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Spoilers => Prog => : Mattofthespurs 15 September, 2012, 08:59:56 AM

: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Mattofthespurs 15 September, 2012, 08:59:56 AM
Starts well with a beautiful wraparound A.B.C Warriors cover. Lots of shooting and general mayhem. Good times.

Judge Dredd. Not a fan of the artwork. Coming after the terrific art work of Weston last week this was always going to suffer in comparison. I don't like it. I want that one.

Brass Sun. Enjoying this so far.Beautiful double page spread.

A.B.C Warriors. The art by Langley is perfectly suited to a story practically dominated by robots. Jolly good script too. The story that most wants me to read next weeks prog.

Terror Tales. "Blackspot" As a horror fan I really enjoyed this. Not overly clever but fun none the less and does not out stay it's welcome.

Grey Area. I enjoy this but the artwork is all a bit 'static' for my tastes.

A good prog that alleviates some of the hangover from last week's party.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Darren Stephens 15 September, 2012, 09:51:59 AM
I've not read it yet, but the artwork on Dredd looks very "pixelated" in my prog. Surely not intentional?  :-\
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: James Stacey 15 September, 2012, 09:54:30 AM
Is it just me who's Dredd strip looks like it was printed using low res thumbnails of the art ? I assume it's not a new style of PJs to make everything look like a cut scene from an Amiga game?

Edit- its not just you Darren.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: pauljholden 15 September, 2012, 09:55:57 AM
Unfortunately, owing to technical reasons beyond my comprehension, the art on Dredd came out mushy - sorry if that's interefered with anyone's enjoyment of the strip.

(Mind you, if you don't like the art cause it's not Chris Weston, there's naught I can do about that...)

Here's page one in its less blurry original...

(http://www.pauljholden.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/dredd_payback_0001.jpg)
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Darren Stephens 15 September, 2012, 10:02:43 AM
Ah, that's a real shame, PJ. Looks like cracking work under the blur. My eyes aren't great anyway, so it's not detracting too much! :D
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: James Stacey 15 September, 2012, 10:09:02 AM
Nope, the art (and story) are still great, it's just rare to see a lapse in production.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Keef Monkey 15 September, 2012, 10:19:27 AM
The art is lovely PJ, but yeah, I'd popped on here to see if anyone else's had been scanned a bit squiffy! Look forward to sitting down and giving it a proper read.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: IndigoPrime 15 September, 2012, 10:43:42 AM
Clearly an error in production or at the printer. This is crap for PJ, but also terrible timing in general, given the movie being out. Sod's law.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: The Enigmatic Dr X 15 September, 2012, 11:08:00 AM
I've not read it yet, but the artwork on Dredd looks very "pixelated" in my prog. Surely not intentional?  :-\

Yep. There seems to be some kind of reproduction problem and the art suffers for it.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Jim_Campbell 15 September, 2012, 11:17:32 AM
Rigellian Hotshot for the repro droid who either didn't update the broken links to the art files, or left low-res positionals in place!

(Seriously… does anyone use low-res positionals any more? I mean, back when we were using 180MHz PPC processors and 32Mb of RAM, fair enough, but these days?)

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Pete Wells 15 September, 2012, 11:32:45 AM
WTF? On my copy, not only is the Dredd wrong, the big, beautiful DPS in Brass Sun has an image from another magazine ghosting over it!?!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Jim_Campbell 15 September, 2012, 11:34:26 AM
WTF? On my copy, not only is the Dredd wrong, the big, beautiful DPS in Brass Sun has an image from another magazine ghosting over it!?!

Might just be a one-off -- mine's OK. Sounds the print droids are in severe need of an overhaul, though!

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: IndigoPrime 15 September, 2012, 11:39:53 AM
Actually had a read now. A decent Dredd, depsite art issues, a typically Smith one-shot (I mean this in a good way), and Brass Sun could easily be this generation's Nikolai Dante. Not so keen on the rest—Grey Area for me is OK filler and I can no longer bring myself to care about anything in ABC Warriors—but a strong issue overall, I thought.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Spaceghost 15 September, 2012, 11:48:23 AM
Oooh, that Dredd looks terrible. The Damage Report is all about how Robo-KEEF and How-LE have been left to 'ride this prog home to the printers' in the absence of Cyber-Matt and PYE-01.

Way to grass yourselves up lads!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: flip-r mk2 15 September, 2012, 11:49:02 AM
Blurry Dredd and no ghosting on Brass Sun in my copy.


filip
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Tjm86 15 September, 2012, 12:17:40 PM
Pity the Dredd was spoiled by pixelation.  Wonder if someone had sent the clickwheel file to the printers in error?  ( If the art is sorted out for non subscription distribution then I hope they sort out a proper copy for the rest.  Will check Smiths in the week. ) Otherwise an interesting little filler.  Number of interesting little snippets pointing to the long game ('now that Hershey has established her no kill policy').  Final panel was a nice touch as well!

Brass Sun - liking already.  Looking forward to seeing how this unfolds.  Knowing Edgnigton 'tis highly unlikely to disappoint.

ABC Warriors - pleased to see that Langley is starting to make his narrative artwork more accessible.  It's normally stunning as cover work but hard going otherwise.  This is starting to firm up for me as a real pleasure.  Cover really puts last week's into the shade as well.

Terror Tales - Bagwell art is perfectly suited to this kind of strip and Smith true to form as well.  Not normally my taste but liking it.

Grey Area - police procedural 101 with standard diplomatic complications.  Ho hum.

Overall for me 8/10
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Adrian Bamforth 15 September, 2012, 01:44:29 PM
You mean no-one else got their sense-o-rama glasses with their prog this week to fully appreciate the Dredd art? I can report it's totally amazing; I can actually smell the exhaust from the lawmaster bikes.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Richard 15 September, 2012, 02:05:05 PM
I really liked this week's Terror Tale. Hopefully any new readers who were put off by the ropey Dredd art will have been won over again by this.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: SmallBlueThing 15 September, 2012, 02:09:46 PM
This is all a bit worrying, what with all those thousands of potential new readers coming on board due to the movie... and even more so, if I get it on Wednesday and it's still buggered then that's very annoying, but if it's fixed then they've printed a second batch and I have to track down a first printing! I literally cannot win.

SBT
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Adrian Bamforth 15 September, 2012, 02:20:55 PM
If you ask me, 2000ad has no alternative but to put out a special PJ Holden collection free with the Megazine, including a full reprint of this story.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: pauljholden 15 September, 2012, 02:38:16 PM
WHY IS THERE NO [LIKE] BUTTON ON THIS SITE?
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Tjm86 15 September, 2012, 02:38:49 PM
If you ask me, 2000ad has no alternative but to put out a special PJ Holden collection free with the Megazine, including a full reprint of this story.
would definitely beat some of the ropey stuff they have been including in the reprints of late. 
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: mygrimmbrother 15 September, 2012, 02:57:10 PM
Joking aside, it's pretty bloomin' shocking that this has been allowed to happen. Also, no mention of Dredd whatsoever on the cover - surely now would be a good time to have a string of 3-4 Dredd covers, to, y'know, capitalise on the fact that the film's out?
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Richard 15 September, 2012, 05:00:31 PM
What Grimm said.

Hell of a time to take their eye off the ball.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: thejudgemuffin 15 September, 2012, 05:23:45 PM
Worry not...if we tell them how good 2000AD is, the film will stay at #1 and people will come, they will most definitely come
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Mattofthespurs 15 September, 2012, 06:29:48 PM
Worry not...if we tell them how good 2000AD is, the film will stay at #1 and people will come, they will most definitely come
But we want them to stay.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Colin YNWA 15 September, 2012, 06:54:19 PM
Well previously discussed issues aside the Dredd was a beaut. Grey Area was pretty damned good, ABC Warriors was extreme fun, though knowing whats to come it all felt a bit before the lord Mayors show, Brass Sun was excellent even if it felt as though it didn't really move things on and was focused on world building still (mind what a word to build).

So we get to the Terror Tale and man oh man was it fantastic. The plot was a little light as is often the case with these things but the execution was divine. John Smith and Edmund Bagwell can do no wrong... well aside from not dedicating their every waking hour to giving us a regular weekly dose of Indigo Prime, that aside they can do no wrong. Come on Tharg crack out that electro whip...
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Mudcrab 15 September, 2012, 09:12:02 PM
If you ask me, 2000ad has no alternative but to put out a special PJ Holden collection free with the Megazine, including a full reprint of this story.

Absolutely! In particular the originals, it could be like a colouring book  :D I really don't mean that in a bad way, I just love the B&W one you posted PJ!

So yep, shame about the pixellyness, was great otherwise. I'm liking the talk of retribution. Against who exactly? And how? I eagerly await answers!

Brass Sun was nice, intriguing and that reminds me, The Borgias has started.

ABCs, fantastic. More subtlety in the artwork as said above. Nice bit of continuity affirmation (confirmation?) and intruigued by the possibility of some Ro-Busters flashbacks? Yes, great to see the Warriors back. And yes, the cover was gorgeous.

Which left the prospect of a Terror Tale and Grey Area a bit ho-hum. Not read them yet. But I will of course.
Oh yeah, The Raid competition. Nice  :lol:
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Darren Stephens 15 September, 2012, 09:16:00 PM
Just read it. Top cover from Langley. No real duffers, strips wise. My highlights...
 
Dredd: Excellent script and top art.
Brass Sun: Ditto. Love this already. Beautiful to look at and an intriguing, original story.
ABCs: Fantastic artwork and I am looking forward to seeing where this flashback goes.
Terror Tale: What Colin said. Awesome.
Grey Area: OK, but a bit....boring this week, compared to its companion strips. Needs more aliens, which looks like what's in store for next week, so no probs. :)
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: QuickQuag 15 September, 2012, 09:26:28 PM
ABC Warriors - pleased to see that Langley is starting to make his narrative artwork more accessible.  It's normally stunning as cover work but hard going otherwise. 

Oh good! have to say, Langley's approach to narrative (and the aforementioned uncanny valley folk) is the problem I've had with his version of ABC to date. Looking forward to it!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Trout 15 September, 2012, 09:56:15 PM
A damned good prog. The slight pixellation on the Dredd art didn't spoil it one bit. I always enjoy PJ's art, and this was an excellent story by Mike Carroll. I'm especially happy to see Dolman back.

Brass Sun was still great. I'm desperate to find out more about this fully-formed world - or system of worlds - that is so very fascinating right from the start.

For the first time in years, I really enjoyed ABC Warriors. To see Happy Shrapnel again was surprisingly exciting, and I'm interested to see how Pat Mills is arranging the continuity. I had no idea that Robusters was after Mars, but I don't pay too much attention to such things, admittedly.

Grey Area continues in the same vein. I confess I find it a bit too wordy, but I'm enjoying it well enough.

But my favourite part of the prog was the Terror Tale. I'm not sure how shocking it was, but it was genuinely creepy, especially when they simply gave up and died. Horrible stuff. John Smith rocks.

- Trout
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Cthulouis 15 September, 2012, 11:45:37 PM
Don't normally say much on these threads, but I feel compelled to praise a particular aspect of the already otherwise awesome Brass Sun.

Last issue, it was emphasised that the story is set on the southern hemisphere of the planet. I noticed it during the zoom in, and thought it was pretty neat the way the moon was subsequently seen from the other direction.

This week, we see that this wasn't just a nice bit of artistic flare, but vital storytelling, leaving the reader entierly clear about what that splash page conveys. That's one of those examples of the comic medium being used to its fullest extent. Loved it.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Mudcrab 16 September, 2012, 01:20:51 PM
Il'l take back the "ho-hum" on the Terror Tale. For a start I didn't notice that it was Smith/Bagwell. Not that the fact should make it awesome in itself, but it was a great little creepy tale. Top stuff.

Grey Area however was very much ho-hum.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Pete Wells 16 September, 2012, 01:47:55 PM
I loved the Terror Tale and will think about it every time I see one of those 'XX fatalities on this road' signs. 

There was almost exactly the same set up in the Devil May Cry computer game. You followed two beautiful shimmering faries through the majority of a level and eventually into a courtyard. Once inside you could see they were lures on an angler fish style toad that you had to kill - it was easily one of the coolest bosses ever!

(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080801212005/devilmaycry/images/d/de/Bael_with_Rusalka_Feelers.png)
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Cactus 17 September, 2012, 06:14:36 PM
I'm sorry to say I found this week's prog pretty disappointing. No matter how exciting Clint's covers are they remind me of Mill's clumping dialogue and that takes the edge off. Why does it say "green death" when everything is orange or grey?

The pixellation on page five of Judge Dredd made it hard to follow what was happening in the crowd scene and spoiled an otherwise excellent episode. I think that guy was trying to stop a mugging but it's just too fuzzy to be clear on the first reading.

John Smith's Terror Tale fell flat at the end. I think the pacing was a bit off as re-reading just the last two pages again later it was much more chilling. Beautiful work from the Bagwell droid however. Judging by the car numberplate he's a Preston North End fan.

The ABC Warriors was as slow as I've come to expect from Pat Mills, and I'm completely lost as to the continuity, but it did look nice. I've read re-prints of the one drawn by Simon Bisley but I think I need to get hold of their earliest stories so I can fit it all together. Top marks to Annie Parkhouse for giving each character a unique design of speech bubble though. That's a nice touch that makes it easier to follow.

Brass Sun lost some of the wow factor of last week's episode but I did enjoy it and I think this will be my favourite of the current crop.

Grey Area was actually the most engaging thrill this week. I really liked Bulliet's "smart" way of running the investigation. I'll be filing that one away for use in an RPG some time.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TordelBack 17 September, 2012, 10:31:04 PM
...I'm completely lost as to the continuity...

Don't worry, so's Pat!   ;)
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Proudhuff 18 September, 2012, 10:40:58 AM
Beautiful wraparound A.B.C Warriors cover.

Judge Dredd. A fine story spoiled by those pesty pixels, some droid will be getting it from the mighty one! I prefer PJ work to Mr Weston's more static compositions, but that's just me  :D

Brass Sun. Great stuff hoping this will have a decent short story arc, rather than the endless roaming of Dante.

A.B.C Warriors. Enjoyed this week, the art fitting the robot story nicely, just wish someone would blue pencil the chat.


Terror Tales. Couldn't help but think, how are the bodies left people think its an road accident? 65 and no investigation, am I thinking too much about this?

Grey Area. Enjoyed that sideways questioning, just wish the colour was a bit more...er colourful? very muted.


A good prog  but my heart goes out to PJ as the B&W art is great, before the pixel pixies snafued it.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dandontdare 18 September, 2012, 01:59:25 PM
Am I the only one with deep misgivings about where this ABC tale is going? I loved the reappearance of Happy Shrapnel and the idea of re-telling the meeting with Ro-jaws, but if Pat is ret-conning the whole of the Robusters era into something completely different (deep cover mission? Betray all robotkind?) I won't be a happy bunny.

I only noticed the muddy Dredd art once it was pointed out - that's how observant I am!

Brass Sun and Grey Area were good again this week, but the Terror Tale was a bit flat - needed some kind of twist I think.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Spaceghost 18 September, 2012, 03:12:38 PM
I'm pretty annoyed about the blurry Dredd to be honest. I know that we on the board love 2000 AD and are inclined to be a bit kinder towards a mistake like this but the prog costs £2.35 these days, it's not chicken feed.

I buy 2000 AD for the art and stories, if the art is ruined due to an error then it robs me of my enjoyment and, therefore, value for money.

If I'd picked up any other comic on the shelves of a comic shop and the reproduction was as shoddy as this, I'd put it straight back down again. There's no way I'd shell out for a comic that looked so bad. I really hope it's sorted out before it goes to the shops on Wednesday because otherwise, a lot of people are going to be giving it a miss.

A decent, reprinted copy for subscribers wouldn't go amiss either.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: mygrimmbrother 18 September, 2012, 03:15:32 PM
A decent, reprinted copy for subscribers wouldn't go amiss either.

This I'm afraid.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Banners 18 September, 2012, 04:04:29 PM
: Lee Bates
If I'd picked up any other comic on the shelves of a comic shop and the reproduction was as shoddy as this, I'd put it straight back down again. There's no way I'd shell out for a comic that looked so bad. I really hope it's sorted out before it goes to the shops on Wednesday because otherwise, a lot of people are going to be giving it a miss.

Considering the huge amount of planning and logistics that goes into getting the Prog out on time every Wednesday year-in, year-out, it's surprising this something like this doesn't happen more often. Errors can happen to anyone working in print, even when you make all the proper preflight checks in your artwork and subsequent PDF. It's obviously a genuine mistake and as it's happened for the first time I can think of, it's a shame but quite forgivable.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dark Jimbo 18 September, 2012, 09:23:53 PM
I'm not going to get all spluttery and outraged about the printing error. It isn't as though it was deliberate, and I'm betting nobody's more annoyed about it than Tharg's minions. Shit happens. On with the review -

Dredd quickly goes some way to taking the edge of my dissatisfaction with the Debris story, which promised much but delivered little. I'm a lot more interested in the Dolman/Easter/Corps plot now that I know it didn't have the abrupt and unsatisfying resolution I thought it did. It's just getting going so it's a bit early to call but I'm looking forward to next week.

Brass Sun doesn't really do much different from last week, so I don't really have much to say. Still very good stuff.

ABC Warriors is a joy. I was a bit nonplussed by last week's non-event of an installment but this makes up for that in spades, and introduces us to the real meat of this series. The flashback panel of Happy Shrapnel was crackin', and Pat really pulls a blinder here; in a mere single panel he retrospectively gives the chap in question a proper backstory, a unique identity he never really had before and explains the rather bonkers name and erratic behaviour, all in a single panel! Only Pat could write an episode as decompressed as last week's and follow it with one as dense and rich as this. Say what you like about the man's comics but they read like nobody else's. We also get some lovely hints of why/how the original Mars mission ended, which has never really been addressed before, and some beautiful foreshadowing of where this series going. Joy joy joy.

Blackspot indulges in the classic John Smith dodge of a cool and mysterious monster/setting that's never actually explained (see Cradlegrave); anyone can come up with funky beasties and intriguing scenarios if they're not called on to provide any sort of explanation, and the brass neck of this should really annoy; but when it's pulled off with this much verve and style it doesn't really seem to matter (again, see Cradlegrave). And it helps that the art's a blinder (you know the drill by now... see Cradlegrave). All told, a textbook example of a Terror Tale... now get these guys back to work on more Indigo Prime!

Grey Area is Grey Area. The plot continues to take its sweet time, the supposedly grizzled soldiers continue to talk like immature teenagers and Lee Carter continues to knock it out of the park - given nothing very interesting to draw he triumphs regardless and keeps the interest all the way through. It's not that I dislike this series; it's that I struggle to feel very much about it either way since the potentially interesting xenophobe plotline just fizzled out. Ho Hum.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TheMightyOne 18 September, 2012, 09:36:10 PM
I personally am loving grey area! I sometimes think I must be the only one :lol:

I think the whole idea is great and the art is very slick and well futuristic, it really builds up an atmosphere in my humble opinion. Also great story, an invisible killer... shocked! recommended to my friends that they buy it because of that story!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Link Prime 18 September, 2012, 11:47:25 PM
I loved the Terror Tale and will think about it every time I see one of those 'XX fatalities on this road' signs. 

There was almost exactly the same set up in the Devil May Cry computer game. You followed two beautiful shimmering faries through the majority of a level and eventually into a courtyard. Once inside you could see they were lures on an angler fish style toad that you had to kill - it was easily one of the coolest bosses ever!

(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080801212005/devilmaycry/images/d/de/Bael_with_Rusalka_Feelers.png)

Agreed Pete, that was one of the most memorable video game moments I've had- great boss idea.

A thumbs up for ABC Warriors from fellow Khaos fanatic Dark Jimbo bodes well for some good readin tomorrow.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Zarjazzer 19 September, 2012, 09:56:10 AM
wow that's a great boss! Not tried DMC. Read the prog in the cinema yesterday good stuff from Dredd, ABC (tho it seemed largely a 'nam style flashback) and Brass Sun, Terror Tales was okay haven't managed to read Grey Area yet (good art though).

Cool cover with tentacled ooglies and The ABC warriors.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Mudcrab 19 September, 2012, 12:37:23 PM
...if Pat is ret-conning the whole of the Robusters era into something completely different (deep cover mission? Betray all robotkind?) I won't be a happy bunny.

Maybe not Ro-Busters itself, but it's got to be something to do with the Rise and Fall storyline. I'm long overdue a re-read of that. Quartz will surely be involved in some fashion I'd expect.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: IndigoPrime 19 September, 2012, 01:06:56 PM
If? Hasn't ABC Warriors been ret-con-a-go-go for some time now?
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dark Jimbo 19 September, 2012, 01:07:45 PM
Oh, I was going to say; besides the aforementioned confusion about page 5 of Dredd (no real idea what's meant to be happening in panels 4 and 5) I was a bit nonplussed by page 2 as well. Page 1 ends with the three chaps in/on the bus pointing and looking at something; page 2 then starts with a load of skysurfers facing down a couple of random guys. For a start, who are these two in the foreground? The brown cowl and tonsure haircut makes the first one look like a monk, but I'm sure that's not meant to be the case. Is the guy with earrings supposed to be a Judge? Anyway, then Dredd tools up and shoots up the surfers (I think, but it's a bit confused as to who's shooting at who). I'm not really sure if any of this is meant to be related to the three guys on page 1 or if it's a different event entirely and we'll go back to those three next week. Anyone?
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Mister Pops 19 September, 2012, 02:27:44 PM
Just picked up my prog from the newsagents. The pixellation in Dredd hasn't been sorted. Every page of Dredd looks like a jpeg that hasn't properly loaded. For aaminute I thought 'shoulda gone to specsavers'*.

*Other optometrists are available
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Banners 19 September, 2012, 02:49:17 PM
: Dark Jimbo
...page 2 then starts with a load of skysurfers facing down a couple of random guys. For a start, who are these two in the foreground? The brown cowl and tonsure haircut makes the first one look like a monk, but I'm sure that's not meant to be the case. Is the guy with earrings supposed to be a Judge?

They're clearly the guys at the bus, but I think the guy on the right of the panel has been coloured wrong. He should be the white bloke on the board, not the black guy on top of the bus who is the monk you refer to.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dark Jimbo 19 September, 2012, 02:59:40 PM
AHHHHHHHH. That makes much more sense. So I guess what follows is a battle between rival gangs of scroungers - the guys on the bus and the skysurfer gang? Yeah, the colouring on that panel didn't help.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Spaceghost 19 September, 2012, 03:07:49 PM
Just picked up my prog from the newsagents. The pixellation in Dredd hasn't been sorted. Every page of Dredd looks like a jpeg that hasn't properly loaded.

Oh dear. That's not good.

Sorry if I sound like a grouch amongst all the 'Hey, it's just a little mistake!' comments but if I'd bought a DVD and a fifth of it was pixellated, or I'd bought an album and a fifth of it was spoiled with distortion, I'd take it back to the shop. So would everybody else on this forum.

I know it's only happened once but still...
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Professor Bear 19 September, 2012, 06:21:54 PM
I found out about the pixellation when PJ mentioned it on Twitter (several times), and he seemed bummed about it.  If he was being snotty and dismissive of fans/consumers I might think it was worth poking the bear a bit, but those concerned seem as pissed it happened as their customers do, so I'd let it slide as a one-off.

I have worked in print and can back up Banners' "accidents happen, let it go" attitude, as customers who got back to us because we delivered sub-par work for the money they paid us were just the worst and we viewed them with nothing but contempt to the point it overshadowed our remorse for doing shitty work.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Spaceghost 19 September, 2012, 06:51:46 PM
Alright, I'll stop being a whingeing twat about it. The damage is already done.

It was a good Dredd despite the printing problems and the rest of the prog was really good too. Brass Sun is the show stopper at the moment.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Spaceghost 19 September, 2012, 09:18:17 PM
Jeezus, I wish I'd never said anything now. Some grexnix is lambasting poor Molch-R about the printing error on Facebook and he's using my film/album analogy. I hope it's not a forumite.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TheMightyOne 19 September, 2012, 09:51:26 PM
It is not that bigger problem to me but hopefully it is sorted out when I pick up my copy tommorow. It could always be a problem with a batch(s).
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: a chosen rider 19 September, 2012, 10:53:03 PM
Cover - It's Langley doing what Langley does; the composition doesn't massively grab me, but I know this art style is really striking to people who aren't familiar with it, so always a good choice for a cover.

Dredd - Rejoice, digital readers, for we get to see the art in all its original non-pixellated glory!  Having peeked at the paper copy in Smiths, it wasn't quite as bad as I was expecting given the dire wailings in this thread, but it's definitely a shame, because I feel like the art on this has visibly leapt forward since "Debris".  Seems much stronger and cleaner here, and with a greater sense of depth.  Story-wise it's an intriguing start; I'm really glad the Dolman thread is being followed up, but nervous about where it's going - I want him to stick around, but I really don't want to see him go back to the Judges.

Brass Sun - Ooh, pretty.  Love the atmosphere of the opening panel with the snow and the lighting inside the dolmen.  And that reindeer.  Some fascinating worldbuilding going on as well.  Top stuff.

ABC Warriors - You know, I see all the things that are objectively flaws with this, and yet I enjoy the ride anyway.  This must be how other people felt about Flesh.

Terror Tales - Now this looks nice.  Love the muted colour scheme.  A neat little tale, although I feel like the ending doesn't quite have the right impact: took a re-read for it to properly sink in for me.

Grey Area - I completely forgot what the fifth story was in this prog until I reached it, which is maybe not the best sign.  I really want this series to find its feet, and I feel like the art has been getting steadily, but this story so far seems to have involved a great many panels of people standing around talking to each other.  Would be nice to see a bit more action and vairety next week.

Overall, a very strong prog this week, with just Grey Area not really reaching its potential.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Daveycandlish 20 September, 2012, 08:47:52 AM
I only ever read this thread after I've bought and read the prog (spoilers sweetie!) by which time everyone has said what I think. So, to reiterate; cool cover, but should have been Dredd. Dredd story marred by repro.  Brass Sun is the highlight for me this week. I can't wait for the next episode, or indeed the collection. I don't know the backstory on ABC and don't feel the urge to buy the collecteds but Langley seems well suited to this, it's just not grabbing me. Nice Terror Tale (if that's not a contradiction!). Grey Area does what it does and does it well - I understand what was said earlier about the art being static but this week was mainly standing around talking so no need for dynamism. Overall 7/10 (loses a mark for not cashing in with a Dredd cover, another for pixellated story and another for one story not being my thing)
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: SmallBlueThing 20 September, 2012, 09:34:07 AM
No proper review from me this week as I am far too ill. Just some random musings:

1. Dredd pixellatin wasn't as bad as I'd feared- certainly didn't leap out and ruin the strip for me. What was far more important was how much the post-DoC strip was moved along within the pages. A new approach by the Justice Department, no killings, work details, Dolman, repercussions following the introduction of the space judges- oh my! This should've happened weeks ago. Brilliant stuff.

2. Terror Tales. Quite possibly my favourite thing in the prog this year. I love John Smith for this- a truly magnificent bit of Ramsey Campbell-esque horror. If Tharg were to get Smith and Bagwell to produce a series of twelve or so of these shorts, he'd have an immensely saleable book at the end of it, as well as three months of guaranteed top thrills.

3. Brass Sun. Yep, glorious. I want to buy the trade already. Like, now.

4. ABCs. Widescreen loveliness and 2000AD at its best. Though I'd remind Tharg that he owes us two books from the previous series in paperback. Ahem ahem.

5. Grey Area. While it dribbles at the end of the prog, and isn't perhaps as loved as it should be, I'm very much enjoying this series as a whole. The dialogue as they investigated the car was very nicely done, and the payoff alien suitably nasty-looking to ensure I remember it next week.

The prog definately feels as if it's upped the ante in the light of the movie release, and while the cover was surprisingly unrelated it's good to see Tharg carrying on as normal in that respect. Perhaps the comic's future is not as reliant on the film as some doomsayers may have thought.

Anyway- back to the sick bed!

SBT
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Jim_Campbell 20 September, 2012, 09:58:33 AM
If Tharg were to get Smith and Bagwell to produce a series of twelve or so of these shorts, he'd have an immensely saleable book at the end of it, as well as three months of guaranteed top thrills.

This is a suggestion of unspeakable brilliance.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Alski 20 September, 2012, 11:24:20 AM
A first class Prog this week, for the most part.

Without the slight fuzziness, I like the Dredd art, although there is certainly confusion in the story.

Brass Sun is intriguing, so far so good.

ABC Warriors is frakkin' gorgeous this week, some of the best art I've seen in the Prog (if youy like 'that sort of thing')

Terror Tales is a neat one, a good if slightly unoriginal idea well executed.

Grey Area is very good, looks like a nice mystery story and the art is to notch.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Van Dom 20 September, 2012, 01:03:58 PM
After nearly a year away I'm struggling to get back into the swing of things Im afraid. I'm not blown away (yet) by the newest batch of stories (only resumed buying from 1800). Dredd is strong as always, but thats a given, with Wagner or Carroll on scripting duties. Shame about what happened to the art cos it looks good and PJ's one of my favourite 2000ad artists. Still missing The 86ers big time, his art on that was fab.

ABC Warriors though.....it just seems like more of the same, again. The wraparound cover to this issue just made me sigh to be honest, as technically well produced and brilliantly painted as it is. LAngleys skill is incredible and mindboggling, its just the subject matter is boring me at the moment. Same goes for the story inside. Why does every ABC Warriors story have to be primarily a flashback going over old ground (with a slight twist) all the time? There's no sense of threat or suspense or drama. Sorry, I am a fan of Pat Mills in general (even Greysuit!!!) but I don't like this format as it makes every story seem pointless.

I;m not actually digging Brass Sun yet as much as everyone else seems to be, don't know why. Although I will confess to not being much of a fan of the other Edginton stuff, (apart from Stickleback, which is incredible) so that might explain it. Art is wonderful though.

The Terror Tale was quite good, great idea, great art. Just thought if fell just a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle bit flat at the very end there. But still, apart from that, nice little frightener.

Finally Grey Area and the problem with this is that I havent seen any previous Grey Area stories and I'm a bit lost with it. I think it probably is good and once I figure out who everyone is and what the setup is Im sure Ill love it (kind of like what happened with Sinister Dexter when I joined that late) but as of right now its not lighting my fire.

But maybe this is all just a result of being away too long and my thrill receptors going rusty! Lets re-assess in a couple of weeks, what!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dandontdare 20 September, 2012, 03:14:37 PM
...if Pat is ret-conning the whole of the Robusters era into something completely different (deep cover mission? Betray all robotkind?) I won't be a happy bunny.
If? Hasn't ABC Warriors been ret-con-a-go-go for some time now?
Maybe not Ro-Busters itself, but it's got to be something to do with the Rise and Fall storyline. I'm long overdue a re-read of that. Quartz will surely be involved in some fashion I'd expect.

There has often been examples of extra stories that took place between establsihed strips, and we are simply left to wonder why nobdoy mentioned this significant interlude earlier, eg why does Hammerstein (in Ro-busters) keep banging on about the Volgan war, but never mention the ABC warriors? (obviously cos it hadn't been written!) That, I've got no problem with.

What I wouldn't like is the suggestion that something completely different was going on during strips that already exist than what we've always been told , as this would forever taint a body of stories that I love.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Hawkmumbler 20 September, 2012, 03:58:50 PM
I have no idea what the heck is going on in the Millsverse continuity anyway.
How did the Volgan war go from Savage and co. driving the cosac's out of the country to the whole human race just watching Hammerstein's and other's tear eachother apart like some messed up TV program?
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Steve Green 20 September, 2012, 05:15:42 PM
...if Pat is ret-conning the whole of the Robusters era into something completely different (deep cover mission? Betray all robotkind?) I won't be a happy bunny.
If? Hasn't ABC Warriors been ret-con-a-go-go for some time now?
Maybe not Ro-Busters itself, but it's got to be something to do with the Rise and Fall storyline. I'm long overdue a re-read of that. Quartz will surely be involved in some fashion I'd expect.

There has often been examples of extra stories that took place between establsihed strips, and we are simply left to wonder why nobdoy mentioned this significant interlude earlier, eg why does Hammerstein (in Ro-busters) keep banging on about the Volgan war, but never mention the ABC warriors? (obviously cos it hadn't been written!) That, I've got no problem with.

What I wouldn't like is the suggestion that something completely different was going on during strips that already exist than what we've always been told , as this would forever taint a body of stories that I love.

I'm really waiting to hear the explanation for the different head as a disguise for a robot that was mass produced, and calling himself the same name...
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dark Jimbo 20 September, 2012, 05:41:35 PM
Given that we're only two weeks in and the flashback hasn't even started, how about everyone waits to see how it pans out before getting their knickers in a twist?
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Fisticuffs 20 September, 2012, 07:53:14 PM
I think I'm gonna stop reading these review threads, all you grumpy old men are spoiling my enjoyment of the prog, and I've only just taken out a years sub. :p

Dredd - Good story, shame about the pixels.

ABC - As a newcomer I'm not seeing repetition, just GORGEOUS artwork and an interesting story.

Brass Sun - Is the watercolour to the ABC oil painting. Love it, fantastic world so far.

Terror Tale - Not bad, starts well but ends on a damp squib, they just give up when the car is 10 feet away? Nah...

Grey Area - Again a bit boring, very 'static' artwork, the torso section of the female agents armour needs ALOT of detail adding to it, and the story isn't dragging me in.

Overall very good though!!!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TheMightyOne 20 September, 2012, 08:49:39 PM
Just picked up my prog today. :)

Dredd- Good story, pixels where annoying though.

ABC- Love the art work, good story.

brass sun- Great, really great. Fresh new story, nice artwork.

Terror tale- Very underwhelmed, did not enjoy this at all. Their wasnt really much of a story, it had an interesting begin then ended (if you call that an ending). Also not scary. To summarise, not terrorising or a tale.

Grey Area- Liking the story and the setting and the general feel. Art work is a bit static and even though the dialogue was well set out, the things the said were very juvenile and ruined the atmosphere. 
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dudley 20 September, 2012, 10:07:06 PM
Dredd - Having missed the whole Day Of Chaos apart from what I picked up from squaxx web posts, this doesn't make over-much sense.  But it's nice to see Dolman again, even with a beard.

ABC - you really do know exactly what you'll get, don't you?

Brass Sun - The dialogue seems oddly stilted for an Edginton, and the art's OK but nothing like the detail one would expect from a similar artist (D'Isreali).  Awful lot of cliches, given the quite original steampunky central idea.

Terror Tale - these creators can never do wrong. 

Grey Area - Whassgoinon? Lee Carter's art has improved massively since I last say an example.

: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Richmond Clements 21 September, 2012, 08:00:21 AM
Given that we're only two weeks in and the flashback hasn't even started, how about everyone waits to see how it pans out before getting their knickers in a twist?

Are you new to the internet?

FWIW: my digital copy was fine!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: gufnork 21 September, 2012, 12:17:31 PM
And once again, not actually blown away by this issue. The cover is fantastic though, another true work of art. Absolutely beautiful stuff here.

Judge Dredd - Wasn't quite so keen on the art this week. Last week's was definitely my favourite art style for Dredd of these two issues. Having said that I am only two issues in and both episodes have been well drawn in their own way. Still preferred last weeks art though if I'm being picky. I'm a great fan of multi-parters so I'm expecting to enjoy this one as it proceeds. Gonna have to look up some acronyms though. What's a SOV? Anyway, am liking the whole struggling to get things back on an even keel after the Day of Chaos(which I haven't read, but looked up the synopsis on wikipedia) kick thing. So, yeah, good but missing the humour of last weeks one off. I like humour. A little more tongue in cheek stuff please.

Brass Sun - No, no, no, no, NO! The story looks like it could actually be tolerable, if not quite good(in the end) but the artwork just doesn't do anything for me except anoy me quite a lot. I could imagine myself, or maybe that 5 year old from next door drawing this kind of stuff and perhaps even that isn't a bad thing for a lot of people, but when I pick up 2000ad I really do want, nay, excpect something a little better, something that I know is beyond the usual plebs abilities and I'm still not convinced this is it. So I say again... NO!

ABC Warriors - Yes, yes and thrice more, YES! Now this is more like it. Fantastic artwork, in fact absolutely stunning artwork, in fact there just aren't words in the English language to describe my love and admiration for the artist and colourist(are they the same person?) in this one. I quite liked the memory/flashback thread running through this episode, just so long as it's not all going to be memories and flashbacks every week. The different speach bubbles, well now... I can see why it's there and I'm really loving the black cloud speach bubble for Deadlock but the others are a little angular for my liking and tend to draw my eye to them a little more than I would like really. But I'm probably being picky there I think. This is just remarkable work all round and deserves all the praise it gets.

Terror Tales - Not sure what the point of this was. If you're going to do these little one off stories then at least make sure they're done right. This would have been fine if it'd been twice or maybe three times as long. They could have really ratcheted up the tension and given the ending the time and space it deserved, but what actually happened was that they miss-timed the whole piece and ended up rushing the ending. It just seemed to a bit too much of a stretch to believe the two of them would simply say, 'oh well, looks like we've been tricked and are going to die now. Not to worry sweetie...'. Just made no sense at all and was entirely unbelievable. If they're going to do this sort of one-shot-short then the timing really does need to be spot on I think.

Grey Area - Was ok. Just ok though. The art isn't to my taste but I'm not offended by it either so that's ok. It was nice to see some faces this time rather than just helmets standing around. I liked the look of the Ambassador at the end too. Could become slightly more than ok if we're lucky, but I'll not hold my breath.

In summary, the best of the bunch once again were Dredd and ABC Warriors. The worst was undoubtedly Brass Sun. The rest just seem to be either ok-ish or simply not up to scratch at all. I'm kind of hoping things will pick up a bit as these stories move on because I've gotta tell ya guys, I'm far from being won over at the moment. ABC Warriors(and Dredd to a degree) are the exceptions.

Still, onward and upward(hopefully).
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Jim_Campbell 21 September, 2012, 12:46:23 PM
I could imagine myself, or maybe that 5 year old from next door drawing this kind of stuff

Then you would imagine wrong. For many (but by no means all) artists, layering detail, shading, rendering onto a page is a very effective way of covering up basic weakness in the drawing. Strip a style right back, and there is literally nowhere to hide. (Kev Walker said something similar in his Megazine interview a couple of years back, when he anticipated stripping his very highly rendered style back to something more Mignola-ish didn't save him anything like as much time as he'd anticipated.)

If Culbard's art isn't to your taste, that's fine -- your opinion is no more or less valid than mine, but don't assert that this stuff is easy, because it really isn't.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Proudhuff 21 September, 2012, 12:52:34 PM
indeed less is more dear boy. Getting across the complexity of an entire solar system in as few lines as possible is genius, and the story telling, the important bit, flows beautifully, while that is often not the case with a highly coloured and crowded panel.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: SmallBlueThing 21 September, 2012, 01:04:42 PM
While i would, of course, agree with the two gentlemen above, i would urge caution. Hereabouts we are all seasoned and experienced critics (ha!) and know how to use the language of that criticism. Newer folk may not yet have those skills- and to every other (non-arty) person in the whole world "it looks like something a five year old would do" is a reasonable response to art that is not immediately seen as complicated or rendered in a manner similar to some of the other strips in the prog. Of course it is- and we all have seen everything from picasso to mike mcmahon described thus by, amongst others, our parents. Memorably my dad told me i could draw better than carlos ezquerra on looking at a page of apocalypse war art. He was comparing it to dan dare in the eagle and, well, there you go.
The first time i saw i.n.j. culbard's work- that stickleback xmas one-off- i hated it too. In comparison to d'israeli it looked, er, like something a child would do. Then i read 'at the mountains of madness' and hooo (cont)
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TordelBack 21 September, 2012, 01:08:29 PM
'Nother thoughtful review there Gufnork, keep'em coming.  'Sov', BTW and just FYI, is just short for the inhabitants of (the former) East-Meg 1 and East-Meg 2, the 'Sov-block' of the former Soviet Union - Chaos Day being their posthumous 'payback' (of the title) for Dredd's annihilation of their city some 30 years ago.  It's an obviously dated term, but hails from the comic's cold-war origins.

As to my thoughts:

Cover:  Finally, the ABC Warriors / Slaine crossover nobody demanded!  Very striking and technically accomplished, no doubt, and probably a good lure for the new punter, but while it would have been on my bedroom wall had it shown up in 1983, I've really had enough of the art style at this point.  Looking forward to seeing Langley's return to pen-and-ink shortly.

Dredd:    As our all-island Irish cricket team struggle in Sri Lanka, it's good to see the cross-border partnership of Carroll and Holden come out for another innings, and briskly chip an easy delivery right down past square leg for four. Presumably they're eligible for some sort of Good Friday Agreement grant. 

PJ's strong art is barely dented by the Great Pixellation Disaster of oh-12, and the story looks like being a strong sequel to a strong tale.  Loved the cadet's Judgement Day quip, but a little puzzled to see that Easter has been told who Dolman is - but I suppose that everyone at the Academy knew, so once he kept the name the facechange was irrelevant.  Good stuff.

However, again I find Tharg's scheduling a little odd.  Last week was a jumping-on Prog, but this week we have a story which is the explicit continuation of one from last month, and further features a not-really-explained-at-all character previously seen 6 years ago.

Brass Sun:  Yet more Dolmen.  Seriously though, -drooooool-  Besotted, that's what I am. Not a line wasted in the art, and yet full of lovely scene-setting details like the roasting spider.

ABC Warriors:  Actively dislike the Happy Shrapnel redesign, but intrigued by the story and enjoying the lettering quirks hugely. 

Meanwhile, over in kontinuity korner:  As to Hammerstein's supposed 'disguise', he was AN Hammerstein, albeit the Mk III prototype, so keeping the name isn't a problem - maybe his old head had some kind of RFI Tag in it that was deactivated once he took it off?  I hope his 'betrayal' relates to the end of 'Fall and Rise', that would be pretty cool.

Terror Tale:  Another dream team in Smith & Bagwell, with a story that while atmospheric did have a certain seen-it-all-before aspect to it.

Grey Area:  An improvement on last week's certainly, but while I think the colour art is excellent, I've really had enough of Carter's boobarmour.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dark Jimbo 21 September, 2012, 01:10:06 PM
Gonna have to look up some acronyms though. What's a SOV?

Short for soviet - a derogatory term for the Russians of East Meg 1 and 2.

I'm kind of hoping things will pick up a bit as these stories move on because I've gotta tell ya guys, I'm far from being won over at the moment. ABC Warriors(and Dredd to a degree) are the exceptions.

Grey Area ends in 1803, and I think we're getting Low Life and Simping Detective in place of that and the Terror Tales from 1804 onward. I do think GA was a bit of a weird choice to run at a time when we're more likely than at any time since 1995 to be getting an influx of new readers to the prog. It does what it does well enough but it's hardly likely to set the world on fire and engender a lifelong loyalty to the House of Tharg. Dan Abnett really seems to be phoning it in lately.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: SmallBlueThing 21 September, 2012, 01:10:15 PM
(cont) boy, did i feel foolish. The man is a genius, and long may he put brush or whatever to paper or screen. But- in a prog recently featuring clint langley, chris western and edmund bagwell- all of whom are masters of 'realistic' 'detail', culbard will always take some getting used to.

All i will say to the person who kicked this off: go check out 'at the mountains of madness', published by self made hero, £14.99. At the end of that, you'll get it.

SBT
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: SmallBlueThing 21 September, 2012, 01:13:13 PM
GAH! Tordleback and Dark Jimbo- get your big faces out of my (cont)!

SBT
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TordelBack 21 September, 2012, 01:22:11 PM
Oh cruel fate, to be the meat in a small blue sandwhich.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dark Jimbo 21 September, 2012, 01:27:25 PM
 :o It's dark and scary in here. Hold me, Tord, and tell me everything's going to be alright.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: I, Cosh 21 September, 2012, 01:51:45 PM
You appear to be confusing detail with quality.

As it happens I'm a bit bemused at all the gushing over this Culbard chap myself. I really liked the splash pages in both episodes but find the lack of backgrounds in the majority of panels a real turn off. Jim mentioned Kev Walker's stripped back style and I don't think this is in anything like the same league. Enjoying the story so far, although the religion/climate change analogy may become grating.

I didn't like this week's Dredd story much. I think I'm experiencing a sort of childish peevishness at having my expectations overturned that Wagner had plans for Dolman. Which isn't really Mike Carrol's fault but there you go. The misprinting was a bit of an annoyance: I'm not a fan of Holden's art but I'd still prefer to see it as originally intended.

ABCs was as lacking in fun as it has been since Shadow Warriors. I'm looking forward to seeing the promised new art style but not to reading the story.

The Terror Tale was alright. Smith's wonderful atmospherics and non-endings work well in a longer form story like Cradlegrave but not so well in this short format that really demands something punchy.

Quite enjoyed Grey Area but think it's the stiffness in the art which is the problem rather than anything about a talky episode in itself. I feel a bit bad to keep going on about this as it's clear that Carter has worked on this aspect and the posing of figures has visibly improved since Necrophim. I like a strip like this which has the potential for different types of story.

Overall: meh.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Jim_Campbell 21 September, 2012, 01:59:04 PM
Jim mentioned Kev Walker's stripped back style and I don't think this is in anything like the same league.

I wasn't making a comparison between the two, merely observing that Kev had explicitly stated that he thought simplifying his style would save him a lot of time, and that this proved not to be the case. I brought it up to illustrate my point that simpler ≠ easier.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: gufnork 21 September, 2012, 02:14:21 PM
Jim mentioned Kev Walker's stripped back style and I don't think this is in anything like the same league.

I wasn't making a comparison between the two, merely observing that Kev had explicitly stated that he thought simplifying his style would save him a lot of time, and that this proved not to be the case. I brought it up to illustrate my point that simpler ≠ easier.

Cheers

Jim

That's a fair point of course but might the time issue be as much to do with lack of familiarity in a more simplistic style as much as anything else? Trying to do anything that you're less familiar with is bound to take longer, isn't it?
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: gufnork 21 September, 2012, 02:27:35 PM

Short for soviet - a derogatory term for the Russians of East Meg 1 and 2.


Ah, of course. Thanks for that.


Grey Area ends in 1803, and I think we're getting Low Life and Simping Detective in place of that and the Terror Tales from 1804 onward...

I think the fact that it's an Anthology is why I'm still more likely to continue getting 2000ad than not. The thought of missing some great new story(or new to me at least) may just be too much to bear.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Jim_Campbell 21 September, 2012, 02:39:18 PM
That's a fair point of course but might the time issue be as much to do with lack of familiarity in a more simplistic style as much as anything else? Trying to do anything that you're less familiar with is bound to take longer, isn't it?

Not really, no. The plain fact is that you just cannot fudge anything in a sparse, open style with minimal rendering. It all has to be spot on in the layout, the composition and the actual drawing ability.

I was fascinated to see some of David Mazzucchelli's pencils reproduced in a TPB of Batman: Year One. I'd assumed that his loose, brushy style (which was widely slated at the time, as I recall) was mostly done in the inking, but it's not, it's all right there in the pencils. John Byrne has commented that people would be amazed to see Mike Mignola's pencils, for the sheer amount of detail he draws but doesn't ink.

Don't get me wrong: there are plenty of artists with elaborate finishing styles who are phenomenal artists, but there is a school of thought, particularly prevalent amongst comic fans for some reason, that equates surface detail with ability to draw and has given some pretty poor artists careers far more lucrative than they had any right to expect!

But, yes, it's a stylistic choice and whether or not you like a certain style is entirely subjective and each person's subjective response to that is entirely valid. As I said, though, what drawing in a simplified style is not, is easy.

Cheers

Jim
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TordelBack 21 September, 2012, 04:05:30 PM
I can see where gufnork is going alright, just not in relation to Brass Sun.  There are artists who skip backgrounds completely and start getting all iffy about drawing all five fingers and so on, and they can sometimes be artists who have been much more detailed in the past and are obviously trying, not unreasonably, to speed the hell up so that they can feed their families*.  Even so, it can be quite frustrating for the reader who feels they aren't getting the full package they are used to.   

However, I think anyone who has ever tried their hand at drawing will appreciate how much easier is to sketch up a drawing out of hundreds of constantly-adjusting lines, filling in shadow and texture and outline until you get something that resembles what you intended, as compared to conveying an expression or action or scene with just a couple of precisely set black lines and block colour.  And it's the latter that Culbard pulls off panel after panel in Brass Sun. 

As with last week, it's the shot of Wren and her mount that really captivated me this week, an exquisite calligraphy of a thing that radiates warmth, cold, companionship and loneliness in a handful of strokes.  Quite literally magic.


*Not intended to be a reflection on any 2000AD artist in particular, and especially not McMahon or Walker, just a general observation.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Mister Pops 21 September, 2012, 05:10:23 PM
Finally got a chance to sit down and have a proper read of this.

The cover and the ABCs: I really should be enjoying a story about big violent robots a lot more, but in the recent run of stories, I'm just not feeling it. It's gotten a bit formulaic for me, not that there's anything wrong with formulaic story-telling, I'm just not that into this formula. Not a big Clint Langley fan. He's technically gifted, but his contributions are getting more and more cliched, with lazy compositions relying too much on 'badass' hero poses. If you read my review of last week's prog, you'll remember that I said I'd seen too many panels like the last ABC panel before. Well now the same sort of thing is on the prog. I appreciate that a new reader would be excited by it, and I'll admit to being fascinated by Langley's digital style the first time i saw it, but it's worn out at this point. I'd like to see some new artists working on ABCs. Has Colin Macniel had a tilt at them yet? That said, I'm interested to see what Langley's new alternative style looks like.

Dredd: The blurry art is a bit dissapointing, but it's not the end of the world, just so long as it doesn't happen regularly. I like PJ's style, and suspect he's more pissed off about it than any of us. Story was OK, I was pleased to see the Post-DoC MC1 explored a bit more after a few progs with perfunctory allusions to it.

Brass Sun: Not as mind-blowing as last week, but still the top thrill for me. If 5 year olds can draw like that then maybe I should just give up. So many nice wee touches. Culbard manages to portray Wren as a brave, thoughtful and capable young lady, despite her not having a single line or thought bubble in the entire installment. Just little touches, like I said, for example the fact that she captured and is now spit-roasting some sorta giant spider. The facial expressions are all spot on too. I particularly like the way Sabin has beady little eyes compared with every other character we've seen.

Grey Area: After an intriguing start, it falls flat. I thought the first part was a bit decompressed, and now apparently there's only one more intallment in this arc? For my money, this series needs to find a good hook or interesting direction sharpish. At least Abnett's not dragging out Sin/Dex, I suppose.

Overall a good prog, not everything was to my taste, but that's anthologies for you. I wonder when we're going to see a letters page with movie talk on it, because, y'know, there's just not enough of that on the forums alone ;)
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dandontdare 21 September, 2012, 11:13:35 PM
I like PJ's style, and suspect he's more pissed off about it than any of us

a point that bears repeating - lots of slagging off of the art this week (I swear I'll never buy a prog again 'cos I was so offended by that outrageous pixellation) but take a reality check - Printers error = not the end of the world.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TordelBack 22 September, 2012, 09:41:23 AM
I like PJ's style, and suspect he's more pissed off about it than any of us

a point that bears repeating - lots of slagging off of the art this week (I swear I'll never buy a prog again 'cos I was so offended by that outrageous pixellation) but take a reality check - Printers error = not the end of the world.

Hear, hear.  It's a non-event, PJ's art has a clarity that survived pixellation perfectly well.  Stomm happens, printers make mistakes.  We had a professional journal once that had to be reprinted three times - and that only comes out once a year and costs a hell of a lot more than £2.50 or whatever it is now. 

It's not like they forgot to print the whole episode, like in the good old days.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Proudhuff 22 September, 2012, 11:51:44 AM
or that olde favourite: pages in the wrong !!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Mardroid 22 September, 2012, 06:32:44 PM
Cover: I like that a lot. One small quibble: I download my prog and Meg from Clickwheel. (That's not the quibble.) Relatively recently they took to creating wraparound covers as a longer image at the start. They didn't do that this time. It wasn't a major problem though as I had a bit of fun rearranging the pages myself and looking at it in 2 page mode has the same effect. Which leads to another (this time positive) observation: the digital production team are lining up the pages much better. In the past you could see the page join due to the pages being a few pixels out of alignment. I can't see it any more. At least I didn't for the wraparound (which is saying something since it wasn't set up that way) and i haven't noticed it in the two page spreads inside.

Anyway: big robots shooting things. Great stuff.

Dredd:  I'll admit I noticed the pixelation but it wasn't an issue for me. In fact I didn't think it was an error! I thought maybe it was a result of viewing lower resolution art on a computer screen and I have to look close to really see it. (That leads me to wonder if the version you guys are seeing in the physical issue is much worse.)   I did wonder at the early panel where the sky surfer guy is describing the contents of the bus to two guys standing right on top of it but I guess he can get a better perspective from up there with his binocullar things. A good start, and the art was good.

ABC Warriors: I found last week's way too chatty. This was chatty too, but I found what they said interesting so that was okay. I remember finding it irritating when Deffoe's team had a natter while wading up to their proverbial belly buttons in attacking zombies. After all, when I'm at work, I can hardly concentrate on what I'm doing if I'm talking too much with my colleague, but her it didn't bother me so much being robots. I can imagine their multi-tasking computer brains would manage chatting and shooting beasties just fine.

Anyway, having read the Meknificent Seven, I was very excited to see Langley's take on Happy Shrapnel. Comparing with the earlier artist, it's as if both were going for different Western archetypes. The earlier one looked like one of those loveable-slightly roguish old-timers you'd find panning for gold. This one looks like a lean tough gunslinger. I don't say that as a criticism of the earlier version - that worked too - it is just interesting to see. So yes, I liked this a lot and look forward to the new art style flashback.

Brass Sun:  Lovely stuff! More please. And I'm a sucker for these winter-scape scenes.

Terror Tale: I really enjoyed this! The best of these one shots in a while, for me. I wasn't keen on how quickly they gave up though. I get the feeling from the earlier exchange that they're not a happy couple but that was a bit absurd. Just exchanging the panel for one with the couple in the creatures clutches, screaming, would have worked better, or even if they were frozen to the spot in stark terror. But this... giving up? Despite my banging on about it, the tale was a cracker overall. And I dare I say I prefer it to Indigo Prime, which I just couldn't get into? I get the impression I'm in the minority there. Oh, and I see we're back to 5 pages. Good.

Grey Area:  Another enjoyable episode. I think this strip needs a meatier story at some point with more episodes, but these short 'day in the life of the officers' stories aren't a bad way to go in building the world of this strip.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Mardroid 22 September, 2012, 06:34:04 PM
Shoot. I forgot to spoilerize some of my post and the modify button has gone.

That being said, I remember it was decided a while back that spoiler tags weren't needed for these review threads, but I will often use it just in case...
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Spikes 22 September, 2012, 11:31:49 PM
Another top prog, i thought.
Nice post DoC Dredd episode, and though the low rez appearance of the art was noticable from the off, it didnt spoil the reading too much. Liked the Judgement day comment from the cadet. Looks like things might be getting interesting. Quite liking Grey Area, as well, at the minute. ABC warriors is just lovely to look at, but is it all going to get a bit retcon crazy? Terror Tales was a good one, if ultimatley a bit slight. And Brass Sun is something a bit different, isnt it. Can see that im going to like this. Is this the same artist that drew the in the mountains of madness graphic novel? (yes it is, ive just googled) That looked to be pretty snazzy, as well.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: EddieHitler 23 September, 2012, 05:41:12 PM
I must admit I am not a big fan of 'painted' stories like the ABC one.  To me it overwhelms the story line and therefore makes it a distraction.
It's just an opinion that’s all please don't take offense.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: The Sherman Kid 24 September, 2012, 01:55:52 AM
[/b]Cover[/b] Superb ,as EVER from Clint Langley, the guys a genius

Dredd Okay, good news bad news.The good news we're with the proper DoC aftermath again which makes me happy and Debris has a follow up (which it needed), interested to see where we go from here.The bad news- the Art, the pixillation has already been covered, as has ,yet again more confusing layouts (I wondered who those two guys on page two were also).It is also just TOO CARTOONY, lacking detail and characterisation (Dolman still looks in his forties).The one trait I hate above all is the DOTS for eyes used by PJ or lines for exclamation, both used on page one -it looks awful and, I'm sorry, plain lazy.Draw the grudamn eyes!No more dots, sorry but its a pet hate.

Brass Sun What 2000ad is all about, novel concepts like this, loving it.

ABC Well I its not gone off on some bizarre tangent again just yet ,so its all good.

Terror Tales I was about to give this top marks, really liked it, until someone pointed out the artist is a PNE fan,and does not follow The Mighty Pool (Blackpool FC, a lifelong passion -they are local rivals).Still, nobody is perfect. ;)

Grey Area Not everyonees cup of tea but I love it.Fantastic art, smart dialogue and one very, very creepy alien thrown in this week.I hope this is given a longer run than just 4 weeks.

A very satisfying prog overall.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Montynero 24 September, 2012, 02:39:23 PM
Dredd - Hugely distracted by the pixelated art unfortunately. Disappointing, as I was looking forward to some proper post-Chaos action.

Brass Sun - Brilliant storytelling! 'Legend of the Blind Watchmaker' was a nice touch. I love the rich texture to these characters and their world. More like this, please!

ABC Warriors - Super detailed art and a nice setup for the flashback. Looking forward to the b&w too.

Terror Tale - Great atmosphere but it needed something extra at the end to reach the heights. Bagwell's art was brilliant. Pretty sure page four is just a series of photos from John Smiths lounge too ;)

Grey Area - Expert scripting and art. What's not to like?

Good prog.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Hoagy 25 September, 2012, 05:06:05 PM
Aww man! Can PJ ever catch a break?
Some of his best artwork on Dredd so far and this happens. And as concerns for new readers being put off are abound, I'm bound to agree. Even in the mid muddy nineties, there were no funk ups of this eye crossing nature!
Sorry but this broke my concentration of the story and dropped the enjoyment down 60%.
At the end I was thinking, " Yeah, but am I interested?"

I feel bad for everyone who got caught short by this. I'm sure their knotted insides are more tightly wound than mine, over it.

And having Brass Sun so beautifully repro'ed next door to it, just added insult to injury. I'm yet to read this, but it looks nice.(As in niyeece!)

ABCs and that is one cool Harry Shrapnel. Not only is it good to see the character again, it's good to see a fine rendition of he.

Terror Tale. A good reworking of an old tale for new eyes. Bagwell, I wish I had his concentration.  And Chris Weston's.

Grey Area. It's border wars of an interplanetary level. A good mingle of sci-fi and weekly crime thriller.

: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Robert Frazer 25 September, 2012, 07:15:20 PM
Seeing as "The Blind Watchmaker" was the one clever turn of phrase that Dawkins has conjured in his career as an anti-religion pundit, I have to admit that I've had a bit of a giggle in it being used for the progressive rationalist cult in Brass Sun. However, other than that I'm afraid that it's not really grabbing me. The art has a certain gentle storybook simplicity to it (also emphasised by the 'tin soldier' design of the Daywatch) and so I think that there's potential for improvement if we get to explore some of the cold grandeur and massive architecture of a clockwork universe in future instalments, but for the time being it's a little dry.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TordelBack 25 September, 2012, 07:36:20 PM
Seeing as "The Blind Watchmaker" was the one clever turn of phrase that Dawkins has conjured in his career as an anti-religion pundit...

In fairness to Dawkins, he coined that phrase as part of a defense of (and sequel to) his book The Selfish Gene, which was itself a serious piece of scientific thought, albeit presented in a popularising format.  Dismissing Dawkins as 'an anti-religion pundit' ignores his significant career as a biologist in the 1970s, and his important role in popularising key scientific concepts.

I do think the guy can at times most closely resemble a smug religious fanatic in all but his subject matter, but he's made a serious, thoughtful contribution to science and the dissemination of its results.  'Pundit' puts him at the level of John McCririck.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: SmallBlueThing 25 September, 2012, 08:27:40 PM
Without turning this into another thread about religion, i really fail to see any evidence that dawkins ever comes across as "smug". Confident in his ability to cut through the ridiculous illogic of the stupid, yes, angry at the exasperating close mindedness of the religious, definitely. But smug, never. To me 'smug' is defined by the likes of dr rowan williams and that evil ratzinger pope thing. Dawkins always comes across as open, warm and witty. I guess if you find intelligence threatening, you'll distrust him, but to call him 'smug' is baffling.

SBT
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Proudhuff 25 September, 2012, 09:02:52 PM
'Pundit' puts him at the level of John McCririck.

Shirley nobody could be THAT low!!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TordelBack 25 September, 2012, 10:53:11 PM
...to call him 'smug' is baffling.

I'm a huge fan of Dawkins, my bookshelf groaneth under the weight, as t'were, but seeing as you ask:  That's 'Smug' as in 'appears completely self-satisfied with his own rightness and his opponent's wrongness to the extent that it is irritating'.  Not sure how that squares with the dictionary definition, but that's the sense in which I intended the remark. 

I'm certainly not saying Dawkins isn't right (about most things), and I'm not saying he doesn't do his damnedest to patiently explain his incontrovertible case in words of two-or-less syllables (I borrow his arguments all the time), but sometimes, when I'm reading him or watching him, I am struck by the degree to which his reductio ad absurdum take little account of the dignity or sensitivities of those he is addressing (particularly when he ventures into areas of theology about which he does not have the expertise he has in other areas), and am uncomfortably reminded of a know-it-all clergyman brooking no dissent from the righteous safety of a pulpit. 

Now I know that the difference is that Dawkin's core arguments are open to factual challenge, but while they certainly don't bother me, I can often see him visibly getting the backs up of those he most needs to reach precisely because of the way he approaches them. This, for want of a phrase, insensitivity to or disinterest in how he affects the feelings of the benighted, strikes me as a key element of 'smugness'. 

 
 

: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Richmond Clements 25 September, 2012, 10:57:27 PM
 
Dismissing Dawkins as 'an anti-religion pundit' ignores his significant career as a biologist in the 1970s, and his important role in popularising key scientific concepts.

As always, TB, you put it better than I ever could.
I'm not a fan of Dawkins the atheist spokesperson - and I say that as a card carrying Humanist. But, as a scientist, he is unsurpassed. The Blind Watchmaker is simply one of the best books I have ever read.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: JOE SOAP 25 September, 2012, 11:04:18 PM
I'm certainly not saying Dawkins isn't right (about most things), and I'm not saying he doesn't do his damnedest to patiently explain his incontrovertible case in words of two-or-less syllables (I borrow his arguments all the time), but sometimes, when I'm reading him or watching him, I am struck by the degree to which his reductio ad absurdum take little account of the dignity or sensitivities of those he is addressing (particularly when he ventures into areas of theology about which he does not have the expertise he has in other areas), and am uncomfortably reminded of a know-it-all clergyman brooking no dissent from the righteous safety of a pulpit. 


Well he is always on the defensive.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: JOE SOAP 25 September, 2012, 11:07:51 PM
Now I know that the difference is that Dawkin's core arguments are open to factual challenge, but while they certainly don't bother me, I can often see him visibly getting the backs up of those he most needs to reach precisely because of the way he approaches them. This, for want of a phrase, insensitivity to or disinterest in how he affects the feelings of the benighted, strikes me as a key element of 'smugness'.


and sensitivity is paradoxically a trait many with a very 'spiritual' bent can have in spades.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Richmond Clements 25 September, 2012, 11:09:50 PM
that evil ratzinger pope thing

Genuine LOL there.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Fisticuffs 26 September, 2012, 09:07:48 AM
Just flicked through Grey Area again, is that a Ford KA I can see in the garage?! Guess it's a collectable antique by then. :D
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: pauljholden 26 September, 2012, 01:46:59 PM
For those disappointed in the print quality of the Dredd in Prog 1801 (and that includes me and everyone involved in the comic, believe me) here's a link to a pdf of that strip in much higher res!

http://www.2000adonline.com/news/26-09-2012/wanna_confess/
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Proudhuff 26 September, 2012, 01:52:02 PM


...(particularly when he ventures into areas of theology about which he does not have the expertise

Theology? expertise? its just reading lots, making up stuff then arguing about the made up stuff! Kinda like us discussing the Dreddverse, what's cannon,the workings of Lawgivers and Justice Dept structures.


No more silly than discussing the number of angels dancing on a pinhead, is there a heaven/hell oh and my favourite is the earth is the centre of the solar system, a theological fact for generations.

Fully agree about his ability to 'put peoples backs up' as the say round here.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Banners 26 September, 2012, 01:54:11 PM
Top man, PJ - looks great!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Link Prime 26 September, 2012, 01:54:37 PM
For those disappointed in the print quality of the Dredd in Prog 1801 (and that includes me and everyone involved in the comic, believe me) here's a link to a pdf of that strip in much higher res!

http://www.2000adonline.com/news/26-09-2012/wanna_confess/

Brilliant, cheers PJ (and decent skins working in Thrill Towers).
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Montynero 26 September, 2012, 01:56:21 PM
For those disappointed in the print quality of the Dredd in Prog 1801 (and that includes me and everyone involved in the comic, believe me) here's a link to a pdf of that strip in much higher res!

http://www.2000adonline.com/news/26-09-2012/wanna_confess/

Cheers, PJ. Good story.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: James Stacey 26 September, 2012, 02:04:43 PM
Top stuff PJ. Off to the work colour laser
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dandontdare 26 September, 2012, 02:06:59 PM
and THAT'S why they call him The Nicest Man in ComicsTM  :D
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: pauljholden 26 September, 2012, 02:18:06 PM
While I gratefully accept all the kudos for getting a hi res PDF, I didn't actually do it, you can thank tharg and the droids!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Mikey 26 September, 2012, 02:31:04 PM
Thank you Tharg and his droids then! You can away and boil yer heid if ye want PJ.

M.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Hoagy 26 September, 2012, 05:40:59 PM
Aww, that's brilliant guys, thanks.

 
For those disappointed in the print quality of the Dredd in Prog 1801 (and that includes me and everyone involved in the comic, believe me) here's a link to a pdf of that strip in much higher res!

http://www.2000adonline.com/news/26-09-2012/wanna_confess/
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TordelBack 26 September, 2012, 08:32:24 PM
Theology? expertise? its just reading lots, making up stuff then arguing about the made up stuff!

Well of course it is.  But if you're going to attack the daft things people believe in specific detail, it helps if you actually know what it is they believe, and how your arguments have previously been addressed within that belief system. 

It's like someone coming on here saying "How can Judge Rico still be appearing in the comic, he was killed way back in Prog 30, can't you see that if you believe that then the whole Judge Dredd thing must be a load of made up twaddle?". We get annoyed because we know, and anyone who had done their homework would know, that it's a different Rico - and in the process have grounds to ignore and/or reject the sound important fact: that it's just made-up. 

It's a bad approach: religious nerds are still nerds, if you troll us do we not froth?
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Proudhuff 04 October, 2012, 01:27:06 PM
Theology? expertise? its just reading lots, making up stuff then arguing about the made up stuff!

Well of course it is.  But if you're going to attack the daft things people believe in specific detail, it helps if you actually know what it is they believe, and how your arguments have previously been addressed within that belief system. 

It's like someone coming on here saying "How can Judge Rico still be appearing in the comic, he was killed way back in Prog 30, can't you see that if you believe that then the whole Judge Dredd thing must be a load of made up twaddle?". We get annoyed because we know, and anyone who had done their homework would know, that it's a different Rico - and in the process have grounds to ignore and/or reject the sound important fact: that it's just made-up. 

It's a bad approach: religious nerds are still nerds, if you troll us do we not froth?

Fair enough, but does that mean one has to learn ALL about the Flying Spagetti Monster Creationism before I dismiss it as the ravings of some deluded inbred fishf*cker?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19814284 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19814284)


Ps pinched your troll thing 
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TordelBack 04 October, 2012, 01:46:48 PM
Fair enough, but does that mean one has to learn ALL about the Flying Spagetti Monster Creationism before I dismiss it as the ravings of some deluded inbred fishf*cker?

If you had been touched by his noodly appendages, you would know all there is to know.

No, you make a fair point.  I suppose I'm coming from a fairly narrow perspective where I've seen otherwise rational religious people take umbrage at Dawkins' manner and dismiss the rest of his generally irresistable logic as a result.  It seems incredible to me that anyone could read something straightforward like Greatest Show on Earth and come away with their faith undented, just because they think Dawkins doesn't really 'get' Aquinas, but I've met 'em. On theI have even been leant books designed to square christianity with evolution



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19814284 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19814284)

See, this I don't really mind, as long as the context of explanations is explained.  Sometimes just-so stories are fun.  I always throw the kids the fantasy reasoning for everything geological and archaeological, and I even did it when I was lecturing: stories surrounding Fionn McCumhail's Griddle or Leaba Diarmuid agus Grainne can be just as interesting in what they say about cultural responses to monumentality within an agricultural landscape as any amount of waffle about gneissose schist capstone 2.5m x 0.75 x 1.5m cantered on paired imbricated sidestones, indicative of a communal but segmented society.  And so forth.

: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: TordelBack 04 October, 2012, 01:48:57 PM
On theI have even been leant books designed to square christianity with evolution

That should have read: 

On the other hand I've been lent well-written well-intentioned books designed to square christianity with evolution, and the logical holes therein make me angry.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: A.Cow 10 October, 2012, 02:33:29 AM
I've seen otherwise rational religious people take umbrage at Dawkins' manner and dismiss the rest of his generally irresistable logic as a result.

Definitely.  Dawkins is the science equivalent of gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell.
To quote Ian Hislop, "People don't hate Tatchell because he's gay; they hate him because he's Peter Tatchell."

Personally, I find Dawkins to be every bit as self-righteous & arrogant as the people he attacks.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Cactus 12 October, 2012, 06:30:06 PM
Seeing as "The Blind Watchmaker" was the one clever turn of phrase that Dawkins has conjured in his career as an anti-religion pundit...

In fairness to Dawkins, he coined that phrase as part of a defense of (and sequel to) his book The Selfish Gene, which was itself a serious piece of scientific thought, albeit presented in a popularising format.  Dismissing Dawkins as 'an anti-religion pundit' ignores his significant career as a biologist in the 1970s, and his important role in popularising key scientific concepts.

Dawkins was also referring back to Bishop William Paley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Paley)'s Natural Theology: or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity.

It took nearly 15 years but I knew it was worth keeping those undergraduate essays! It's also interesting to note that when I wrote said essay I had to book a period of time in the university library's 'old and valuable books room' in which I could carefully read the book and take notes. Now the whole text is online (http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=A142&viewtype=text&pageseq=1) and I could read it on the bus if I wanted to. It's this kind of thing that causes futsies.
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Dandontdare 13 October, 2012, 12:04:14 AM
It's also interesting to note that when I wrote said essay I had to book a period of time in the university library's 'old and valuable books room' in which I could carefully read the book and take notes. Now the whole text is online (http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=A142&viewtype=text&pageseq=1) and I could read it on the bus if I wanted to. It's this kind of thing that causes futsies.

I know what you mean!

I remember thinking the whole 'Futsie' idea being ridiculous back then (why would they call it 'Future' shock, cos it'd be the present to them"?) but nowadays, i can seriously see it. It's another aspect of 2000ad being prescient - we don't have a name for it but I'm sure loads of people go batshit cos they can't cope with  rapid modern developments.

PS:   AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
KILL YOU ALL!
UNAUTHORISED ITEM IN THE BAGGING AREA?
I'VE PERFORMED AN  ILLEGAL OPERATION HAVE I?
PASSWORD NOT RECOGNISED?

Yeah, I'm hanging on to the edge of futsie by the fingernails!
: Re: Prog 1801 Green Death On The Red Planet
: Mabs 13 October, 2012, 12:13:20 AM
It's also interesting to note that when I wrote said essay I had to book a period of time in the university library's 'old and valuable books room' in which I could carefully read the book and take notes. Now the whole text is online (http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=A142&viewtype=text&pageseq=1) and I could read it on the bus if I wanted to. It's this kind of thing that causes futsies.

I know what you mean!

I remember thinking the whole 'Futsie' idea being ridiculous back then (why would they call it 'Future' shock, cos it'd be the present to them"?) but nowadays, i can seriously see it. It's another aspect of 2000ad being prescient - we don't have a name for it but I'm sure loads of people go batshit cos they can't cope with  rapid modern developments.

PS:   AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
KILL YOU ALL!
UNAUTHORISED ITEM IN THE BAGGING AREA?
I'VE PERFORMED AN  ILLEGAL OPERATION HAVE I?
PASSWORD NOT RECOGNISED?


Yeah, I'm hanging on to the edge of futsie by the fingernails!

^THIS. :D

 I couldn't agree more mate!