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Spoilers => Prog => : JamesC 01 June, 2013, 10:43:26 AM

: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: JamesC 01 June, 2013, 10:43:26 AM
Cover - Here we have an image of a couple of Victorian freaks fighting off a group of dinosaur men. Unfortunately it's so hard to make out that all the impact is lost. Certainly wouldn't make me pick up the prog if I wasn't a regular reader.

Dredd - really enjoyed the final episode of this story. There's a nice little twist at the end and I'm looking forward to seeing what Mr Carroll has in store for us next.

There's an advert for the complete Zenith which is now available to pre-order at the Future Shop. Exciting!

Anderson - Another enjoyable episode. Not much more to say about this really.

Sin/Dex - The story progresses quite a bit in this episode and I like the look of where it's going. I always enjoy this strip and I like John Burns art but I just wish he'd put something in to show that this is taking place in the future, on another planet! At the moment it looks like the lost artwork from a Kojak strip or something.

Stickleback - Haven't been reading it but it ends with a double length episode this week.

There's a beautifully designed advert for Defoe inside the back cover. This strip returns next week along with a Terror Tale.


Overall not a bad prog at all and it looks like things will pick up even more next week. Pleased to see that Zenith is going to see the light of day again too.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: House of Usher 01 June, 2013, 01:54:40 PM
Dredd spoiler:

I can't reconcile the stated method for turning a male embryo into an XY female with the knock-on result that the XY female gets pregnant. From the technique described and the very fact of her being an XY female, Jessica Paris ought to be infertile, with hypogonadism, and oughtn't to have undergone puberty without hormone supplements. Justice Department medical technicians must have got up to some really weird Frankenstein business to grant her fertility, which seems perverse when judges are not supposed to go in for sexual relations, much less have offspring of their own.

Sorry to carp so early. First story I read; I haven't seen the rest of the Prog yet. 'The Forsaken' has been an enjoyable linear mystery tale and kept my interest week after week.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Colin YNWA 02 June, 2013, 09:11:18 PM
Wow quiet here and must admit I forgot to get to my review as well. I guess the big news this week is the double length end of Stickleback and were as I haven't enjoyed the story so much this time around I really quite enjoyed now it all wrapped up... or didn't as the case maybe.

The Dredd had a solid ending, I for one am not too fussed if the science doesn't match up with 21st Century science, cos ya know Sci-Fi and all that. The ending does set up some very interesting potential for the future even if the story itself kinda just peters out a little. I do think this one will benefit from a one sitting re-read.

Anderson is a real nice peak behind the curtains leaving the star of the show to be Sinister Dexter a great episode and a really nice resolution to the cliff-hanger from last week. So glad this strip is back and seems the break has done it no harm at all.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: House of Usher 02 June, 2013, 09:27:19 PM
The Dredd had a solid ending, I for one am not too fussed if the science doesn't match up with 21st Century science, cos ya know Sci-Fi and all that.

It's a bit more complicated than that, but yeah.

Specifically, C21st XY females are infertile, but C22nd XY female (judges) aren't.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Pop Culture Bandit 05 June, 2013, 11:06:38 AM
Surprised at the lack of comments this Prog has generated.

Dredd - Well, that took me by surprise - I expected Cadet Paris to be dead, not pregnant! - Hopefully the Carroll droid has more plans for this plot thread after the time spent on developing it over the last six weeks.

Sinister Dexter - Again, a surprising turn of events in terms of escaping the cliffhanger from the week before. This has been an okay start, but we really need to start moving the plot along and get Sinister and Dexter together soon.

Cadet Anderson - A bit of a slow-burner again, but with the disadvantage of being a flashback story so you know nothing will happen to rock the status quo. I do like the psychedelic element to the dream sequence, which looks to dominate next Prog.

Stickleback - A good ending and nicely setting up a new gang for Stickleback to lead with Moody and the unnamed dinosaur hybrid guy. Definitely looking forward to seeing more of this in the future, especially if it continues to move forward rather than relying on past stories/old characters.

For a more detailed review, check out my blog review here:  http://popculturebandit.blogspot.com/2013/06/2000ad-prog-1835.html (http://popculturebandit.blogspot.com/2013/06/2000ad-prog-1835.html)
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: The Adventurer 05 June, 2013, 11:37:11 AM
Digital Prog just dropped, blew through it. Dredd ends in an interesting way. I love Dolman. Brothers of the Blood was one of the first Judge Dredd strips I ever read and its been fascinating to see how Dolman has developed since.

Cadet Anderson isn't really thrilling me. Stickleback ends well, though the reveal at the end felt a bit predictable.

Sin Dex is just fab. Great art and great story. Though I do want to see Ray and Tracy back in the spot light. Like caseworker lady. Hope she sticks around. As for Generica coming across as a bit 'not very space or future' I honestly wonder if that's not intentional. Based of a few character comments and the general look of the place, I get the feeling that Generica might be an exact duplication of late 90 America. Like down to its geography and everything. I mean, that would be weird and impractical but it's Sin Dex.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: JamesC 05 June, 2013, 11:56:12 AM
Digital Prog just dropped, blew through it. Dredd ends in an interesting way. I love Dolman. Brothers of the Blood was one of the first Judge Dredd strips I ever read and its been fascinating to see how Dolman has developed since.

Cadet Anderson isn't really thrilling me. Stickleback ends well, though the reveal at the end felt a bit predictable.

Sin Dex is just fab. Great art and great story. Though I do want to see Ray and Tracy back in the spot light. Like caseworker lady. Hope she sticks around. As for Generica coming across as a bit 'not very space or future' I honestly wonder if that's not intentional. Based of a few character comments and the general look of the place, I get the feeling that Generica might be an exact duplication of late 90 America. Like down to its geography and everything. I mean, that would be weird and impractical but it's Sin Dex.

Maybe, but then even the guns and stuff look old fashioned and I'm pretty sure that this wasn't an issue in the original Malone story.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Recrewt 05 June, 2013, 01:29:47 PM
Don't recall the Malone story but I did wonder myself if Generica was supposed to be some 1950s based place where everything is retro - if that were the case though, a bit of narrative would have been nice to explain it.

That doesn't explain why the cover to prog 1832 seemed to show us a more futuristic Generica (well, that's where I assumed he was on that cover).
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: I, Cosh 05 June, 2013, 01:34:51 PM
Maybe, but then even the guns and stuff look old fashioned and I'm pretty sure that this wasn't an issue in the original Malone story.
My recollection of Malone is that it had a distinct, deliberate pulpy noir look and feel to it with the only thing making it obviously SF being the references to characters coming from or wanting to get "Offworld" rather than to "The Big City."
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Colin YNWA 05 June, 2013, 03:07:10 PM
Maybe, but then even the guns and stuff look old fashioned and I'm pretty sure that this wasn't an issue in the original Malone story.
My recollection of Malone is that it had a distinct, deliberate pulpy noir look and feel to it with the only thing making it obviously SF being the references to characters coming from or wanting to get "Offworld" rather than to "The Big City."

Yeah can't fault that assessment. The art gave it a distinctly noir tone, which I guess was driven my the script given the story and heck even the title 'Malone' has a very noir feel to it. I read it not that long ago and hopefully even my dodgy memory is playing tricks there.

To be honest though the sci'fi elements are often underplayed in Sinister Dexter, especially on a visual level. Generally the clothing is fairly contemporary, cars still look like cars, guns like guns, inverse ninjas like inver... well I did say often, not all the time...
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: JamesC 05 June, 2013, 03:19:04 PM
It's hard to find any images on the web to back up my point but...

If you scroll down to the bottom third of this page there's a Malone cover by Dylan Teague -

http://2000adcovers.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/cliff-and-dylan-rip-roaring-combination.html

As you can see, it still has that pulpy vibe but there are just enough pointers to let the reader know, even at a glance, that this isn't set in the past. The street signs, the electronic panel on the door and the very slightly futuristic looking gun.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Hawkmumbler 05 June, 2013, 04:46:00 PM
Dredd- Loved it loved it loved it loved it! One of the best p-DoC stories thus far and add's another stonking thread to Carroll's tapestry. What a pair of legends you clever boys are. More please.

Anderson- Meh story, nice art. Not The King at his best i'm afraid.

Sin/Dex- So Frontal just buggered off because Finny went all Care Bears on him? Funt me!

Stickleback- Yes. More please.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: The Sherman Kid 05 June, 2013, 06:48:26 PM
Dredd A good solid story that showed some of the wider impact of Chaos day that was pretty enjoyable. Pleased to see I was right with the clone turning out to be female, lots of potential for the future there methinks (reminds me whatever happened to Vienna's baby.....?).

Bit confused over the status of Uranium City (this is Alaska right?).Why do the judges look exactly like Mega City One judges? They have no jurisdiction there.

Trawling the web, there was a forum thread on it where this was brought up. Here's what PJ said -

"Given that no-one is that sure what they look like you could always make 'em up :)

-pj".

True ,but making them exactly like Mega City judges is both lazy and confusing.
I also wish PJ would stop using slits for eyes and draw them (the gate guard had no face in one panel at all - :-\). It makes the artwork look 'cartoony' at times, when overall he his a good artist. Nitpicking maybe but I notice it everytime.

Cadet Anderson Pretty good, interesting to see psi cadets learning their craft.

Sinister Its a pass for me.

Stickleback Brilliant. The dialogue is just fantastic.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: LorcanQ 05 June, 2013, 07:17:47 PM
DREDD - Solid ending, 6 parts already? Aimed more at people who are more familiar with dredd continuity than me i think but still, perfectly easy to understand and was entertaining.

ANDERSON - Hmm. not impressed with this really. The fact its dialogue-light means its pretty easy reading, but, as with last issue, there was little to no plot momentum and character development so it just feels empty more than anything.

SIN DEX - Still the highlight. Story progressed a lot without feeling rushed and the characters all felt very real

Didnt read stickleback.

The mention of the submissions pile was a nice touch in the damage report

The Damned teaser (whatever it is) was fantastic!
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Steve Green 05 June, 2013, 09:21:16 PM
Dredd A good solid story that showed some of the wider impact of Chaos day that was pretty enjoyable. Pleased to see I was right with the clone turning out to be female, lots of potential for the future there methinks (reminds me whatever happened to Vienna's baby.....?).

Bit confused over the status of Uranium City (this is Alaska right?).Why do the judges look exactly like Mega City One judges? They have no jurisdiction there.

Trawling the web, there was a forum thread on it where this was brought up. Here's what PJ said -

"Given that no-one is that sure what they look like you could always make 'em up :)

-pj".

True ,but making them exactly like Mega City judges is both lazy and confusing.
I also wish PJ would stop using slits for eyes and draw them (the gate guard had no face in one panel at all - :-\). It makes the artwork look 'cartoony' at times, when overall he his a good artist. Nitpicking maybe but I notice it everytime.

Cadet Anderson Pretty good, interesting to see psi cadets learning their craft.

Sinister Its a pass for me.

Stickleback Brilliant. The dialogue is just fantastic.

Let's see - MC2 Judges aren't noticeably different - Texas City are mostly the same uniform apart from a belt buckle and a cowboy hat.

I'd prefer that route than increasingly unlikely animals to stick on a shoulder pad.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Darren Stephens 05 June, 2013, 09:22:32 PM
Loved the cover. Absolute beauty!

Highlight of the program was Dredd for me. Really enjoyed this tale ands PJs art has been superb. I think Blythes colouring really works well here, too.

Sin/Dex leaves me a little cold overall, but the rest of the prog was aces.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: DrJomster 05 June, 2013, 09:42:35 PM
Bit surprised nobody's commented on the semi transparent cadet in panel 2, page 1 of Anderson...

Good prog though!
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 05 June, 2013, 11:28:34 PM
Bit surprised nobody's commented on the semi transparent cadet in panel 2, page 1 of Anderson...

Possibly they'd noticed her before, say in the previous two parts?   ;)
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: The Adventurer 05 June, 2013, 11:39:25 PM
Still curious if that's some kind of adaptive Camo, or if the kid's Psi power is making themselves invisible to others.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Dark Jimbo 06 June, 2013, 12:00:20 AM
Let's see - MC2 Judges aren't noticeably different - Texas City are mostly the same uniform apart from a belt buckle and a cowboy hat.

I'd prefer that route than increasingly unlikely animals to stick on a shoulder pad.

But conversely Hondo, Emerald Isle and Oz Judges are all totally distinct designs from the Big Meg and not one makes use of animal shoulder pads, so that argument could be flipped either way.

A certain similarity in uniform makes sense, but Sherman's right in that an exact copy just seems lazy and uninspired.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Hawkmumbler 06 June, 2013, 12:04:03 AM
Could swear Hondo judges Day Stick/ Lawgiver/ Beaty thing was initialy snake orientated? :|
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 06 June, 2013, 01:04:07 AM
But conversely Hondo, Emerald Isle and Oz Judges are all totally distinct designs from the Big Meg

None of those derive from the pre-war United States Judge system.  Look at Las Vegas, MC-2, even Texas City: all follow the MC-1 uniform closely, because all were originally part of the same American system.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: JOE SOAP 06 June, 2013, 01:11:43 AM

I'd prefer that route than increasingly unlikely animals to stick on a shoulder pad.


I wonder which nation/city-state could go for the horn of the unlikely unicorn?

: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Mabs 06 June, 2013, 02:31:02 AM
I thought the ending to Dredd was rather poignant, a sort of innocence lost kind of thing. The image of the Cadets in happier times makes their horrifying ordeal which was to follow all the more gut wrenching. Great stuff from Mike Carroll and P.J!
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: DrJomster 06 June, 2013, 06:41:02 AM
Bit surprised nobody's commented on the semi transparent cadet in panel 2, page 1 of Anderson...

Possibly they'd noticed her before, say in the previous two parts?   ;)

Ha! You might be right! :D
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Bat King 06 June, 2013, 08:12:49 AM
My review... I need to work harder on the Proof reviews, find myself holding back on spoilers. Will consider what to day about next Prof more deeply.

 http://judgetutorsemple.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/2000ad-prog-1835-general-release-050613-spoilers/
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: radiator 06 June, 2013, 12:05:45 PM
Aimed more at people who are more familiar with dredd continuity than me i think

Hmmm, personally I think the failing of a lot of non-Wagner Dredds in the past has been that they seem to get hung up on the minutiae of Dredd continuity (for instance a lot of these post DoC stories), whereas Wagner himself has a knack for avoiding that trap and always writing accessible stories that don't feel like they're particularly written for the hardcore fans.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Richmond Clements 06 June, 2013, 12:07:53 PM
Aimed more at people who are more familiar with dredd continuity than me i think

Hmmm, personally I think the failing of a lot of non-Wagner Dredds in the past has been that they seem to get hung up on the minutiae of Dredd continuity (for instance a lot of these post DoC stories), whereas Wagner himself has a knack for avoiding that trap and always writing accessible stories that don't feel like they're particularly written for the hardcore fans.

Really? Origins and Life and Death of Johnny Alpha are pretty much nothing but continuity.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 06 June, 2013, 12:40:55 PM
I don't think the issue is continuity itself (as RAC points out), it's more a case of writers looking for handy elements to tie their story into the Dredd universe and give it relevance (thus dodging the hateful fanboy term 'filler') without pointlessly tinkering with the character of Joe Dredd or altering the MC-1 status quo too much.  We have an odd situation with the Dredd strip where all rightly defer to Wagner's vision, since even when he's not writing it's not like he's passed the baton to any one writer, but where so much that is good has come from other creators. 

It's a grounding counterpoint to the business of introducing your own characters and long-running plotlines.  Looking at Young Master Carroll, you can see the way he's pursuing these two directions: his East-in-the-West MC-2 Sovs sequence being his own, and his Dolman: Clone in the City stories depending much more closely on existing Wagner elements. 

It's playing with the toys already in the Wagner sandpit as well as your own, rather than digging a giant hole and burying everything (you can tell I'm looking after kids in the sunshine, can't you).
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: radiator 06 June, 2013, 01:22:02 PM
Really? Origins and Life and Death of Johnny Alpha are pretty much nothing but continuity.

Someone who had never read a Judge Dredd comic before could pick up Origins and enjoy it. The only thing that might throw them slightly would be those goofy robots form The Cursed Earth. It's in no way continuity-porn - in fact I remember certain people grumbling at the time because it didn't just dryly recount the creation of Justice Department in great detail. Likewise Life and Death - it's pushing the wider story forward - if you ask me the pre-Life and Death Strontium Dog flashback stories felt more guilty of what I'm talking about as a lot of the time they just seemed aimed at nostalgic fans of the original run rather than new readers.

it's more a case of writers looking for handy elements to tie their story into the Dredd universe and give it relevance (thus dodging the hateful fanboy term 'filler')

Personally I'm not keen on strips that hinge on obscure bits of Dredd lore and trivia as it can, in my opinion, feel a little self-referential and fan-service-y.

I'm not referring to any writer in particular and haven't got round to reading the current Dredd story yet, so I'm not commenting on that either, I'm just making a pretty broad observation.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Steve Green 06 June, 2013, 01:50:50 PM
Could swear Hondo judges Day Stick/ Lawgiver/ Beaty thing was initialy snake orientated? :|

Not that I recall.

Sino-cit judges have a Dragon - maybe that's what you're thinking of, Brit-cit - Lions, South-Am Judges a Condor, Uranium City - A moose from what I recall, didn't the Pan-African Judge have some kind of animal shoulder pad as well?

As has been stated - makes more sense to keep it within the same pre-war design, and there's not really enough shown to make it worthwhile.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Mikey 06 June, 2013, 02:02:39 PM
I also wish PJ would stop using slits for eyes and draw them (the gate guard had no face in one panel at all - :-\). It makes the artwork look 'cartoony' at times, when overall he his a good artist.

So the degree of realism exhibited is the only mark of quality in art? And you're arguing this on a comic forum? The 2000ad forum? 

M.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Recrewt 06 June, 2013, 02:03:03 PM
The whole continuity issue is more noticeable in the prog and meg at the moment due to the fallout from DoC - certainly the last three Dredd stories in the prog have all been tied to it, so any new reader jumping on board right now is going to wonder what's going on. 
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Goaty 06 June, 2013, 03:54:10 PM
so any new reader jumping on board right now is going to wonder what's going on.

So buy a book.

(http://www.scifinow.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Judge-Dredd-Fourth-Faction-review.jpg)
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Recrewt 06 June, 2013, 04:58:16 PM
so any new reader jumping on board right now is going to wonder what's going on.

So buy a book.

Indeed, but buying that book will only get them half the story!  The 2nd book is not out until July.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Molch-R 06 June, 2013, 04:59:27 PM
They could always buy the back issues ;)

http://shop.2000adonline.com/categories/comics
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Recrewt 06 June, 2013, 05:01:04 PM
Oh - he's on fire today!  ;)
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: The Sherman Kid 06 June, 2013, 06:25:42 PM
I also wish PJ would stop using slits for eyes and draw them (the gate guard had no face in one panel at all - :-\). It makes the artwork look 'cartoony' at times, when overall he his a good artist.

So the degree of realism exhibited is the only mark of quality in art? And you're arguing this on a comic forum? The 2000ad forum? 

M.
"Only mark"?Nope wasnt arguing that at all.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 06 June, 2013, 06:26:16 PM
The specific issue with continuity in the post-DoC stories is this: the judges lost, completely and irrevocably, and the MC-1 Our Hero was created to serve is dead.  Dredd's story at the moment is scurrying about trying to do something with the pieces that are left.  As a surviving citizen, it is very likely that your entire family and most people you knew are dead (as cleverly evoked in Rennie and Beeby's collaboration). This is not some temporary overthrow of power or some supernatural disaster, this is the sad protracted self-inflicted end of the greatest city on Earth.

Without including this event, which happened in the past year, there's no way of telling any valid story about MC-1 in 2135.

For my money, the earlier post-DoC stories (or the retro-fitted ones) suffered from not grasping this nettle, presumably because it really wasn't apparent when the story was pitched or scripted.  Even in the current hard-hitting story, I don't really see the full horror of what has happened: we see riots, lawlessness, hopelessness, but we don't see what it was those things were consciously created to serve: the spread of the Chaos Bug itself. 

Which isn't to say that I want things to stay like that forever, but for now, for better or worse, Dredd stories that don't acknowledge and foreground what's just happened are missing the point. 

Also, and as a more general point, gripes about stories requiring knowledge of past stories annoy me.  Yes, it'd be great if things were entirely self-contained for the new reader, but after 36 years week-in week-out it'd also be completely ridiculous.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Richmond Clements 06 June, 2013, 06:38:26 PM
Also, and as a more general point, gripes about stories requiring knowledge of past stories annoy me.  Yes, it'd be great if things were entirely self-contained for the new reader, but after 36 years week-in week-out it'd also be completely ridiculous.

This. But it is the classic comic fan behaviour. Refer to the past? They complain. DO something new? They complain.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Mister Pops 06 June, 2013, 06:44:43 PM
Also, and as a more general point, gripes about stories requiring knowledge of past stories annoy me.  Yes, it'd be great if things were entirely self-contained for the new reader, but after 36 years week-in week-out it'd also be completely ridiculous.

This. But it is the classic comic fan behaviour. Refer to the past? They complain. DO something new? They complain.

You make a sensible point. I COMPLETELY DISAGREE!
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: The Sherman Kid 06 June, 2013, 06:46:20 PM
The specific issue with continuity in the post-DoC stories is this: the judges lost, completely and irrevocably, and the MC-1 Our Hero was created to serve is dead.  Dredd's story at the moment is scurrying about trying to do something with the pieces that are left.  As a surviving citizen, it is very likely that your entire family and most people you knew are dead (as cleverly evoked in Rennie and Beeby's collaboration). This is not some temporary overthrow of power or some supernatural disaster, this is the sad protracted self-inflicted end of the greatest city on Earth.

Without including this event, which happened in the past year, there's no way of telling any valid story about MC-1 in 2135.

For my money, the earlier post-DoC stories (or the retro-fitted ones) suffered from not grasping this nettle, presumably
because it really wasn't apparent when the story was pitched or scripted.  Even in the current hard-hitting story, I don't really see the full horror of what has happened: we see riots, lawlessness, hopelessness, but we don't see what it was those things were consciously created to serve: the spread of the Chaos Bug itself. 

Which isn't to say that I want things to stay like that forever, but for now, for better or worse, Dredd stories that don't acknowledge and foreground what's just happened are missing the point. 

Also, and as a more general point, gripes about stories requiring knowledge of past stories annoy me.  Yes, it'd be great if things were entirely self-contained for the new reader, but after 36 years week-in week-out it'd also be completely ridiculous.

Really like this post.Probably because I agree with it 100%
 
 :P
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: radiator 06 June, 2013, 07:09:21 PM
I feel like two different arguments are being conflated here.

There's continuity and backstory - like say all recent Dredd stories being set in a ruined city, and then there's fan-service - ie basing entire stories around obscure, decades-old bits of trivia. In my personal opinion, this is a trap new writers occasionally fall into when they're writing for established characters.

But it is the classic comic fan behaviour. Refer to the past? They complain. DO something new? They complain.

Sorry, thought this was a forum for reviewing and discussing 2000ad comics.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 06 June, 2013, 07:17:50 PM
...and then there's fan-service - ie basing entire stories around obscure, decades-old bits of trivia. In my personal opinion, this is a trap new writers occasionally fall into when they're writing for established characters.

Very, very true.  And it does happen a lot.

However, sometimes it pays off: Rico II and all the family-related goodness that followed stemmed from the McGuffin in Dredd Angel, Vienna herself was a bit of anachronistic trivia otherwise best forgotten, Sinfield's downfall stemmed from a chemical in an ancient PJ Maybe story.  Building from throwaway details or incidental characters can work wonders.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Richmond Clements 06 June, 2013, 07:23:32 PM
Sorry, thought this was a forum for reviewing and discussing 2000ad comics.

And your point?
Unless I'm being terribly dim, that's what's happening.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: The Adventurer 06 June, 2013, 08:34:16 PM
The specific issue with continuity in the post-DoC stories is this: the judges lost, completely and irrevocably, and the MC-1 Our Hero was created to serve is dead.  Dredd's story at the moment is scurrying about trying to do something with the pieces that are left. 

Well you say that. But I've yet to really get the impression that the Judges are in a precarious position post DoC. I mean, we are often shown crumbling sectors, and reminded about how many people died.

But the city still seems to function, the Judges still seem to judge, and the world keeps turning. So I've been a bit disappointed with the ramifications of Day of Chaos. Like Rebellion just can't pull the trigger on how BAD things would actually be if that much of the city was wrecked. It should basically be those Apocalypse War scenes after the bombs drop and Dredd and the Judges are roving around, all. the. time.

IMO
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Goaty 06 June, 2013, 08:49:05 PM


Great prog today.

and for all talks about Dredd post-DoC stories, I still think the aftermath hadn't affect the Mega-City 1 yet, so long wait for next big story that will happens...

I love to be wrong...?
: Re: Re: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: sheldipez 06 June, 2013, 08:52:10 PM
The specific issue with continuity in the post-DoC stories is this: the judges lost, completely and irrevocably, and the MC-1 Our Hero was created to serve is dead.  Dredd's story at the moment is scurrying about trying to do something with the pieces that are left. 

Well you say that. But I've yet to really get the impression that the Judges are in a precarious position post DoC. I mean, we are often shown crumbling sectors, and reminded about how many people died.

But the city still seems to function, the Judges still seem to judge, and the world keeps turning. So I've been a bit disappointed with the ramifications of Day of Chaos. Like Rebellion just can't pull the trigger on how BAD things would actually be if that much of the city was wrecked. It should basically be those Apocalypse War scenes after the bombs drop and Dredd and the Judges are roving around, all. the. time.

IMO

The biggest thing I've noticed post DoC was the 1st page synopsis changed to reflect the reduced 50 million cit count ;D Other than that I don't feel they've done a great job of really getting the insane loss and devastation across well.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: LorcanQ 06 June, 2013, 09:02:15 PM
The specific issue with continuity in the post-DoC stories is this: the judges lost, completely and irrevocably, and the MC-1 Our Hero was created to serve is dead.  Dredd's story at the moment is scurrying about trying to do something with the pieces that are left.  As a surviving citizen, it is very likely that your entire family and most people you knew are dead (as cleverly evoked in Rennie and Beeby's collaboration). This is not some temporary overthrow of power or some supernatural disaster, this is the sad protracted self-inflicted end of the greatest city on Earth.

Without including this event, which happened in the past year, there's no way of telling any valid story about MC-1 in 2135.

For my money, the earlier post-DoC stories (or the retro-fitted ones) suffered from not grasping this nettle, presumably because it really wasn't apparent when the story was pitched or scripted.  Even in the current hard-hitting story, I don't really see the full horror of what has happened: we see riots, lawlessness, hopelessness, but we don't see what it was those things were consciously created to serve: the spread of the Chaos Bug itself. 

Which isn't to say that I want things to stay like that forever, but for now, for better or worse, Dredd stories that don't acknowledge and foreground what's just happened are missing the point. 

Also, and as a more general point, gripes about stories requiring knowledge of past stories annoy me.  Yes, it'd be great if things were entirely self-contained for the new reader, but after 36 years week-in week-out it'd also be completely ridiculous.

As my comment was what started this whole discussion...
My original comment was : "DREDD - Solid ending, 6 parts already? Aimed more at people who are more familiar with dredd continuity than me i think but still, perfectly easy to understand and was entertaining."
So first off, it wasn't a gripe in the slightest, I was just saying the story wasn't aimed at me it was aimed at long-time readers, which i have no problem with.

Secondly, I have no problem understanding that all this is after DoC which, from what ive gathered, was a war, something to do with the Russians, meg-city 1 is a mess, the Judges are struggling to hold power. That's all well and good and it'd be essential for stories to follow on from that. How I felt this week's story was continuity heavy was that the whole reason and shock ending of the story was that first, dredd has a female clone and second, that she's pregnant. Not even realising (until this story began) that Dredd had a clone at all (ie. Dolman), this ending had no effect on me whatsoever. However, for a long time reader familiar with Dolman, cloning, etc. it could have a huge effect.

That said, I don't have a problem with it at all. It's a dredd story for dredd fans. However, that the plot relies more or less completely on the build-up to this shock ending means it is in no way aimed at new readers.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 06 June, 2013, 09:03:23 PM
But the city still seems to function, the Judges still seem to judge, and the world keeps turning. So I've been a bit disappointed with the ramifications of Day of Chaos. Like Rebellion just can't pull the trigger on how BAD things would actually be if that much of the city was wrecked. It should basically be those Apocalypse War scenes after the bombs drop and Dredd and the Judges are roving around, all. the. time.

You're not wrong (although the physical destruction of urban fabric and disproportionate loss of Judges shouldn't be as severe as the Apocalypse War). I don't think any of the post-DoC stories have really dealt with the implications of the final part. While many have tackled specific aspects successfully (PTSD, secessionism, attempted coups, breakdown of supplies and services), the overall picture hasn't been seen: the sheer scale of the deaths, the loss of the Academy and any hope of recovery, what it really means to try to police a giant sprawling graveyard sporadically populated with people you have utterly failed.

: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: JOE SOAP 06 June, 2013, 09:28:05 PM



And what the drokk happened to Total War...


: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Goaty 06 June, 2013, 09:32:03 PM


Wipe out?

: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: The Sherman Kid 06 June, 2013, 09:39:01 PM

 the overall picture hasn't been seen: the sheer scale of the deaths, the loss of the Academy and any hope of recovery, what it really means to try to police a giant sprawling graveyard sporadically populated with people you have utterly failed.

Been waiting patiently for this too. Really need to see things on a larger scale, there must swathes of the city practically empty. No real mention of how the chaos bug affected the rest of the world either.

Maybe a story on Judge suicide, almost unheard of previously (except when physically cornered ,as a sacrifice (good old Souster) or about to be arrested for corruption).
Remember Odell after Necropolis?
Their lives are centred on serving the populace. Most of their cits have just bit the dust, that must have a deep impact on the rank and file. It would give an opportunity to present an overview as part of the story.
One for the suggestion box.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Albion 06 June, 2013, 10:58:07 PM
I see a board member gets a name check in the Prog. Robbins Bar eh?
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Dog Deever 07 June, 2013, 12:42:43 AM
I've enjoyed The Forsaken, and it does suddenly feel like how I imagined post-DoC to be. PJ's art has been top drawer throughout and it's been the leading light in the prog for me throughout it's run. Likely because of the big reveals in the story, it in no way has felt throwaway. Great, memorable stuff.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Zarjazzer 08 June, 2013, 10:12:53 AM
Loved the cover and Stickleback dominates the whole prog for me not just due to it's length. Where else in comics can you read of the lead character saved inside the body of a dead/undead/frankensteined colleague? Fantastic storytelling and art with a nice lead into what is presumably the next series.

Enjoyed Dredd and Anderson-especially the last Dredd panel.

: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Dan Banks 09 June, 2013, 01:48:09 PM
Bit late in getting my thoughts out for this one. I'm blaming Tharg for having a little Defoe sale in the shop.

A lot has been said about Dredd already so I'll just say that I loved it. It reads very well in one sitting as well. Special mention to how Dolman played Falcon during their little scuffle, excellent. I agree with LorcanQ that the cloning side of things had little effect on me as a new reader but I'd argue that the story was interesting enough that the cliffhanger ending was just a bonus.

Anderson was pretty decent without being spectacular. The trippy last page was excellent though. Sinister Dexter really surprised me this week. I re-read up to this point (mostly looking at the art style to be honest after I'd enquired about it last week) and it all started to click into place. 'Malone' calming everyone down and playing peace keeper was very unexpected but very welcome. Looking forward to the next part. Also, Mr Burns does seem to use that shift in style in certain panels quite often, usually to show the darker or shaded panels so apologies to him.

And the finale of Stickleback. Now this was all about continuity, never mind Dredd! I'm adding all previous Stickleback to my 'Find and Read' list. There have been some really great moments dotted around the series but without knowing the background I've struggled to get into it. Ah well.

On a similar note (thanks again to Tharg and the shop-droids) I am completely up to date on Defoe (loved every panel of it) and am about to fly through prog 1836 with no continuity worries at all. Doing it right.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Large48 09 June, 2013, 07:34:50 PM
Albion, yes saw it at last, tend to buy the Prog on a Sat, kind of ironic as I don't drink...........  :o
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Apestrife 10 June, 2013, 07:22:19 AM
The whole continuity issue is more noticeable in the prog and meg at the moment due to the fallout from DoC - certainly the last three Dredd stories in the prog have all been tied to it, so any new reader jumping on board right now is going to wonder what's going on.

America, Origins, Tour of Duty (Backslash & Mega City Justice) and Day of Chaos (Fourth faction & End game) can't be recommended enough  :)

Also. IDW will also start publishing a re-coloured Bloc Mania and Apocalypse War (The events that lead into DoC.) in July. I'm really thrilled for that one, especially if this one http://www.comixology.com/Judge-Dredd-FCBD-Special/digital-comic/DIG004604 (http://www.comixology.com/Judge-Dredd-FCBD-Special/digital-comic/DIG004604) is an indication of the quality of it.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Mabs 11 June, 2013, 11:46:02 AM
I've been really busy the past few weeks and haven't had time to comment on the last few Progs. Hopefully I'll rectify that, but i'll start with my most recent read.

The black and white cover for this Prog (by D'Israeli) is okay but not exactly to my liking if i'm honest. Which is a shame as his covers last year for Dirty Frank were some of the best. Is it the lack of colour? It could be. It's not as eye catching as the preceding Progs.

Judge Dredd - The Forsaken Part Six

The conclusion to Mike Carroll's six parter is well done. I haven't entirely taken to this new story but it wasn't without its moments, especially where the flashback scenes were concerned. It helped to bring the young Cadets' traumatic story to life. The last panel was very poignant, showing a picture of the Cadets in more happier times. The artwork throughout the run by P.J Holden was superb, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Cadet Anderson - One In Ten Part Three

I was really looking forward to the start of this new strip, but after the opening, my interest in it has started to wane a bit. Having said that the last page was a hoot, not to mention a little unsettling. Carlos Ezquerra's artwork is great as always. I hope the story picks up in the next Prog.

Sinister Dexter - Witless Protection Part Four

Wow are we really up to part four right now? I really wouldn't have noticed because I'm really enjoying this strip. It's cracking along at a nice pace and John Burns' artwork is beautifully rendered. Almost in dreamy noir like fashion. The strip reminds me of all the great crime and film noir movies of the past, no doubt by the setting and whole feel of the world. The fact we do not see any indication to show we are on another planet, adds to the mystery in my view. When I read the opening two episodes I was thinking I had seen this sort of world somewhere before, where everything is at once recognisable and yet alien at the same time. I figured it out later on that it was Alex Proyas' Dark City which this strip had evoked in me. Although I have to say Dark City is a bit more, well darker than here, but the fascination for me is still the same. Maybe later on in the strip we can have something happen to indicate we are on another planet, I think that would be a nice touch. But other than that, I really enjoyed this weeks episode, although Sinister's persuasive heart melting plea to Frontal and his criminal chums was too straight forward for my liking. It would've been more interesting if a blood bath had ensued...or maybe not! But great stuff nonetheless.

Stickleback - Number of the Beast Part Twelve

So we come to the end of Stickleback...for now. And a nice double length conclusion too leaving the door open for more nefarious shenanigans from the pope of crime, although this series it felt he was less a pope and more a puppet with other powers more greater than our protagonist, controlling things. It was a fun episode though, with some nice moments. Boy am I glad to see Bob back though, I was quite fond of him in the first two series, along with other members of Stickleback's original crew. Another refreshing aspect of this series was seeing Scarlett getting more screen, or should that be - panel time. This new series did try my patience at times, there was a moment I think 2/3 of the way through where I started losing interest. But it was the meeting of the Rat Queen in the bowels of London, which got me back on track. I feel it would read much better in one long reading, than in instalments. And I must say the last page was outstanding. Great stuff indeed, I hope to see D'Israeli back soon, and maybe tackling a different story this time. Same goes for Ian Edginton, Brass Sun cannot come earlier for me! I see some exciting stuff coming our way in the foreseeable future.

So overall, an enjoyable Prog. Stickleback and Sinister Dexter being the standout for me.

4/5
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 11 June, 2013, 04:15:19 PM
Haven't had a chance to set out my thoughts on 1835 yet, 'cos I've alot of them:

Cover:  Stonking, but a bit similar to the 1829.  Not that I mind, that was lovely too.

Dredd:  I know I'm a bad squaxx, but despite this story's many strengths and sustained atmosphere, I didn't really get along with it, and the conclusion didn't help.

ART: PJ's artwork was superb throughout, keeping each cadet visually distinctive, coming up with a new and scary goblin-market version of the Troggies and the Undercity, and maintaining a dense claustrophobic vision of a city burning and falling apart that has few peers.  His craggy Dredd was excellent value as ever.  Interestingly, this week's episode set in the open and snowy Uranium City appropriately conveyed a wholly different feel, and I confess that I preferred what Blythe's lighter more restrained pallette does to PJ's inks to the darker look employed on earlier episodes, even though the latter was effective.

Also, either PJ takes requests for free, or I need to check if my receding hairline has exposed a hitherto unsuspected eagle mark.  Here's a younger thinner me commenting on Part 1:

While I love PJ's action-packed art here, I still don't like the bland beardy design for Dolman - he looks like he needs an eye-patch, or at the very least an Arctic Explorer parka

 :o

STORY: Mike's Joe Dredd was pitch-perfect as usual, that hardest of tricks clearly mastered.  I thought the device of cadet-an-episode was good, and the exploration of the effect of the disaster on a reasonable disparate group was well handled.  The grimness of DoC's aftermath was as well-conveyed as anyone so far has managed, tieing with Rennie & Beeby's Hamida story.  However, that's probably where my positive comments end, so those of a sensitive disposition may want to look away now.

Some of my complaints are nerdishly nitpicky, and reflect poorly on me, dealing as they do with the story's chronology, and the nature of Chaos Day:
 
The cadets are sent out to Sector 53 on Chaos Day/Election Day itself.  The Academy was attacked and destroyed in the first few minutes of Chaos Day (Chaos Day, Part 1), so presumably this was immediately after a midnight departure, but if so maybe such a huge event/narrow escape should have been referred to?  Or to be fair, these are older cadets, maybe they had already been dispersed to undermanned posts, which would fit with an overwhelmed Judge force as described in 'Eve of Destruction'.  But after the Academy's destruction would Dredd have risked and then abandoned these 'precious commodities', 9 of only 600 survivors that represent the Department's future?

'On the streets at least, Chaos Day is turning out to be surprisingly unchaotic' (Chaos Day, Part 2).  Much of what 'The Forsaken' describes seems to be more in keeping with the events running up to Election Day, rather than Chaos Day and its aftermath.  In the original story, the streets were largely deserted, the horror confined to the Blocks as the virus takes hold, the population driven indoors, with only a handful of rioters and refugees amongst the corpses. Dredd and Beeny's nightmare slog through block after block  takes place in the early part of the  timeframe of 'The Forsaken', but paints a very different picture.

The riots were a (partly stage-managed by subversive groups) reaction to the belief the Judges were indiscriminately killing the population, a fear that must be ingrained in a citizenry that survived Cal's reign and Necropolis, where the (brainwashed) Judges did exactly this. This breakdown in trust is what allows the virus to spread, the breaking of curfew and the rioting are the means to this end - the 'Chaos riots' precede the Day of Chaos,  and even Total War, Rage Against the Megs and Tox-9 have largely made their final plays by then. 

By the time the cadets are sent out, it's the virus and the infected that constitute the threat, not rioters themselves. Despite this, the cadets are sent out without any obvious biohazard protection at all, and don't seem concerned.  In this context the 'futsie' Judge Struthers encountered back in Part 3 was surely more likely to have been a virus victim, bloodshot eyes and all, a diagnosis that no-one seems to have thought of, and Tanuma doesn't seem worried about infection afterwards. 
Basically, I feel that the story misrepresents the sequence of events, and the nature of the threat, which is unfortunate in a story that so explicitly deals with this setup. 

I already moaned in a previous thread about how unlikely it was that Dolman's resignation in 2126 could have influenced policy re: not telling Paris about her origins after her 'birth' at apparent-age 5 in 2122, so I'll leave the chronological whining there, except to note that the poor thing appears to be pregnant at 12. 

My second problem with the story is perhaps more serious than this fanboy thread-tugging.  The story is 6 parts long, a goodly length for a Dredd tale, and yet has no real conclusion and no real information about Ms. McGuffin (McDredd?) herself: instead we get some technofudge about not-really-a-clone-actually and now as a second less-obvious twist, the prospect of Dredd's... (second?) great-nephew-or-niece? 

I've tried to learn something about Paris and her character by re-reading the whole thing, but all I see is someone restating the party line, and then going along with arch-knob baby-papa Falcon anyway.  What were Justice Dept playing at cloning Dredd (again) and then changing the sequence in such a drastic way?  What was the point?  If you wanted a great female judge with (better yet) no history of going of the rails, then why not clone Hershey, or Dekker or Garcia?  Wouldn't they already have had Nimrod as cautionary example of mucking about with the Fargo bloodline?  We don't find out. We don't find out what happens to Falcon, and we don't find out anything much about Paris as an experiment or as a person.  All still to be resolved for sure, but wouldn't it have been better to do this in the story itself?  At 36 pages it seems like there was room to do so, but the necessity of concealing the double-twist until the end prevented it, and defering resolution to a later date frustrates and diminishes.

Worse, we never find out what Dredd himself is actually doing in this strip, when it's really Dolman's show - except that Dolman himself doesn't really do much more than be Mr. Sensitive, which used to be Rico II's job.  As a result, the two-headed family-tree road-trip makes one think all these Dredd clones are pretty redundant in the first place.  If Dredd's purpose was recovering lost cadets, then why this bullying nonsense of threatening to send children to Titan?

I'm left with the feeling that setting up Fargo: Generation 4(?) was the ultimate point of all this, but that's yet another dangling thread that surely can't deliver for many years yet.  Which all leaves me unsatisfied with what we did get. 

Apologies for being so harsh chaps, if you care at all about whiny fanboy entitlement (and why would you) take comfort from the fact that this story was complex and interesting enough that I've spent a lot of time thinking about it.  It certainly didn't elicit a fatal 'meh'.

Cadet Anderson: Meh.

Sinister Dexter:  Phew, I get to gush about something, rounding out the stereotype I've become.  Lovely, lovely stuff: great art, brilliant pun, a clever resolution to the stand-off, and a nice set-up for a road trip.  What will the rest of Generica look like?

Stickleback:  A quick glance at my icon and username will show that I'm far from a neutral observer when it comes to this strip, but even allowing for that bias I thought this double-helping was yummy.  Especially liked the overhead image of Stickleback and Bob surrounded by dinoi-warriors, beautiful stuff.  I didn't expect the Saurian sidekick, or the return of Inspector Bey, so that's two good surprises in what has been a pretty satisfying getting-the-gang-back-together caper.  Maybe the dinoserfs went down a little too easily, given their supposedly global scope, but it was a neat resolution and in character for Sticklaback himself.  Interesting to see the skellies of Gog and Magog again so soon after their compu-versions in Ampney Crucis, keen to see how Stickleback's son and the powers under London figure into that other story.

Cadet Anderson Reconsidered: Oh alright, I like Cass' shorts.  That's as constructive as I can manage.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Spikes 11 June, 2013, 07:35:45 PM
Another good 'n' solid prog.
Dredd come to a conclusion, and i have to say ive really enjoyed this current tale, and though i was maybe expecting a bigger ending - im happy to see how this tale develops in later progs.
Good stuff!
Cadet Anderson carries on in fine form. Like the previous young Anderson tale (or young Durham Red) iTs quite lightweight-ish, but its a solid enough read, and im liking it. And its got King Carlos on art duties. Thats always a big plus.
Thought Sin-Dex was slightly below par, this week. Even John's normally superb art was a bit off, but overall im digging this strip. And Stickleback ends this week with a 'to be continued'. Ive really enjoyed this strip, and im looking forward to more. Ill agree that sometimes the art is hard to follow, but that only means i get to re-read it and pore over it some more.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Eamonn Clarke 15 June, 2013, 02:49:07 PM
A bit late but:
http://eamonn1961.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/2000ad-prog-1835-medical-review.html
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 15 June, 2013, 06:49:41 PM
A bit late but:
http://eamonn1961.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/2000ad-prog-1835-medical-review.html

Interesting stuff, and thanks for the link to Orlok's review on ECBT2KAD, makes me feel like slightly less of a frothing loon (and slightly more like part of an angry mob).
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Steve Green 15 June, 2013, 07:07:10 PM
OK... leaving aside the technical practicalities of it being possible - this is future world tech where they're using cockroach DNA...

The main beef seems to be why would they bother?

Maybe Hershey or even Francisco era politics decided that it would be more humane to not deprive someone of a life outside of the Academy if they don't make the grade - relaxation of the regs seemed to be a likelihood even prior to DoC.

I don't have a problem with it being Dredd rather than a female judge, that was the story that was being told - who's to say there isn't a young Hershey or someone else out there?
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 15 June, 2013, 07:38:29 PM
The main beef seems to be why would they bother?

This would be my problem.  I'd reconciled myself to a female Dredd 'clone' after the first episode, and as you say, futurotech: this is the city that brought you Armon Gill and Nimrod after all.  I just don't get the point in this instance (and the dates suggest it was under Hershey, assuming accelerated growth to Age 5 in the Dredd model).  Or why there was no development of Paris herself as a character in this story: this is the first time we've been introduced to a Dredd family member without learning anything significant about them, and I'm including Randy in this.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Steve Green 15 June, 2013, 07:51:19 PM
I'd say it was more of a setup rather than answering all the questions - as to why they'd do it - who knows?

Maybe it was an attempt to see whether a female Dredd clone would offer something else? To see if the flawed bloodline is more noticeable in the male.

Out of the Bloodline - Fargo attempted suicide, Rico went bad, Kraken was corrupted, Nimrod was a failure, Dolman quit.

It's not a great track record.

or

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1945000/images/_1949073_mouse_ear300.jpg)
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 15 June, 2013, 08:21:07 PM
Out of the Bloodline - Fargo attempted suicide, Rico went bad, Kraken was corrupted, Nimrod was a failure, Dolman quit.

It's not a great track record.

You can look at it another way: never having been to the Academy Fargo doesn't count (or why are they bothering to clone him at all?), similarly Kraken is a product of a completely different environment, and arguably a hugely successful one, Nimrod is a product of tinkering with the DNA.  Of the four known unaltered clones who had Academy training, Dredd and Rico II are exemplary judges (despite the former's endless resignations), Dolman's resignation is a product of being a clone and unwillingness to embrace this fixed destiny, and the source of Rico I's corruption is as yet unknown, but from Joe's perspective at least seems to have been environmental. 

So environment seems to have been the important factor in determining whether a Fargo will go good or bad, and the only genetic tinkering done has been disastrous.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Steve Green 15 June, 2013, 08:37:23 PM
Just because it's been disastrous before doesn't stop scientists trying again repeatedly.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 15 June, 2013, 09:15:46 PM
Just because it's been disastrous before doesn't stop scientists trying again repeatedly.

Heh, touche!  It may not be what Mike intended me to take away, but my real objection to convoluted-not-Clone Paris is that as things stand she only exists to be a chase McGuffin and then be pregnant, and that disappoints me, given how interesting the other clones have been as representing facets/variations/alternatives to Dredd. I don't doubt that Mike has plans, but after 6 episodes I find myself making judgements about what we got, and not what we might get in the future.

: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Hawkmumbler 15 June, 2013, 09:23:44 PM
How long did it take to build Rico II, Dolman and Nimrod up as characters? Well beyond there introductory serial I seem to remember, and even then, different methods. Bit premature (sorry!) to make judgements of such nature surely?
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: Steve Green 15 June, 2013, 09:26:34 PM
I can see the argument that we didn't find out much about Paris in relation to the other cadets - but I don't have a problem with it being a setup story for something more substantial.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 15 June, 2013, 09:32:55 PM
How long did it take to build Rico II, Dolman and Nimrod up as characters? Well beyond there introductory serial I seem to remember, and even then, different methods. Bit premature (sorry!) to make judgements of such nature surely?

All were crisply defined (and in one case nuked and euthanased too) in their introductory stories. Rico I fits that model too, so perhaps its only Kraken that was wheeled on in a very vague manner - but that was a single episode.  However, I agree, it's a matter of personal taste, for which there's no accounting.  So I'll shut up. 

Now, about that mischaracterisation of Chaos Day.... I kid, I kid, I kid because I love.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: TordelBack 15 June, 2013, 09:34:21 PM
How long did it take to build Rico II, Dolman and Nimrod up as characters? Well beyond there introductory serial I seem to remember, and even then, different methods. Bit premature (sorry!) to make judgements of such nature surely?

All were crisply defined (and in one case nuked and euthanased too) in their introductory stories. Rico I fits that model too, so perhaps its only Kraken that was wheeled on in a very vague manner - but that was in a single episode. 

However, I agree with you both, it's a matter of personal taste, for which there's no accounting.  So I'll shut up. 

Now, about that mischaracterisation of Chaos Day.... I kid, I kid, I kid because I love.
: Re: Prog 1835: Backblast!
: a chosen rider 16 June, 2013, 02:29:10 AM
Just because it's been disastrous before doesn't stop scientists trying again repeatedly.

Heh, touche!  It may not be what Mike intended me to take away, but my real objection to convoluted-not-Clone Paris is that as things stand she only exists to be a chase McGuffin and then be pregnant, and that disappoints me, given how interesting the other clones have been as representing facets/variations/alternatives to Dredd. I don't doubt that Mike has plans, but after 6 episodes I find myself making judgements about what we got, and not what we might get in the future.

Yeah, I really do hope this is setup for something interesting coming soon, because honestly, it's a little bit unfortunate to have the very first thing a female version of Dredd does be to run away from her responsibilities and get knocked up.  :-\  I know there's precedent for Dredd clones going off the rails - and reproducing! - but as the first and so far only representation of "what Dredd would be like if he was a girl", the implications are really a tad dodgy.  Hopefully now that the twist reveal is out of the way there'll be a chance to show some more of her personality so we can see some of the family traits coming through.

Because really, a pregnant/mother character with Dredd's personality would be all kinds of fascinating.  :D  (I can't quite decide whether this would be in the "hyper-efficient overprotective parent" way or the "total emotional trainwreck" way, but either way, definitely fascinating.)