Prog 1812 Trifecta

[Dandontdare]

Still no prog. A strongly worded letter to Royal mail is on the cards, as Prog delivery day is just totally random these days.

[Mikey]

All this talk of Smiley's toilet time causing a stink is easily explained by employment of stealth tactics he must have developed.

He's head of 'Black Plops' Division.

M

[Colin YNWA]

I'll just leave this here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=42506

Don't forget folks if you get the chance pop over and leave a comment after Karl's brilliant interview. He's doing sterling working over at CBR pushing 2000ad and we need to be backing him up and leaving comments, as this is apparently how they judge the worth of an article in terms of popularity and therefore the value of running more of the same. 

[Colin YNWA]

although it is deeply gratifying to me that those who rave about this can now no longer make fun of Marvel or DC crossover events without coming off as snobs and/or hypocrites.

The hell we can't.  The only inter-title superhero crossover in the last twenty years that's been worth a toss was DC One Million, and even there, more than a third of its crossover issues were utterly unnecessary, and the collected edition omitted the setup for the damn twist ending by leaving out the "Chronos" issue.  This made as much sense as an eventual "Cold Deck" collection leaving out "Bullet to King Four."...

Yeah what absolute nonsense (the original point not Grant's response which was spot on in the main). I'm not either for or against big cross-overs, some I enjoy, so I don't. The point being that this has been done in an entirely different way to the US one's generally are. It was self contained, it was all in one comic, it was done for genuine story reasons.

Often an American comic cross-over seems to have a fine central premise, BUT from then writers are asked if they can use that in their regular books, or what story ideas they can come up with for the characters they have charge over that would add to the central idea, to expand upon it. Some of those ideas will be good and work, some won't. All dilute the central story and often leave the plot so bloated that the central title cross-over series (so say Blackest Knight or Secret Wars II) having to touch so many points covered elsewhere as to lose a lot of its purpose and become a summary of other things happening, rather than being able to concentrate on the story it was originally meant to tell.

Trifecta (is that what we're meant to be calling the whole of this story?) has been focused and told a single story, from three perspectives and stayed very tight and lean. To find difference between that and the large American cross-overs and therefore make a judgement based on those differences does not make someone either a 'snob / hypocrite', just a person able to read, evaluate and judge the specifics of this case in contrast to the others.

Grant's mistake of course is no realising that Final Crisis is the greatest of the recent cross-overs and that Avengers vs. Defenders is a bit poo. I'll forgive him that though.

[Krakajac]

"Personally I think this would be a bad idea to replace Dredd with Giant."

Agreed.  Ewing is a fantastic writer and heir-to-the-throne in my book, but I wouldn't want to see Judge Giant become the focus - week after week in 2000AD.  Giant's a solid 'human' character, with a nice back-story, but ultimately, he's not that much different than the other supporting characters that have surrounded Dredd over the years - including the original Judge Giant. 

Half the fun with Dredd (and by extension, clones like Rico) is not knowing what they're thinking about.  To me, Dredd (and the way his mind works) is still a mystery after 35 years.  When he does 'open up' (like he did in Day of Chaos), it makes it all the more special.

I see Rico as the perfect replacement for Dredd - and I hope 2000AD go down this path.  I love the way that Wagner has fleshed out Rico over the years - it's been quite subtle at times.  He has the same work ethic as Dredd, but seems just a bit more 'laid back' - one could say even 'cheerful' at times.  He even displays a willingness to keep in touch with Vienna, etc. which is a nice touch.  If Rico was to take on Dredds' mantle down the track, it would be interesting to see if he kept this slightly 'positive' disposition - or slowly transformed into 'ol Stony face' over time.

The other thing you have with 'Dredd' clones is the spectre of them 'going bad' in the same way Kraken did, etc.  You don't really have that with Giant.

Getting back to Prog 1812 - an outstanding read.  A bonkers story plot-wise, but dramatic, thrilling and funny all in one hit.

[Andy Smart]

I haven't read a crossover since Mark Millar's Civil War and I bowed out after Black Goliath was killed by Thor's robot clone. I haven't bought an issue of a Marvel comic since and reading commentary on Avengers vs X-Men completely validates that decision.

One of the big factors separating this story from that sort of crossover is the secrecy. You wouldn't get that in a Marvel crossover since the whole point of them is as a marketing gimmick.

[Richmond Clements]

All this talk of Smiley's toilet time causing a stink is easily explained by employment of stealth tactics he must have developed.

He's head of 'Black Plops' Division.

M

Jesus...

[Greg M.]

"Personally I think this would be a bad idea to replace Dredd with Giant."

Agreed.  Ewing is a fantastic writer and heir-to-the-throne in my book, but I wouldn't want to see Judge Giant become the focus - week after week in 2000AD.  Giant's a solid 'human' character, with a nice back-story, but ultimately, he's not that much different than the other supporting characters that have surrounded Dredd over the years - including the original Judge Giant. 

I personally think Giant is very different from the rest of Dredd's supporting cast, but I am completely biased – since he first appeared, he swiftly became my favourite character in the series. What's interesting about Giant is that we've followed him through pretty much his entire life and seen him change from an angry, vengeful youth, into someone who, under Dredd's guidance, becomes the prodigy of the Justice Department. Rico might carry Dredd's genetic legacy, but to me, Giant is Dredd's true successor, because he's the one who Dredd shaped, turned away from a very negative path and moulded into potentially the finest judge in MC-1. (He may not have been portrayed that way for a while, I dunno, but that's very much the direction he was headed in.) In an era when we've seen Dredd realise how futile so much of what he's done for the city has been, Judge Giant is one of his greatest successes.

As for Rico,  - he's already been 'young Stony Face' – in his earliest appearances, he was portrayed as an uptight, letter-of-the-law, by-the-book type who contrasted with the older, more human Dredd - was possibly even more obnoxious than young Dredd. The idea of Rico as the 'cheerful' one is something I've never quite got my head around, mostly because the character development happened when I wasn't reading the prog.

[sheldipez]

Read this last night in bed (as per the norm) giggling like a school girl for pretty much every single one of Frank's lines. I think we all know who really should take over Dredd.... 

[Krakajac]

"The idea of Rico as the 'cheerful' one is something I've never quite got my head around"

My bad.  It was the only description I could come up with at the time - probably not quite what I was aiming for. 

To me, Rico seems comfortable with the fact that he's living in his 'own' shadow and can't possibly compete with Dredd - at least for the time being.  I don't know - I've always found the 'Rico' stories very compelling for this reason.

Saying that, I've got no problem with an on-going 'Judge Giant' strip - as long as that's what it's called.  I'm not a fan of the 'Taggart' option.  Dredd's legacy should be his and his only.  If the art/story-telling on a 'Giant' series is above par - it shouldn't need the 'Judge Dredd' moniker to be successful.

[Frank]

"Personally I think this would be a bad idea to replace Dredd with Giant." The other thing you have with 'Dredd' clones is the spectre of them 'going bad' in the same way Kraken did, etc.  You don't really have that with Giant.

Any series in which the dramatic lead was shared between characters would still have Rico, Dolman and the dramatic possibilities they entail. In a strip which didn't have Rico (or any other character) as its sole narrative focus there would actually be some dramatic tension as to whether said characters were going the way of Rico, or whether they were going to be killed. Reaction to Dredd's mortal wounding last week illustrates that the readership's split between "gosh, they're going to kill Dredd!" and "they'll never kill Dredd" whenever these situations arise.

Using different characters as the narrative focus would also allow different kinds of stories to be told, without trying to shoehorn the brilliantly rigid Dredd into every narrative. Using Rob Williams as an example; his recent Asleep story (1804-5) read well enough, without ever feeling like it needed Dredd at the centre of it. Imagine if Williams had tried to write the fun and imaginative Saudade as a Dredd story - I think it would have lost a lot of its charm without the freedom Williams enjoys with Frank's character, and shoehorning Dredd into that story would probably have made it read more like Condo (319-321).

Beeny, Rico, Dolman, Maitland, Logan, Roffman, Giant (and whoever else turns out to have survived Chaos Day) are pliable enough to offer the opportunity for writers and artists to tell the kind of stories which best fit their strengths within the body of the central MC1 strip, which becomes a kind of anthology strip within an anthology title. That's how I understood Ewing's comments regarding both Giant and Taggart; if the big epics need a strong central figure to give them a through-line and to provide the strip with the sense of an ongoing narrative , he fits the bill, but he doesn't dominate things and restrict the tone of stories in the way a baby Dredd might.

[Proudhuff]

Just noticed a nice bit of [spoiler]boot knife action[/spoiler] from Dredd on page six. Down, but never out.

That made me smile, no song no dance not even BOOT KNIFE!

[NapalmKev]

Amazing ending to an absolutely quality storyline(s)!

Cheers

[Professor Bear]

although it is deeply gratifying to me that those who rave about this can now no longer make fun of Marvel or DC crossover events without coming off as snobs and/or hypocrites.

The hell we can't.  The only inter-title superhero crossover in the last twenty years that's been worth a toss was DC One Million, and even there, more than a third of its crossover issues were utterly unnecessary, and the collected edition omitted the setup for the damn twist ending by leaving out the "Chronos" issue.  This made as much sense as an eventual "Cold Deck" collection leaving out "Bullet to King Four."...

Yeah what absolute nonsense (the original point not Grant's response which was spot on in the main). I'm not either for or against big cross-overs, some I enjoy, so I don't. The point being that this has been done in an entirely different way to the US one's generally are. It was self contained, it was all in one comic, it was done for genuine story reasons.

The snobbery and hypocrisy of these statements sicken me.

[Molch-R]

although it is deeply gratifying to me that those who rave about this can now no longer make fun of Marvel or DC crossover events without coming off as snobs and/or hypocrites.

The hell we can't.  The only inter-title superhero crossover in the last twenty years that's been worth a toss was DC One Million, and even there, more than a third of its crossover issues were utterly unnecessary, and the collected edition omitted the setup for the damn twist ending by leaving out the "Chronos" issue.  This made as much sense as an eventual "Cold Deck" collection leaving out "Bullet to King Four."...

Yeah what absolute nonsense (the original point not Grant's response which was spot on in the main). I'm not either for or against big cross-overs, some I enjoy, so I don't. The point being that this has been done in an entirely different way to the US one's generally are. It was self contained, it was all in one comic, it was done for genuine story reasons.

The snobbery and hypocrisy of these statements sicken me.

And this particular conversation is getting out of hand. It ends now, thank you.