So my ongoing torture of these boards with a seemingly endless stream of vote based tournaments continues and next in line is
Artist Ryder Cup - Current vs Classic
- or ARC-CvC as I might start to type it as I get lazy*!
What is that I hear you cry. Well I've mentioned this concept a lot and basically it's a chance to see whether the old truism that the art in 2000ad was better in the good ol' days is true. And assuming that holds (I'm 99.8% sure it will) just how wide the margin is.
The idea that the old stuff is better fascinates me as I'm not sure it's true. The problem is the art in the early issues played such a part in defining what we love, I think it would be near impossible for new material to top the old for the long term reader. I certainly fall victim to this. I adore the current crop of artists, I'm sure a good proportion are as good if not better than the artists of my youth, but ask me to say who is better than Mike McMahon and all of a sudden I clam up, get a little nervous and finally stutter out "err henry... flint... probably..." wondering if I'm saying that just to make sure I support current endeavours (I'm not Henry Flint is the definitive 2000ad artist).
I'd love to do a blind test and give examples of art, new and old, to a host of none readers and ask them which is best and see what those not immersed say... alas I can't do that here and the closest I can get to is TOURNEY!!!!
So here, over the course of a standard number of posts I'll lay out the format of the tourney. The rules, for what they are. A NEW VOTING SYSTEM - yes I loved the Dredd Ranking Tourney so much I decided to try something else a little different. A way to ignore the new voting system if you think it's rubbish, or can't be bothered and anything else that comes to mind.
This one will kick Monday 3rd May with a fair wind.
*If I was less lazy I'd no doubt come up with a much smarter acronym than that - its so close to archive
This will be quite interesting but again thanks for all your efforts !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 28 April, 2021, 08:27:48 AM
So here, over the course of a standard number of posts I'll lay out the format of the tourney. The rules, for what they are. A NEW VOTING SYSTEM - yes I loved the Dredd Ranking Tourney so much I decided to try something else a little different. A way to ignore the new voting system if you think it's rubbish, or can't be bothered and anything else that comes to mind.
Huzzah! If there's one thing I can definitely get excited about it's very slightly different methods of counting things!
NB Actually serious. Working out infinitesimal improvements to the way we add the same things up is the thing I like about my job.
Quote from: I, Cosh on 28 April, 2021, 09:22:20 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 28 April, 2021, 08:27:48 AM
So here, over the course of a standard number of posts I'll lay out the format of the tourney. The rules, for what they are. A NEW VOTING SYSTEM - yes I loved the Dredd Ranking Tourney so much I decided to try something else a little different. A way to ignore the new voting system if you think it's rubbish, or can't be bothered and anything else that comes to mind.
Huzzah! If there's one thing I can definitely get excited about it's very slightly different methods of counting things!
NB Actually serious. Working out infinitesimal improvements to the way we add the same things up is the thing I like about my job.
Oh christ its not that interesting - its just a bit different - I might have over stated this!
Why the Ryder Cup - new Tourney Format
I don't like golf, let's just get that said off the bat... or club... whatever.
When running the artist tourneys I designed them to very deliberately to allow modern artists to get their due. But all the time I was wondering how person x in the Current would do against person y in the Classic, questioning why I needed to separate them votes out, Classic and Current. Just how strong and real is my perception that there is a preference for Classic artists and assuming it is a thing (I still think it is) now strong is that preference? It struck me there was a simple way to test that - like 'singles match play' in the Ryder Cup.
There are two teams playing in the tourney, the Classic Artists and the Current Artists - the winner of individual ties don't really matter (well ish) , it's which team gets the most points that determines which team wins the tourney.
There will be 32 ties in the tourney each consisting of a current artist playing off against one classic artist and while some individual ties might be one sided, hopefully we'd have enough ties for things to balance out over all. The winner of each tie, scores a point for their side, Current or Classic. Draws get ½ point to each side, no need for a casting vote (I get to vote for once!).
So this is going to be a simple tourney, no rounds, no qualifying (we've done that already) just 32 straight head to heads and as we go on we'll get an ongoing score between Classic and Current.
Each tie will be drawn at random, so no seeding or anything like that. Again over the 32 ties that will balance out I figure.
Does that make sense?
The points scored across the 32 ties will give us a simple metric of how many ties the current crop of artists can take off the classic crop of artists. While I fully expect Classic to take the tourney the question I have is by how much.
When we get to voting I'll explain how I plan to introduce a second metric which will be a little more fine tuned...
Who are the 'players' for each side?Well we've done this already. I've used the 32 artists that qualified for each of the Favourite Arts Tourneys back in November - well I've allowed myself one indulgence (per team) - see if you can spot them.
I'll add a post with each 'Team'.
Current Artists Team = QuoteLet's talk Current ART Droids. These are Droids who are still active in the Prog. So those who've done a series, significant number of Dredds, or Cliff Robinson (see notes elsewhere!). I've used Prog 2000 as a cut off point [the one from 2016 that is], or the equivalent Meg 376(ish). These are Droids that we'd not be too surprised, though we'd be delighted to see gracing the Prog at any point still. There may be other reasons why, alas, we know a Droid's work for Tharg has finished, these will be in the Classic section, even if they have had a series since Prog 2000.
Boo Cook
Brendan McCarthy
Chris Weston
Cliff Robinson
Clint Langley
Colin MacNeil
D'Israeli
Dan Cornwell
David Roach
David Taylor
Dom Reardon
Henry Flint
INJ Culbard
Jake Lynch
John Burns
John Higgins
Lee Carter
Leigh Gallagher
Mark Harrison
Neil Googe
Nick Percival
Patrick Goddard
Paul Marshall
Phil Winslade
PJ Holden
Richard Elson
Simon Coleby
Simon Davis
Simon Fraser
Staz Johnson
Steve Yeowell
Tieran Trevallion
Sounds great Colin, should cause plenty of discussion a la the Dredd epic tourney!
One question - will it include a round for classic McMahon vs. modern McMahon? I'm a big fan of Howler myself....
Quote from: abelardsnazz on 28 April, 2021, 05:53:47 PM
One question - will it include a round for classic McMahon vs. modern McMahon? I'm a big fan of Howler myself....
Each artist only once. If they qualify for Current and Classic, Current trumps Classic.
And to follow that theme
Classic Artists Team = QuoteSo the divide I went for was Classic, essentially artists who we don't really expect to appear in the Prog or Meg anytime soon. Whose work for Tharg seems to be done, the odd cover, or one off appearance aside. Alas some we know won't be adding to their body of work as they have retired or sadly passed away.
Alan Davis
Andy Clarke
Anthony Williams
Arthur Ranson
Brett Ewins
Brian Bolland
Bryan Talbot
Cam Kennedy
Carl Critchlow
Carlos Ezquerra
Colin Wilson
Dave Gibbons
Edmund Bagwell
Frazer Irving
Glenn Fabry
Greg Staples
Ian Gibson
Jesus Redondo
Jock
Jim Baikie
John Hicklenton
John Ridgway
Kev O'Neill
Kev Walker
Massimo Belardinelli
Mike McMahon
Peter Doherty
Ron Smith
Sean Phillips
Simon Bisley
Simon Harrison
Steve Dillon
The answer is still City of the Dammed.
John McCrea & Will Simpson strangely absent!
Humm..... norn iron block will nit be happy...
Jock, classic?
Me, old!
Quote from: BPP on 28 April, 2021, 10:51:55 PM
John McCrea & Will Simpson strangely absent!
Humm..... norn iron block will nit be happy...
There's a spreadsheet for that. We had a round of qualifying ahead of the Tourneys late last year and rather than repeat that process I've just reused it. There's a host of wonderful artists who didn't make it. I have allowed myself two switches as a cheeky organiser bonus but other than that left them alone.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rJuOcq5ImJDTY8AwcAek57yr7P6rF8M4hedoQlPzRW4/edit?usp=drivesdk (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rJuOcq5ImJDTY8AwcAek57yr7P6rF8M4hedoQlPzRW4/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Voting in the Ryder Cup
Voting will be a little different this time:
Essentially rather than a binary a over b, each voter will have 5 votes to distribute as they please. NO HALF MARKS though, only whole numbers.
So if Current Artist A is MILES better than Classic Artist A you can award all 5 votes to Current Artist A = 5 : 0
If Current Artist B is a LOT better than Classic Artist B, but you want to give a nod to Classic Artist B then maybe you'd go for a 4 : 1 split
If it's really tight and there's a hair's breadth between them maybe you'll go Current Artist C - 3 votes, Classic Artist C - 2 votes = 3: 2 split
NO HALF MARKS whole numbers only, but you can allocate your 5 votes between the two options in that tie as you like, but have to state a preference. I suppose you don't even have to use all 5 votes if you don't want to.
If you can't be arsed with that faff - that's fine just name the artist you prefer but I'll only award them 3 votes - none to the other artist.
Artist with the highest number of votes wins that round and scores a point for their team in the overall score.
Why the new voting system?
I thought the fact that 'Dredd Epics Ranked Better' had a few differences made it fun and kept things fresh and while we won't always find ways to do that I'd like to change the way folks vote here, just to spice things up - let's see how it goes.
This will also give us another metric, a slightly subtler one. The team that wins the tourney (Classic or Current) will be based on whose won the most ties as in Ryder Cup BUT I guess it's possible for that team to get fewer votes over all if they win their ties (more of them) by a small margin and the other teams wins (fewer of them) were all by a wide margin.
This will give us a more refined score and also allow those that get a tough draw, so some poor beggar will get Carlos! To still contribute one aspect of their teams overall score, at least in one respect. So a lesser artist might get battered by Carlos, Henry Flint however might run him close in votes - everyone votes 3 : 2 to Carlos - even though he loses every individual vote he actually gather a lot of votes overall for the Current Team.
Overall, whatever happens Carlos gains one point for the Classic Team in the Tourney as a whole - but the votes score under that could be very different depending on who he draws.
Does that make sense?
Anyway cos the voting is more faffy we'll just have one tiea day. Over 32 ties that's 6ish weeks for this one (I'll skip weekends as ever). Each vote will be 3 days as normal.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 29 April, 2021, 11:17:38 AM
Why the new voting system?
[yadda yadda]
Does that make sense?
Nope, not a lick.
:lol:
Quote from: Dog Deever on 29 April, 2021, 11:41:14 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 29 April, 2021, 11:17:38 AM
Why the new voting system?
[yadda yadda]
Does that make sense?
Nope, not a lick.
:lol:
Well don't even try this one then!
Rules(ish)Look this is for Fun (I've copied and pasted this, from a copy and paste... and done edits, so ya know if this feels familiar...) this means the rules are what the rules are. Guidelines to help us all chug along and enjoy this and find some consistency and understanding of what the heck we are doing.
1. MOST IMPORTANTLY - any artist who appears in these votes is a better artist than we'll ever be and so even if you really don't like someone's work (which is fine) keep it lovely like I know you can.
1a. Art is massively subjective so we won't agree on what makes good art, but we're talking favourites here. So by all means disagree with each other, be surprised about folks' decisions, debate and chew over, but be lovely and remember you ain't going to change anyone's mind about whose art they prefer so why try!
1b. Runner privilege means that yes I do whinge like no one's business when votes don't go the way I want them to... I need to learn to get over these things!
2. I will start one thread a day - Monday to Friday - all you need to do is allocate 5 votes between them (as whole numbers) to say who is your favourite and by how much.
2a. We are only considering work for Tharg here, so Prog and Meg - defo counted. I don't however give a fig if you think the art on Marshall Law or Skrull Kill Krew or The Filth is the best EVVVEEEERRRRRR, it's not for Tharg so we shouldn't consider it here - though you can of course discuss it.
2b. When we consider sister publications it gets a bit fuzzy, so I take a much more casual - decide for yourself - attitude. For me I'd say Crisis, yeah sure include that, Starlord and Tornado, you know why not. Revolver... maybe, I wouldn't, but if you do, heck how the hell will I know?!?
3. For each tie simply type the allocation of your 5 votes for each Art Droid so for example:
Woolly 4 : Colin YNWA 1
- feel free to say what you will after that, but it will help me (being lazy and all) if you type the names and the votes at the top of the comment - or make it clear otherwise by adding Bold tags.
3a. If you can't be bothered with that, just name the artist you prefer - clearly - and I'll award them a default 3 votes (the other artist getting nowt)
4. I will count up the votes for each artist in each thread after 3 days of it starting and announce the winner of the tie, the score for the tourney overall...
Classic Artist X points : Current Artists Y points
...Points for that round...
Woolly 428 : Colin YNWA 1
And the overall votes score
Classic Artists bigger X votes : Current Artists bigger Y votes
5. In the event of a tie both teams score ½ point each.
6. We are voting for our favourite, so not whose had the most impact, or is most important. There are no scales for objectively who's the best artist. It's art, it's whose stuff you like to gaze on the most. We won't agree and there are no right answers (except where I say there is so I can bitch and moan about some artist I love not getting as many votes as I think they deserve.)
For example I love Carlos' art. I really do. He's in my top ten. Is he in my top 5... no. So there, see I've said it, it's okay not to vote for Carlos when the time comes, however wonderful the man.
7. I'm winging this so anything thing I've forgotten I'll make up as we go along.
See you Monday when this all kicks off...
This one starts tomorrow folks - look forward to seeing you there.
As a little excerise when I had a break from doing some Tourney prep this morning - need to get ahead so I can plan what's next and after that... as a thought excerise and with some far off future tourney in mind I decided to try to rank all 64 artists in this competition in order of my preference.
If you want to ruin your morning and give yourself a spliting headache give it a go... its not a relaxing break let me tell you!
I think the Ryder cup tournament illustrates to me I can't - I've abstained from a few rounds not from apathy but from inability to qualify which of two great artists I prefer. At best I can lump people into 4 vague groups of gods / greats / goods / gash and tbh at least 60% are in the first 2 groups and 90 in the first 3. 2000ad is just blessed with amazing art. I never understood the whole yank 'artists don't push the needle' debate from a few years ago - to me the art, essentially the b&w line art IS the needle. A great genre tale I enjoy but the actual art - god I love that shit... a manic page of henry, a weird out of Harrison, a classic unworldly belardinelli, some Carlos black dots..... I love that shit to my core.
2000ads artists rock.