London Riots

[Michaelvk]

Ye heard about the rapid sentencing too? Two blokes already sentenced to 10 and 16 weeks in prison? It is getting very Dredd indeed!

We had that down here for the world cup (which was excellent, by the way..). They set up portacabin mobile courts so when someone got nicked they got sentenced almost immediately and carted off the streets so they wouldn't bother the masses of incoming tourists. People were begging to keep them after the world cup, they worked that well..

[flintlockjaw]

[COMMANDO FORCES]

Okay everyone, lets not all fall out over this, remember, we are not doing the looting!

Having gone through some of the posts, I thought I would add a few bits to a few that take my fancy. I'm not going to say who they are from but just answer or add to it.

Apparently the national average wage for the UK is £24,000 a year. That puts me, and I would guess a lot of other folks here, firmly on the side of poverty.

That figure is near enough what I heard and as with everything in life there is a dividing line. The children who are in the year below because they happened to be born a day later than someone else. That one mark less in an exam that means you failed. There has to be a line somewhere for statistics and before everyone shouts, I'm not saying unlucky to all those people earning less. There has to be a number for the statistics or no-one would know what was going on and so there would be nothing to build on or aim at!

national service

The military don't want this. Would you want somebody in your company who doesn't want to do the job and can't be arsed. In most jobs I doubt you would die because of this but the military is one when teamwork is the main thing in the heat of battle. Will this person be prepared put everything on the line!

If you want something for the youth to do, then make them productive in their community and for a fair wage. We used to do MACC Tasks (Military Aid to the Civillian Community) all over this country. This included bridge building, path building, building repairs, etc..
This would build up a community spirit and show that you are prepared to graft and this in turn would show employers that they would benefit from someone like you. Just look at the cubs, girl guides, scouts, boys brigade, adventure scouts, etc... sadly many people think these are a joke but they can be a vital step for young people in the step towards adulthood.

materially, the state will put a roof over your head and give you enough to pay your bills.  Probably as much as the guy next door who actually works - maybe more if youre wiling to put some effort into it.

Sadly this is true. I wonder what the people in society must think when they are doing a job that they probably hate all day for their wage and they see the scrounger next door taking the piss and living it up. Before we all go mad about John using the scrounger word, just remember the Hell my family went through with 2 years of shit from two of these types of families living next door.
Also you may say, why don't these people who are doing a shit job go and get a better one. There could be many reasons behind this, qualifications, travel costs, the hours suit their needs, etc... I suppose I could put that question to the people who are not prepared to work because certain jobs are beneath them!

That said some social study evidence from Scandanavia did show that a more equal societies are happier ones, less inclined towards angry displays or social alienation. The Rich here pay far less Tax than the middle Tier of Society, earn many times more than the average worker on £24,000 and are seen as societies 'winners' while the very poor have hardly seen their prospects rise at all and are stuck in the Rut with little to improve their lot in life. State Benefits can pay more than working in Low paid jobs so it's easy to become indolent or 'cheat the system' that you feel cheated you. The system allows CEO's/Celebrities/Footballers to get away with millions while you struggle just getting by. Social resentment is almost inevitable. We've all scoffed with incredulity as another Banker of a failed Bank gives himself a pay rise

Scandanavian countries, you need to do a google search to see what sort of taxes some of these countries pay. I'm sure that would go down well in most households here. I'm quite prepared to pay high taxes for free sports centres, free public transport, free water, etc... but I'm sure many people would not be so happy with that!
People keep going on about the wage and if you are below this magic number then your life is crap. What do people want, that's correct, they want everything and they want it now. They worship the very people that they moan about, football is a joke. They moan about the prices of the game, the shirts, the wages but they still watch it. Make a stand and I bet those wages would soon come down as the bubble bursts.
Another group worships celebrity and they want the same fame as well.

The evil bankers, lets think about this, successive governments have let them get away with blue murder. I think its a FUCKING (sorry Richard Richmod for the naughty word  ) disgrace but what are we going to do about it. We could all take our money out of every bank and oput it into an ethical one for a start but you still need those gits at the top playing the stocks and shares. The government could have a Mexican standoff as they try to hammer the banks and then watch them leave the country and then we can all expect a very high tax rise.
This is the most difficult game to play as far as I see it. How far can you push them before the City sods off. I'm sick of hearing the mantra, you need to pay the best wage for the best people. I presume these are the same people who crashed the world. I won't go on about that any more as it truly winds me up!

I hope they don't call in the Army and you feel how the Soldiers who frequent the forums reacted with some of the strongest opinions. Trained to Defend or seize territory by physical Force they see these Gangs as an enemy to be treated with the sternest measures possible. Good on yah Lads but I'm afraid this is a Social problem caused by resentment and then exploited by an unruly minority

So the military bods think that these gangs are the 'enemy'. Now that shows you know nothing about the military and what many in the military have done. It's not all about killing you know, hardly anyone in the forces has killed someone and its not an easy thing to live with if you have! I'm sure you have read articles about PTSD, these squaddies are the same as you, civillians first.
We have opinions just as vocal as everyone else on the forum, it doesn't mean we want to charge into the 'enemy'. The last person who wants to go to war is the squaddie, I don't know if you know this but war is shit and horrible things happen. I'm saying these bits, as I feel extremely offended that you would even start down the squaddie and sternest measures possible route. Have a look at recent history and what squaddies had to stand by and watch happen in places like Bosnia and the like because we have been told not to attack the forces who are killing innocents. That takes a lot out of a person, I can tell you!
As with every job you get bad eggs and so I will admit some squaddies have done some terrible things but I'm sure some writers and artists have probaly done bad things as well.

It's not just Tory-like policies but this general slipping of morals.

Spot on!

There is no way it can be said that a child born in somewhere like Brixton, or in a former mining village in Wales to two unemployed parents has the same chances as someone like David Cameron or George Osbourne

You can't compare extremes otherwise I would mention that lad from London who done good and compare him to a drug addled rich kid who has everything going for him and who just so happens to die in an overdose. By the way, that lad is Lord Sugar!
Life is not about being equal, sadly. Communism is brilliant for those who lived in the Kremlin and just look at the state Cuba is in. Every so often I hear a few reports during the night on Radio 5 that they are laying loads off in their public service. Here's a quote for all you who think Cuba is the best way to live, its from TIME WORLD (TIME MAGAZINE)!

Cuba's communist government, via its official labor union, announced on Monday. "Our state cannot and should not continue maintaining enterprises with inflated payrolls, losses that pull down our economy and make us counterproductive, generate bad habits and distort worker behavior," said a statement by the Cuban Workers' Central (CTC), making it known that some 500,000 government jobs will be eliminated by next spring. It also suggested something fairly anathema to socialism's collectivist dogma: how the unemployed find their way after the mass dismissal "depends in large part on the private management and initiative of the individual."

Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others. If you care that much about equality buY ethical sourced food and clothes and pay those prices, as we all know how many of our goods are produced. That's right people in other countries having a great time in sweat shops!

I won't bother doing any more quotes but I remember one mentioning stop and searches and if we have had them done. I've been stopped many a time driving my car around and had all the checks done, it may not be the same but then again Maidstone is not full of gangs and drugs. I suppose we could get the cops to do those searches in country villages, just in case there are any knifes found there.
There is a reason that the big cities have these searches happening all the time and if they ever stop, what will you say when the next kid is knifed and dies. That's right, its the police's fault for not stopping it. They really can't win.
Before you jump in, I take you to my bit about the squaddies, there are bad eggs in all walks of society. Harold Shipman was a doctor, so that would mean all doctors are evil.

That's it with that.


How would I mend society. It's sadly quite simple, raise taxes (I did do this in a thread a long time ago) and make the following free. Hospital treatment and everything to do with care in our society. Youthclubs, skateboard parks, swimming pools, leisure centres, etc. All public tranport (except planes, obviously). Things like this would mean people would be fitter, spend less getting around as you've already paid for it, etc..
Work wise, apprenticeships would be a start for many and lots of them (the idea of everyone going to university was always a joke, people can still go to university for those other trained jobs) as the country is crying out for skilled people. All jobs to have a decent wage to make everyones standard of living one of the best in the world. All jobs to be valued, even the jobs that everyone thinks they wouldn't want to do have to have a decent wage.

You do know this would never work, why? Its simple, there will always be certain people who don't want to be part of society and no matter how great you make it, they will try to ruin it.

Remember, I'm not having a go at anyone, just putting my evil ex-squaddie ideas across before I arm myself up and kill everyone who is antisocial 

My final bit on this sad subject is this. Did you all see the Evening Standard's front page last night and the news. I did and it seems that quite a few of these poor people who just happened to be rioting seemed to have jobs

[radiator]

[IAMTHESYSTEM]

I hope they don't call in the Army and you feel how the Soldiers who frequent the forums reacted with some of the strongest opinions. Trained to Defend or seize territory by physical Force they see these Gangs as an enemy to be treated with the sternest measures possible. Good on yah Lads but I'm afraid this is a Social problem caused by resentment and then exploited by an unruly minority

So the military bods think that these gangs are the 'enemy'. Now that shows you know nothing about the military and what many in the military have done. It's not all about killing you know, hardly anyone in the forces has killed someone and its not an easy thing to live with if you have! I'm sure you have read articles about PTSD, these squaddies are the same as you, civillians first.
We have opinions just as vocal as everyone else on the forum, it doesn't mean we want to charge into the 'enemy'. The last person who wants to go to war is the squaddie, I don't know if you know this but war is shit and horrible things happen. I'm saying these bits, as I feel extremely offended that you would even start down the squaddie and sternest measures possible route. Have a look at recent history and what squaddies had to stand by and watch happen in places like Bosnia and the like because we have been told not to attack the forces who are killing innocents. That takes a lot out of a person, I can tell you!
As with every job you get bad eggs and so I will admit some squaddies have done some terrible things but I'm sure some writers and artists have probaly done bad things as well.

Unusually both my Grandfather and Father fought in the Wars WW1 and WW2 respectivley so I know all to well about the terrible toll it took on them.  They killed and saw their friends killed, whole groups of Men wiped out or in my Fathers case burned alive in heavy Bombers. He was an insomniac and a heavy smoker due to the stress of the Air War though a better Father I could not have wished for. 

I merely expressed the opinion that your comments and others were robust. I was not having a go at the Military or demanding they attack these street hooligans indeed I mention later that the Army would hopefully NOT be sent in.

I think that raising Taxes should be considered but that is unsellable to the electorate. The Liberal  Democrats have been saying this for years and I don't recall it doing them any favours at the ballot box. I think 40% tax rate is pretty much  all you could expect without resentment coming into it. Most people would say if they raised the Tax threshold further they'd be working hard to to keep the Goverment in Luxury since the recent scandals over Parliamentary expenses, some Military over spend and various other State agencies claiming nights out and Judo suits to the Public purse hardly shows the Goverment as 'cutting back' on expenditure.

There's been some angry exchanges over this I think the threat of this has triggered some territorial responses in us all. But we're only human so what else can you do?

[Misanthrope]

Why don't they invest the money that this cunt and his cronies steals from the tax payers ( under the guise of 'expenses' ) and give it to more worthwhile causes?

[SuperSurfer]

Good post CF.

As you mentioned the media, I find it rather interesting looking at the coverage in some of the newspapers. I have looked at some from different ends of the political spectrum. What struck me is that some have seemed to concentrate on property damage and theft from shops while others seem to report more on the terrifying ordeals people went through, such as the robberies, women in restaurants forced to hand over their wedding rings to armed thugs or people running screaming with their children out of buses etc. I think that sense of the utter fear is not reported in some of the media.

Yes, we are all trying to make sense of recent events. It's just a shame that people have to resort to abuse at the drop of a hat. Apt that this is in a section of the website called 'Community'.

[Matt Timson]

Totally agree with you about the army- I don't know anyone who's ever been in the army that doesn't think a return to National Service is a terrible idea.

I'm sure I've banged on about Sweden before though. Yes, they have higher taxes- but those taxes go hand in hand with a far higher standard of living. People are actively encouraged to do better by having a vested interest in society.

Best example I can think of is that when you manage a shop, you don't just get to cash up for an extra pound an hour- you run the shop like it was your own business. You have a budget for the year, can hire and fire and get a a slice of the profits. In short, you have every incentive to do the very best that you can, rather than simply turning up and killing time for minimum wage.

Fancy getting some extra edjumacation? Take the year off- your job will be waiting for you when you return. Need childcare so that you can work? It's free! Lost your job? Well, it happens- here's a proper, liveable wage- on the state- while we help you to find a new job or retrain.

It's not a perfect system, that's for sure- but the streets are clean and safe, and drunken thuggery is a rarity.

All that said, I am well aware of the fact that a lot of that would be abused in this country and I don't pretend to have the answers for a way around it- but I'd gladly pay higher taxes to live in a society more like Sweden. I'd consider it money well spent.

[Matt Timson]

That was to Commando Forces, btw.

Stupid tapatalk...

[Goaty]

[JayzusB.Christ]

I noticed the similarities in the paper alright. 
Glad to see the heavy-handed approach seems to have quietened things down a bit.  Now is the time to start examining the causes of the riots and making sure it doesn't happen again, but not before sentencing as many of the opportunistic thieves, vandals and (in a few cases) murderers involved as possible, for cynically taking advantage of a legitimate protest and making life impossible for ordinary working people.  Not to mention innocent unemployed people, come to that.

[Mudcrab]

Thankfully its still quiet up here in the CAL-HAB Zone....I just pray it doesnt happen here, or we may have to release Middenface McNulty to give them rioters/savages/scumbags the old Glesga Kiss....

Ya think?


Scottish youths arrested over Facebook 'riot' messages
Two teenagers have been arrested after messages were posted on Facebook allegedly inciting others to commit acts of disorder.

What I meant was that there is no physical rioting as yet in CAL-HAB...( we keep it for the old firm matches)

Rioting in Aberdeen!
http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/Article.aspx/2389795

Bugger all on the BBC about it, I think they're making it up personally 

[JamesC]

I've steared clear of this thread for a while, but for what it's worth here's my 2p.

These riots are not born out of any political motive other than getting free stuff, and kicking off at the police and government for a laugh.

My background is that I grew up in Great Yarmouth - which is, and has for a long time, been classed as a deprived area. When I was at school it had the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the country.
I'm the youngest of three and know all about wearing hand-me-down clothes and not having much money.(I also lived in Luton for a while and we all know what a state that's in).

Now my point is that Great Yarnouth doesn't need to be in the state it is in. It is in a downward spiral that is the fault of the residents in many cases.

For example, there is no need for so many to be unemployed in Yarmouth in the middle of the summer season. The holiday camps have to get people in from other towns, and put them up in caravans, to work the bars , catering outlets, swimming pools, shops, maintenance shifts etc. It costs the camp money to put these people up but there simply aren't enough locals prepared to do the work.


I have a nephew, who has rather depressingly just become a father, who is 21 and hasn't done a day's work in his life. He's a lazy little bastard. A friend once got him work at a signwriters which was a pretty good opportunity for someone who had flunked school - it was an opportunity to learn a trade. He walked out on the second day because they asked him to do some sweeping in the wokshop.
He has an absolute lack of respect for anyone, is totally selfish and thinks the world owes him a living. His friends are all the same.
I believe one of the main reasons for this is that his mum (my sister who has been on benefits most of her life) always gave him everything he wanted. I think this was partly a guilt thing - she didn't  want him to go without. He would get a mobile phone almost every birthday or xmas (usually a good one costing £100 +) and within a month he'd have sold it or 'lost' it and spent the money in the arcades or, later on, pissing it up.
The thing is I can understand why he doesn't want to work. For a start his mum never has. The main reason though, is because he has surrounded himself (and it has a great deal to do with the friends you choose) with people who, like him, have such narrow horizons that they simply see no reason to work.
All he needs is somewhere to live, enough money for crap ready meals, and an internet connection and second hand computer that he can use to download free movies. Every so often they'll have a piss up on cheap cider.
If these are your aspirations, why work?

My brother, on the other hand who was always a bit 'square' and was naturally very academic as a child ended up going to Cambridge University! He now lives with his family in Singapore. It's his lifestyle that broadened my horizons enough to make me want to work and to surround myself with better people.
I still know loads of people my age (34) from school who have never worked. These people trot out phrases about immigrants (to be fair Yarmouth has had problems with immigration) or about there being no jobs in a parrot fashion type way. They have fuck all political awareness and know very little about anywhere in the world apart from their own small town.
The nearest thing to a politcal uprising I ever saw in Yarmouth was when they put a stop to booze cruises in the late 90's (I'm not joking).

I believe these same attitudes are rife throughout the country. The trouble is if anyone tries to communicate this in the media they get shouted down. They seem to think it's an attack on the 'working class' (I hate when they call habitual spongers working class!) to say that people don't want to work and instead start blaming the government for the jobs market. I'm not saying the Government aren't due some criticism but it helps no one to deny the existence of this under class.

If we want to stop these things from happening in the future we need better education (and not just at school - you can't expect a kid not to fall behind on his reading if he grows up in a house with no books in it), a better and more obvious system of justice being seen to be done, and a willingness in the media and government to accept just how bad things have become.

[exilewood]

materially, the state will put a roof over your head and give you enough to pay your bills.  Probably as much as the guy next door who actually works

When I stop dying of laughter, will you tell us another one?

[The Legendary Shark]

I think that much of the problem is that our Masters expect us to live to work, not work to live.

We were born free into this country, into this society. Just like every other animal. The rest of the animal kingdom works towards its own satiation and safety and generally does so in the easiest and most economical way, but we work for money. Everything, these days, is centred on money. If it's not profitable, it's a waste of time and resources. The NHS doesn't make money. Youth centres don't. People don't. Are we all becoming so niggardly that we can only appreciate a human being for what he or she owns or earns? Do we only have respect for those with jobs? Are those without jobs - no matter the reason - worthless? We have ceased to be free human beings with enough time to enjoy our lives and each other's company and become ruthless consumers with hardly a moment to ourselves. Hardly a moment to think. Conditioned to pay our bills and mortgages without actually asking why things have to be this way. To shrug and say "it's just the way things are" isn't good enough any more.

I don't think we've evolved sufficiently to understand how to use our technology properly yet. We're like kids let loose in a toy shop and we are, I think, a little insane as a species.

We have enough technology, resources and people for everyone on Earth to have a decent life. All we need to do is stop working for private profit and start working for ourselves, our community, our county, our country, our species and our planet. This change will not come from above, we have to do it ourselves.

The question is, just how badly do we want a better world?