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Spoilers => Prog => Topic started by: Tjm86 on 23 April, 2022, 11:42:26 AM

Title: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Tjm86 on 23 April, 2022, 11:42:26 AM
1/ 

Reading "The Citadel" over the past few weeks has been a jarring experience.  On the surface there are aspects of the story that don't sit well.  As a tale based in the AW, the visuals seem more fitting with current Dredd rather than those we all know from Ezquerra's work in particular.  The cowardice and ineptitude of the Citi-Def contrasts with the actions of many as narrated in AW.  The cadets don't carry the same callous indifference that many pre-AW tales showed us. In short, a lot of details don't quite fit with what we remember of MC1 at that time.

Maybe it is being currently immersed in research into an assignment relating to Trauma and memory but going back over the story from the perspective of issues regarding memory puts a different spin on this.  The reconstructive nature of autobiographical memory, imperfections, distortions, guesses and gaps ... all for normal memory.  Traumatic memory fits within this framework but there is a lot of research into how suggestion and mental health issues can add to the complexity.

So coming at the story from this perspective, it becomes a far more interesting piece.  It feels like perhaps Wagner is trying to say something about how we understand Dredd himself and his world.  Taking us back to what is considered an iconic story that is often used as a gold-standard for judging others is possibly intentional.  Certainly it would be interesting to have a conversation with him about some of these ideas.
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Tjm86 on 23 April, 2022, 11:43:02 AM
2/ 

Consider how the narrative is framed.  This is a 'confessional / revelational' story purporting to reveal some earth-shattering 'truth' about Dredd.  The recollection is being provided by an allegedly former cadet who has been kept in solitary for decades.  This Lector-esque figure is supposedly so dangerous he is fully restrained even in isolation.  He claims to know truths that the Judges don't want revealed.

The question of validity is posed by these features.  What is Winterton really recalling?  How accurate is that recollection?  What disturbances are affecting his disclosure?  After all, this is not Winterton's memory, rather it is his retelling of events.  It is clear that he has an agenda but do the Judges have one too in terms of letting him have this opportunity?

Within the framework of the questionable nature of memory, many of the features of the story make more sense.  Details such as the fact that Dredd looks more like modern Dredd than AW Dredd, the critical behaviour of the cadets, the cowardice of Citi-Def fighters ... are these actually reflections of Winterton's mind?  Is Winterton projecting his own resentments and behaviour on to the characters that populate his story?

The way he relates Dredd's behaviour and language is telling too.  Dredd has always been larger than life.  There has always been a callous aspect to him.  Think about one of the more memorable lines from AW ... "The citizens?  What makes you think they'll be interested?"  There's a level of jingoism and hyperbole that doesn't quite fit though.  "That's a chance I'll take.  We go down fighting or we go down anyway, dammit!"  Granted there are times when Dredd spoke that way during the AW but largely there is an air of overwhelming restraint.  He talks of giving Citi-Def troops a chance to strike back.  His response to please not to nuke EM-1 is a blunt "request denied."  He saves the bravado for the enemy leadership.

Is the clone the revelation we are led to believe it is?  Bear in mind that Winterton has recounted events that he could not have witnessed, conversations he could not plausibly have overheard.  It is clear that he is adding in material from his own 'imagination.'  So the question of what parts of the story are really 'true' are constantly in question. 
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Tjm86 on 23 April, 2022, 11:43:37 AM
3/

The two Dredds also reflect different personifications – the hero and the fascist.  On the one hand we have a Dredd that is rigid, unbending and obscenely brutal.  On the other a Dredd that is critical and righteous.  Dredd's execution of the burning judge is in keeping with his treatment of the rad-sickness refugees.  Clone-Dredd's declaration regarding his judgement of Dredd's action is in keeping with his attitude towards the law.  Yet they are presented as being in conflict. 

This seems like a contradiction.  Yet within the context of a 'dubious memory' it makes more sense.  Were there really two Dredds or is this Winterton's projection of his conflicts about who Dredd is to him?  Is he processing his ideas about the way Dredd's behaviour affected him by splitting the man literally as well as figuratively into two separate individuals?

It would certainly shed light on the 'murder' of Clone-Dredd.  The brutal zealot throws his righteous clone literally to the beast?  Any trace of a just figure is erased.  All that is left is the supposedly psychotic arbiter of Mega City Justice.  Is this a reflection of the way in which Winterton's psychosis is linked to his experiences back in the war?

Arguably much of this interpretation rests on how Winterton is presented within the story.  It is clear that he is a disturbed individual but we don't know why.  As I've already said, much of the framing renders his narration problematic.  It is hard to know what to trust, indeed if any of what he is saying can be trusted.  Is this a true memory or is it the product of years of isolation?  Was Winterton ever actually there?  Was he ever actually a cadet?
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Tjm86 on 23 April, 2022, 11:44:13 AM
4/

All of this raises the question of what Wagner is actually trying to say in this story, as I mentioned earlier.  All of this talk of narrative, memory and perception applies equally to us as readers.  Like Winterton, we've been immersed in Dredd's world for decades but also removed from it.  Our memories of earlier stories frame our attitudes towards them.  The Apocalypse War above all others seems particular resonant.  Especially when you consider that it forms a part of what is generally considered the "Golden Age" of Tooth with the introduction of so many iconic characters and the work of so many influential creative teams.

What of how we view Dredd himself?  He is the supreme arbiter of a fascist system, upholding a totalitarian state in an utterly inhospitable world.  His 'subjects' are simultaneously free and oppressed.  The law clearly delineates their freedom just as its suddenly and seemingly arbitrary application brutally constrains it.  They are able to fill their copious free time with whatever fad or fancy they desire so long as it does not attract the attention of the Judges.  Dredd is the figurehead of this system, the ultimate symbol of its excesses.
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Tjm86 on 23 April, 2022, 11:44:39 AM
5/

Different writers have attempted to tell stories set in the world Wagner and Ezquerra created with varying degrees of success.  When we read these stories, our appreciation relies as much on how Dredd appears in those stories as events within the story do.  Dredd is never completely the same in these, reflecting the understanding of the creative team as well as us as readers.

Recent discussions around 'mega-events' in Dredd have questioned the lasting impact of each one.  Bearing in mind that Dredd is a collective creation ... a product of numerous writers and artists down through the years, but also a product of reader reception ... the question of whether there is one 'real' Dredd (yes, even as a fictional character) is moot.  Is there a danger though to holding on to our notions of who Dredd might be, of what is possible for him as a character and what his world should look like?

In 'killing off' Clone-Dredd as Wagner has, is he posing the question of what might be acceptable to us as readers?  In presenting Winterton's 'story' as he does, is he challenging us to reflect on our 'sacred cows' and what we are willing to accept for Dredd's world?  Are we willing to 'kill off' our own 'True Dredd' in order to allow the character to evolve and endure?

The above is being written before the final part of the tale has been read.  It will be interesting to see what revelations and questions it brings.  How many of the above questions will be answered?
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Magnetica on 23 April, 2022, 12:44:43 PM
I think the final part does provide the answers you are looking for.
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Tjm86 on 23 April, 2022, 01:33:55 PM
Maybe but it looks like I'm going to have to wait until monday or tuesday when my subscriber prog turns up.

:-(
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Richard on 23 April, 2022, 01:40:17 PM
[spoiler]This changes nothing.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Tjm86 on 23 April, 2022, 11:16:25 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 April, 2022, 03:14:45 PMThought experiment with The Citadel: if 2000 AD had somehow accidentally left off the creator credits for these weeks, what would you think? Personally, it didn't click with me at all. Even taking into consideration the unreliable witness angle, it just felt a bit off to me.

I hope that this is not a problem but I felt like it needed to be brought back here.  I mean, there are two issues here that I try to address:
- the author of the piece in question;
- issues around witness validity.

For me personally the former is a major factor.  Then again I find myself heavily influenced by the likes of Foucault.  So the fact that Wagner is ascribed as author of this tale is something that I need to attend to.  If I'm completely honest, my initial reaction was the same as IP's: there is something odd here.  What is Wagner saying?

I would say that this ties into questions about witness validity:
  Wagner is narrating Winterton's recollections = this is a true and accurate account of events.

Except this is an assumption on our part and brings us back to the point I find myself faced with by this tale: how much of this is about Wagner challenging us as readers to accept what may be coming?

Magnetica suggests that when my subscriber copy does finally land on Monday or Tuesday (post arrived today ... ironically, a volume of Foucault lectures on parrhesia ... truth statements ... so it's not a delivery problem) a lot of my questions will be answered.  I'm not so confident though.

Personally I'm looking forward to the final instalment all the more now.  I was in IndigoPrime's camp with regard to this story.  Even the artwork was problematic for me, too much modern 'Dredd'.  Now I'm not so sure.  I'm open to different interpretations.  To me the whole point of the 'unreliable witness' motif is to foreground these issues.  Ultimately there is only one person who can answer these questions.

What it does mean though is that I find myself looking forward to the next prog delivery in a way that I have not in a long time (ironically dating back to the time of events described in the story ...).
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Tjm86 on 25 April, 2022, 04:33:10 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 23 April, 2022, 12:44:43 PM
I think the final part does provide the answers you are looking for.

.. and finally it lands.  Point taken.  So the final part draws out many of the threads mentioned regarding memory and reliability.  Another viewpoint is offered that purports to show the 'truth' and offer another interpretation of events.

The proof of the alternate theory is a subtle throwaway visual.  A cursory reading would possibly miss it.

What does it change?  I think Richard has a point.  There is nothing dramatic, nothing that is likely to ripple out.  The list of those who know the 'truth' is incredibly short.

I suppose the same could be said for us as readers.  As we move forward will we continue to struggle with changes to MC1 and Dredd?  What I would say though is that it has been a more interesting tale than I originally felt it was.
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Proudhuff on 26 April, 2022, 11:38:02 AM
QI stuff Tjm86.
I won't see my subbie til at least Thursday evening (about 9pm roughly), so will wait to comment
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Magnetica on 26 April, 2022, 03:20:26 PM
I guess one th8ng it could change is[spoiler] East Meg One has been cloning Dredd and potentially other Judges and infiltrating them into Justice Dept. And we have yet to see them....but it's 40 years on at this point.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 April, 2022, 03:39:35 PM
Dolman turns out to be a sleeper agent!
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Woolly on 26 April, 2022, 06:00:31 PM
The Citadel is a victim of Tharg's over-enthusiastic plugging in the Prog. We all seem to have been waiting for one of Wagner's shake-ups, and naturally are a bit disappointed when it didn't happen.

But taken on it's merits as just a Dredd 9-parter then it's great! Nice, solid, Wagner action, and beautifully drawn by the major new talent Dan Cornwell. I don't think we were ever meant to dissect this one looking for meaning.

It'd be good to know if John Wagner has any thoughts on Tharg's selling of this story (assuming he cares about that sort of thing!).
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Richard on 26 April, 2022, 06:32:04 PM
Quote from: Woolly on 26 April, 2022, 06:00:31 PM
But taken on it's merits as just a Dredd 9-parter then it's great!
If you think that's good, wait til you see the 10-parter version!
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Adamskilad on 27 April, 2022, 12:50:00 PM
There's a couple of panels missing from the end of the story. Chopra walks into the next room where Dredd is standing with arms crossed.

"He buy it?" asks Dredd.

"He bought it, comrade," replies Chopra.
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Funt Solo on 27 April, 2022, 05:42:37 PM
One of the issues I'm struggling with, in terms of accepting The Citadel as being set during The Apocalypse War, is that the design aesthetic doesn't match up. The Sovs are using a bunch of equipment we never saw during the original depiction, so it seems like a visual reboot.
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Richard on 27 April, 2022, 05:45:24 PM
Artistic licence. Dredd doesn't really wear a new uniform in every story, it's just different artists' depictions of the same hardware.
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 27 April, 2022, 07:50:36 PM
Quote from: Richard on 27 April, 2022, 05:45:24 PM
Artistic licence. Dredd doesn't really wear a new uniform in every story, it's just different artists' depictions of the same hardware.

Dredd: Stomm, is it Brendan McCarthy week again already...? Have I really gotta wear this gruddamn helmet? It looks like a drokking wok!
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Funt Solo on 27 April, 2022, 09:30:32 PM
Helmet's encased by bumpy lines again! Reporting another case of acute Ezquerra to med-div!
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: McNulty on 27 April, 2022, 10:17:55 PM
[spoiler]Upon reading this story I was hit by several aspects that confronted me. Winterton's version was told in a plausible way throughout this story. Everything he told the priest could have happened as he stated. Even as a long time reader of 2000AD it has been canon that Dredd can be hard hearted especially in times of crises. However the murder of his clone was a red flag to me. This was completely out of character for me given the motive of trying to silence someone who was going to report him or simply because he didn't like him. Then Winterton goes off the rails and attacks the priest, bringing into question his veracity as a witness by demonstrating insanity.
Then we have Chopra's testimony of the event. Dredd killed his clone because he surmised that the Sovs had cloned him and were wanting their Dredd to infiltrate the Mega city one forces. They had planted him already within the Citadel to gain information from the captive judges there and now saw their chance to have an agent within the higher command structure. Dredd's reasoning was sound and again everything he said was plausible. The reasons he stated for suspecting his clone made sense but crucially, we don't get to find out if he was correct. We don't get to see if the clone's badge had a tracker on it.
So what are we to make of this story. We are told by Chopra that Winterton was made a judge but his experiences and his injuries drove him increasingly insane to the point where he had to be imprisoned and silenced. But according to Winterton he was never made into a judge and was imprisoned because he wouldn't do what he was told and play along with the official version of what happened. What you believe is based on who you believe Chopra or Winterton. As a reader, we have seen Winterton attack a defenceless man and laugh hysterically afterward, which surely would give us doubts of his truthfulness. Chopra on the other hand is telling a version where Drerdd does kill his clone, but in order to stop a potential Sov infiltration that could tip the balance of the war in favour of the enemy.
So what do I believe? Looking at both stories I can only say that both versions are at least plausible. The events as they are told all happened in both stories. it is only the motives and the perceptions that are open to interpretation. So who is right. I find myself considering these two points...
If the Sovs had actually captured Judge Dredd during the war, they would know what an important person he was in Justice Department. After all, he has personally foiled two earlier Sov plots against Mega City One before the war had even started. Knowing this, is it likely that upon capturing Dredd would the Sovs had sent him to the Citadel? Or would they have tried to get information from him through interegation or torture? Would they have tried to use brain surgery on him to turn him into their puppet like Griffin, or put him on television in a show trial to show the World that they had him and were to execute him in order to demoralise their opponents? If this is the case, then Dredd's theory that his clone was sent to impersonate him in order to gain information from the judges in the citadel seems more likely.
But there is an issue with this. The Sov's cloning technology was far inferior to Mega City One's science . Sov clones were apt to various levels of genetic flaws. We saw this with the War Marshall himself as he had to wear special goggles in order to function because of his weak eyes. Even later clones after the war were not much better as with the wheelchair bound defector. Even if the Sovs did manage to obtain Dredd or Fargo's genetic structure, how did they manage to create such a convincing clone of Dredd? How was it produced. If the Sov's had acquired Mega city one cloning technology as well as Dredd's genetic material then that might answer this question but if they did, why is their cloning so inferior all these years later?
So what do I believe? Speaking as someone who read the original run of the Apocalypse War at the time, I want to believe Chopra's version of events. Despite the plot hole, I believe when Dredd threw his clone to his death, he believed he was disposing of a dangerous Sov infiltrator. I'm sure some will not agree with me, but the way this story has been presented and unless something new is said canonically, that is what I will believe. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: IndigoPrime on 27 April, 2022, 10:36:42 PM
Quote[spoiler]We don't get to see if the clone's badge had a tracker on it.[/spoiler]
I'd say at the very least that's inferred by the artwork.
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: AlexF on 29 April, 2022, 02:56:35 PM
Deeply impressed by your analysis and line of questions, Tjm! I tend to read Wagner stories with an eye mostly to the surface level, because he's a world class entertainer. But I think you've hit on something not so far below the surface when you talk about us long-term readers being stand ins for both Winterton and Chopra, where we look back on what Dredd used to be like, is like now, and 'should' be in either time period.

There's another thread going about if Dredd is hero or villain and this story is a classic example of him being both, not least because we get to see two versions of Dredd behainvg slightly differently. 'Our' Dredd is heroic in the straight reading of the story, [spoiler]where the clone was a Sov, Dredd intuited it, then it was confirmed moments before his accidental death[/spoiler]. But he's also a villain because his treatment of the cadets and Cit-Def alike is SO very harsh we can't quite bear it - even if we might sneakily think that it's justified in a war setting.

And Dredd is arguably a villain even more clearly in how Winterton is treated. Whether Winterton's version of the story is true or not, they chose to lock him away for 40 years for spurious 'mustn't do anything to upset the power of the state' reasons.

But also there's nothing specific to this story that challenges Dredd's world as such, it's more of a ripping yarn with a reminder that the Judges like to control the narrative as much as any given Totalitarian state.
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Richard on 29 April, 2022, 03:51:40 PM
Quotethey chose to lock him away for 40 years for spurious 'mustn't do anything to upset the power of the state' reasons.

Well and also because "they found him chewing through the neck of a first offender."
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Proudhuff on 30 April, 2022, 04:22:03 PM
Quote from: Adamskilad on 27 April, 2022, 12:50:00 PM
There's a couple of panels missing from the end of the story. Chopra walks into the next room where Dredd is standing with arms crossed.

"He buy it?" asks Dredd.

"He bought it, comrade," replies Chopra.

Yasss!
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Tjm86 on 07 May, 2022, 08:05:51 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 27 April, 2022, 10:36:42 PM
Quote[spoiler]We don't get to see if the clone's badge had a tracker on it.[/spoiler]
I'd say at the very least that's inferred by the artwork.

More than inferred, surely.  TBH though I missed the detail on a first read.  The colouring makes it blend a bit into the background brickwork.  I read that as deliberate, linking to the idea of Winterton's questionable memory.  What is remembered is what is attended to ...

Quote from: Funt Solo on 27 April, 2022, 05:42:37 PM
One of the issues I'm struggling with, in terms of accepting The Citadel as being set during The Apocalypse War, is that the design aesthetic doesn't match up. The Sovs are using a bunch of equipment we never saw during the original depiction, so it seems like a visual reboot.

The artwork was one aspect of the story I had an issue with on the first reading.  Like I said, the visuals seem more in keeping with modern than early-80's Dredd.  Thinking about it from the point of view of memory issues though, it does make sense.  I know it's over-analysing but ...

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 27 April, 2022, 07:50:36 PM
Quote from: Richard on 27 April, 2022, 05:45:24 PM
Artistic licence. Dredd doesn't really wear a new uniform in every story, it's just different artists' depictions of the same hardware.

Dredd: Stomm, is it Brendan McCarthy week again already...? Have I really gotta wear this gruddamn helmet? It looks like a drokking wok!

IIRC there was a strip about that once up a time.  Want to say Fabry or Pugh on art.  Thought it was Prog 500 but got that one wrong.
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Proudhuff on 10 May, 2022, 11:49:44 AM
The Sov-Dredd did seem to be a bit of a 'throw away' (sorry) plot angle and not fully thought through.

I could be totally mis-remembering, but didn't the big W used to run stories by some or our now sadly departed boarders to Mega check them?
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: maryanddavid on 10 May, 2022, 12:50:03 PM
There was one other source of good quality
Dredd clones outside of MC1 at the time, the Judda.
They had no love for MC1, its plausible that they supplied the clone.
.
Title: Re: Dredd: The Citadel
Post by: Richard on 10 May, 2022, 04:23:39 PM
QuoteThe Sov-Dredd did seem to be a bit of a 'throw away' (sorry) plot angle and not fully thought through.
I don't see that. The whole story was building up to something along those lines from the first episode. Wintertime said he had some dirt on Dredd from the beginning.

As for the Judda, they wanted to take over the city for themselves. It wouldn't be in their interest to help someone else do it. Nor would the Sovs spare them, knowing what their agenda was.