Doctor Who - The Angels Take Manhattan

[JamesC]

it'd be easier if the Doctor and his assistants just decided to stop traveling with each other - like what used to happen.

[IndigoPrime]

Seriously, is the Doctor allergic to non-Tardis forms of travel?

The abbreviation is the problem. One more scene, with the Doctor trying desperately to get into New York and Rory/Amy trying to get out, but all being blocked from doing so, could have sorted all this. A bit like when Rose got stuck (temporarily, as it turned out) in that other universe. That would also have added the emotional clout that Moff's scripts too often lack.

[JamesC]

Seriously, is the Doctor allergic to non-Tardis forms of travel?

A bit like when Rose got stuck (temporarily, as it turned out) in that other universe. That would also have added the emotional clout that Moff's scripts too often lack.

But that was emotional in the same way the that Diana grieving, wailing, floor-rollers were emotional: an unconvincing mawkish embarrassment.

[SmallBlueThing]

Was it? With Rose's 'departure' we got a definite (at the time, anyway) end to the story- if we went along with the storyteller's intentions, and why would we not, as we had been entertained for two years at that point with the show scarcely putting a foot wrong- although it was obvious the story was not over, it felt like it was because of the skill by which it was told. In short, dr who was a communal saturday night experience and still 'watercooler tv', which it hasnt been now for a while. The audience was played beautifully by a writer who can move people and a cast with appeal across generations and sexes. You can argue all you like that RTD became a lazy shyster after this, i wont disagree- but those first three years are tv gold, especially tennant's first two seasons. The audience cared about the dr and rose in a way they've not since about the show in any iteration. It's an abberation as far as the show goes- like when fans note the ratings for city of death without mentioning the itv strike (cont)

[Proudhuff]

That cellar scene reminded me of this:



I'm in agreement with SBT about the whole suicide thing, I thought that was badly handled especially given the complex rational behind it and the age of kids watching, suicide is a painless solution? I think not. 

[SmallBlueThing]

(cont) or the mccoy ratings without mentioning ken and deirdre. Arguably what came after this was more like 'proper' dr who, and moffatwho especially is niche and cult and celebrates this with timey wimey plots that trade off the early rtd-goodwill to ensure audiences dont switch off- but who under moffat has never been emotionally affecting at all.

SBT

[Proudhuff]

Bah! another filling in the SBT sandwish!!

[Professor Bear]

SBT: I think your beef with Moffat has skewed your ability to be objective.

[JamesC]

(cont) or the mccoy ratings without mentioning ken and deirdre. Arguably what came after this was more like 'proper' dr who, and moffatwho especially is niche and cult and celebrates this with timey wimey plots that trade off the early rtd-goodwill to ensure audiences dont switch off- but who under moffat has never been emotionally affecting at all.

SBT

The whole 'water-cooler TV' thing always seemed like propaganda to me. Certainly at my work place the only people who have ever watched Doctor Who are the same people who watch it still - those with a passing interest in Sci-Fi or those with kids. None of my family have ever watched it and it isn't easy to start a Dr Who conversation in mixed company at the pub without 70% of the group not knowing what you're talking about.
The BBC were surprised at the level of success Doctor Who achieved after it's return and there's a huge amount of affection for it and kids love it etc. In my own experience it has no more cross-over appeal than something like Merlin or Primeval.

As for Rose Tyler - in my experience people were fed up with her and her family.
It's also easy to mistake people's fondness for Billie Piper with their fondness for Rose Tyler.

[SmallBlueThing]

I have no 'beef' with moffat, other than all his characters sound the same, he really wants to write american sitcoms (notably 'friends') but no one will let him, and he really does not have a clue how real people act or talk. The last point i can let him have, as it's dr who and 'real people' have no place in it, but i will not forgive his blatant disregard of logic and celebrating of the fact by the invention of glib and lazy get-outs such as 'timey wimey'. I maintain that dr who has been unwatchable shit since he took over, with very few exceptions.

As far as 'beef' goes, I was in the room with the man a couple of times, back when he was just a fan himself. The one thing he is not, i think, is the persona he presents to the public in his columns in dwm. I also thought 'jekyll', 'chalk' and 'coupling' were awful, and much earlier i hated 'press gang'. The sooner he goes off to the states and writes some californian sitcom the better. I also dont see anything special in 'sherlock'.


SBT

[Jim_Campbell]

I have no 'beef' with moffat,

Except that you've said more than once that you can't stand the man and have ignored (charitably, missed) at least one post of mine that points out a fairly hefty Moffat/RTD double standard.

Don't get me wrong: not liking Moffat is a perfectly valid reason for not liking his output (I had some brief dealings with Shane Meadows before he became a well-respected independent film-maker and I still can't bring myself to watch one of his movies) just stop dressing it up as an objective qualitative criticism. You don't like the man, you don't like anything he writes. We get it!

Cheers

Jim

[Professor Bear]

My bad.  You don't have a beef, you just hate him and everything he does.

[Dandontdare]

I had no idea he did Coupling - which was brilliant - so he's already written Friends, just a British version! Press Gang was top too. (don't know jekyll or chalk)

blatant disregard of logic and celebrating of the fact by the invention of glib and lazy get-outs such as 'timey wimey'.

True enough, but RTD was even more guilty of this. He was even quite candid that he didn't care about logic or narrative consistency, he just wrote roller-coaster adventures, throwing things in whenever they'd be cool for da kidz, and not worrying whether it made any sense. I think Moffat's scripts are much more sensible and better thought out than RTD's were.

[SmallBlueThing]

Ive ignored it jim, because im really not interested in getting into an rtd vs moffat debate- rtd was by far the better writer, up to the time i have noted. You just have to look at his early output such as QAF. He was a far, far better writer. Dr who, however, seemed to break him somewhat, and post- 2007 his work is mostly of such lesser quality that you'll never find me defending him. I have no personal feelings toward moffat at all- other than a dislike when i was in the same room. That happens- im not very fond of nick briggs either. But my dislike of his work is entirely unrelated and based purely on the fact it's so soulless and flimsy that it makes me scream. Let me make this very clear: i dont much go for either moffat or rtd's dr who scripts or showrunning. But forced to make a choice, id take 'midnight' and 'gridlock' over anything moffat has done- especially awful tosh like last week's, wherein he rewrote the rules of his monsters again and gave the audience an ending that made no sense, again.

[M.I.K.]

To be fair, Jekyll was terrible.

True enough, but RTD was even more guilty of this. He was even quite candid that he didn't care about logic or narrative consistency, he just wrote roller-coaster adventures, throwing things in whenever they'd be cool for da kidz, and not worrying whether it made any sense. I think Moffat's scripts are much more sensible and better thought out than RTD's were.

...and Moffat didn't devise an 'adult' spin-off from the kids' show in which one of the character's was a lovable date-rapist, every character fancied/snogged/had sex with every other character, regardless of current relationship status, and the hero assisted in the suicide of someone transported from the past to the present, for no other (expletive deleted) reason than he was lonely and missed his friends and family, despite the fact the 'hero' was well aware that time travel was quite common and if the lonely bloke just hung around a bit, some other bloke in a blue box would probably turn up before too long and be able to take him back to his loved ones.

It's like making a sequel to Catweazle set in a brothel run by serial killers or something.