones in the first place
Quote from: The Adventurer on 10 January, 2017, 12:08:54 AM
Carousel was fine, but ultimately just kicks the football down the road again ... why would Justice Department let any Judge retire to teach at the academy/take the long walk, when they can just deage them?
... there's an interesting story somewhere to solve the problem. One that doesn't involve deaging tech, replacing him, or killing the guy off. A minor epic that leads to a near death Dredd having to have his brain transplanted into a brain dead Rico or something
Why would Justice Department let any Judge retire to teach at the Academy/take the long walk, when they can just transplant their brain into another body. The problem no longer needs solving anyway - they can keep rejuving Dredd indefinitely.
* The problem with brain transplant is the same as rejuvenation; it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing Dredd would do. He doesn't think of himself as anything special.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 09 January, 2017, 11:20:04 PM
I can't help but think that this thread is a whole debate over nothing. Is the Dude's point really that he's miffed that Rebellion are keeping Dredd alive? If so, fundamentally, why?
I like reading Judge Dredd and am happy with the stories and it feels like a gripe without basis. Still, The Internet.
in rebuttal it can be argued that all the threads on this Forum are about nothing! This is afterall a fictional character that has no impact upon anything other than our entertainment. There are obviously enough people who wish to discuss this topic with some attempt at rationalising this whole age issue, because it is enjoyable to just ponder it for its own sake.
Quote from: Frank on 10 January, 2017, 07:06:08 AMThe problem with brain transplant is the same as rejuvenation; it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing Dredd would do. He doesn't think of himself as anything special
Goes a bit deeper than that, even. The ascetic aspect to a Judge's life is pretty critical to the strip and the character: a judge receive no rewards for his service, except the honour of serving. It's about the only thing that makes them even vaguely sympathetic as fascist bastards go. State-funded eternal life seems like a pretty big perk that potentially undermines that principle completely: makes a bit of nookie or a backhander seem trivial.
Although as I think we discussed in the aftermath of Carousel, perhaps an endless life of 24 hour days with no prospect of release is the greatest sacrifice imaginable. Sssstory possibilitiessss galore and all that.
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2017, 09:33:24 AM
State-funded eternal life seems like a pretty big perk that potentially undermines that principle completely: makes a bit of nookie or a backhander seem trivial.
Although as I think we discussed in the aftermath of Carousel, perhaps an endless life of 24 hour days with no prospect of release is the greatest sacrifice imaginable. Sssstory possibilitiessss galore and all that.
Judges seem to have an absurdly high mortality rate. Rejuve wouldn't be much of a perk.
They can also be "frozen" at the point of death to be repaired and revived and thrown back into the mixer when med-tech's caught up.
I always had the vague feeling that what stopped the Judges from using all the fancy life-extending technology was that they were basically a fairly conservative outfit, and if something wasn't expressly mentioned as being allowed in ye olde law books they wouldn't take it on board. "Giving crippled Judges giant robot claws and sending them off to the Academy of Law to scare the kids is the way it's always been done!" and so on.
Quote from: CalHab on 10 January, 2017, 11:17:08 AM
Judges seem to have an absurdly high mortality rate. Rejuve wouldn't be much of a perk.
I dunno, Dredd seems to run into surviving Class of '79 alums all the time... Admittedly it's usually about two episodes before he sends them to hell or Titan.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 10 January, 2017, 11:21:19 AM
They can also be "frozen" at the point of death to be repaired and revived and thrown back into the mixer when med-tech's caught up.
Now there's the seed of a good story! Contemporary of Joe or even Fargo returns to the streets after 50 years sleeping off a mild decapitation in the drawer next to Slab Tynan...
I've been working on it but it's too long for Zarjaz :(
Judge Adam Adamant...
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2017, 01:21:01 PM
Now there's the seed of a good story! Contemporary of Joe or even Fargo returns to the streets after 50 years sleeping off a mild decapitation in the drawer next to Slab Tynan...
But which Slab Tynan?
Quote from: 13school on 10 January, 2017, 11:59:17 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2017, 09:33:24 AM
The ascetic aspect to a Judge's life is pretty critical to the strip and the character: a judge receive no rewards for his service, except the honour of serving.
I always had the vague feeling that what stopped the Judges from using all the fancy life-extending technology was that they were basically a fairly conservative outfit ... "Giving crippled Judges giant robot claws and sending them off to the Academy of Law to scare the kids is the way it's always been done!"
It's totally Tommy
[1], but I remember being disappointed when Dredd got new peepers in
City Of The Damned. One of the reasons his blinding had such impact was we knew all personnel injured in the line of duty were entitled to was a stick and a teaching post.
Fitting Dredd for CCTV struck a bum note because it seemed like special treatment. Unless functional immortality becomes standard for all Justice Department employees, the events of
Carousel (Megazine 375) risk falling into the same category.
The idea of presenting
Carousel as no big deal was probably
(in part) to present it as business as usual, but it wouldn't have hurt to establish the technology and the practice as standard by showing a few pensioners getting a makeover in the months before
Oswinvasion [2].
[1] canon
[2] But if Hershey had announced staffing levels meant geriatric Judges were getting compulsory makeovers, we'd all have realised what was happening and started moaning in advance
Quote from: Frank on 10 January, 2017, 05:59:45 PM
Fitting Dredd for CCTV struck a bum note because it seemed like special treatment. Unless functional immortality becomes standard for all Justice Department employees, the events of Carousel (Megazine 375) risk falling into the same category.
Doesn't seem like any kind of immortality to me - the brain still ages and (in the real world) dementia is the leading cause of death, at 10% or so.
Asks that this thread is getting some very interesting discussions going. To the neysayers I think there is some steam left in this topic. I must admit that the senile Dredd brain transplanted into a new body would lent itself to some outrageous comedy and unnecessary deaths of perps!!🤔😵
Quote from: sheridan on 10 January, 2017, 06:15:46 PM
the brain still ages and (in the real world) dementia is the leading cause of death, at 10% or so.
Only if you count different kinds of cancer (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37972141) separately, and Dredd shook off the Big C like a sniffly cold.
Death Of A Legend and
Alzheimer's Block were 20 and 26 years ago, respectively - back when all the Carousel clinic could do to offset the effects of the aging process was sell you a slightly blurry mirror *.
* The only reason Tharg booked an appointment with Doc Carousel was to stop us moaning that a septugenarian couldn't take the punishment doled out to Dredd every week. I can't see us carping because a 90 year old Dredd can still remember where he left his keys.
Quote from: The dude on 10 January, 2017, 09:08:51 AM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 09 January, 2017, 11:20:04 PM
I can't help but think that this thread is a whole debate over nothing. Is the Dude's point really that he's miffed that Rebellion are keeping Dredd alive? If so, fundamentally, why?
I like reading Judge Dredd and am happy with the stories and it feels like a gripe without basis. Still, The Internet.
in rebuttal it can be argued that all the threads on this Forum are about nothing! This is afterall a fictional character that has no impact upon anything other than our entertainment. There are obviously enough people who wish to discuss this topic with some attempt at rationalising this whole age issue, because it is enjoyable to just ponder it for its own sake.
The why question what Rebellion are doing? Why not the editor or writers?
The Dredd RPG I run dealt with the issue of Dredd's rejuve directly (I'm going to kill him off). Rejuve treatment for someone of Dredd's age is spectacularly expensive and subject to the law of diminishing returns. He will require more expensive treatments more often as he gets older and the probability of degenerative failure increases over time.
So, in the version if MC1 I RPG in, Dredd is a significant budget header for Justice Dept. He's a symbol, and the council of five underwrite the expense. They simply don't do it for other, less storied judges.
In my RPG, Dredd is starting to show signs that the degeneration is kicking in. There are also the crop of younger judges who think HE is part of the problem; he's a throwback to an era that is over. The infallibility of the judge system has been disproved and they are starting to ask the question: Are we actually the best for MC1 or do we need to start preparing the ground for a return to some sort of democracy?
Anyway....my two cents.
That's an interesting argument. On the other hand, the fact that Total War, a pro-democracy terrorist group, were in league with the people who were responsible for Chaos Day, might have discredited democracy somewhat (not necessarily fairly, but still).
Quote from: Trout on 09 January, 2017, 05:01:09 PM
I'd love to see the Stupid Gun come back. Just saying.
You're in Canada, how could you tell?
Quote from: Proudhuff on 11 March, 2017, 02:22:05 PM
Quote from: Trout on 09 January, 2017, 05:01:09 PM
I'd love to see the Stupid Gun come back. Just saying.
You're in Canada, how could you tell?
I could take a glance at how the UK has been voting.
Who cares, any way they think of to keep him going is fine with me.
Quote from: Trout on 11 March, 2017, 02:34:25 PM
Quote from: Proudhuff on 11 March, 2017, 02:22:05 PM
Quote from: Trout on 09 January, 2017, 05:01:09 PM
I'd love to see the Stupid Gun come back. Just saying.
You're in Canada, how could you tell?
I could take a glance at how the UK has been voting.
Ouch! :lol:
Quote from: PDitta on 11 March, 2017, 01:21:56 PM
The Dredd RPG I run dealt with the issue of Dredd's rejuve directly (I'm going to kill him off). Rejuve treatment for someone of Dredd's age is spectacularly expensive and subject to the law of diminishing returns. He will require more expensive treatments more often as he gets older and the probability of degenerative failure increases over time.
As a matter of interest - which rules system are you using? One of the pre-existing JD RPG, or adapting something else? For the record, the pre-existing ones are GW (vaguely WFRP-based), D20, Traveller and the upcoming WOiN-based World of 2000AD game.