I ask these questions because I haven't read so many Dredd comics.
Does a person need some special equipment to contact the Dark Judges or can she/he just call out their names?
Would it be too... unlikely if PJ Maybe altered his appearance and managed to infiltrate the Justice Department?
Wouldn't it be better if Dredd sometimes took off his helmet? It could maybe give him some more personality with a less robotic impression.
Is the Grand Hall of Justice and the Statue of Justice located in the same sector?
Thanks in advance.
Excellent questions, Sandman!
1. I think you'd need to be a powerful psi (telepath or empath) to remotely contact the DJs, or have some prior connection to them.
2. Can totally see PJ passing himself off as a judge, assuming he's still alive... hell, his robot passed for a former Chief Judge!
3. Dredd removes his helmet all the time - we only see the results rarely. The helmet IS his personality. At least the visible part of it.
4. The Statue and the Grand Hall... depends on the story! And seeing as both have been destroyed and rebuilt at least twice each, any answer could be right.
to add a little more to Tordelback's excellent answers:
1. There has never been an occasion of anyone "summoning" the Dark Judges - they discovered parallel Earths (and thus Mega City One) when some innocent dimension-hopping aliens arrived on their own world, where they had already purged all life. The closest I guess was Necropolis when the Sisters of Death used a psi-judge to form a link to Deadworld and take over the city. (If you like Death & Co, Necropolis is a must-read!)
2.Well he passed himself off as the mayor for a few years, so no reason why not, although it would be harder. He has used mind-control drugs to get his DNA/fingerprint records switched in the past too.
3. NOOOOOOOO!!!! His helmet is the face of justice - cold and impersonal. He represents Justice, not his own personality or desires so it's a good idea that it's stayed on all these years - besides, after 40 years, it would just be ... weird!
4. Where things are in MC1 does tend to vary! The Grand Hall is in Sector 1, and I've always kind of assumed the stature of judgement would be there too. We first saw it towering over the Statue of Liberty, but that had been moved from Ellis Island to it's spot further into the city. (in the same way that they had to explain why Mt Rushmore had been moved from South Dakota to just outside MC1 so that it would fit into the Cursed earth story.)
1. A character manages to psychically contact the Sisters of Death during Necropolis, but the effort pretty much kills her. The other Dark Judges appear to have some sort of telepathic senses, but they're only going to respond to their names being called if they're physically in the same room (this is not recommended).
2. It's not beyond PJ Maybe's abilities to do this, but he's generally a bit more cautious than that. He's more likely to brainwash someone else into doing stuff like that.
3. He does! We just don't get to see it.
4. They're usually both in Sector 44, the Core, which is above the New York Undercity. The Grand Hall of Justice has foundations that extend through Manhattan, the Statue of Judgement overlooks the Statue of Liberty which was presumably moved into the City for tourism reasons (MC1 has the Empire State Building too). Admittedly, the Statue of Judgement seems to be on the other side of the City during Inferno, but it's much bigger there so it might be a different one.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 16 November, 2016, 06:56:36 PM
(PJ Maybe) passed himself off as the mayor for a few years
He enjoyed wielding power as Mayor, but it's difficult to see why Maybe would want to get himself into a position where he couldn't have sex or live the good life. Those are pretty much what PJ lived
(and killed) for, and judges can't do them
at all.
Maybe had such easy access to Chief Judge Sinfield he was almost able to kill him. If Janet had craved the Chief Judge's chair, he could have murdered Sinfield there and then, swapped faces, and walked out the meeting as Martin Sinfield.
He lived as Don Pedro in Cuidad Barranquila, where his wealth would have bought him any position in their version of Justice Deapartment he wanted.
Never showed any interest. I did think he was going to use his resemblance to Judge Corrigan* to dodge his date with Dredd, but that didn't turn out to be the case.
* See Ladykiller (1993-1998)
Hi Sandman, I've only been reading Dredd for about a year now - I highly recommend collecting the Complete Case Files if you are really hooked and want the complete story. As Dandontdare suggested, if you want to read more Dark Judges Necropolis is a must - it is collected in its entirety in the Complete Case Files #14 (I also recommend reading The Dead Man before reading Necropolis).
Also, I would never want to see Dredd without his helmet. I think if we saw him take off his Judge helmet, he would just be wearing another Judge helmet underneath! (like a Russian nesting doll...)
Like somebody mentioned,he does take off his helmet,its just that we never see his face.He even showers with his helmet.
We do see it once;when it was altered so he can infiltrate a criminal organization.And we do see Rico's face,but after Titan,so...not really.
You also get to see Dredd without his helmet in the Dead Man and Necropolis, but his face is badly disfigured so you really don't get an idea of what he really looks like. But you do get to see his eyes (at least his eye implants) are blue. (Also, for more dark Judges, see Case Files #2 as well).
Quote from: Frank on 16 November, 2016, 07:32:08 PM
He enjoyed wielding power as Mayor, but it's difficult to see why Maybe would want to get himself into a position where he couldn't have sex or live the good life. Those are pretty much what PJ lived (and killed) for...[/i].
Certainly major parts of his motivation, but I'd say pulling off audacious schemes and being recognised for his geenyus are just as important - in the short term at least. I'm guessing he didn't make a play for Sinfield's chair because he was happy in his role as Mayor, and as Frank says, it comes with limitations. If being a judge for a spell gave him the opportunity to cock an outrageous snook or cement his reputation as the mass-murderer's mass-murderer, he'd be squeezing into those regulation Emphatically Yess's in a flash.
No I doubt if anyone could easily summon the Dark Judges. It requires violation on their behalf to make the contact. The Sisters of Death are more attuned to the Psi communication, but again they work on their terms, to their agendas. They'll get in touch....and you'll die.
Hmmmm, I'm not sold on even the charming young Maybe passing himself off as a Judge. The 20 years indoctrination would be a hard thing to feign over any amount if time. Attitude, physicality and adherence hy a real Judge to a huge multitude of procedural information and automatic actions in an almost reflex manner has given away a large amount of Jimps very quickly indeed. It is debatable in the extreme if even PJ would last more than a few hours.
The helmet is taken off regularly, its just a wee tradition in the prog that we never see old Joe's face.
The Grand Hall is situate in Sector 44, lower New York State. The Statue of Liberty is ste beside the Statue of Judgement, persumably near to hand. Z
Mister Maybe manage to infiltrate the SJS, abducts a powerful Psi-Judge and makes contact with the Dark Judges to make a deal. Does that sound too infeasible?
I'm looking for the paperback comic Judge Dredd: Complete PJ Maybe, but it's so damn expensive in the Amazon store. Can I find it somewhere for a more affordable price?
Quote from: Sandman1 on 17 November, 2016, 12:17:21 PM
I'm looking for the paperback comic Judge Dredd: Complete PJ Maybe, but it's so damn expensive in the Amazon store. Can I find it somewhere for a more affordable price?
Buy issue 36 of the "Judge Dredd Mega Collection" as a back issue from Hatchette. It's only ten quid and it's hardback. Click here. (https://www.hachettepartworks.com/judge-dredd-the-mega-collection/the-life-and-crimes-of-pj-maybe)
Btw,the celibacy rule seems to be taken more as a suggestion then a rule by a good deal of Judges.
Quote from: Lobo Baggins on 16 November, 2016, 07:17:38 PM
4. They're usually both in Sector 44, the Core, which is above the New York Undercity.
Was that before or after Judge Barratt renamed all the sectors?
Quote from: Smith on 17 November, 2016, 01:02:15 PM
Btw,the celibacy rule seems to be taken more as a suggestion then a rule by a good deal of Judges.
Until the SJS find out, that is...
Quote from: Rogue Judge on 17 November, 2016, 07:06:53 AM
You also get to see Dredd without his helmet in the Dead Man and Necropolis, but his face is badly disfigured so you really don't get an idea of what he really looks like. But you do get to see his eyes (at least his eye implants) are blue. (Also, for more dark Judges, see Case Files #2 as well).
Not only blue, but with square irises and pupils:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OmC_X5WHQhQ/Tqt8Uz0ewvI/AAAAAAAAASQ/LGlNDARCTNc/s1600/661badge.jpg)
Sector 44 was renamed after Barratt decided to raise a few cred's for the Justice Dept coffers. Z
Quote from: Sandman1 on 17 November, 2016, 12:17:21 PM
Quote from: ZenArcade on 17 November, 2016, 12:17:21 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 November, 2016, 12:17:21 PM
If being a judge for a spell gave him the opportunity to cock an outrageous snook or cement his reputation as the mass-murderer's mass-murderer, (Maybe would) be squeezing into those regulation Emphatically Yess's in a flash
Attitude, physicality and adherence ... to procedural information and automatic actions in an almost reflex manner has given away a large amount of Jimps very quickly indeed. It is debatable in the extreme if even PJ would last more than a few hours.
Mister Maybe manage to infiltrate the SJS, abducts a powerful Psi-Judge and makes contact with the Dark Judges to make a deal. Does that sound too infeasible?
That's
Ms Maybe. PJ Maybe's dead, so the plan above isn't
very feasible
[1].
I assumed you were asking if Maybe might have cheated the executioner's bullet (and frag grenade) by swapping places with a judge. As Z points out, it's difficult to pass as MCJD for any length of time (http://i.imgur.com/8OmCkli.png)
[2], but I take TordelBack's point that Maybe might be able to keep it in his pants long enough to pull off something spectacular.
I'll now pay extra attention to whether Hershey has grown an Adam's apple, or is dressing to the left.
[1] PJ already met and parlayed with the Dark Judges at the end of Day Of Chaos/start of Dark Justice, so you don't have to invent contact between them.
[2] Hitman 571-573
Quote from: sheridan on 17 November, 2016, 01:05:09 PM
Quote from: Smith on 17 November, 2016, 01:02:15 PM
Btw,the celibacy rule seems to be taken more as a suggestion then a rule by a good deal of Judges.
Until the SJS find out, that is...
The odd bit of ow's-yer-clonefather seems to result in a stern caution and may not do your career any good, but it certainly attracts scrutiny and repeated instances are grounds for dismissal, or at least transfer to the Auxilliaries (who lead 'normal' lives). It's forming significant attachments that distract from duty that seems to be at the root of the prohibition (where this leaves Dredd and Vienna is anyone's guess, he's headed off in the middle of a major crisis to rescue her at least twice, and it would have been interesting to see how Sinfield and March progressed): conflict of interest and the potential for leverage against a Judge, rather than squeamishness about bumping uglies.
Classic instances of unjudicial nookie we appeared to see treated very harshly generally have some other criminality associated with them which is the actual cause of the response/sentence (e.g. The Falucci Tapes).
Quote from: Sandman1 on 17 November, 2016, 12:17:21 PM
Mister Maybe manage to infiltrate the SJS, abducts a powerful Psi-Judge and makes contact with the Dark Judges to make a deal. Does that sound too infeasible?
I guess it;s feasible but as Frank says, it's not something he'd probably want to do - and it's too close to Necropolis as a plot, so unlikely.
Many people think that the dark judges have been somewhat over-used - the recent Dead-world prequel stories provided a fantastic new twist with some awesome art, but I think it's unlikely we'll ever see another 'dark judges threaten MC1' story.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 17 November, 2016, 02:59:07 PM... I think it's unlikely we'll ever see another 'dark judges threaten MC1' story.
Care to put a currency value on that? (Sterling not accepted)
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 November, 2016, 02:57:20 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 17 November, 2016, 01:05:09 PM
Quote from: Smith on 17 November, 2016, 01:02:15 PM
Btw,the celibacy rule seems to be taken more as a suggestion then a rule by a good deal of Judges.
Until the SJS find out, that is...
The odd bit of ow's-yer-clonefather seems to result in a stern caution and may not do your career any good, but it certainly attracts scrutiny and repeated instances are grounds for dismissal, or at least transfer to the Auxilliaries (who lead 'normal' lives). It's forming significant attachments that distract from duty that seems to be at the root of the prohibition (where this leaves Dredd and Vienna is anyone's guess, he's headed off in the middle of a major crisis to rescue her at least twice, and it would have been interesting to see how Sinfield and March progressed): conflict of interest and the potential for leverage against a Judge, rather than squeamishness about bumping uglies.
Classic instances of unjudicial nookie we appeared to see treated very harshly generally have some other criminality associated with them which is the actual cause of the response/sentence (e.g. The Falucci Tapes).
Well,it is forbidden,but everybody does it anyway.Maybe not exactly everyone,but quite a few anyway.Ofc,your still sanctioned if they catch you.
Also,that seems to be just MC1 thing?Emerald Isle judges are allowed marriage.But I cant really remember more "foreign" examples.
Brit-Cit's Treasure Steel (from Armitage) is definitely married as well, but then BritCit and Murphyville may well share a judicial code. The suggestion from the handful of EuroCit stories is that pretty much anything goes, and I can't see the Ozzers keeping it in their board-shorts either. Probably something in the Ennis Chopper stories I can't remember clarifies this.
Can't think of any other obvious examples.
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 November, 2016, 03:52:42 PM
Can't think of any other obvious examples.
Tootsie roll (http://i.imgur.com/snGDkel.png) puts her head round the door wearing nothing but her boyf's shirt and all Dredd does is ask Rico where he's getting his cash from*? No wonder Dredd thought Fargo overreacted to his relationship with Sequenta Tells.
* ... and senior management are only worried about Rico's bodycount. Dredd does say standards had slipped at that time.
Considering even Dredd bends the rules now and then,standards have dropped.
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 November, 2016, 02:57:20 PM
Classic instances of unjudicial nookie we appeared to see treated very harshly generally have some other criminality associated with them which is the actual cause of the response/sentence (e.g. The Falucci Tapes).
For a long time the only instances I knew of were the Falucci Tapes and the one with the Hellfire Club in.
Quote from: Dash Decent on 17 November, 2016, 01:01:12 PMBuy issue 36 of the "Judge Dredd Mega Collection" as a back issue from Hatchette. It's only ten quid and it's hardback. Click here. (https://www.hachettepartworks.com/judge-dredd-the-mega-collection/the-life-and-crimes-of-pj-maybe)
Is it in black and white or in color?
Quote from: Dandontdare on 17 November, 2016, 02:59:07 PMMany people think that the dark judges have been somewhat over-used - the recent Dead-world prequel stories provided a fantastic new twist with some awesome art, but I think it's unlikely we'll ever see another 'dark judges threaten MC1' story.
Which enemy/enemies haven't been in the comics so much?
Well most of Dredd's enemies aren't in the prog because they're dead! Z
Quote from: Sandman1 on 17 November, 2016, 11:32:06 PM
Which enemy/enemies haven't been in the comics so much?
Dredd doesn't really have
enemies; he kills people.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 17 November, 2016, 11:32:06 PM
Quote from: Dash Decent on 17 November, 2016, 01:01:12 PMBuy issue 36 of the "Judge Dredd Mega Collection" as a back issue from Hatchette. It's only ten quid and it's hardback. Click here. (https://www.hachettepartworks.com/judge-dredd-the-mega-collection/the-life-and-crimes-of-pj-maybe)
Is it in black and white or in color?
The earliest PJ Maybe stories are mostly in B&W, as they were originally published, but the majority of the book is full colour. It's a really lovely book, and I believe it's actually got more content than The Complete PJ Maybe. The other advantage is that if you were to get the two Tour of Duty and two Day of Chaos volumes in the same MegaCollection series, I believe you'd have all the Maybe that has been collected to date (there are two recent stories, Serial Serial and Ladykiller, that haven't been collected yet), as well as having hardback versions of some of the best Dredd stories ever committed to paper.
Your 'enemies' questions gets to the heart of Dredd: people like PJ or even Judge Death might like to think of themselves as Dredd's mortal enemies, but as far as Joe is concerned they're just one more lawbreaker out of millions. Just one more perp to bring to Justice: most don't last very long.
Lets not forget Mean Machine.
Quote from: Smith on 18 November, 2016, 08:26:06 AM
Lets not forget Mean Machine.
Great example of why it's best to let Dredd shoot people.
The strip's historians cite Mean as an example of the problem of Dredd's shoot to kill policy, but it's not as if TB Grover did anything remarkable with him once the baldy kid brought him back.
Mean is a great character*, but his post-post mortem stories are great examples of the increasingly desperate measures writers take to keep members of a rogues gallery returning.
The best Mean Angel story of the last 37 years is the one where Wagner retired him for good (http://i.imgur.com/BMRzaYA.png).
* He looks great and his 'nobody tells me to ____ lessen I sez they can' schtick is just always funny
QuoteThe best Mean Angel story of the last 37 years is the one where Wagner retired him for good.
I've a lot of time for 'Travels with muh Shrink', admittedly that was still
25 years ago!
Whatever happend to Richard Dolan?
I enjoyed Grennie's noir pastiches, too, although, I agree they never quite recaptured former glories.
Quote from: AlexF on 18 November, 2016, 09:59:18 AM
QuoteThe best Mean Angel story of the last 37 years is the one where Wagner retired him for good.
I've a lot of time for 'Travels with muh Shrink'
It was a romp!
Destiny's Angel, Son Of Mean, Merry Tale Of The Christmas Angel - they're all enjoyable stuff, but if you'd sat in Tharg's office in 1982 and said
'I want to bring a character back from the grave in quite an unlikely way, but it will be worth it because these are the stories I'm going to tell', the Mighty One would probably have asked if you had any other ideas.
Regarding Richard Dolan, if you know the story of any one of the talented painters who worked for Tharg in the nineties but don't anymore, you can write them all: http://richypickle.blogspot.co.uk/
Quote from: Frank on 18 November, 2016, 10:35:01 AM
Quote from: AlexF on 18 November, 2016, 09:59:18 AM
QuoteThe best Mean Angel story of the last 37 years is the one where Wagner retired him for good./quote]
I've a lot of time for 'Travels with muh Shrink', admittedly that was still 25 years ago!
It was a romp!
Destiny's Angels, Son Of Mean, Merry Tale Of The Christmas Angel - they're all enjoyable stuff, but if you'd sat in Tharg's office in 1982 and said 'I want to bring a character back from the grave in quite an unlikely way, but it will be worth it because these are the stories I'm going to tell', the Mighty One would probably have asked if you had any other ideas.
Regarding Richard Dolan, if you know the story of any one of the talented painters who worked for Tharg in the nineties but don't anymore, you can write them all: http://richypickle.blogspot.co.uk/
Not having this. Destiny's Angels was my first Dredd story so it is objectively the second best one ever. Also, by virtue of missing the first episodes I had no idea about the resurrection until it was finally reprinted in the Case Files.
Quote from: Frank on 18 November, 2016, 09:36:04 AM
Quote from: Smith on 18 November, 2016, 08:26:06 AM
Lets not forget Mean Machine.
Great example of why it's best to let Dredd shoot people.
The strip's historians cite Mean as an example of the problem of Dredd's shoot to kill policy, but it's not as if TB Grover did anything remarkable with him once the baldy kid brought him back.
Mean is a great character*, but his post-post mortem stories are great examples of the increasingly desperate measures writers take to keep members of a rogues gallery returning.
The best Mean Angel story of the last 37 years is the one where Wagner retired him for good (http://i.imgur.com/BMRzaYA.png).
* He looks great and his 'nobody tells me to ____ lessen I sez they can' schtick is just always funny
That was a pretty heartbreaking story,I admit.You just keep think hes faking it,and that hes gonna pull a Joker on us,but no,hes just...an old man.Very much like Dredd himself.All that in just a page or two. :(
And no love for Three Amigos?
Quote from: I, Cosh on 18 November, 2016, 10:38:33 AM
Destiny's Angels was my first Dredd story so it is objectively the second best one ever.
Can't you see that prog 511's
The Beating Heart (http://i.imgur.com/ohxQqlw.jpg) was the innovative and inspirational story that took the strip in an entirely new direction, which has continued for nigh-on thirty years?
Some readers insist it's a lazy Edgar Allan Poe rip-off, and that you can see Steve Dillon starting to dial down the detail
(which would lead Tharg to pair him with Kev Walker as inker on Cinnabar and Harlem Heroes), but they're crazy as loons.
The crash opening meant certain readers were never sure if they'd missed a previous episode
(even though it says PART 1 right there at the top of the page) and
still have to check before typing this post.
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 November, 2016, 07:41:49 AMYour 'enemies' questions gets to the heart of Dredd: people like PJ or even Judge Death might like to think of themselves as Dredd's mortal enemies, but as far as Joe is concerned they're just one more lawbreaker out of millions. Just one more perp to bring to Justice: most don't last very long.
So Dredd can't really have an archenemy, but which is the most interesting ones? Who do you "need" to include in a large, comprehensive story?
The Sovs,I guess?
.
Robot Wars - Call Me Kenneth (defunct)
Luna-1 - Mr Moonie (cube)
Cursed Earth - various (mostly dead)
The Day The Law Died - Judge Cal (pavement pizza)
Judge Death - (fool, you cannot kill what does not live)
The Judge Child - Owen Krysler (dead)
Judge Death Lives - Dark Judges (undead)
Blockmania - Orlok (dead)
The Apocalypse War - Kazan/East Meg 1 (all dead)
City Of The Damned - Owen Krysler/The Mutant (dead)
Oz - Morton Judd/Judda/Chopper (dead/all dead/respected)
Necropolis - Dark Judges/Sisters Of Death/Kraken (dead and loving it)
Judgement Day - Sabbat (inactive)
Wilderlands - Mechanismo robot (discontinued), Justice Department conspirators (dead)
Inferno - Grice (roadkill)
The Pit - Bongo dude (cube)
Doomsday - Nero Narcos/Remnants of East Meg 1 (dead/wet)
The Hunting Party - spiders and sharks (dead)
Sin City - Orlok (dead)
Total War - (dead/exile)
Origins - Bad Bob Booth (dead)
Tour Of Duty - Sinfield/PJ Maybe (in a bad way/dead)
Day Of Chaos - Borisenko/East Meg 2 (dead/at bay)
Trifecta - Bachmann (dead)
Every Empire Falls - Oswin/Texas City (dead/subjugated)
Spoilers :)
Quote from: Frank on 18 November, 2016, 11:07:27 AM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 18 November, 2016, 10:38:33 AM
Destiny's Angels was my first Dredd story so it is objectively the second best one ever.
Can't you see that prog 511's The Beating Heart (http://i.imgur.com/ohxQqlw.jpg) was the innovative and inspirational story that took the strip in an entirely new direction, which has continued for nigh-on thirty years?
It was awesome. I really liked these small-scale studies of disturbed people living in a madhouse of 400 million. (That one about the weird medical zombies springs to mind, as does the Phantom of the Shoppera.) I still remember my dad laughing at the recap box description of 'insane wimp Earl Lacewing'.
Quote from: Frank on 18 November, 2016, 11:07:27 AM
(which would lead Tharg to pair him with Kev Walker as inker on Cinnabar and Harlem Heroes)
And, of course, nothing to do with Steve MacM wanting to help Kev improve his basic figure drawing and story-telling skills by pairing him with an artist who excelled in those areas, as corroborated by my own conversations with Kev, and Kev's comments on Dillon's untimely death.
Trying an experiment: "black".
Quote from: Frank on 18 November, 2016, 10:06:18 PM
Trying an experiment: "black".
I'm assuming you're attempting to imply that I will simply take a contrary position to anything you post, rather than what is actually happening, which is that I (and others) may sometimes take exception to you posting opinions and suppositions as if they are fact, and may occasionally feel compelled to point out that you're talking shite.
Speaking of supposition disguised as fact, why did you say Steve MacManus assigned Kev Walker to Cinnabar, when that story debuted in 1989 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=624) - 2 years after Burton had replaced MacManus?
What I thought was contrary about your reply was that there's no contradiction between an editor framing an offer of inking work to Walker as an opportunity to learn from an experienced artist and that editor also thinking Dillon's finishing had suffered due to the change from brush to marker pens and the demands on his time from running/contributing to Deadline.
Quote from: Frank on 19 November, 2016, 08:55:36 AM
Speaking of supposition disguised as fact, why did you say Steve MacManus assigned Kev Walker to Cinnabar, when that story debuted in 1989 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=624) - 2 years after Burton had replaced MacManus?
Because that's what Kev told me.
Quote from: Frank on 19 November, 2016, 08:55:36 AM
What I thought was contrary about your reply was that there's no contradiction between an editor framing an offer of inking work to Walker as an opportunity to learn from an experienced artist and that editor also thinking Dillon's finishing had suffered due to the change from brush to marker pens and the demands on his time from running/contributing to Deadline.
Except that you have
no evidence that this is the case. None. You believe it to be so, and you might even be right, but this is
your opinion framed as fact. Unless you
do have something to back up your assertion other than your belief, in which case I will apologise unreservedly.
.
The 2000ad Thrillcast Remembering Steve Dillon November 01, 2016 09:00 PM (https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/2000adthrillcast/episodes/2016-11-01T21_00_00-07_00)
MICHAEL MOLCHER: There was the work he did on Harlem Heroes and also Rogue Trooper, where he was inked by Kev Walker. Was that a consequence of him being in such demand he couldn't ink his own work?
RICHARD BURTON: Yes, yes. We didn't encourage that, that was the American way of doing things. We much preferred our artists to be in total control of their work.
Episode 1 of The Hit (prog 520)
(http://i.imgur.com/T3YgO1c.png?1)
Final episode of The Hit 3 (prog 603, Cinnabar followed in prog 624):
(http://i.imgur.com/mTpJ2eM.png?1)
Heavy influence of Dillon's neighbour, Brendan McCarthy, in the weight and quality of line on that second page.
I can't think of another example of an artist inking someone else's work around that time, other than deadline pressures. Talbot helped Fabry out on an episode of Time Killer and (much earlier) Garry Leach went over Bolland's pencils on The Day The Law Died.
Ewins* and McCarthy had a much looser relationship, swapping pages and individual panels in the pub, but Mark Farmer and Mike Collins were the only duo I know of (sometimes) working on the US model of penciller and inker during that period.
* Who Dillon collaborated with on Skreemer
Quote from: Frank on 19 November, 2016, 10:14:50 AM
The 2000ad Thrillcast Remembering Steve Dillon November 01, 2016 09:00 PM[/the only duo I know of (sometimes) working on the US model of penciller and inker during that period.
(https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/2000adthrillcast/episodes/2016-11-01T21_00_00-07_00)
Other than to note that I assume this is the same Richard Burton whose unreliable memory you find so amusing elsewhere, that is pretty unequivocal, and certainly supports your original statement. Fair enough! I apologise for questioning your original statement.
(Tangentially, I can't be bothered to sort out the chronology, but Mark Farmer inked a couple of Cam Kennedy Dredds, plus a lot of Mike Collins' stuff, including a whole book of Slaine. Gibbons and Bolland used to ink each other interchangeably and often uncredited during the first couple of years of 2000AD.)
.
Cheers, Jim. Dillon's legendary reliability suffering a little is understandable; at the time he was exiled in Ireland, bankrupted by Deadline and dodging the Inland Revenue (http://www.tripwiremagazine.co.uk/headlines/steve-dillon-interview/).
Probably a pretty odd question, but does it take hours or days to drive from the Grand Hall to the nearest sector that's located next to the Cursed Earth?
Hours I'd imagine.
If you go by the plucked out of the air schematics for the Lawmaster, it has a top speed of 570 kph.
New York to Ohio is about 700 odd km.
Plus teleporters have popped up from time-to-time.
My reading would be New York City to Central Pennsylvania in order to reach the post Apocalypse War West Wall. That's about 280 miles, so if you take the Lawmaster as being capable of 355 mph, you'd be there in about 50 mins. Z
Quote from: Sandman1 on 19 November, 2016, 03:53:27 PM
Probably a pretty odd question, but does it take hours or days to drive from the Grand Hall to the nearest sector that's located next to the Cursed Earth?
Depends on who's driving - a Judge on a Lawmaster using the Judges' Lane of the Mega-Ways could theoretically make the journey in just under an hour (although they'd probably just summon an H-Wagon and fly instead), but regular traffic moves at about 200 miles an hour and can become indefinitely gridlocked for no apparent reason without notice.
I am looking forward to this story you're writing, Sandman!
Sandman here's something I did a few years ago as an entertaining wee project. My imagining of Mega City One in the early 2130's. The boundaries are pretty much accurate; the rest is supposition. Z
Still one of the finest things to ever appear on this board. And I'm including Burdis' Zardoz pants in that.
Still one of the finest things to ever appear on this board. And I'm including Burdis' Zardoz pants in that.
Ok ladies, he's all yours!!! Z. :o
Quote from: ZenArcade on 19 November, 2016, 08:13:23 PM
Sandman here's something I did a few years ago as an entertaining wee project. My imagining of Mega City One in the early 2130's. The boundaries are pretty much accurate; the rest is supposition. Z
The sector numbers are pretty blurry, hard to see clearly.
Quote from: TordelBack on 19 November, 2016, 07:47:22 PM
I am looking forward to this story you're writing, Sandman!
If that eventuality ever comes into fruition, it's probably going to take a long time. I'm contemplating over a concept in an action role-playing game set in the Dredd universe. I really want to ride the Lawmaster in Mega-City One with a large, open-world structure.
GTA Mega City 1?
Quote from: Smith on 17 November, 2016, 06:10:52 AM
Like somebody mentioned,he does take off his helmet,its just that we never see his face.He even showers with his helmet.
We do see it once;when it was altered so he can infiltrate a criminal organization.And we do see Rico's face,but after Titan,so...not really.
There is a picture of his clone dad here - guess he would look pretty much like that.
(http://www.2000ad.org/artwork/dreddangel1_6.jpg)
Quote from: Sandman1 on 19 November, 2016, 11:56:08 PM
I really want to ride the Lawmaster in Mega-City One with a large, open-world structure.
So say we all. It's the Marianne Faithful song of squaxxdom.
Quote from: malkymac on 20 November, 2016, 10:12:21 AM
There is a picture of his clone dad here - guess he would look pretty much like that.
Possibly, but is it not also possible that subtle genetic manipulation was used to alter his appearance?
Quote from: Tjm86 on 20 November, 2016, 10:51:25 AM
Quote from: malkymac on 20 November, 2016, 10:12:21 AM
There is a picture of his clone dad here - guess he would look pretty much like that.
Possibly, but is it not also possible that subtle genetic manipulation was used to alter his appearance?
Possible, but never mentioned in forty years of comics. The residents of Fargoville say Dredd's the spit of the original and arrest him for
'being in illegal possession of the sacred blood and flesh of Eustace Fargo' (Origins, 1509 (http://i.imgur.com/PZAGVC0.png) and 1510 (http://i.imgur.com/mkFbTc0.png)).
Dredd and Rico were cloned from Fargo; they're described
and depicted as
'duplicates' of the other
(Blood Cadets, 1187 (http://i.imgur.com/Sk1GYwY.png)). If one clone's face is altered to make them distinct from the original, then the clones would be altered to look different to each other
[1].
Kraken was cloned from Fargo's genetic material
[2] and was depicted as looking identical to Dredd (https://acidburnshorrorshow.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/1369961-nec1.jpg?w=676) - any
'subtle manipulation' would have to be limited to the eye area
(and has never been mentioned) [3]. It's
possible ...[1] Dolman had his face changed when he left the Department, to stop him looking identical to Dredd and Rico 2
[2] In Sector House, whether Rico 2 was cloned from Dredd or Fargo is described as amounting to the same thing (http://i.imgur.com/hOYI5E2.png).
[3] It's not as if genetic altering has never been mentioned. The female Dredd clone from The Forsaken doesn't have a huge chin and Grumpy Cat mouth
Was that intentional?
Origins never show Fargos face;for obvious reasons;but he looks a bit different then here.His lower jaw does anyway.
Quote from: Smith on 20 November, 2016, 12:32:53 PM
Was that intentional?
Origins never show Fargos face;for obvious reasons;but he looks a bit different then here.His lower jaw does anyway.
They were drawn by artists with completely different styles, to be fair. That's a bit like pointing at pictures of Dredd drawn by, say, Simon Davis and Colin Macneil and arguing that Dredd must have had a face change because he looks different in each one.
Ofc,there is that;but I mean,did we know Dredd is Fargos clone at that point,or is it a bit of early weirdness?
Quote from: Smith on 20 November, 2016, 12:32:53 PM
Was that intentional? Origins never show Fargos face;for obvious reasons;but he looks a bit different then here.His lower jaw does anyway.
Difficult to say. That page appeared on the 4th of August 1984
(Dredd Angel, 377) and the reader discovered Dredd was a Fargo clone on the 27th of October that same year
(A Case For Treatment, 379 (http://i.imgur.com/n7UYShl.png)).
Whether TB Grover was laying the groundwork for the later story's revelation by introducing the idea that Fargo was cloned or just threw in that detail of Dredd's heritage as a spontaneous narrative pun on the title Father Of Justice
[1] is a matter of conjecture
[2].
What is certain is that
every time since the information that Dredd's a Fargo clone saw print, John Wagner has gone to conspicuous lengths
(often ridiculous lengths) to obscure the features of Fargo and every other Dredd clone. John Wagner clearly understands the word clone to mean perfect duplicate
[3].
[1] ... Freud's big on the significance of puns (and fathers), so it's appropriate for a story that put Dredd on the psychiatrist's chair
[2] Wagner's on record as saying he makes every story up as he goes along, but then he seems to have planned out at least the broad details of The Dead Man/Necropolis some time in advance.
[3] ... as does the rest of the world - with the exception of the casting director of the 1995 Judge Dredd movie
Quote from: Frank on 20 November, 2016, 12:10:53 PM
The residents of Fargoville say Dredd's the spit of the original and arrest him for 'being in illegal possession of the sacred blood and flesh of Eustace Fargo' (Origins,
Gah, forgot that one. Fair point.
Quote from: Smith on 20 November, 2016, 09:00:45 AM
GTA Mega City 1?
Because it is an open level design? No, because the enormous city is one of the most interesting ones in the history of comics, both in terms of architecture and its contrasts in relation to the inhabitants. The appearance strengthens Dredd, like mister Waynes relation to Gotham City.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 20 November, 2016, 03:46:52 PM
Quote from: Smith on 20 November, 2016, 09:00:45 AM
GTA Mega City 1?
Because it is an open level design? No, because the enormous city is one of the most interesting ones in the history of comics, both in terms of architecture and its contrasts in relation to the inhabitants. The appearance strengthens Dredd, like mister Waynes relation to Gotham City.
i was just kidding. :)
Personally I don't want the precise geography of MC1, and the wider world of Dredd for that matter, to ever be locked down. The layout of the city has always been (imo deliberately) vague and malleable, and I'd prefer it to stay that way. I see it like Springfield from The Simpsons - the geography is what it needs to be to facilitate a good story/gag, and in the case of MC-1, surely the point of making it so vast in the first place is so that its limited only by the imagination of the writer, and you can suddenly introduce whole areas and concepts that have never mentioned previously?
While it's great to lay out a general set of rules for a fictional universe, to me all the fun and mystery from things like Star Wars have been severely diminished by this need to have everything be explained and catalogued in the minutest detail, every little bit of ambiguity and backstory filled in.
Why do you think that Dredd hasn't achieved success in other media? The two heavy hitters in the business are pumping out films, often with great revenue, like there's no tomorrow, but the latest film about Dredd tanked at the box office. The film from 95, in my opinion, is mostly composed of crap.
Probably because the previous movie was terrible,so that might have scared people.
And it didnt have the muscle of Disney or WB behind it.
But if nothing,its still achived a cult classic standing.
Or film maybe isn't the right kind of medium for the character. A TV series or game could potentially be a more adequate format, but I haven't heard anything substantial about that sort of project.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 23 November, 2016, 12:57:49 PM
Or film maybe isn't the right kind of medium for the character. A TV series or game could potentially be a more adequate format, but I haven't heard anything substantial about that sort of project.
I've always thought comics worked perfectly myself.
Quote from: I, Cosh on 23 November, 2016, 01:00:36 PMI've always thought comics worked perfectly myself.
I'm talking about other kinds of media, not comics.
Quote from: I, Cosh on 23 November, 2016, 01:00:36 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 23 November, 2016, 12:57:49 PM
Or film maybe isn't the right kind of medium for the character. A TV series or game could potentially be a more adequate format, but I haven't heard anything substantial about that sort of project.
I've always thought comics worked perfectly myself.
Amen.
Dredd games - or even movies - don't interest me much.
Quote from: Fungus on 23 November, 2016, 02:28:50 PMAmen.
Dredd games - or even movies - don't interest me much.
Why?
The problem with Dredd is that it needed to do well in the US, despite being a blunt-instrument satire, broadly anti-US in outlook, extremely violent, following a terrible prior movie, and with some iffy marketing. It's notable that Deadpool did well, despite being violent in a less moral manner (he's a vigilante, slicing up anyone who gets in his way and almost certainly causing considerable collateral damage; Dredd's a cop doing his job). Still, when you're a juggernaut, you can barge your way in. Dredd was a minnow at the cinema.
I lean more towards the theory that Judge Dredd is a satire of American politics and culture as seen thru British eyes;and as such kinda lost on Americans.Which also summarizes why the IDW series doesnt cut it for me.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 November, 2016, 02:45:05 PMThe problem with Dredd is that it needed to do well in the US, despite being a blunt-instrument satire, broadly anti-US in outlook, extremely violent, following a terrible prior movie, and with some iffy marketing. It's notable that Deadpool did well, despite being violent in a less moral manner (he's a vigilante, slicing up anyone who gets in his way and almost certainly causing considerable collateral damage; Dredd's a cop doing his job).
As Alex Garland noted, there isn't much in the way of the comic style
satire in his version of
Dredd. It's a film in clear contrast to
Deadpool - an irreverent superhero/romantic comedy set in the financially successful
X-Men universe.
Even though it benefitted from better marketing,
Deadpool's audience was just far broader and the bloody R-rated violence is used almost as a secondary plot-mover, whereas Dredd is specifically about making a
show of violence.
John Wick is closer to
Dredd than films like
Deadpool and
Kingsman - both of which have shown that violence isn't always a barrier to financial success, but as RoboCop indicated 30 years earlier, tone is a big thing.
Quote from: Smith on 23 November, 2016, 03:50:06 PM
I lean more towards the theory that Judge Dredd is a satire of American politics and culture as seen thru British eyes;and as such kinda lost on Americans.Which also summarizes why the IDW series doesnt cut it for me.
Mr Smith, you absolutely nailed it. I'm Canadian, and am therefore have strong British influences - I think this is one of the reasons I enjoy the satire of American politics more than an American would. The satire (and violence!) is my favorite part about Dredd, but I feel it is often lost on American readers who wouldn't have the same "British" views.
Americans no more or less have a problem making or watching satire than any other country - Team America, South Park, Borat, The Simpsons, Office Space, Idiocracy, The Candidate, Wag the Dog, RoboCop, Starship Troopers, MASH, Spinal Tap, Death Race 2000 etc. all take the piss out of Yanks and all had relatively decent success, either on initial release, or over several years.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 November, 2016, 02:45:05 PM
The problem with Dredd is that it needed to do well in the US, despite being a blunt-instrument satire, broadly anti-US in outlook, extremely violent, following a terrible prior movie, and with some iffy marketing. It's notable that Deadpool did well, despite being violent in a less moral manner (he's a vigilante, slicing up anyone who gets in his way and almost certainly causing considerable collateral damage; Dredd's a cop doing his job). Still, when you're a juggernaut, you can barge your way in. Dredd was a minnow at the cinema.
While they're very different films, the key difference for me is that Deadpool was actually marketed, and marketed well, whereas the distributors of Dredd, for whatever reason, seemed to actively
suppress any and all news and material related to the movie getting out to public. As a result, there was simply zero awareness of the film in the run up to release, even among genre movie and comic book fans.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 23 November, 2016, 08:56:12 PM
Team America, South Park, Borat, The Simpsons, Office Space, Idiocracy, The Candidate, Wag the Dog, RoboCop, Starship Troopers, MASH, Spinal Tap, Death Race 2000 ...
(http://i.imgur.com/SA83duK.png)
Dredd (2012) is satire in the same way that White Chicks is about gender fluidity
Quote from: radiator on 23 November, 2016, 09:34:09 PM
While they're very different films, the key difference for me is that Deadpool was actually marketed, and marketed well, whereas the distributors of Dredd, for whatever reason, seemed to actively suppress any and all news and material related to the movie getting out to public. As a result, there was simply zero awareness of the film in the run up to release, even among genre movie and comic book fans.
There's definitely a case for cockeyed marketing - that and lack of stars didn't help - but Stallone cast a long shadow over any marketing. Anecdotally, I'm not sure there's even an example of a reboot/remake becoming a hit after the first version to make it to the big screen was a flop. First impressions an' all that.
Still though, Dredd got a lot more marketing in the US than a lot of films in its budget range.
Dredd always faced an uphill battle at the box office, but the marketing sank it.
From the word go, it was a disaster. From the aforementioned media blackout (still utterly mind-boggling), the delay of the film's release (meaning Empire's exclusive cover feature was published an entire calendar year before the film eventually opened) to the decision (IIRC, against the filmmaker's wishes) to tack '3D' onto the title and to largely release the film only in that format at the exact moment the 3D bubble burst, to the rubbish theatrical trailer, to the failure to communicate that it a)wasn't a sequel to or remake of the Stallone film, and b) the pedigree of the film and the talent involved. Man, even the promotional stills they did release were, in my opinion, very unflattering of the film:
(http://cdn.movieweb.com/img.site/PH00ljyTJHcu35_1_l.jpg)
(https://static.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/51ce6099e4b0d911b4489b79/51ce61cde4b0d911b44a190a/1311616554054/1000w/judgedreddmagcover.jpeg)
It didn't really stand a chance.
The 3D only seemed to be a real barrier - I ahd a few friends at work who were more than willing to see it, but once it came out as 3D, I hung on assuming a normal release would come along, then had to rush in by myself to a 3D screening when it becaome clear that wasnt happening
Empire covers are usually shite but we also got these -
(https://isaacspictureconclusions.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/dredd2012.jpg)
(http://digitalspyuk.cdnds.net/12/33/980x653/gallery_movies_dredd_still_6.jpg)(https://cdn.instructables.com/FMT/UEF6/I20VTOH5/FMTUEF6I20VTOH5.MEDIUM.jpg)
With good and bad promo material few took much notice until Dredd left cinemas. Even with good marketing Dredd would probably have made $100 million max.
So the satire of American politics and culture is a fundamental attribute of the comics. Which comics have the most noticeable or/and best depiction of this attribute? Is it something that defines Dredd as a character?
QuoteEmpire covers are usually shite
I think the design, chintzy fonts and layout of that 'Heroes of 2012' cover really does
not present the image in a good light - there's something really awkward about the pose that - to me - makes him kinda look like an old man... But the subscriber cover was actually really cool. Classy. It's a shame they didn't put out more material like this:
(http://www.africanphoto.co.za/images/news/dredd_empire_cover.jpg)
I vividly remember all throughout the production of Dredd being really confused as to why they were actively keeping everything about the movie under wraps, but thinking "any minute now, they'll begin the media blitz".... "they're bound to release some really slick promotional art that will put the unfortunate leaked set photos into context and reassure everyone"... and it just kinda... never arrived. No character-specific posters, no teaser trailers, no premiere, very little social media prescence, just a couple of promotional bits that just kinda dribbled out in a very unceremonious way... I know they didn't have the marketing budget of a blockbuster, and Karl, bless him, clearly did the best he could humanly do, appearing on just about everything he could to promote the heck out of the movie, but it just kinda felt, to me, that the distributor perhaps didn't have much confidence in the film.
I think the censorship rating did it no favours. Yes it's Dredd and there should be action and shoot-outs etc but why limit the potential audience when they could've throttled back a tad and scooped a wider pool? Once you've got everyone's interest, then you can push things in the sequel if you want to.
Ditto the 3D thing as noted. I recall complaints at the time from people looking for the 2D version at the cinema, finding it "3D or nothing" and opting for nothing.
To back up a bit,nobody said Americans dont get satire.And we all liked Simpsons and South Park at one point,but thats just different from Judge Dredd style.
And I wouldnt say its anti-American.Its more anti-everyone in that sense.TBH,British Judges arent that better from their "cousins" here.
Yes,the movie didnt have the satire element,but like everyone said,it had other problems.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 23 November, 2016, 11:26:50 PM
So the satire ... is a fundamental attribute of the comics
Is it
satire? Nothing in Judge Dredd's
A Modest Proposal (https://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Texts/modest.html).
During the eighties, the strip was written by a duo who say their natural mode was comedy, who combed newspapers for story ideas*, but I'm not sure poking fun at fat people or militarism by exaggerating them to ludicrous extremes makes
(much of) a point.
The TB Grover era of fads and orangutan mayors only accounts for 7 years of the strip's history, and for most of the last thirty years Dredd's world has been pretty insular and self referential**.
* Eighties Dredd strips are a burlesque of UK tabloid culture in the same way Big Dave was - imagining what the world would be like if the shite those rags printed actually reflected reality. Dole culture, telly and the tax system figure large during the TB Grover years, and you can make a case for McGruder as a Thatcher analogue. Other than Citi-Def units being armed to the teeth, not much refers specifically to US culture.
** With stories like Origins, Tour of Duty and Day Of Chaos referring to and extrapolating from previous stories (The Cursed Earth, The Day The Law Died and The Apocalypse War, respectively), rather than events in the real world
And crazy militia/boy scout camps?
Quote from: Smith on 24 November, 2016, 12:16:51 PM
And crazy militia/boy scout camps?
Nobody ever describes
DR & Quinch as satire: LINK (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/64/b6/1d/64b61d460d35b4b2b03760f9b60f148e.jpg)
Quote from: Frank on 24 November, 2016, 12:36:26 PM
Quote from: Smith on 24 November, 2016, 12:16:51 PM
And crazy militia/boy scout camps?
Nobody ever describes DR & Quinch as satire: LINK (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/64/b6/1d/64b61d460d35b4b2b03760f9b60f148e.jpg)
That was a bit different.It was just DR scheme to make quick money and terrorize some kids along the way.
JD takes a boy scout camp and frames it as a survivalist militia.Its an outlandish concept played straight,different from DR and Quich who play it for comedy.
Quote from: Smith on 24 November, 2016, 01:03:29 PM
Its an outlandish concept played straight
My copy of
Camp Demento (1045-1046) must have extra pages! LINKY (http://i.imgur.com/vipGryX.png) - LINKY (http://i.imgur.com/eNf03K6.png)
As straight as anything else in the JD universe.Come on,competative eating is a popular sport.
But thats still satire,where DR and Quinch was a comedy.
Who knows how 2D would have affected things? Perhaps the ticket sales wouldn't have gone up in number, meaning a lower take. Or perhaps they would have, but only to the point of making the same amount of money, given that 3D costs more (or at least did at the time – we don't go to the flicks now we have mini-IP).
What's perhaps less defensible is the reported tiny number of 2D prints, killing stone dead any chance of a long tail. (IIRC, we did get a couple of them locally, but only for one week per cinema, and not at the same time.)
What's perhaps most crushing is the widespread critical acclaim meant broadly little in terms of take and some of the publications you'd have expected to have been more excited posted some surprisingly middling reviews.
Quote from: Frank on 24 November, 2016, 12:36:26 PM
Quote from: Smith on 24 November, 2016, 12:16:51 PM
And crazy militia/boy scout camps?
Nobody ever describes DR & Quinch as satire: LINK (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/64/b6/1d/64b61d460d35b4b2b03760f9b60f148e.jpg)
More relevant perhaps, wasn't there also a Dredd story about a bus load of missing boy scouts in the Cursed Earth being raised by crazy gun-toting militia types?
Quote from: Dandontdare on 24 November, 2016, 02:49:03 PM
Quote from: Frank on 24 November, 2016, 12:36:26 PM
Quote from: Smith on 24 November, 2016, 12:16:51 PM
And crazy militia/boy scout camps?
Nobody ever describes DR & Quinch as satire: LINK (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/64/b6/1d/64b61d460d35b4b2b03760f9b60f148e.jpg)
More relevant perhaps, wasn't there also a Dredd story about a bus load of missing boy scouts in the Cursed Earth being raised by crazy gun-toting militia types?
I thinks thats the one we are discussing,
Camp Demento.
Quote from: Frank on 24 November, 2016, 11:53:22 AM
Is it satire? Nothing in Judge Dredd's A Modest Proposal (https://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Texts/modest.html).
I don't know, I've only read four Dredd comics.
Quote from: Frank on 24 November, 2016, 11:53:22 AMDuring the eighties, the strip was written by a duo who say their natural mode was comedy, who combed newspapers for story ideas*, but I'm not sure poking fun at fat people or militarism by exaggerating them to ludicrous extremes makes (much of) a point.
The TB Grover era of fads and orangutan mayors only accounts for 7 years of the strip's history, and for most of the last thirty years Dredd's world has been pretty insular and self referential**.
So the comedy or the alleged satire falls flat and hasn't really been a prominent part of the comics during the last three decades?
Not really,we still get stuff like the Billious Barrage story in Meg.
And ofc,not every story is funny,but the world itself has plenty of not-so-serious elements treated seriously.Sexual Olympics are a thing,for Gruds sake.
Quote from: Smith on 24 November, 2016, 02:20:08 PM
(Camp Demento was played as) straight as anything else in the JD universe ... But thats still satire, where DR and Quinch was a comedy
Camp Demento seems like a pretty good example of what I describe above - using something that was in the news a lot in 1997
(Militia movements) as the springboard for a story and some laughs ... without having anything profound to say about them or making a particular point.
If drowning Demento in raw sewage can be elevated to the level of
satire, Al's Baby must be a satire on the Mafia (http://i.imgur.com/Hdma7QG.png)*? I think you're getting hung up on categories, buddy -
there's no contradiction between something being a comedy and being a satire.
If you think
Camp Demento was satirising the militia movement, you'd also have to accept that DR & Quinch was making a similar satirical point about Summer camps.
I don't think either are really satire, since neither is making a targeted point about their subject - just using them as springboards for stories.
* And the equivalent scene in Preacher, a satire on Vietnam?
I mostly agree there.And using something from the headlines as a springboard for some laughs is satire.Thou its not that funny when they start shooting.And Camp Demento was really just a first example I remembered,its hardly the best one.
Definitions aside,I just wanted to say that Judge Dredd has some satirical elements.Can we all agree on that?
Quote from: Smith on 24 November, 2016, 04:24:18 PM
Judge Dredd has some satirical elements.Can we all agree on that?
Aye (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire#Humor)!
Quote from: Frank on 24 November, 2016, 05:49:04 PM
Quote from: Smith on 24 November, 2016, 04:24:18 PM
Judge Dredd has some satirical elements.Can we all agree on that?
Aye (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire#Humor)!
I was wondering when somebody is going to dig up the Wikipedia definition. ;)
Quote from: Smith on 24 November, 2016, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Frank on 24 November, 2016, 05:49:04 PM
Quote from: Smith on 24 November, 2016, 04:24:18 PM
Judge Dredd has some satirical elements.Can we all agree on that?
Aye (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire#Humor)!
I was wondering when somebody is going to dig up the Wikipedia definition. ;)
It features a section on the fundamental importance of shite to satire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire#Classifications_by_topics), so what do I know.
Apparently,a good deal. ::)
Quote from: Smith on 24 November, 2016, 06:22:09 PM
Apparently,a good deal. ::)
That was satire!
Know it when I see it.
I thought the definition of satire was tiered seating.
What do you think about different depictions of established characters? I was looking up the arachnids by the name of Nosferatu and they gave me the impression of being primitive, but I want them to be way more functional in social settings when they are "undercover".
Have PJ Maybe collaborated with other antagonists to achieve something? Would it seem strange if he did?
To back up a bit,on the subject of clones-there is also Dolman,another Fargo/Dredd clone.And we do see his face pretty often.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6cMjGaqgHdY/V6CiewwkNNI/AAAAAAAAFU8/P9w05NWt9zc1y2tpqIH97QL-bCjz5_qfgCK4B/s1600/Dolman%2BGeorge%2BMichael.JPG)
There is probably an explanation for that.
Quote from: Smith on 26 November, 2016, 05:17:08 PM
There is probably an explanation for that.
There is. He got a face-change at the end of the first story he appeared in.
Quote from: Greg M. on 26 November, 2016, 05:19:57 PM
Quote from: Smith on 26 November, 2016, 05:17:08 PM
There is probably an explanation for that.
There is. He got a face-change at the end of the first story he appeared in.
I did remember that after posting. :)
Quote from: Smith on 23 November, 2016, 03:50:06 PM
I lean more towards the theory that Judge Dredd is a satire of American politics and culture as seen thru British eyes;and as such kinda lost on Americans.Which also summarizes why the IDW series doesnt cut it for me.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 November, 2016, 02:45:05 PM
The problem with Dredd is that it needed to do well in the US, despite being a blunt-instrument satire, broadly anti-US in outlook, extremely violent, following a terrible prior movie, and with some iffy marketing. It's notable that Deadpool did well, despite being violent in a less moral manner (he's a vigilante, slicing up anyone who gets in his way and almost certainly causing considerable collateral damage; Dredd's a cop doing his job). Still, when you're a juggernaut, you can barge your way in. Dredd was a minnow at the cinema.
A well done low budget action thriller without much marketing budget didn't catch on money wise. I don't think there's much more to it than that. Plenty of anti-estabishment films have done well at the box office. I doubt the average citizen who saw Dredd advertising (if they ever saw any) was aware that Dredd had these particular views to share.
Quote from: Rogue Judge on 23 November, 2016, 08:27:47 PM
Quote from: Smith on 23 November, 2016, 03:50:06 PM
I lean more towards the theory that Judge Dredd is a satire of American politics and culture as seen thru British eyes;and as such kinda lost on Americans.Which also summarizes why the IDW series doesnt cut it for me.
Mr Smith, you absolutely nailed it. I'm Canadian, and am therefore have strong British influences - I think this is one of the reasons I enjoy the satire of American politics more than an American would. The satire (and violence!) is my favorite part about Dredd, but I feel it is often lost on American readers who wouldn't have the same "British" views.
This is silliness. Plus John Wagner had an American upbringing (for the first 12 years or so anyway), if you weren't aware. You think people in USA can't enjoy satire or partake in writing satire of their country? Strangely divisive and generalized views, everybody is an individual. And of course "American upbringing" is deliberately a vague comment, USA is so vast and diverse it's pretty much a series of smaller countries linked together, culturally. It's a big place, as is the world.
As for IDW, do you like Mark Millar's run on Dredd in 2000AD? I do not. I don't think it makes much sense to choose one attribute (country), and run with that. I don't think the IDW stuff is good myself (only read some bits of it), but again it's pretty baseless to pin it on the country. Surely plenty of writers from many countries including the US could write Dredd well, especially if given editorial that gets the concept.
And all that said, I don't see a need for another concurrent run of Judge Dredd.
Short version of all this, saying a large country of people doesn't "get" Dredd as the reason for it not being known/popular is quite the pointless and meaningless pat on the back. Plenty of great things aren't overly well known or popular in plenty of places.
^Just see the last two pages of this thread,where we go thru this.
I did read them, and indeed there are some people who pointed out Americans can enjoy satire etc. But I did say points and address specific things said that weren't entirely redundant.
I've been posting here for many years and still see the same ignorant stereotypical crap, so apparently it's okay to just repeat that stuff ad nauseam none the less.
I don't think anybody else mentioned IDW for example, I thought your point on that was wrong, so I explained why.
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 29 November, 2016, 11:58:36 PM
This is silliness. Plus John Wagner had an American upbringing (for the first 12 years or so anyway), if you weren't aware. You think people in USA can't enjoy satire or partake in writing satire of their country? Strangely divisive and generalized views, everybody is an individual. And of course "American upbringing" is deliberately a vague comment, USA is so vast and diverse it's pretty much a series of smaller countries linked together, culturally. It's a big place, as is the world.
All I said was that I possibly enjoy the satire
more than the average American, not that they dont enjoy it. I think its easier to laugh at being an outsider, possibly because its easier to see. Americans enjoy satire, this has been established, but satire about them may, IMO, be more readily enjoyed by an outsider. That was the point I was trying to make - I could be wrong.
On an unrelated note, from the history tab of the 2000AD website
"Imaginative, hard-hitting stories and eye-popping art have made 2000 AD essential reading -
from the violent satire of futuristic lawman Judge Dredd and the war-torn world of Rogue Trooper to the robot mayhem of the ABC Warriors and the stone-cold mutant killers of Strontium Dog."
Sounds like Tharg the Mighty thinks Dredd is satire too!
I don't really get that, personally I don't think laughing at other countries is easier than laughing at your own. At least not to the kind of person (who is in every country) who would be reading something like Judge Dredd in the first place.
And of course, even while the setting is geographically in a fictional USA, it's not like Thatcher era stuff from those shores weren't included in the scope of the satire. I really think people are looking at this in an overly specific and divisive way which is to my point of view, strange. Since we're all just people appreciating a common thing, I don't think you being north of me or Wagner being east of me has much effect on that.
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 30 November, 2016, 06:33:37 AM
Since we're all just people appreciating a common theme, I don't think you being north of me or Wagner being east of me has much effect on that.
Point taken. I'm not intentionally being divisive, just trying to rationalize why Dredd is so much more popular in the UK than the US. Discussion is an effective way of reaching conclusions, these are just ideas. I know a ton of Americans through work (and go there frequently), they enjoy humor as much as anyone - but for whatever reason, Dredd is just not as popular (I wish the movie had done better too!).
Where are your Canada numbers, huh? What if it sells even worse in your neighborhood? :P
Haha it likely does. I have to buy most 2000 AD books online because local retailers sadly don't carry them! But then again, our population doesn't help any comic publisher much - the manager from my local CBS recently told me Canada makes up less than 10% of marvels comic sales.
Canadians are relatively proud of our history with the UK, I was just trying to draw a line as to why I enjoy Dredd as much as the UK does, maybe it was a stretch. :)
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 30 November, 2016, 06:27:00 AM
I did read them, and indeed there are some people who pointed out Americans can enjoy satire etc. But I did say points and address specific things said that weren't entirely redundant.
I've been posting here for many years and still see the same ignorant stereotypical crap, so apparently it's okay to just repeat that stuff ad nauseam none the less.
I don't think anybody else mentioned IDW for example, I thought your point on that was wrong, so I explained why.
Yet you mostly repeated things Frank already said.
You obviously missed the part where I say: Nobody said Americans don't get satire,Im just saying its a different flavor then say Simpsons or Family Guy or South Park.I dont see how that was nationalism or how you extrapolated that I think Im better then anyone.
You said "I lean more towards the theory that Judge Dredd is a satire of American politics and culture as seen thru British eyes;and as such kinda lost on Americans.Which also summarizes why the IDW series doesnt cut it for me."
I replied to that, you posted the ignorant opinion to start with, so it makes sense that the reply is also "kinda lost" on you.
Allow me to be the stereotypical (peacekeeping) Canadian here - "Everybody is entitled to their opinions, gentlemen" :D
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 30 November, 2016, 06:54:02 AM
You said "I lean more towards the theory that Judge Dredd is a satire of American politics and culture as seen thru British eyes;and as such kinda lost on Americans.Which also summarizes why the IDW series doesnt cut it for me."
I replied to that, you posted the ignorant opinion to start with, so it makes sense that the reply is also "kinda lost" on you.
Maybe you should have read the next two pages where we go in way too details over that before rushing in to post how you dont like the new guys around here and how your opinion is the only right one.Just saying.
And that was
Judge Dredds style of humor might be lost on Americans
not Satire is lost on Americans.Just for the record.
I explained how your ignorant bigoted views are wrong, not surprising you'd reject it.
There's a wide variety of people in all these countries, all kinds of personalities and tastes.
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 30 November, 2016, 07:00:46 AM
I explained how your ignorant bigoted views are wrong, not surprising you'd reject it.
Explained?Really?Thats what name-calling is these days?
You also missed the part where I really dont see how you extrapolated "My bigoted views" from anywhere.
I live in America, Dredd is my favorite comic, Wagner is my favorite writer, etc. I pick up what he's putting down, and I feel overall the populace I share this large country with have as decent odds at it as those in Canada or UK.
And really, in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty niche these days in the UK as well. Plus it started in the UK, and the anthology format largely isn't popular in the US. So overall I think the whole generalization that Dredd is "kinda lost" on Americans as you say is yes an ignorant thing, and yes I think it's fair to explain that.
And hey, an American metal band Anthrax wrote "I Am The Law" honoring Dredd back in the 80s.
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 30 November, 2016, 07:00:46 AM
I did read them, as mentioned. You've been posting here for like a couple weeks, maybe lay off on the whole telling people how to post thing, and while you're at it learn that it's silly to generalize huge populaces.
Ahh now PG, go easy: how many times has the 'yanks don't get the satire' theory been put forward here (and elsewhere) over the years? I'd agree with your interpretation entirely, but probably partly because I've seen the argument rehearsed a dozen times already. It's a perfectly normal idea to have about Dredd, and I'm sure Smith isn't the only one here that thinks it either.
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 30 November, 2016, 07:07:00 AM
I live in America, Dredd is my favorite comic, Wagner is my favorite writer, etc. I pick up what he's putting down, and I feel overall the populace I share this large country with have as decent odds at it as those in Canada or UK.
And really, in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty niche these days in the UK as well. Plus it started in the UK, and the anthology format largely isn't popular in the US. So overall I think the whole generalization that Dredd is "kinda lost" on Americans as you say is yes an ignorant thing, and yes I think it's fair to explain that.
And hey, an American metal band Anthrax wrote "I Am The Law" honoring Dredd back in the 80s.
Again,nobody said 2000AD is outselling Batman.And Im sorry if you took that personally,it wasn't meant like that.
1)To simplify,yes,Judge Dredd just isn't mainstream enough.
2)At least read the argument before you answer to something 5 pages ago,parroting stuff people have already said.
Why do you have an opinion that overall 318+ million people are "kinda lost" on a comic book, and what do you base this on? How would you know the tastes of these readers? And if you don't mean that, then why did you say such? As for reading the topic, I mentioned several times that I have.
And overall, isn't it odd to have an opinion that is "X country doesn't get Y"? I genuinely don't have any opinions of that nature. There are people all over the world reading everything.
And as Tordelback mentioned, this has come up many times over the years. So to me that just adds to how odd it is. In 2016 people are making these huge generalizations.
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 30 November, 2016, 07:21:57 AM
Why do you have an opinion that overall 318+ million people are "kinda lost" on a comic book, and what do you base this on? How would you know the tastes of these readers? And if you don't mean that, then why did you say such? As for reading the topic, I mentioned several times that I have.
And overall, isn't it odd to have an opinion that is "X country doesn't get Y"? I genuinely don't have any opinions of that nature. There are people all over the world reading everything.
No,you took one thing I said,twisted it upside down and extrapolated everything about me from it.
Do 318+ million people read comics?No,they dont.
Read my previous post.But at this point its pretty obvious your ignoring everyone's answers and just trolling.Or you just feel obliged to show new guys they cant have an opinion different then yours.
Speaking of Americans, vot in der name of der cucumber is Strontium Dog? He says things like "I reckon"... Is he American? When reading him speak, I am trying to figure out what kind of accent he has.
Can somebody explain to Smith why having prejudiced views about entire countries of people is not good?
Quote from: Rogue Judge on 30 November, 2016, 07:29:19 AM
Speaking of Americans, vot in der name of der cucumber is Strontium Dog? He says things like "I reckon"... Is he American? When reading him speak, I am trying to figure out what kind of accent he has.
He was born in Britain.So I guess-mutant accent? :)
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 30 November, 2016, 07:30:54 AM
Can somebody explain to Smith why having prejudiced views about entire countries of people is not good?
Oh Grud,you are trolling.
If anything,Im prejudiced against 50-80K comic readers,but a whole country is a bit much. :lol:
Quote from: Smith on 30 November, 2016, 07:35:48 AM
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 30 November, 2016, 07:30:54 AM
Can somebody explain to Smith why having prejudiced views about entire countries of people is not good?
Oh Grud,you are trolling.
If anything,Im prejudiced against 50-80K comic readers,but a whole country is a bit much. :lol:
You said Dredd is kinda lost on Americans. I replied to it, and honestly I don't know why I bothered, you are set in your ignorant bigoted ways. Or if not (I hope not!), then you're the one who's trolling, posting stuff that you don't mean.
But unfortunately, you haven't even rescinded one bit, so it seems you genuinely believe what you said.
For the 100th time,I don't know how you extrapolated my views from a single sentence about a comic. :lol:
That sentence is what we're discussing! If you believe what you wrote, it honestly is disgusting to me, that is all.
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 30 November, 2016, 07:42:29 AM
That sentence is what we're discussing! If you believe what you wrote, it honestly is disgusting to me, that is all.
NOW who is being a bigot?
That JD(and 2000AD as a whole) are very different in style then say Simpsons or South Park?Yes.
And if you see that as hateful,then that's your problem.
Quote from: Smith on 30 November, 2016, 07:32:30 AM
Quote from: Rogue Judge on 30 November, 2016, 07:29:19 AM
Speaking of Americans, vot in der name of der cucumber is Strontium Dog? He says things like "I reckon"... Is he American? When reading him speak, I am trying to figure out what kind of accent he has.
He was born in Britain.So I guess-mutant accent? :)
He's English, in the future, and [spoiler]written as a work of fiction by someone who likes westerns.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Trout on 30 November, 2016, 07:59:17 AM
Quote from: Smith on 30 November, 2016, 07:32:30 AM
Quote from: Rogue Judge on 30 November, 2016, 07:29:19 AM
Speaking of Americans, vot in der name of der cucumber is Strontium Dog? He says things like "I reckon"... Is he American? When reading him speak, I am trying to figure out what kind of accent he has.
He was born in Britain.So I guess-mutant accent? :)
He's English, in the future, and [spoiler]written as a work of fiction by someone who likes westerns.[/spoiler]
Who knew? ::)
Ah thanks, that explains it! Im reading my way through search/destroy files volume one and am digging the western vibes.
Quote from: Rogue Judge on 30 November, 2016, 08:09:55 AM
Ah thanks, that explains it! Im reading my way through search/destroy files volume one and am digging the western vibes.
You'll get to the
Portrait of a Mutant soon and get the whole origin story.
Quote from: Rogue Judge on 30 November, 2016, 08:09:55 AM
Ah thanks, that explains it! Im reading my way through search/destroy files volume one and am digging the western vibes.
Somebody on this board (can't remember who) said that John Wagner said that Johnny talks a bit like Daniel Craig. Vague but true
Me I think
We asked John Wagner when we were making Searcg/Destroy and he said 'wel spoken, not too posh - Daniel Craig' or along those lines
Cheers
Steve
There you go. Thanks, Steve!
Thanks guys! Daniel Craig it is. Also, I adhere to the theory that Dredd sounds like Clint Eastwood, it think it matches his frown nicely.
How many different variations of the classic suit has Dredd used over the years? I mean regular attire during street patrolling, not space suits and any other special suits. I've seen the one with a raincoat and the one they used in the film from 2012.
Is there any determined layout of buildings in some sectors? I'm looking specifically for hotels, run-down motels and clubs in the same sector where the Grand Hall is located.
Quote from: radiator on 23 November, 2016, 09:34:09 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 November, 2016, 02:45:05 PM
The problem with Dredd is that it needed to do well in the US, despite being a blunt-instrument satire, broadly anti-US in outlook, extremely violent, following a terrible prior movie, and with some iffy marketing. It's notable that Deadpool did well, despite being violent in a less moral manner (he's a vigilante, slicing up anyone who gets in his way and almost certainly causing considerable collateral damage; Dredd's a cop doing his job). Still, when you're a juggernaut, you can barge your way in. Dredd was a minnow at the cinema.
While they're very different films, the key difference for me is that Deadpool was actually marketed, and marketed well, whereas the distributors of Dredd, for whatever reason, seemed to actively suppress any and all news and material related to the movie getting out to public. As a result, there was simply zero awareness of the film in the run up to release, even among genre movie and comic book fans.
The flaws in the marketing are the same issue as the overall flaws in the film - the lack of money.
How many mid-budget movies are successful in today's film industry? It's became a game of naturalistic indie movies made for next to nothing or mega-budget epics. The former doesn't need to make back much to be successful, the latter are usually (although not always) too big to fail.
It's not intrinsic about Dredd that caused the film to fail except the future city setting mean it can't be done the cheap and the strip has no cheerleaders in Hollywood. A bigger budget would have allowed for the wilder sci-fi ideas to be reintroduced that would have made it more distinctive. A bigger budget would have allowed the cast to include some actual stars who would have impressed the punters. And yes it would have allowed for extensive marketing efforts.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 02 December, 2016, 03:41:26 PM
How many different variations of the classic suit has Dredd used over the years? I mean regular attire during street patrolling, not space suits and any other special suits. I've seen the one with a raincoat and the one they used in the film from 2012.
Is there any determined layout of buildings in some sectors? I'm looking specifically for hotels, run-down motels and clubs in the same sector where the Grand Hall is located.
1. As many as the artists want. They make it up as they go along.
2. No. Please see answer 1.
Canon is somewhat loose in a comic book where the prevailing theme for almost 40 years has been "Fuck you. I'll do whatever I want."
:lol:
Quote from: Will Cooling on 02 December, 2016, 04:35:46 PMThe flaws in the marketing are the same issue as the overall flaws in the film - the lack of money.
Perhaps, but there's also how you use limited funds. I know quite a few people who were totally turned off by the trailer, which was tonally all over the place, and also helpfully spoiled the ending. By contrast, I recall seeing one – I think it was the Japanese trailer – that had a high-octane edit that felt more like the Carpenteresque film Dredd mostly was. Not that a better trailer would have necessarily made any difference.
Quote from: Trout on 02 December, 2016, 04:38:15 PM1. As many as the artists want. They make it up as they go along.
2. No. Please see answer 1.
Canon is somewhat loose in a comic book where the prevailing theme for almost 40 years has been "Fuck you. I'll do whatever I want.":lol:
So the overall canon in the Dredd universe is pretty loose and artists shouldn't be too concerned about that? About buildings, is there some general theme of names on buildings? I've seen quite many buildings that are named after celebrities.
Blocks are ussualy named after 20/21 century celebrities.Like Billy Zane block or Charlton Heston block.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 02 December, 2016, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: Will Cooling on 02 December, 2016, 04:35:46 PMThe flaws in the marketing are the same issue as the overall flaws in the film - the lack of money.
Perhaps, but there's also how you use limited funds. I know quite a few people who were totally turned off by the trailer, which was tonally all over the place, and also helpfully spoiled the ending. By contrast, I recall seeing one – I think it was the Japanese trailer – that had a high-octane edit that felt more like the Carpenteresque film Dredd mostly was. Not that a better trailer would have necessarily made any difference.
The Japanese trailer was so, so much better - actually made the film look exciting. The wide release US/Europe one was pretty wretched - which is weird, considering the rumours about how much they agonised over it. As you say, tonally all over the shop, leaden, unexciting, featured lots of lines of dialogue that - out of context - sounded super cheesy, and gave away too many key plot points (I didn't even realise that Ma Ma being behind the manufacture of Slo Mo was actually supposed to have been a third act twist until I saw the film, as the line revealing it was
right there in the trailer).
QuoteWhat's perhaps most crushing is the widespread critical acclaim meant broadly little in terms of take and some of the publications you'd have expected to have been more excited posted some surprisingly middling reviews.
Yep, there's something to this. It seemed to get better reviews in non-genre media or arty farty sites like Little White Lies than sci fi/comic book type places, who didn't really seem to come around to the film until DVD release - especially in the US. It's all academic now, but I think a lot of critics went in with the preconception that the film was going to be disposable trash, and only reappraised it after the reviews were published. Case in point, the guy who reviewed it for Empire (three stars) has publicly stated on at least one occasion that he regrets lowballing it.
As to reasons why Dredd, as a character has never really caught on in the US? My own theory is that Dredd, unlike the vast majority of comic characters, has had at least half(?) of his stories written by one guy - John Wagner. And Wagner's writing style, with its eccentricities and oddball sense of humour, is a bit of an acquired taste. I think a lot of people come to Dredd on the assumption that it's much heavier and more dour than it is.
^I agree.I said pretty much the same earlier.Kinda ironic,considering its set in America.
Which kinda reminds me,if you started with America,like a lot of people recommend,its gonna take some ajusting to regular happenings of Judge Dredds world.
Quote from: Will Cooling on 02 December, 2016, 04:35:46 PMThe flaws in the marketing are the same issue as the overall flaws in the film - the lack of money.
Not sure that's true even for the scale of film Dredd is. It seems that IMGlobal were funding the marketing in the US while gaining access to Lionsgate's rolodex.
"The bad news is that Deepak Nayer and Stuart Ford who put the picture together committed Reliance Entertainment to fund the $40M gap and backstop the P&A. The good news for Lionsgate is that it has minimal risk."http://deadline.com/2012/09/soft-friday-box-office-clint-eastwoods-trouble-with-the-curve-disappoints-but-end-of-watch-strong-even-if-house-1-rebooted-dredd-opens-just-dreadful-341145/
My guess is they didn't know how best to market the film early so that it could be at least moderately successful - like other mid-budget films such as Looper, District 9 or John Wick - and they were surprised by the positive response to the first public screenings, so they panicked and threw more money at the marketing, but it was too late and too ill thought-out to make a difference.
Quote from: radiator on 02 December, 2016, 08:24:23 PMAs to reasons why Dredd, as a character has never really caught on in the US? My own theory is that Dredd, unlike the vast majority of comic characters, has had at least half(?) of his stories written by one guy - John Wagner. And Wagner's writing style, with its eccentricities and oddball sense of humour, is a bit of an acquired taste. I think a lot of people come to Dredd on the assumption that it's much heavier and more dour than it is.
I think it's hard for most "foreign" comic characters to crack the US.
Quote from: radiator on 02 December, 2016, 08:24:23 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 02 December, 2016, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: Will Cooling on 02 December, 2016, 04:35:46 PMThe flaws in the marketing are the same issue as the overall flaws in the film - the lack of money.
Perhaps, but there's also how you use limited funds. I know quite a few people who were totally turned off by the trailer, which was tonally all over the place, and also helpfully spoiled the ending. By contrast, I recall seeing one – I think it was the Japanese trailer – that had a high-octane edit that felt more like the Carpenteresque film Dredd mostly was. Not that a better trailer would have necessarily made any difference.
The Japanese trailer was so, so much better - actually made the film look exciting. The wide release US/Europe one was pretty wretched - which is weird, considering the rumours about how much they agonised over it. As you say, tonally all over the shop, leaden, unexciting, featured lots of lines of dialogue that - out of context - sounded super cheesy, and gave away too many key plot points (I didn't even realise that Ma Ma being behind the manufacture of Slo Mo was actually supposed to have been a third act twist until I saw the film, as the line revealing it was right there in the trailer).
QuoteWhat's perhaps most crushing is the widespread critical acclaim meant broadly little in terms of take and some of the publications you'd have expected to have been more excited posted some surprisingly middling reviews.
Yep, there's something to this. It seemed to get better reviews in non-genre media or arty farty sites like Little White Lies than sci fi/comic book type places, who didn't really seem to come around to the film until DVD release - especially in the US.
This is a bit of a misconception, as Dredd was reviewed favourably by the majority of the genre mags in the UK.
Starburst-8/10, Sci-Fi Now-4/5, SFX-4.5/5.
Less emphasis on 3D and far more 2D prints would of surely persuaded the cinema going public to give the film a punt, especially with the knowledge that they wouldn't have to fork out extra dosh for 3D?
Maybe I'm thinking more of the big US sites. I can't remember it getting many raves, only moderately favourable notices.
QuoteMy guess is they didn't know how best to market the film early so that it could be at least moderately successful - like other mid-budget films such as Looper, District 9 or John Wick - and they were surprised by the positive response to the first public screenings, so they panicked and threw more money at the marketing, but it was too late and too ill thought-out to make a difference.
That sounds distinctly possible.
Quote from: radiator on 02 December, 2016, 08:24:23 PM
The Japanese trailer was so, so much better - actually made the film look exciting. The wide release US/Europe one was pretty wretched - which is weird, considering the rumours about how much they agonised over it. As you say, tonally all over the shop, leaden, unexciting, featured lots of lines of dialogue that - out of context - sounded super cheesy, and gave away too many key plot points (I didn't even realise that Ma Ma being behind the manufacture of Slo Mo was actually supposed to have been a third act twist until I saw the film, as the line revealing it was right there in the trailer).
There was something similar with Terminator 2: Judgement Day - if you watch the film (and pretend you don't know anything other than having seen the original) it's quite some time before you realise the T1000 can change its shape (and there are a few nice bits of foreshadowing before the big reveal).
Also witness The Phantom Menace, and Darth Maul's double-ended lightsabre. Taken on its own there's a dramatic reveal (thus showing he can duel Obi Wan and Qui Gon at the same time) that works pretty well. In the real world, however, we'd known the lightsabre was going to be double-ended long before we even had a release date...
Quote from: Sandman1 on 02 December, 2016, 03:41:26 PM
How many different variations of the classic suit has Dredd used over the years? I mean regular attire during street patrolling, not space suits and any other special suits. I've seen the one with a raincoat and the one they used in the film from 2012.
There's just one uniform. The 'raincoat'* you mention is a radcloak judges (
sometimes) wear to shield them from radiation in the Cursed Earth.
Med judges, Tek judges, SJS, and Control all wear variations on the street judge uniform, but there's no agreed version of what those uniforms look like. Each artist draws them in different (often wildly different) ways.
Same goes for what Megacity buildings look like and where they are. Grant Morrison once had a huge statue that had previously been shown facing onto the Atlantic ocean topple over and destroy the city's West wall (Inferno, prog 850 (http://i.imgur.com/JHw04qf.png)).
* Dredd doesn't mind getting wet (http://i.imgur.com/oy7i94V.png) (Riders On The Storm (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=473), prog 463)
Occasionally the early uniform has been used as a plot device.
The main evolution takes place over the first few years, after that it's fairly consistent.
Early Carlos design - small pads, rounded helmet, helmet badge is more like the respirator vent it's supposed to be.
During the Luna-1 episodes the helmet badge starts to fill out.
By the end of the Cursed Earth, pads are larger, helmet is straighter - plain pad is distinct ribs rather than the blocks of later designs.
Generally it settled down after that - Brendan McCarthy went for the flared helmet, and there was a brief addition of the cheek guards from the Stallone film.
The neck rolls of the 2012 popped up in a Leigh Gallagher strip.
Quote from: Steve Green on 03 December, 2016, 11:18:28 AM
Occasionally the early uniform has been used as a plot device.
What I think Steve means is that artists sometimes draw the uniform in the style of earlier artists in flashbacks, to indicate the era in which the story takes place (Colin MacNeil, Blood And Duty (http://i.imgur.com/1y2PAIG.png), prog 1300). There's no suggestion that these artistic variations represent actual alterations to the physical design of the uniform in the reality of the strip*.
Otherwise, Dredd would be trying out a new version of the uniform on a weekly basis.
* Unless you think that's fun - in which case, knock yourself out
I don't.
I mean there have been occasions where it's mentioned that it's an older uniform in the script.
2 or 3 I can think of only vague recollections though.
1 where Dredd does a Back to the Future and there's both an early and 'modern' uniform?
Gordon and Gibson's Judgement ghost judge has a MK1 and an earlier uniform?
A character - ex-judge maybe, kept his old uniform and jimps a bit, mention of it being out of date but will pass for current. Think it might have been the star chamberish plotline.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2230663/Uniform.jpg)
Quote from: Frank on 03 December, 2016, 11:03:32 AMThere's just one uniform. The 'raincoat'* you mention is a radcloak judges (sometimes) wear to shield them from radiation in the Cursed Earth.
Ok, so the cloak/coat they used in the beginning of the comic Judge Dredd: Origins wasn't a raincoat. That's a bummer, it would have fit quite well in a narrative with influences of film noir.
The jimp story was The Edgar Case, progs 1589-95. There's a line something like "the regalia had changed some over the years, but it would do."
Quote from: Steve Green on 03 December, 2016, 12:06:55 PM
A character - ex-judge maybe, kept his old uniform and jimps a bit, mention of it being out of date but will pass for current. Think it might have been the star chamberish plotline.
The Edgar Case (http://i.imgur.com/yZVgsFn.png), by Wagner and Goddard (1592). I've made the same argument in the past (http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=40431.msg823087#msg823087), but only to have fun at the expense of poor Skullmo.
As Skullmo goes on to point out, if we were to treat differing artists' depictions of the uniform as representing
actual physically different issues of Justice Department kit, then Dredd is some kind of Beau Brummel, wasting all that time he saves kipping in the sleep machine picking out different outfits every morning.
"Hmmm, I think I'll wear the darling McCarthy with the flares for lunch (prog 560 (http://i.imgur.com/og4OxCd.png)), then change into the sleek tailoring of the Simpson for evening wear (prog 561 (http://i.imgur.com/DrsxpVQ.png))."
It's implausible to say the uniform hasn't changed
at all over forty years, but like Kubitt says,
'minor details' ... and not tied to different artists' version of the character.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 03 December, 2016, 02:57:00 PMOk, so the cloak/coat they used in the beginning of the comic Judge Dredd: Origins wasn't a raincoat. That's a bummer, it would have fit quite well in a narrative with influences of film noir.
They do wear them as raincloaks. Dredd wore the cloak in
The Connection - both before and after he went outside city walls.
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/004_zpswxnov6l6.jpg) (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/burlearth/media/004_zpswxnov6l6.jpg.html)
Quote from: Frank on 03 December, 2016, 03:28:17 PMAs Skullmo goes on to point out, if we were to treat differing artists' depictions of the uniform as representing actual physically different issues of Justice Department kit, then Dredd is some kind of Beau Brummel, wasting all that time he saves kipping in the sleep machine picking out different outfits every morning.
It's like Mk 1 and 2 Lawgivers - it works when it needs to.
Tour of Duty - O Little Town of Bethlehem(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/087_zpstzngogpm.jpg)
Time's Squared(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/006_zpsvrjtiatg.jpg)
Quote from: Steve Green on 03 December, 2016, 12:06:55 PM
2 or 3 I can think of only vague recollections though.
1 where Dredd does a Back to the Future and there's both an early and 'modern' uniform?
Gordon and Gibson's Judgement ghost judge has a MK1 and an earlier uniform?
Carroll and Sexton's
Ghosts (1962-1968) featured one of my favourite pieces of visual storytelling in recent times. The now decrepit villain reflects on a life spent hiding in the shadows, his launch line-up era helmet in the foreground (http://i.imgur.com/S0fzJB4.jpg), silently speaking volumes about the passage of time.
What that has in common with the
Edgar Case and
Blood And Duty examples cited above is that it's being used as a storytelling device, rather than a whimsical bit of fan service. This goes back to Trout (https://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=43912.msg938373#msg938373) and SOAP's point that the details of the strip vary according to the story the creators want to tell.
If using a distinctive previous rendering of the uniform can be used to serve a purpose, then there was some kind of change in the uniform between progs 2 and 108*. If that doesn't suit the storyteller's purpose, then Zombie Dredd of 2120 hasn't changed his clothes in the previous 16 years (http://i.imgur.com/d6N8TZM.jpg).
* Changes that include some judges of the period when Justice Department deposed Booth sporting rounded crash helmets with visors and two left shoulder pads (Origins), while the ones who were with Solomon when he pronounced judgement on Booth were wearing the same style of uniform as the Dredd who tells that story in flashback during The Cursed Earth.
The dandyish Goodman decides the more rounded helmets of his youth would flatter his newly rejuved features and has the helmets redesigned for progs 2 to 60, but the ruthless Judge Cal issues straight sided helmets with less rounded eye sockets as part of his dastardly scheme to take over the department - restricting the thoughts and narrowing the vision of his adversaries?
Then there are the lesser charted years - after Origins - which afford the chance to fuck more with the design. -
The Cop (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=megprofiles&choice=355)
(https://judgetutorsemple.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/meg-cop21.jpg?w=640&h=840)
Quote from: Sandman1 on 02 December, 2016, 03:41:26 PM
How many different variations of the classic suit has Dredd used over the years? I mean regular attire during street patrolling, not space suits and any other special suits.
Only one that I can think of (http://i.imgur.com/bv50OMj.png)*, and only for a laugh at the expense of costume changes for comic characters.
* A Whole New Dredd (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=1610), by Al Ewing and David Roach
Do capes count?
Quote from: Richard on 03 December, 2016, 03:07:47 PM
The jimp story was The Edgar Case, progs 1589-95. There's a line something like "the regalia had changed some over the years, but it would do."
Cheers Richard
Quote from: Steve Green on 03 December, 2016, 07:25:13 PM
Do capes count?
Yes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AoxCkySv34)
Quote from: Frank on 03 December, 2016, 11:03:32 AM
Grant Morrison once had a huge statue that had previously been shown facing onto the Atlantic ocean topple over and destroy the city's West wall (Inferno, prog 850 (http://i.imgur.com/JHw04qf.png)).
It was just a really, really,
really tall statue and it was so big that when it fell over in the east it was horizontally long enough to reach the west and smash the wall.
The drawings might make it look like it couldn't possibly be that big but that's just a case of the artist not getting GM's visionary storytelling. It might look like it was facing the wrong way too but that's just a case of previous artists not laying the groundwork for GM's visionary story telling.
Alternatively it was a replica put up to attract tourists, or it was established as a back up base for the PSU, whose charter only allows them to hide out in Judge-shaped buildings.
Or something.
I liked Inferno at the time, and thought it was a welcome relief from the Millar and Ennis stuff that had been dogging the prog for years.
Rereading it though, it really doesn't hold up, but at least Dredd sounds like Dredd in it. (Morrison's always been good at dialogue, whereas Ennis hadn't quite got there yet.)
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 04 December, 2016, 01:31:04 PM
Dredd sounds like Dredd in it. Morrison's always been good at dialogue
That's a good point, but the tone of
the strip wasn't Dredd.
Morrison's big on surfing the
zeitgeist, and -
as far as pop culture was concerned - 1993 was the cheesey parting shot of the eighties action hero (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=1993)*, before they aged out and opened a restaurant (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx_NCsSwUkA), like footballers whose knees had gone.
In pop music (http://www.uk-charts.top-source.info/top-100-1993.shtml), it's easy to draw parallels between Morrison's over inflated retread of
tyred (sic) Dredd epic tropes and the camp self-parody of Meatloaf and the Pet Shop Boys, or the retro pastiche of The Spin Doctors and 4 Non Blondes
(shudder).
End of the road meets Middle of the Road (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y45lqHFQ5O8), but the last flowering of Carlos Ezquerra's beautiful hand coloured art made
Inferno heaven to look at:
(http://i.imgur.com/FMIR5CV.jpg)
* Although what I find most interesting about that list is how middle of the road it is - the top ten is mostly middle brow dramas for middle aged consumers. The only corporate schlock in the top ten is the dinosaur franchise, with the cartoony Stallones and Schwarzenegger pushed out to the margins
Actually,IIRC,one Wagners story right after Inferno has the Statue of Justice intact.So it could have been a different statue?Or Wagner just ignored Inferno.
Wagner doesn't ignore Inferno - he references it in 'Giant', and rebuilds the Statue in Prog 954.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 02 December, 2016, 11:08:55 PM
Quote from: radiator on 02 December, 2016, 08:24:23 PMAs to reasons why Dredd, as a character has never really caught on in the US? My own theory is that Dredd, unlike the vast majority of comic characters, has had at least half(?) of his stories written by one guy - John Wagner. And Wagner's writing style, with its eccentricities and oddball sense of humour, is a bit of an acquired taste. I think a lot of people come to Dredd on the assumption that it's much heavier and more dour than it is.
I think it's hard for most "foreign" comic characters to crack the US.
Or maybe Dredd needs to be involved in a really great project in order to bump up the interest for the character, like his own version of The Dark Knight Trilogy.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 03 December, 2016, 04:25:02 PMThey do wear them as raincloaks. Dredd wore the cloak in The Connection - both before and after he went outside city walls.(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/004_zpswxnov6l6.jpg) (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/burlearth/media/004_zpswxnov6l6.jpg.html)
So he has used it in the big city. That's nice to know.
Quote from: Frank on 04 December, 2016, 03:27:44 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 04 December, 2016, 01:31:04 PM
Dredd sounds like Dredd in it. Morrison's always been good at dialogue
That's a good point, but the tone of the strip wasn't Dredd.
True. Wagner's epics were becoming infused with a kind of brooding introspection, which worked wonderfully and made possible the seamless flow from Oz through Necropolis to the culmination of the democracy storyline. Inferno just ignored everything except the look of the characters (Grice, for example, was a fiercely pro-Judge political player in Wagner's hands, while Millar and Morrison simply disregarded all his traits and made him an anarchistic psychopathic.)
I still way prefer Inferno to Judgement Day all the same.
Well,It was still better then the Crusade.Thou,thats not saying much.
I loved Inferno when I first read it, but I hadn't read many Dredd stories at the time. Since then it's lost most of its appeal for me, because the script is pretty ropey. But Ezquerra did his best ever art on that story, and it's just beautiful to look at. Now when I see it I just try to ignore the speech balloons and concentrate in the art. There's no other story where I've been tempted to do that.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 04 December, 2016, 04:18:54 PM
an anarchistic psychopathic.)
... Or whatever. I've had a few and I can't remember whether this was the fault of dodgy autocorrect or my own frazzled brain. Or both
Which is the best comic with Judge Anderson in a leading role? I'm interested in acquiring more information about individuals in Dredd's closest acquaintances.
A summary of the narrative in Inferno states that mister Grice tried to stop democratic reform in the big city. What does the summary mean when it says democratic reform? I thought that Mega-City One already was a totalitarian police state.
After Necropolis, when the judges, under control of the Dark Judges, enacted genocide against the population of Mega City One, Dredd - who had been wrestling with his faith in the legitimacy of the judges' rule - called for a referendum; the continuation of the status quo or a return to democracy.
Though it was fiercely opposed - and a cadre of hardline judges, Grice among them, attempted to assassinate Dredd - the vote, as Dredd predicted, ultimately went the judges way (in part thanks to incredibly low voter turnout), and Dredd was able to lay to rest his doubts.
Thats another great thing about JD,how well it plays with readers symphaties.Judges run a totalitarian state,but Democrats nuke whole blocks.So whos in the right there?
the referendum also gives us some of my favourite Dredd quotes:
"When some creep's holding a las-knife to your throat, who do you want to see riding up ... your elected representative or ME?"
"Democracy's not for the people"
and
"We tried democracy once - it didn't work"
Quote from: Sandman1 on 07 December, 2016, 04:52:22 PM
Which is the best comic with Judge Anderson in a leading role? I'm interested in acquiring more information about individuals in Dredd's closest acquaintances.
Depends if you want her as sassy law-vixen or moping psychic hippy. For the former, it's her earliest solo stories - "Four Dark Judges" and "The Possessed". For the latter, probably 'The Jesus Syndrome', 'Shamballa' (seems something of a favourite for many) or 'Childhood's End'.
Justice has a price.Price is freedom.
(http://comicsalliance.com/files/2015/08/America02.jpg)
Justice has a price ..... the price is the wrong colour pads.
Quote from: Timothy on 07 December, 2016, 08:55:02 PM
Justice has a price ..... the price is the wrong colour pads.
I could live with that.
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 December, 2016, 07:14:23 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 07 December, 2016, 04:52:22 PM
Which is the best comic with Judge Anderson in a leading role? I'm interested in acquiring more information about individuals in Dredd's closest acquaintances.
Depends if you want her as sassy law-vixen or moping psychic hippy. For the former, it's her earliest solo stories - "Four Dark Judges" and "The Possessed". For the latter, probably 'The Jesus Syndrome', 'Shamballa' (seems something of a favourite for many) or 'Childhood's End'.
Greg speaks the truth.
Dredd and Anderson aren't close; they've been living separate lives for most of the last thirty years. It's a common complaint that they seem to inhabit different versions of MC1
[1], interacting only when Judge Death turns up.
The judge Dredd's known longest is Hershey
(now Chief Judge). Highlights of their relationship include
The Judge Child (https://www.amazon.com/Judge-Dredd-Child-Quest/dp/1840238798), Tour Of Duty (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00PCNPECO/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1), and
Trifecta (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00EHJVQBW/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1). His clone, Rico, and his niece/daughter/sister, Vienna, are probably next in line - see
Brothers Of The Blood (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00PLPOJ2Y/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1).
Most interesting is Judge Beeny, who is sort of Dredd's daughter, except he murdered her mum. See
America (https://www.hachettepartworks.com/judge-dredd-the-mega-collection/america), Tour Of Duty (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00PCNPEEM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1), and
Day Of Chaos (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00EHJVQC6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1).
[1] When Wagner and Grant ended their writing partnership, Alan Grant got Anderson in the divorce. Dredd's most significant interaction with Anderson without Death playing third wheel was the Doomsday epic (https://www.hachettepartworks.com/judge-dredd-the-mega-collection/doomsday-for-dredd).
Quote from: Frank on 07 December, 2016, 09:58:59 PM
When Wagner and Grant ended their writing partnership, Alan Grant got Anderson in the divorce. Dredd's most significant interaction with Anderson without Death playing third wheel was the Doomsday epic (https://www.hachettepartworks.com/judge-dredd-the-mega-collection/doomsday-for-dredd)
Mind you, the Anderson story 'Satan' ends in probably the most significant Anderson / Dredd interaction of all, in terms of defining their relationship.
Quote from: Greg M. on 08 December, 2016, 07:11:05 AM
Quote from: Frank on 07 December, 2016, 09:58:59 PM
When Wagner and Grant ended their writing partnership, Alan Grant got Anderson in the divorce. Dredd's most significant interaction with Anderson without Death playing third wheel was the Doomsday epic (https://www.hachettepartworks.com/judge-dredd-the-mega-collection/doomsday-for-dredd)
Mind you, the Anderson story 'Satan' ends in probably the most significant Anderson / Dredd interaction of all, in terms of defining their relationship.
It's kind of the only thing that, well,
happened in that story.
Quote from: radiator on 07 December, 2016, 05:09:46 PM
After Necropolis, when the judges, under control of the Dark Judges, enacted genocide against the population of Mega City One, Dredd - who had been wrestling with his faith in the legitimacy of the judges' rule - called for a referendum; the continuation of the status quo or a return to democracy.
What caused Dredd's doubts about the system? Was it the Dark Judges or some kind of characteristic traits of ambivalence? I thought Dredd was an sort of manifestation of the judges total control.
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 December, 2016, 07:14:23 PMDepends if you want her as sassy law-vixen or moping psychic hippy. For the former, it's her earliest solo stories - "Four Dark Judges" and "The Possessed". For the latter, probably 'The Jesus Syndrome', 'Shamballa' (seems something of a favourite for many) or 'Childhood's End'.
I just want a complete picture of the character.
Quote from: Frank on 07 December, 2016, 09:58:59 PMThe judge Dredd's known longest is Hershey (now Chief Judge). Highlights of their relationship include The Judge Child (https://www.amazon.com/Judge-Dredd-Child-Quest/dp/1840238798), Tour Of Duty (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00PCNPECO/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1), and Trifecta (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00EHJVQBW/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1). His clone, Rico, and his niece/daughter/sister, Vienna, are probably next in line - see Brothers Of The Blood (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00PLPOJ2Y/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1).
Most interesting is Judge Beeny, who is sort of Dredd's daughter, except he murdered her mum. See America (https://www.hachettepartworks.com/judge-dredd-the-mega-collection/america), Tour Of Duty (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00PCNPEEM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1), and Day Of Chaos (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00EHJVQC6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1).
[1] When Wagner and Grant ended their writing partnership, Alan Grant got Anderson in the divorce. Dredd's most significant interaction with Anderson without Death playing third wheel was the Doomsday epic (https://www.hachettepartworks.com/judge-dredd-the-mega-collection/doomsday-for-dredd).
Thanks for the tips!
Quote from: Sandman1 on 08 December, 2016, 04:19:31 PMWhat caused Dredd's doubts about the system? Was it the Dark Judges or some kind of characteristic traits of ambivalence? I thought Dredd was an sort of manifestation of the judges total control.
My take on this is that while Dredd is very much "we're doing this for your own good," he's fundamentally about justice, and justice only properly exists if there's rule by consent – otherwise, you have dictatorship. Dredd himself crosses this line a number of times, most notably during Silver's reign as Chief Judge. It's during this time that he ends up regretting if not the result of things like quashing a democratic march at least the actions of the judges that led to it.
There's also that notion that we arrive in Judge Dredd's world more or less when he's at his pinnacle of belief in the system, and also when MC-1 is, to some extent, a more typical future city, with a population that's somewhat mad, but not oppressed to the degree the strip would suggest later. But as Dredd ages, his belief becomes shaken, which later results in issues with democrats, mutant rights, and so on. Again, this appears to stem for a desire for justice and fairness.
Of course, this isn't always the case with the character, given that he's been written by a range of people. But it's certainly my impression of the Wagner-penned stories.
QuoteWhat caused Dredd's doubts about the system?
It was a number of different things; the growing pro-democratic movement slowly got under Dredd's skin (residual guilt for his role in Justice Department's underhand tactics in destroying the democratic march), as did, in a way, his dealings with Chopper.
A brush with death following an assassination attempt (in the post-Oz story 'The Hitman') probably portrayed Dredd in a more vulnerable light than ever before. Add to this feelings of existential angst/midlife crisis brought about by his literal replacement - in the form of his younger, more capable clone brother Kraken. All of this bubbling doubt came to a head with a letter sent to Dredd from a young boy asking questions about the justice system that Dredd could not answer ('A Letter To Judge Dredd'), and the murder of his mentor figure, Judge Morph (Morphy? can never remember), which led to his resignation and taking the long walk ('Tale of the Dead Man').
I've just recently read the stories from round about case files 11 - 15 for the first time. The way the concept of doubt gradually becomes a bigger part of the character really is wonderfully written. It very slowly seeps into Dredd, rather than being a single event.
He's clearly always had his own frustrations with the system (i think I recall a fairly early story where he's refered to a shrink after punching an accounts judge who had questioned Dredd's decision have the city fund the treatment of an injured child), but it gradually grows during these years, countered by his willingness to follow the brutal decisions of Chief Judge Silver, or his belief that the system is necessary to protect the people.
There's a lovely short story called "John Cassavetes is dead" which sees Dredd sitting on the floor, reading a banned antique copy of the Guardian, wondering why the regime needs to be quite as restrictive as it is.
Then there's "Letter to Judge Dredd", where he is forced to confront the consequences of his actions...
Quote from: Sandman1 on 08 December, 2016, 04:19:31 PM
What caused Dredd's doubts about the system ... some kind of characteristic traits of ambivalence?
Maybe. Fargo (http://i.imgur.com/h1x9wE8.png) and the original Rico (http://i.imgur.com/lNvrNLA.png) became disillusioned with the system
[1], just as Dredd did.
Dredd's speech to his peers prior to the referendum cites his concern as consent (http://i.imgur.com/VA8prew.png). He still believes instant justice and rigid control (http://i.imgur.com/wNlPMaX.png)
[2] are necessary, but he wants to hear the citizens agree
[3].
Wagner (and Grant) first started taking a look underneath Dredd's helmet back in progs 387-389 (http://i.imgur.com/LAXYckF.png)
[4], which established that Dredd's latent doubts arose when his strict adherence to the rules came into conflict with his belief that he's doing good
[5].
Those doubts came to a head in the wake of the Democratic March, when Chief Judge Silver's paradoxical instructions to Dredd were that in order to uphold the law he had to break it (http://i.imgur.com/iEF464J.png)
[6].
Dredd might have told himself he broke/bent the law for the common good, but that self deception imploded two years later, when his actions on that day were reframed as the root of spiralling indvidual tragedies (http://i.imgur.com/sPUuxUX.png)
[7].
[1] See Origins and Brothers Of The Blood, respectively
[2] Nightmares, prog 706
[3] Like a BDS&M partner taking the gag out and offering you the chance to say the safe word
[4] A Question Of Judgement, An Error Of Judgement, and A Case For Treatment
[5] It's easy for Dredd to believe rigid application of the law serves the common good in abstract terms, but more difficult in specific cases relating to individuals - in the case of both Bonnie Crickle (http://i.imgur.com/KktvLKf.png) and Fester Bunt (http://i.imgur.com/J7zMPI7.png), there's a conflict between what Dredd should do in the interests of the law and what he should do in the interests of the individual citizen
[6] Revolution, 531-533
[7] A Letter To Judge Dredd, prog 661
And yet, he's the same old Dredd.
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/DYINGWORDS_zps36b3e88e.jpg)
You could say he learned the difference between law and justice over the years.Most of the time.
Where can I read about Silver's period of governing, especially during the events that inflicts Dredd with doubts?
According to Wikipedia, Alan Grant said that a softer Dredd would ruin the character. What do you prefer, an austere depiction or a more sympathetic, humane one?
Quote from: Sandman1 on 09 December, 2016, 02:13:34 PM
Where can I read about Silver's period of governing, especially during the events that inflicts Dredd with doubts?
Judge Dredd Case Files 9-15.
http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=reprint&page=gnprofiles&choice=casefiles9
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 08 December, 2016, 07:33:47 PM
And yet, he's the same old Dredd.
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/DYINGWORDS_zps36b3e88e.jpg)
Well, yeah. Like I said above, Dredd's solution to his doubts concerning the system was to hold a referendum
(which he always knew he'd win) AND THEN NEVER SPEAK OF IT AGAIN
[1].
Dredd's a classic case of denial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial#In_psychoanalysis) and displacement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_(psychology)). Instead of confronting his problem, he focuses on a displacement activity, like the referendum, which he knows he can fix.
Same goes for Fargo's injunction that Dredd should
"fix" the justice system
(Origins). Right after that, Dredd suddenly becomes hell bent on fixing the mutant problem instead
(Tour Of Duty) and dismisses Fargo's plea
(see above^).
The impetus for that displacement activity was seeing the Fargo clan suffer under mutant legislation. Like Bonnie Crickle, Wm Wenders, and Fester Bunt, what Dredd believed was necessary for
the common good came into conflict with the interests of
the individual.
Show Dredd
a crowd, and he knows what to do
(break out the daystick^). He's certain that he knows what's good for
the city (the rigid application of the law), but that breaks down when confronted with the consequences of that ideology applied to
an individual life.
[1] Dredd takes the same attitude to consent as Julian Assange.
QuoteWhat do you prefer, an austere depiction or a more sympathetic, humane one?
Personally, I think that the appeal of Dredd is that he can pretty much be both. One week you'll get a reflective Dredd, worrying about his mortality and legacy, the next a fascist bully, busting heads.
I'm not interested in reading a comic where the main character wanders the city fretting about his repressed feelings. Nor am I interested in reading page after page of angry catchphrases and graphic ultraviolence. But a reflective fascist, busting heads whilst worrying about the future he's creating...
that's interesting.
Am I the only one who can never be arsed clicking on all those links (http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?action=profile;u=118257)? I feel like I may be missing half the argument, burt life's too short.
;)
Quote from: Dandontdare on 09 December, 2016, 09:28:34 PM
burt life's too short
He was commissioned in 1980 (http://i.imgur.com/RFDVPtd.png)*, and he's stuck around long after his human counterpart took Sega's shilling. He's had a pretty good innings.
* Tharg and The Thrill Suckers, prog 180 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=180)
Quote from: Dandontdare on 09 December, 2016, 09:28:34 PM
Am I the only one who can never be arsed clicking on all those links (http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?action=profile;u=118257)? I feel like I may be missing half the argument, burt life's too short.
;)
You not missing much.Unless you need a reminder of what denial is. ;)
A river in Egypt?
Quote from: Frank on 09 December, 2016, 05:58:10 PM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 08 December, 2016, 07:33:47 PM
And yet, he's the same old Dredd.
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/DYINGWORDS_zps36b3e88e.jpg)
Well, yeah. Like I said above, Dredd's solution to his doubts concerning the system was to hold a referendum (which he always knew he'd win) AND THEN NEVER SPEAK OF IT AGAIN [1].
Dredd's a classic case of denial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial#In_psychoanalysis) and displacement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_(psychology)). Instead of confronting his problem, he focuses on a displacement activity, like the referendum, which he knows he can fix.
Didn't he confront his problem with doubts and guilt by searching for expiation in the stories A Letter to Judge Dredd, Tale of the Dead Man, Necropolis and Democracy Referendum?
Quote from: Sandman1 on 10 December, 2016, 04:32:12 PMDidn't he confront his problem with doubts and guilt by searching for expiation in the stories A Letter to Judge Dredd, Tale of the Dead Man, Necropolis and Democracy Referendum?
"The education of a man is never completed until he dies." or something like that.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 10 December, 2016, 04:32:12 PM
Didn't he confront his problem with doubts and guilt by searching for expiation in the stories A Letter to Judge Dredd, Tale of the Dead Man, Necropolis and Democracy Referendum?
In the long series of posts above, I argued that Dredd avoided directly confronting his doubts by engaging in a series of displacement activities
[1].
I contend that
'fixing' these injustices did not address the fundamental injustice and hypocrisy at the root of Justice Department's totalitarian rule, of which Dredd seems always to have been aware
[2].
Here's the letter (http://i.imgur.com/C15jUg2.png) that set Dredd off on his
Dead Man/Necropolis/Twilight's last Gleaming odyssey. It's difficult to argue that winning the referendum fixed any of this (http://imgur.com/a/kGLQK), answered this (http://imgur.com/a/qoDht), or prevented this (http://imgur.com/a/nylyH) happening again
(see the image SOAP posted above^).
[1] The referendum called after Necropolis, for example, just gave Dredd the apparent consent of the populace to carry on doing all the unjust, ineffective things he'd been doing before.
[2] In his manual on the job of a street judge (his Comportment), Dredd describes this as 'The Big Lie (http://imgur.com/a/kPrQu)' (prog 676)
Quote from: Modern Panther on 09 December, 2016, 07:56:55 PM
I'm not interested in reading a comic where the main character wanders the city fretting about his repressed feelings. Nor am I interested in reading page after page of angry catchphrases and graphic ultraviolence. But a reflective fascist, busting heads whilst worrying about the future he's creating...that's interesting.
Well said. People who think of Dredd as being a one dimensional character would benefit from your comment.
On of the things I found a bit odd is the relation between Judges and the military.If MC1 has a military(and it obviously does) shouldnt they be a bit more active in defense of the city?Seeing there is a crisis every week.
The judges also serve as the military, but there are citizens' defence (citi-def) units too. The latter, though, generally seem more interested in protecting their own blocks than the city in general.
But there is a military,like Space Corps,Marines and all that.
Quote from: Smith on 11 December, 2016, 06:16:37 AM
On of the things I found a bit odd is the relation between Judges and the military.If MC1 has a military(and it obviously does) shouldnt they be a bit more active in defense of the city?Seeing there is a crisis every week.
When the Judges took power after the Atomic War the military were decommissioned.
We know there were "Mega Troopers" who fought with the Judges against Bad Bob Booth, but that was presumably the last action of a conventional US military. MC-1 does seem to have an offworld military force though -Colonial Marines, effectively - judging by stories like 'Mandroid' and 'Spooks'.
Quote from: Smith on 11 December, 2016, 07:46:56 AM
But there is a military,like Space Corps,Marines and all that.
They operate off-world and were only recalled after Chaos Day but they didn't fully exist
in-universe until the mid-nineties. They could feel a bit
deus ex machina by turning up in stories when they're mostly out of sight and the Judges are all ready a militarised force.
To confuse matters a bit, there is a purely military section within Justice Department - we see them led by General Poll in The Fourth Faction, who refers to other judges as 'you guys' and his troops as 'my boys', implying some kind of separate identity, and definitely separate to the Space Corps. I think there was an earlier appearance too, Dredd sharing a flight with some soldiers, but I can't put my finger on it.
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 December, 2016, 08:15:57 AM
I think there was an earlier appearance too, Dredd sharing a flight with some soldiers, but I can't put my finger on it.
This probably isn't what you were thinking of, but on Luna-1, Dredd fights alongside allied soldiers against the Sovs. Arguably, this is the story that explains why there's virtually no MC-1 army - no side is supposed to have one, and war is supposed to be settled by small teams. Obviously that goes out the window by the Apocalypse War.
Cheers, I always seem to have a mental block about the Luna-1stories, apart from the Oxygen Board, for some reason. The story I was thinking of would be around the 1300s, maybe around the time of Sin City? Possibly a follow-up story? I'd like to say it was a Rennie script but this would be before the Golden Age of Rennie Dredds (the 1400s) - so probably Wagner and maybe Marshall or Walker on art? Any takers?
Reprisal?
Wagner/Marshall
http://2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=1317 (http://2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=1317)
Ahah, that fits. Anyone have the story handy? In the Satan's Island trade, according to that.
Rough outline - Genetically modified soldiers from MC-1 attack the New Kremlin under Commander Krieg, leave a company to occupy it.
On the way back Sov prisoners are thrown out of the craft, and there is an inquiry with Dredd leading it.
All the soldiers are designed to resist interrogation/fool lie detectors so they can't be found guilty but are deployed to the worst detail Dredd can think of.
Man yersel' there, Steve. That's the one. So non-Judge MC-1 terrestrial soldiers alright, albeit under Justice Dept authority. Reasonable to assume this is part of the same force that General Poll commands. Maybe the Heavy Tank units and robots in Necropolis could be part of the same crew?
Any further info in Regime Change, I wonder.
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 December, 2016, 11:09:40 AM
Reasonable to assume this is part of the same force that General Poll commands. Maybe the Heavy Tank units and robots in Necropolis could be part of the same crew?
Any further info in Regime Change, I wonder
Hershey frames that as a humanitarian operation (http://imgur.com/a/HV2TK) under the command of Street Division. She consults 'Defence Chief Votten (http://imgur.com/a/IvCdH)' on strategy, who looks like a regular judge, without the eye augmentation and eagle chest plate worn by Krieg and Poll.
It's pretty vague; future writers could figure Poll and Krieg as outside contractors from the off-world units we've seen in so many other stories, rather than a vertically integrated division of the Department, if that suits the story they want to tell.
Interestingly, in the
Reprisal story Steve summarised, the unit under investigation are described as "genetic infantry (http://imgur.com/a/TV8KT)".
Well,there was a crossover with Rogue Trooper.
Quote from: Smith on 11 December, 2016, 01:54:24 PM
Quote from: Frank on 11 December, 2016, 12:43:09 PM
In the Reprisal story (prog 1317 (http://2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=1317)), the unit under investigation are described as "genetic infantry (http://imgur.com/a/TV8KT)".
Well,there was a crossover with Rogue Trooper
Like the
Strontium Dog crossover, that was presented as a consequence of time travel (http://i.imgur.com/jkNP6Z1.png) (prog 900 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=900)), so there's always the same get-out clause - Dredd may be part of Alpha/Friday's past, but Friday/Alpha don't necessarily represent the future of Dredd's fictional universe.
It's all much more complicated than the days when characters met up because Tharg accidentally stuck them in his pocket.
Warzone - Wagner/Holden
Proto-GI - can't remember much about the story though.
(https://stevendenton.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/warzone_ep1_page4-flat.jpg)
That's the story I thought TordelBack meant when he was talking about Dredd with a bunch of soldiers, but that's off-world and they say they're Space Corps (http://imgur.com/a/cOiH8) (Meg 240 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=megprofiles&choice=240)).
Quote from: Rogue Judge on 10 December, 2016, 08:34:41 PM
Quote from: Modern Panther on 09 December, 2016, 07:56:55 PM
I'm not interested in reading a comic where the main character wanders the city fretting about his repressed feelings. Nor am I interested in reading page after page of angry catchphrases and graphic ultraviolence. But a reflective fascist, busting heads whilst worrying about the future he's creating...that's interesting.
Well said. People who think of Dredd as being a one dimensional character would benefit from your comment.
It surely gives the character a level of... irresoluteness, a faceted foundation for interesting stories.
Quote from: Steve Green on 11 December, 2016, 02:49:18 PM
Warzone - Wagner/Holden
Proto-GI - can't remember much about the story though.
IIRC that one was worked as a sort of companion piece to
Mandroid. Nice to see Dron in that group shot!
Quote from: Steve Green on 11 December, 2016, 02:49:18 PM
Warzone - Wagner/Holden
Proto-GI - can't remember much about the story though.
One of the very, very few Wagner Dredds that I've actively disliked!
Quote from: Frank on 11 December, 2016, 12:43:09 PM
Interestingly, in the Reprisal story Steve summarised, the unit under investigation are described as "genetic infantry (http://imgur.com/a/TV8KT)".
There's no reason to assume any link with RoogueTrooper-type shenanigans - it's never made explicit but I would assume all purely military personnel by this point have
some form of genetic modification. Armon Gill (of the Chief Judge's Man stories) was an ex-military assassin augmented with leopard and cockroach genes to give him increased strength, speed, endurance, etc, but he doesn't seem to have been overly unique in this regard.
Just asking,arent 2000ad strips in the same multiverse?At least according to Sinister/Dexter.While we are on the topic of crossovers.
Well, there's the super-fanficy Helter Skelter if you want to go down that route.
The story itself-was a nice idea,but kinda comes of as "Hey,remember those guys?They were cool.2000ad used to be so much better."
But Im going off topic here.There is a multiverse,I fairly sure.
Canonically all of Tharg's tales exist as bubble universes within the the Nerve Centre.
Well okay,for all intents,its the same thing.You just have to break a dimensional barrier or two(surprisingly easy to do) for a crossover.
Quote from: Art on 13 December, 2016, 06:21:32 PM
Canonically all of Tharg's tales exist as bubble universes within the the Nerve Centre.
And several of them are kept in the same drawer, where they chat in the dark.
Have we all forgotten Armoured Gideon III?
Quote from: norton canes on 14 December, 2016, 09:21:40 AM
Have we all forgotten Armoured Gideon III?
I was about to make a smart-arsed comment like 'still trying to' but then I remembered I liked it. The change in style (both scriptwise and artwise) was great, and did the whole 'affectionate vintage comics parody' thing long before either
Albion or
Goldtiger.
Has PJ ever collaborated with another antagonist to achieve something? Would it feel like out of character if he did?
There would also be smaller (multi)verses like Dreddverse,Millsverse,EdgingtonVerse;inside the 2000 multiverse.The names could use a bit of work,but you know what I meant. :)
Quote from: Sandman1 on 14 December, 2016, 08:00:58 PM
Has PJ ever collaborated with another antagonist to achieve something? Would it feel like out of character if he did?
He had some short dalliances with the Dark Judges after Day of Chaos. You couldn't really call it collusion though, it was more a case of him outwitting them (then them doing the same to him).
The Sisters of Death seemed to be fond of him during Necropolis though, stopping their dreadful wailing to give him a pat on the head.
Quote from: Smith on 16 December, 2016, 12:01:57 PM
There would also be smaller (multi)verses like Dreddverse,Millsverse,EdgingtonVerse;inside the 2000 multiverse.The names could use a bit of work,but you know what I meant. :)
"Millarworld"
Quote from: Link Prime on 16 December, 2016, 12:22:44 PM
Quote from: Smith on 16 December, 2016, 12:01:57 PM
There would also be smaller (multi)verses like Dreddverse,Millsverse,EdgingtonVerse;inside the 2000 multiverse.The names could use a bit of work,but you know what I meant. :)
"Millarworld"
Moving on swiftly...
Quote from: Sandman1 on 14 December, 2016, 08:00:58 PM
Has PJ ever collaborated with another antagonist to achieve something? Would it feel like out of character if he did?
Very. The only thing PJ has ever collaborated with anyone (other than his favourite sexbot) on is saving PJ's skin. Even then, his number 2 priority is always going to be doing away with this person he now feels has some sort of hold over him.
I think you mentioned somewhere earlier that you were trying to come up with a setting for a game or a story or something. Now, don't take this the wrong way - it's a fun thread and people on here absolutely love to have an opportunity to spraff on about this stuff - but the easiest way to do this would be to read some of the stories you're asking about. Basing anything on a wiki article or this kind of discussion will inevitably lead to it being full of holes and inconsistencies.
Obviously, that might end up being the case anyway. At least it would be the case based on your own interpretation of the older stories and, along the way, you'd most likely pick up on a lot of the little background details which nobody would think to ask or tell otherwise.
Good luck!
I think the thing to remember about PJ is that he was very, very smart*. Smarter than Dredd, smarter than the Dark Judges, and smarter than anyone else who crossed his path. Pretty much any other Dredd villain I can think of would be out of their depth trying to collude with PJ - I don't think even Jura Edgar could have matched him in terms of elaborate schemes. It even felt a bit out of character when he failed to stop Judge Death breaking into his house.
*Which is a testament to how smart John Wagner is, turning out scripts to match Arthur Conan Doyle in terms of mental puzzles. The only other writer who has tackled PJ, (an admittedly very young) Garth Ennis, just couldn't pull off the complexity of PJ's wicked plans.
EDIT: While Cosh is of course right in saying you should read the stories yourself, by all means keep asking us questions. I don't think I'm alone in saying I love chatting about Dredd and his world.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 16 December, 2016, 12:44:04 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 16 December, 2016, 12:31:46 PM
The only thing PJ has ever collaborated with anyone (other than his favourite sexbot) on is saving PJ's skin. Even then, his number 2 priority is always going to be doing away with this person he now feels has some sort of hold over him.
Pretty much any other Dredd villain I can think of would be out of their depth trying to collude with PJ - I don't think even Jura Edgar could have matched him in terms of elaborate schemes.
All good points. Nothing original to add, so I'll just reiterate that the main problem with the idea of Maybe collaborating with another villain isn't his narcisism or his treachery; it's that he's dead (http://i.imgur.com/DLpruKq.jpg?1).
Quote from: Frank on 16 December, 2016, 01:02:56 PM
All good points. Nothing original to add, so I'll just reiterate that the main problem with the idea of Maybe collaborating with another villain isn't his narcisism or his treachery; it's that he's dead (http://i.imgur.com/DLpruKq.jpg?1).
So's Darth Vader but they still made four more films about him.
Dead? PJ isn't even born yet ;)
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 16 December, 2016, 01:22:12 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 16 December, 2016, 01:14:35 PM
So's Darth Vader but they still made four more films about him.
Dead? PJ isn't even born yet ;)
Ha! Plus,
Ladykiller had more back doors than Buckingham Palace.
I don't suppose John Wagner ever plans to unlock them, but the longer the strip goes on the more likely it is somebody else will
[1].
So there are your options, Sandman - set your game before 2039 or have the Dark Judges resurrect Maybe from the grave.
[1] Look at poor Mean Angel
Quote from: I, Cosh on 16 December, 2016, 12:31:46 PMI think you mentioned somewhere earlier that you were trying to come up with a setting for a game or a story or something. Now, don't take this the wrong way - it's a fun thread and people on here absolutely love to have an opportunity to spraff on about this stuff - but the easiest way to do this would be to read some of the stories you're asking about. Basing anything on a wiki article or this kind of discussion will inevitably lead to it being full of holes and inconsistencies.
I would never base a story on articles and these discussions. It would have been insulting against Wagner, Ezquerra, 2000 AD, Dredd as a character and you. I'm just trying to get a first impression of Dredd and the world around him. If I got the chance to write a story in the Dredd universe, I'd first make contact with Rebellion and the creators. I would treat their consent like a precious diamond.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 16 December, 2016, 12:44:04 PM*Which is a testament to how smart John Wagner is, turning out scripts to match Arthur Conan Doyle in terms of mental puzzles. The only other writer who has tackled PJ, (an admittedly very young) Garth Ennis, just couldn't pull off the complexity of PJ's wicked plans.
Sounds like an interesting challenge. Can I find this complexity in The Life and Crimes of P.J. Maybe?
Quote from: Frank on 16 December, 2016, 01:41:33 PMSo there are your options, Sandman - set your game before 2039 or have the Dark Judges resurrect Maybe from the grave.
So he dies permanently around the year 2039. That's good to know.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 16 December, 2016, 04:31:05 PM
Quote from: Frank on 16 December, 2016, 01:41:33 PM
set your game before 2138
So he dies permanently during the year 2138
Yes, as I said,
2138 (whistles insouciantly)
Quote from: Frank on 16 December, 2016, 04:37:36 PMYes, as I said, 2138 (whistles insouciantly)
I'm with you.
Quote from: Link Prime on 16 December, 2016, 12:22:44 PM
Quote from: Smith on 16 December, 2016, 12:01:57 PM
There would also be smaller (multi)verses like Dreddverse,Millsverse,EdgingtonVerse;inside the 2000 multiverse.The names could use a bit of work,but you know what I meant. :)
"Millarworld"
Well,it is catchy.Thou IIRC,his 2000AD stories are a bit of an old shame for Millar.With good reason,If I may add.I could make an exception for Canon Fodder,but mostly for Westons art.
Quote from: Frank on 16 December, 2016, 01:02:56 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 16 December, 2016, 12:44:04 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 16 December, 2016, 12:31:46 PM
The only thing PJ has ever collaborated with anyone (other than his favourite sexbot) on is saving PJ's skin. Even then, his number 2 priority is always going to be doing away with this person he now feels has some sort of hold over him.
Pretty much any other Dredd villain I can think of would be out of their depth trying to collude with PJ - I don't think even Jura Edgar could have matched him in terms of elaborate schemes.
All good points. Nothing original to add, so I'll just reiterate that the main problem with the idea of Maybe collaborating with another villain isn't his narcisism or his treachery; it's that he's dead (http://i.imgur.com/DLpruKq.jpg?1).
Or is he? Something small occurred in the Judge Dredd story in the recent Christmas prog [spoiler]concerning Vienna's latest boyfriend that made me wonder..[/spoiler] but as it's not a Wagner scripted tale, likely it was just a throwaway gag.
How does the cloning function in the Dredd world? Would it be possible for someone to get their hands on, only as an example, Cal's DNA and produce a clone from the material?
Quote from: Sandman1 on 19 December, 2016, 02:13:46 PM
Would it be possible for someone to get their hands on, .....Cal's DNA and produce a clone from the material?
Funny you should mention that - check out Prog 2000's Dredd/Strontium Dog crossover. And the whole Judda storyline (Collected in Judge Dredd: Oz) related to this
Quote from: Dandontdare on 19 December, 2016, 02:50:28 PMFunny you should mention that - check out Prog 2000's Dredd/Strontium Dog crossover. And the whole Judda storyline (Collected in Judge Dredd: Oz) related to this.
I'm reading through The Life and Crimes of P.J. Maybe right now, so that has to wait. Is the cloning process a fairly common practice in the city or do you need to work for the Justice Department in order to use this equipment? Can someone with deep pockets buy this equipment?
Quote from: Sandman1 on 19 December, 2016, 10:49:27 PM
Is the cloning process a fairly common practice in the city or do you need to work for the Justice Department in order to use this equipment? Can someone with deep pockets buy this equipment?
Depends. John Wagner's done a couple of stories where very wealthy people (http://i.imgur.com/IxMOgEH.png) buy healthy, young bodies (http://i.imgur.com/wVAHJEH.png) to cheat death
[1]. If cloning technology was easily available, you'd think they'd just have a new body grown in a vat.
Al Ewing introduced a character called Deller (http://i.imgur.com/i7jiX1u.png)
[2], who Judge Giancarlo Exposito informs us is a result of a brief period where cheap cloning technology was commercially available for a short time in another city
(before the Dredd strip debuted).
[1] The Megacity Way Of Death (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=1111), by Wagner and Staples (prog 1111) and The Dead Ringer (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=493), by Wagner/Grant and Kitson, prog 493
[2] Served Cold (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=1718), Ewing and Higgins, prog 1718
Marshal Kazan had a clone Grandmother....probably not relevant. :-\ Z
and wasn't pop star Jonni Kiss duplicated hundreds of times by fans buying (then legal) cloning kits? I think that story also says that the practice was outlawed soon afterwards, so now it's just the Judges who have access to cloning tech.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 20 December, 2016, 10:17:58 AM
and wasn't pop star Jonni Kiss duplicated hundreds of times by fans buying (then legal) cloning kits? I think that story also says that the practice was outlawed soon afterwards, so now it's just the Judges who have access to cloning tech.
Wasn't Jonni Kiss a judge killer?
Jimmy Dean
Quote from: Dandontdare on 20 December, 2016, 10:17:58 AM
and wasn't pop star Jonni Kiss duplicated hundreds of times by fans buying (then legal) cloning kits? I think that story also says that the practice was outlawed soon afterwards, so now it's just the Judges who have access to cloning tech.
Do you know when they banned the cloning technology from the public?
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 20 December, 2016, 10:24:22 AM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 20 December, 2016, 10:17:58 AM
and wasn't pop star Jonni Kiss duplicated hundreds of times by fans buying (then legal) cloning kits? I think that story also says that the practice was outlawed soon afterwards, so now it's just the Judges who have access to cloning tech.
Wasn't Jonni Kiss a judge killer?
Quote from: Steve Green on 20 December, 2016, 10:39:21 AM
Jimmy Dean
Of course - and he was a movie star not a pop star
Quote from: Sandman1 on 20 December, 2016, 03:52:56 PM
Do you know when they banned the cloning technology from the public?
Well the clones were all around 18 and the story ran
mumble cough mumble years ago, so add the two together and deduct from current year. (I'm always crap with dates!)
Quote from: Dandontdare on 20 December, 2016, 04:04:33 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 20 December, 2016, 03:52:56 PM
Do you know when they banned the cloning technology from the public?
Well the clones were all around 18 and the story ran mumble cough mumble years ago, so add the two together and deduct from current year. (I'm always crap with dates!)
Haha! That Jimmy Dean (http://imgur.com/a/fliGf) story
[1] says Cal
(briefly) repealed the cloning legislation, so that would have been towards the end of the second year of the Dredd strip. That means the laws were suspended for a few months, around 38 years ago.
If some writer decides their story needs cloning to be legal in MC1, it'll be legal again. Those Deller and Jimmy Dean stories illustrate the kind of headaches it would cause, though.
[1] Megazine 3.39 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=megprofiles&choice=3.39), No More Jimmy Deans, by Wagner and Hairsine
Wonder how Pa and Junior Angel are getting on these days?
.
You cannot see this post because the user has blocked you
Quote from: Frank on 20 December, 2016, 09:46:00 PM
.
You cannot see this post because the user has blocked you
:lol:
Judge Morph/Morphy (?) was apparently a kind of father figure to Dredd. Where can I read about him?
Regarding the cloning process, is it Tek-Division who manages that part?
Main Morph story is the utterly essential Dredd tale Question of Judgement (Prog 387; reprinted Casefiles 8). He resurfaces in Tale of the Dead Man (Progs 662-8; reprinted Casefiles 14; not to be confused with The Dead Man), and then I think he appears tangentially in flashback a few times, such as Judgement (Progs 1523-28; dont know if it's reprinted yet), but the first two are the substantial ones.
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 December, 2016, 03:55:42 PM
... I think (Morph) appears tangentially in flashback a few times, such as Judgement (Progs 1523-28; dont know if it's reprinted yet)
If TordelBack will allow me to serve as Gareth Edwards to his JJ Abrams, there's another, older story that isn't really essential, but I'd like to tell you about it anyway.
First Of The Many (http://i.imgur.com/1fRPo5g.png)
[1] purports to be the story of Dredd's first arrest, while he was a rookie serving under the supervision of Morph.
[1] Prog 775, by Garth Ennis and Cliff Robinson (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=775), collected in Case Files 16
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 December, 2016, 03:55:42 PM
Main Morph story is the utterly essential Dredd tale Question of Judgement (Prog 387; reprinted Casefiles 8). He resurfaces in Tale of the Dead Man (Progs 662-8; reprinted Casefiles 14; not to be confused with The Dead Man), and then I think he appears tangentially in flashback a few times, such as Judgement (Progs 1523-28; dont know if it's reprinted yet), but the first two are the substantial ones.
Do you think Morph has influenced Dredd a great deal in his day-to-day handlings on the street?
Quote from: Sandman1 on 21 December, 2016, 10:27:50 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 December, 2016, 03:55:42 PM
Main Morph story is the utterly essential Dredd tale Question of Judgement (Prog 387; reprinted Casefiles 8). He resurfaces in Tale of the Dead Man (Progs 662-8; reprinted Casefiles 14; not to be confused with The Dead Man), and then I think he appears tangentially in flashback a few times, such as Judgement (Progs 1523-28; dont know if it's reprinted yet), but the first two are the substantial ones.
Do you think Morph has influenced Dredd a great deal in his day-to-day handlings on the street?
He wears tight boots because of Morphy's advice, to keep his mind sharp and away from other problems. Also the doubts he had that led to his resignation in the build-up to Necropolis were very much influenced by Morphy's words about when a judge should quit.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 21 December, 2016, 10:39:30 PMHe wears tight boots because of Morphy's advice, to keep his mind sharp and away from other problems. Also the doubts he had that led to his resignation in the build-up to Necropolis were very much influenced by Morphy's words about when a judge should quit.
Did Dredd say anything about why he came back to duty after his resignation?
To save the city from Judge Death!
Quote from: Dandontdare on 22 December, 2016, 03:24:40 PM
To save the city from Judge Death!
Yes, of course. Maybe I also wanted a more... philosophical reason for his change of mind.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 22 December, 2016, 10:55:31 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 22 December, 2016, 03:24:40 PM
To save the city from Judge Death!
Yes, of course. Maybe I also wanted a more... philosophical reason for his change of mind.
Dredd still has his doubts, especially after Chaos Day (http://imgur.com/a/Db4yf), but he's been indoctrinated to believe that he and the system he embodies are all that stand between the city and a worse fate.
He's probably kidding himself (https://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=43912.msg939027#msg939027), but he's running out of ways to do so.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 22 December, 2016, 10:55:31 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 22 December, 2016, 03:24:40 PM
To save the city from Judge Death!
Yes, of course. Maybe I also wanted a more... philosophical reason for his change of mind.
He's not the mosy philosophical character! :lol: He basically put aside all doubts to save the city in its hour of need; immediately after the crisis he strongarms the Department into holding a referendum about their continued future. When the citizens vote overwhelmingly in favour of keeping the Judges, this seems to put to rest most of his doubts for the forseeable future.
*most philosophical, that should have been! ::)
Dredd told the chief judge that resigning and walking away from his problems doesn't solve them. So whatever doubts he may still have, he's not going to resign over them again.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 16 December, 2016, 12:44:04 PM
I think the thing to remember about PJ is that he was very, very smart*. Smarter than Dredd, smarter than the Dark Judges, and smarter than anyone else who crossed his path. Pretty much any other Dredd villain I can think of would be out of their depth trying to collude with PJ - I don't think even Jura Edgar could have matched him in terms of elaborate schemes. It even felt a bit out of character when he failed to stop Judge Death breaking into his house.
Do you think PJ would cooperate if this other individual offered him something really great and could afterwards get rid of this person?
I've read that they send deceased people to recycling plants. Do they even send highly respected Judges there or are they buried in some special place?
I can't remember if it's really been said.
Fargo was kept in a tomb (although it turned out it was a fake)
Dredd had a 'funeral' although it was prior to Resyk appearing in the strip.
I don't imagine judges consider themselves 'special', it's the law not the individual that is important to them.
Citizens can avoid Resyk by paying a tax, and cemetery space was usually reserved for the wealthy.
Quote from: Steve Green on 28 December, 2016, 03:46:10 PMCitizens can avoid Resyk by paying a tax, and cemetery space was usually reserved for the wealthy.
So anyone can avoid the recycling by paying a tax, but is it a high taxation? Where do they put deceased people who pays the fee? I thought the city was a cramped place.
One option is that you can go to a taxidermist and have the corpse stuffed and mounted - head and shoulders - though having the full figure done is also possible.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 28 December, 2016, 10:41:14 PM
Where do they put deceased people who pays the fee? I thought the city was a cramped place.
Multi-storey cemeteries. And yes, it is a hefty fee, facts that give rise to one of the veey best Dredd stories, 'Bury My Knee at Wounded Heart'. You really should read some of this stuff, Sandman!
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 December, 2016, 11:40:57 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 28 December, 2016, 10:41:14 PM
Where do they put deceased people who pays the fee? I thought the city was a cramped place.
Multi-storey cemeteries. And yes, it is a hefty fee, facts that give rise to one of the veey best Dredd stories, 'Bury My Knee at Wounded Heart'. You really should read some of this stuff, Sandman!
Also seen in the recently-released collection Daily Dredds Volume Two (the story is Monster Maker).
jovus drokk, just READ THE BLOODY BOOKS!!!
Quote from: terryworld on 29 December, 2016, 03:07:02 AM
jovus drokk, just READ THE BLOODY BOOKS!!!
To be fair, there are a hell of a lot of Dredd-world books to read for a newcomer to get up to speed, and they cost money. I think what the OP is doing here is very reasonable - asking Dredd-related questions to people who like talking about Dredd, and getting pointers towards which books to start with in the process.
(For example, a newcomer wouldn't realise that
America was a far better introduction to Dredd's universe as we know it than
Case Files 1 without looking into things first.)
True - and this continues to be a really interesting thread. For myself I wasn't expressing any frustration, just encouraging Sandman to take the plunge with the better material.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 29 December, 2016, 12:09:24 PM
Quote from: terryworld on 29 December, 2016, 03:07:02 AM
jovus drokk, just READ THE BLOODY BOOKS!!!
To be fair, there are a hell of a lot of Dredd-world books to read for a newcomer to get up to speed, and they cost money. I think what the OP is doing here is very reasonable - asking Dredd-related questions to people who like talking about Dredd, and getting pointers towards which books to start with in the process.
(For example, a newcomer wouldn't realise that America was a far better introduction to Dredd's universe as we know it than Case Files 1 without looking into things first.)
I really love America, but I wouldn't say it's a good introduction - I may be biased by my experience, but I'd recommend whichever case files cover the period between the Day the Law Died and the Judge Child, and the year following the Apocalypse War.
Quote from: sheridan on 29 December, 2016, 01:25:17 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 29 December, 2016, 12:09:24 PM
Quote from: terryworld on 29 December, 2016, 03:07:02 AM
jovus drokk, just READ THE BLOODY BOOKS!!!
To be fair, there are a hell of a lot of Dredd-world books to read for a newcomer to get up to speed, and they cost money. I think what the OP is doing here is very reasonable - asking Dredd-related questions to people who like talking about Dredd, and getting pointers towards which books to start with in the process.
(For example, a newcomer wouldn't realise that America was a far better introduction to Dredd's universe as we know it than Case Files 1 without looking into things first.)
I really love America, but I wouldn't say it's a good introduction - I may be biased by my experience, but I'd recommend whichever case files cover the period between the Day the Law Died and the Judge Child, and the year following the Apocalypse War.
That would be case files 2.
Personally,I would suggest CF5 as a starting point(Block Mania and Apocalypse War).
Quote from: Smith on 29 December, 2016, 01:59:06 PM
Personally,I would suggest CF5 as a starting point(Block Mania and Apocalypse War).
s'right
Quote from: sheridan on 29 December, 2016, 01:25:17 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 29 December, 2016, 12:09:24 PM
a newcomer wouldn't realise that America was a far better introduction to Dredd's universe than Case Files 1
I really love America, but I wouldn't say it's a good introduction
It's a better introduction than
Case Files 1.
Anything's a better introduction than
Case Files 1.
Everybody loves
The Apocalypse War, but it's 35 years old, black and white, and Carlos Ezquerra is a marmite artist. Plus, epic destruction and Judge Death aren't really what 95% of the Dredd strip is about, or what makes it great.
If place-to-start recommendations were
actually about directing new readers towards stuff that will get them interested in reading more, we'd say
Tour Of Duty every time*. It's got all the fun, variety, and citizen involvement of the old stuff, but it's as well written as the best of Wagner's mature work.
Somebody who enjoyed
Case Files 5 then picked up a copy of the latest
2000ad to see if it interested them would find a very different Dredd strip with a very different look, tone, cast of characters, and creators.
* It's like a volume of the Case Files, with lots of different stories by different artists, but - unlike the Case Files - has a satisfying, overarching story.
Quote from: Frank on 29 December, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
If place-to-start recommendations were actually about directing new readers towards stuff that will get them interested in reading more, we'd say Tour Of Duty every time*. It's got all the fun, variety, and citizen involvement of the old stuff, but it's as well written as the best of Wagner's mature work.
This is an excellent point.
Quote from: Frank on 29 December, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 29 December, 2016, 01:25:17 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 29 December, 2016, 12:09:24 PM
a newcomer wouldn't realise that America was a far better introduction to Dredd's universe than Case Files 1
I really love America, but I wouldn't say it's a good introduction
It's a better introduction than Case Files 1. Anything's a better introduction than Case Files 1.
Everybody loves The Apocalypse War, but it's 35 years old, black and white, and Carlos Ezquerra is a marmite artist. Plus, epic destruction and Judge Death aren't really what 95% of the Dredd strip is about, or what makes it great.
If place-to-start recommendations were actually about directing new readers towards stuff that will get them interested in reading more, we'd say Tour Of Duty every time*. It's got all the fun, variety, and citizen involvement of the old stuff, but it's as well written as the best of Wagner's mature work.
Somebody who enjoyed Case Files 5 then picked up a copy of the latest 2000ad to see if it interested them would find a very different Dredd strip with a very different look, tone, cast of characters, and creators.
* It's like a volume of the Case Files, with lots of different stories by different artists, but - unlike the Case Files - has a satisfying, overarching story.
Thats also true.I guess if you really wanted to get up to speed fast,you could start with the recent-ish Block Judge(IDK if it was collected yet) and continue with the regular progs from there.
I'm looking for a story that hits Dredd where it really hurts, something that drives him to the brink of a total breakdown. Which story or stories matches that description?
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 December, 2016, 11:40:57 PMMulti-storey cemeteries. And yes, it is a hefty fee, facts that give rise to one of the veey best Dredd stories, 'Bury My Knee at Wounded Heart'. You really should read some of this stuff, Sandman!
You gave me a tip about a great story, so I will definitely read it in the near future.
Quote from: terryworld on 29 December, 2016, 03:07:02 AM
jovus drokk, just READ THE BLOODY BOOKS!!!
It's really hard to know where to look if it exists a jungle out there. And really, I don't have time to read all the stories.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 29 December, 2016, 03:52:38 PM
I'm looking for a story that hits Dredd where it really hurts, something that drives him to the brink of a total breakdown. Which story or stories matches that description?
Same answer as before: all the stories leading up to
Necropolis during Chief Judge Silver's term.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 December, 2016, 02:20:39 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 09 December, 2016, 02:13:34 PM
Where can I read about Silver's period of governing, especially during the events that inflicts Dredd with doubts?
Judge Dredd Case Files 9-15.
http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=reprint&page=gnprofiles&choice=casefiles9
http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=43912.210
Or you can go for the more recent
Titan storyline which is a different type of brutalisation of Dredd but it's not quite what you're looking for so read the other suggestion.
https://www.amazon.com/Judge-Dredd-Titan-Rob-Williams/dp/1781084416
Quote from: Sandman1 on 29 December, 2016, 03:52:38 PM
I'm looking for a story that hits Dredd where it really hurts, something that drives him to the brink of a total breakdown. Which story or stories matches that description?
It's really hard to know where to look if it exists a jungle out there. And really, I don't have time to read all the stories.
Well, I defended you a few posts ago about your second point here, which I totally understand.
But as for your question, I'm sorry, but jovus drokk, just read the bloody thread! Unless I'm much mistaken, Frank has explained to you in detail that this all happens in the lead-up to Necropolis.
Frank and a lot of other boarders, I mean.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 December, 2016, 04:03:47 PMSame answer as before: all the stories leading up to Necropolis during Chief Judge Silver's term.
Sure, but those events gave me the impression that it was all about his irresolution concerning the system, not something that hit him on a personal note. But I guess his sense of duty is like a lifelong passion for him.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 29 December, 2016, 05:05:30 PM
Sure, but those events gave me the impression that it was all about his irresolution concerning the system, not something that hit him on a personal note. But I guess his sense of duty is like a lifelong passion for him.
But that's entirely the point - Judge Dredd only challenges the system when something hits him personally. His ideology is, as I think Frank and others have said further up the thread, only ever shaken when he becomes sympathetic to an individual. Once that's happened, he's prone to making sweeping changes purely on the basis of those sympathies.
Quote from: Sandman1 on 29 December, 2016, 03:52:38 PM
I'm looking for a story that hits Dredd where it really hurts, something that drives him to the brink of a total breakdown. Which story or stories matches that description?
Already cited above, but 'Error of Judgement' (Prog 388; Casefiles 7, I think) is
the story that fits this brief, and one of the most important stories for understanding Dredd's character, although it may not look like much on the surface: Dredd intervenes on behalf of a child* to fund medical treatment, with tragic consequences. In a similar vein is 'Letter to Judge Dredd', also referenced above.
More recent (and more flashy) incidents that put Dredd at the end of his rope are 'Titan' (Progs 1862-9; eponymous Rebellion TPB), and indeed 'Chaos Day' (Progs 1787-8; collected in Day of Chaos: Endgame TPB). You can't actually
break Judge Dredd, but these stories give it one hell of a try.
*Interestingly Becky's injuries are a result of a chem pit, left over from the Apocalypse War. More guilt over past failures?
Quote from: Sandman1 on 29 December, 2016, 05:05:30 PMSure, but those events gave me the impression that it was all about his irresolution concerning the system, not something that hit him on a personal note.
No, it's
both: his concerns about the corruption in his own/Fargo's
Bloodline, and
the System, coalesce in the lead up to and including Necropolis. It's
all personal for Dredd.
There's nothing better than reading the actual stories -
Judge Dredd Case Files 9-15 - and it's better than forming abstract impressions second-hand.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 December, 2016, 04:03:47 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 29 December, 2016, 03:52:38 PM
I'm looking for a story that hits Dredd where it really hurts, something that drives him to the brink of a total breakdown. Which story or stories matches that description?
Same answer as before: all the stories leading up to Necropolis during Chief Judge Silver's term.
Judge Dredd Case Files 9-15 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=reprint&page=gnprofiles&choice=casefiles9).
Like the magic eightball, JOE SOAP is never wrong.
If six books is out of your price range, you could just buy Case Files 14 (plus
The Dead Man (http://dreddreviews.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/dead-man.html) standalone), which would fulfil your brief of showing Dredd at his lowest moment, but you'd miss out on the brilliant way all those different strands of story are pulled together and how Dredd decides to carry on, which really does take six books
(and as many years) to resolve.
Don't take the word of internet nobodies, here's what Dredd scholar Douglas Wolk has to say about Necropolis (http://dreddreviews.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/complete-case-files-14.html) itself. If you can spare the time, there's no better way to learn about the history of Judge Dredd than reading through Wolk's blog. It's a peerless study of John Wagner's development as a writer (
SPOILERS, obviously):
Quote"Necropolis" was the culmination of every major "Judge Dredd" plotline John Wagner had written over the past few years; it reads as if it had been intended to actually complete his run (more on that shortly). This volume--"Necropolis" and its lead-ins--is I think, the strongest so far in our trawl through the Dredd bibliography: smarter, bolder and more consistent than anything that led up to it, even the "Apocalypse War" sequence.
Back in the entry on Case Files 8, I was talking about how each of the Dredd epics somehow addresses the relationship between Dredd and the city. "Necropolis" is, effectively, the story of the city without Dredd: he appears only briefly before its final act, and everything up until then is the consequence of his leaving to be replaced by a version of himself who's technically better but not as attuned to the place and its history.
The city without Dredd (or, at least, without the promise of Dredd's return) is lost, almost immediately. Dredd's allegiance is to the law; Kraken's is to playing the part of a Judge. ("Like a Judge" is the key phrase in the way he keeps telling himself to act.)
You can also read "Necropolis" as a twisted variation on The Odyssey, with Kraken as its tormented Telemachus and Mega-City One as both Ithaca and Penelope. The slaughter of the possessed Judges is rather like Odysseus laying waste to the suitors--and by then Giant Jr. has revealed himself as a truer Telemachus than Kraken, the legitimate inheritor of both his actual father's legacy and Dredd's.
But the crucial moment of the story, for me, happens very early on, in chapter 3, as Kraken is reading Dredd's own copy of his "Comportment" and sees his handwritten annotation: "What about the big lie?" Wagner never directly follows up on that within this volume, but it echoes.
The big lie is the one behind the system itself: the claim that the Judges are entitled to power indefinitely, by whatever means necessary. Dredd knows it's a lie, and has always believed it anyway. The city loses him when he stops believing it for a little while, and it turns out that without the lie, the city is doomed.
Or maybe he's the one that's doomed. I have to wonder if Wagner thought he might kill Dredd off at some point --to be replaced by Kraken, or in some other way. By midway through "Necropolis," though, it's clear that Kraken's getting the chop--his failure is absolute--and, in fact, we see him with his missing hand in chapter 12, although it's not clear that that's what's happening from the way the image is framed.
I gather from Thrill-Power Overload and a few other sources that Wagner had been wanting to step away from the ongoing grind of Dredd for a while, although it turned out not to be that easy. It was another year after "Necropolis" before he officially handed the baton off to Garth Ennis with "The Devil You Know". In any case, Wagner seems to be thematically wrapping up his own run on Dredd in "Necropolis," bringing back a lot of the ideas and characters he'd created for one more appearance.
The "Tale of the Dead Man" sequence that opens this volume reintroduces a handful of inside-the-Judge-system concepts from earlier in the series: besides the Judda/"Bloodline" subplot and the democrats from the "Revolution" sequence, it touches on Dredd's "Comportment" (first mentioned way back in "The Making of a Judge"), and recalls Judge Minty (from Prog 147) and Judge Morphy from "A Question of Judgement."
Wagner's underscoring the idea that Judges have to be utterly loyal to each other and to the cause: the flash of insubordination that damns Kraken--"your time is over, old man"--contrasts with Dredd telling Morphy "you're not ready for the boneyard yet, sir." This story is absolutely crawling with daddy issues: Kraken's rejection of Dredd is a son's rejection of his father--but his actual father figure is Odell (who's willing to die for him), as Dredd's is Morphy (who does die in front of him).
One other note on "Tale of the Dead Man": the bit about how Dredd gets to keep his Lawmaster bike "as a special privilege" is covering up for the slip-up in "The Dead Man" where Dredd finds the ruins of his bike. (It's usually "the Long Walk," not "the Long Ride"!) Will Simpson's art on the first part of the sequence is, as usual, a little too delicate for Dredd; aside from one Megazine story, he didn't draw Dredd again until "The Chief Judge's Man" more than a decade later. As for Jeff Anderson's episodes... well, they don't look jarringly different from Simpson's.
And then Carlos Ezquerra shows up to start kicking ass for the rest of the book. "By Lethal Injection," the first of his long sequence here, is as perfectly arranged a piece of work as Wagner and Ezquerra have ever done.
The second page (above) is a great example of what they were up to, one fantastically well-executed image and storytelling shortcut after another: Odell framed in Kraken's doorway as a watercolored silhouette without black lines (echoed in the next chapter when Kraken wakes up), the shadow of Odell's cane, Kraken pulling on his boots and adjusting his belt for what he believes will be the last time, the little splotch of blue and red that sets off Odell's head where no background's really necessary (and the way the light makes the side of his head open up the border of the page), the yellow-lit sequence of Kraken and Odell walking toward the deputy principal's office (with their earlier conversation continuing over it to get there faster), the refrain of Kraken thinking of Odell's oldness (the same charge he'd leveled against Dredd)... it's entirely a talking-heads sequence, but Ezquerra makes it so foreboding and suspenseful that it's as thrilling as the chaos of "Necropolis" proper.
"By Lethal Injection" is also a master class in Wagner's strengths of narrative compression and shock-after-shock--there's some twist in the story on nearly every page, some of them whoa moments, especially Kraken grabbing the syringe.
And the punch line of the story, the revelation of the badge--the same image that provided cliffhangers in "The Shooting Match" and "The Dead Man"--is accompanied by dialogue that cuts off in mid-sentence for an additional aaah what's gonna happen next effect. It's clear what Kraken's about to say, but just think how much less dramatic it would be if he actually said it on panel.
Points to Ezquerra, too, for the way he draws Kraken as having a younger version not just of Dredd's face but of his body. And I absolutely love the way he uses color in "Necropolis": massive blurts of purples and greens and reds, the red of Dredd's helmet the only consistent tone, everything else shifting from one register to another like a bruise.
(Anderson's face is pale blue for most of the story, because why not.) I sometimes get frustrated by Ezquerra's airbrushed-looking computer coloring of recent years; the thick, juicy colors here are so much more blunt and satisfying.
"Necropolis" itself is an intense, frantically paced story, but it's also the most strangely structured of any of Wagner's Dredd epics this side of "The Judge Child Quest."
The way the back cover of this volume describes the plot is that "The Big Meg is under siege from the Dark Judges, Dredd has been exiled to the harsh wastelands of the Cursed Earth, and time is running out for the citizens he once swore to protect. With the body count rising and hope running out, will the Judges be able to turn back the tide of death?"
That's a straightforward way of describing what happens--but it's not actually what we see on the page. The first act of the story is actually about the decline and fall of Kraken: it's a psychological thriller in which the protagonist is gradually losing his mind, and Anderson and Agee are brought in as near-primary players. (We don't actually see Dredd at all for the first 11 chapters of the story.)
It's a little odd that this story brings in Kit Agee only to corrupt and dispatch her. Notably, though, she serves exactly the same function as Judge Corey did in Alan Grant's early Judge Anderson stories, and also seems to have picked up Anderson's habit of referring to the Chief Judge as "CJ." Corey was off the board at that point, having killed herself in "Leviathan's Farewell" about a year earlier; anybody happen to know if Agee was originally supposed to be Corey and got rewritten/redrawn sometime during the process of constructing "Necropolis"?
Act two starts in chapter 12 with the big symbolic splash (of the city overtaken by a smear of festering greenness), with two red splashes on it: one of the inset panels is about the escapees from the gates of the city, one about the death of Silver.
That's the meat of the story as it would ordinarily be described--but immediately after the Dark Judges show up (and we get that weird image of Kraken turning away from them and pumping his right, Lawgiver-less fist at us), Wagner elides over the effects of what they've been up to as hearsay. We don't even get a representative scene of the conflict, as we did with the "Dan Tanna Junction" sequence in "The Apocalypse War."
And the ambiguity of what's happened to Silver leaves the gaps that Wagner subsequently started filling in with "Theatre of Death" (and that Garth Ennis filled in some more with "Return of the King").
After that opening scene, we finally get back to Dredd (for the first time in four months), in a Cursed Earth setting that Wagner and Ezquerra are once again playing as a fairly straight Wild West scenario, then to McGruder--the redesign with the goatee is pretty brilliant--and the Benedict Arnold Citi-Def group. (How many British readers would even know who Benedict Arnold was?)
But once it's been established that Dredd and McGruder have teamed up, the story of them getting back to the city isn't where the action is, so after the scene-shift provided by the Dark Judges' morning newscast (Wagner can't resist parodying the tone of public service announcements, not that anyone would want him to resist it), we move on to the lengthy sequence with the cadets. (Led, of course, by young Giant, who's got some father issues of his own.)
The cadets give us another image of the city without Dredd-as-the-Law, and another image of children without parent figures; they also give Wagner an opportunity to show us a bunch of high-energy scenes while two of the story's protagonists are in a rowboat and two others are comatose.
The plot mechanics require that McGruder and Dredd meet up with Anderson and compare notes--but, of course, the setup of the story makes it very difficult for them to get to the same place, and the mobile judges are in a trip-through-the-underworld situation rather than one that permits much suspense or action. When they finally hit the Big Smelly, the full-page splash panel Ezquerra draws feels like a sigh of exhaustion rather than a revelation.
And, again, a big scene that would've taken a while to show is elided over: Anderson wakes up, and there's Dredd, who's met up with the cadets and somehow convinced them that he's not under the Dark Judges' influence, despite the way he looks now.
The third act is a short one, just the final seven chapters: Dredd and his little crew retake Control (and jeez, Giant's pretty cold-blooded about killing Judges), they get rid of the Sisters by killing Kit, they reinstate McGruder, they dispense with the Dark Judges, and at last we get that jaw-dropping confrontation between Dredd and Kraken, who once again faces death without flinching.
"Necropolis" has to have required even more careful timing than "The Apocalypse War": this time, Ezquerra drew 31 consecutive episodes in full color, all of which were published on time. (Remember, "The Apocalypse War" missed a week, and shifted to black-and-white only, near its end.)
And just before "Necropolis" ended, the Megazine launched, with Wagner and Ezquerra's "Al's Baby" in its first batch of issues. I'm guessing that at least some of "Al's Baby" had been drawn earlier (as I understand, it had been prepared for Toxic!, then rejected by Pat Mills, and the introductory page of the first episode was clearly grafted on after the fact--although Toxic! didn't launch until half a year after "Necropolis" ended). Still, that is one hell of a lot of work for a single artist.
So it's not entirely surprising that Ezquerra only drew a handful of covers over the course of "Necropolis," although one of them is among his best (that terrifying shot of Kraken preparing to "execute" himself). Ezquerra has all but disappeared from 2000 AD's covers over the second half of its run to date: believe it or not, he's only drawn six Dredd covers for the weekly since the end of "Necropolis," plus a couple more for the Megazine.
Maybe it's that his sensibility isn't quite in line with what post-1990 comic book covers are supposed to look like, but that's a shame: Ezquerra has more raw power than nearly any other contemporary cartoonist I can think of.
http://dreddreviews.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/complete-case-files-14.html
ok "sandman" i've got a question for you.
WHY do you want to know all this? i might be wrong, but the impression i get is that you have some kind of idea for creating your own thing based off judge dredd. after 21 pages, we are CLEARLY past the "hey guys, can you recommend a good JD book?" stage.
you are asking SPECIFIC questions about SPECIFIC things. what is it? video game? spec script? fan fic?
a few boarders seemed a bit p.o'd with me for saying "just read the bloody books", and mentioned that it cost money to buy them. you have said something along the lines of not having time to read them.
well sorry if it puts a few noses out of joint, but i suggest the best way to get a feel for dredd is to actually invest a bit of time and money into the books. spend some cash. take some time. it's not like we're talking about DC rebirth or marvel secret wars here, these are some of the best damn comic books of the last 40 years.
if peeps are wondering why i'm being so narky about this, it's because i like my dredd intellectual property coming from rebellion, and that's where i put my galactic groats.
Quote from: terryworld on 29 December, 2016, 06:09:02 PM
ok "sandman" i've got a question for you.
WHY do you want to know all this? i might be wrong, but the impression i get is that you have some kind of idea for creating your own thing based off judge dredd. after 21 pages, we are CLEARLY past the "hey guys, can you recommend a good JD book?" stage.
you are asking SPECIFIC questions about SPECIFIC things. what is it? video game? spec script? fan fic?
a few boarders seemed a bit p.o'd with me for saying "just read the bloody books", and mentioned that it cost money to buy them.
That was me, but I certainly wasn't pissed off with anyone. As for what sandman is doing with this information, he's already said it.
https://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=43912.msg936955#msg936955 (https://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=43912.msg936941#msg936941)
"I'm contemplating over a concept in an action role-playing game set in the Dredd universe."
I'll wait for Rebellion's version of that thanks.
Fair enough.
...though I will add that as long as he's not making money out of it, then I say more power to him. Judge Minty wasn't a Rebellion product, and nor was the Horned God fan-made mock-trailer, and both were excellent.
Quote from: terryworld on 29 December, 2016, 06:09:02 PM
a few boarders seemed a bit p.o'd with me ... well sorry if it puts a few noses out of joint, but ... if peeps are wondering why i'm being so narky about this ...
I speak for everyone here when I say Terryworld sounds like a lovely place; soft, fluffy, and straight from the tumble dryer.
It would be a shame if the luxuriant plumpness and violet petal scent of this downy paradise was ruined by carelessly trailing our belt in the bathroom puddle of baseless accusations.
Dressing gowns; not dressing downs.
Quote from: Greg M. on 29 December, 2016, 05:33:12 PM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 December, 2016, 05:58:50 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 29 December, 2016, 05:05:30 PM
... those events gave me the impression that it was all about his irresolution concerning the system, not something that hit him on a personal note. But I guess his sense of duty is like a lifelong passion for him
... it's both: his concerns about the corruption in his own/Fargo's Bloodline, and the System, coalesce in the lead up to and including Necropolis. It's all personal for Dredd
His ideology is ... shaken when he becomes sympathetic to an individual
It's easy to believe in the big lie when it applies to an undifferentiated crowd. It's more difficult to deceive yourself when you see how that lie applies to an
individual*.
Outwardly, Dredd projects belief in the lie at the centre of the system he embodies. Reading between the lines, he's afraid to take a day off or go to sleep, because that's when his dead dad and brother (http://i.imgur.com/NV3Poqd.png) force him to confront the truth he's spent his life running from.
Dredd's only purpose -
what he was literally born (cloned) to do - is enforce the law in MC1. The reason
Necropolis and
Tale Of The The Dead Man are so catastrophic for Dredd is that they strip him of his only reason to exist.
* Hopefully TordelBack won't mind if I cite the example he shared of a family member who opposes immigration because they are all spongeing layabouts ... but won't hear a bad word said about the only immigrant she knows personally, who she thinks of as an individual.
Quote from: terryworld on 29 December, 2016, 07:16:23 PM
"I'm contemplating over a concept in an action role-playing game set in the Dredd universe."
I'll wait for Rebellion's version of that thanks.
I, and probably everybody else, wouldn't do anything without Rebellion's approval. I'm considering contacting them after I have finished my studies in writing at the university. Dredd would certainly fit really well in that type of game, but nothing official has surfaced yet.
I agree that committing time and money into Dredd is well worth it - in the last 12 months I have purchased and read the first 18 case files, Deadman, America, and Cursed Earth Uncensored. I am loving every minute of it and will continue working my way through Dredd in the new year! Well worth the time and money.
However, I think its okay for Sandman to ask questions too. While it would benefit him to actually read the stories (they are so good!), there are so many knowledgeable people on this forum who enjoy talking about Judge Dredd and like responding to the questions (I always appreciate Franks thorough responses). This thread has been an interesting read and I have also learned a lot!
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 29 December, 2016, 08:28:53 PM
...though I will add that as long as he's not making money out of it, then I say more power to him. Judge Minty wasn't a Rebellion product, and nor was the Horned God fan-made mock-trailer, and both were excellent.
I would never break the copyright law in any way, so no one should throw around accusations. Anyone who doesn't like the questions can just stay away.
On the earlier topic of where to start,there is also the Mega City Masters line,which was meant to serve as an introduction to new audience/creator showcase.I dont really know how well it does that job,but its an option.
Quote from: Smith on 01 January, 2017, 08:09:39 PM
On the earlier topic of where to start,there is also the Mega City Masters line,which was meant to serve as an introduction to new audience/creator showcase.I dont really know how well it does that job,but its an option.
Volume 1 of MCM is out of print for a long time and it's not that affordable anymore.
Quote from: jacob g on 01 January, 2017, 08:34:24 PM
Quote from: Smith on 01 January, 2017, 08:09:39 PM
On the earlier topic of where to start,there is also the Mega City Masters line,which was meant to serve as an introduction to new audience/creator showcase.I dont really know how well it does that job,but its an option.
Volume 1 of MCM is out of print for a long time and it's not that affordable anymore.
I assumed as much,but thought it was worth mentioning anyway.
The use of flying vehicles, how common is it in the city? Can anybody use this way of transportation or is it reserved for emergency personnel (including Judges) and the transport of goods?
Quote from: Sandman1 on 03 January, 2017, 04:53:03 PM
The use of flying vehicles, how common is it in the city? Can anybody use this way of transportation or is it reserved for emergency personnel (including Judges) and the transport of goods?
Good God, man, have you read
any of the comics, or is this now just an elaborate troll?
Quote from: Sandman1 on 03 January, 2017, 04:53:03 PM
The use of flying vehicles, how common is it in the city? Can anybody use this way of transportation or is it reserved for emergency personnel (including Judges) and the transport of goods?
They're not restricted to just emergency personnel and transport, although wheeled or at least road-bound vehicles are more commonplace since the judges (with the exception of one story) ride around on wheeled bikes.
The Judges have H-Wagons, but it would make for a dull story if all the criminals just flew out of range of Dredd on his lawmaster.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 03 January, 2017, 05:01:48 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 03 January, 2017, 04:53:03 PM
The use of flying vehicles, how common is it in the city? Can anybody use this way of transportation or is it reserved for emergency personnel (including Judges) and the transport of goods?
Good God, man, have you read any of the comics, or is this now just an elaborate troll?
Makes you wonder,doesnt it?
Sandman,it was mentioned before,but may I recommend Dredd Reckoning blog?It should help you with the research.
Short answer: everyone who can afford it has access to hover vehicles/flivvers, batglider suits, skysurf boards, jetpacks etc. However the dominant form of transportation in MC-1 still appears to be the wheeled (or otherwise) car or Mopad; notable exception being the Zoom network, a sort of high-speed elevated monorail. It may be a money thing. Given that most citz live their entire lives in the one citiblock, and 90% are on Welf, it does make you wonder where they are all going.
Judges have access to hover ('H-') wagons, hoverbikes (Zippers) and a dedicated Flying Squad, including jetpack-equipped units.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 03 January, 2017, 05:01:48 PM
Quote from: Sandman1 on 03 January, 2017, 04:53:03 PM
The use of flying vehicles, how common is it in the city? Can anybody use this way of transportation or is it reserved for emergency personnel (including Judges) and the transport of goods?
Good God, man, have you read any of the comics, or is this now just an elaborate troll?
Thought crossed my mind twelve or thirteen times.
Quote from: TordelBack on 03 January, 2017, 05:55:28 PM
It may be a money thing. Given that most citz live their entire lives in the one citiblock, and 90% are on Welf, it does make you wonder where they are all going
Responses like this illustrate the value of the thread. As Shakespeare said (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_such_thing_as_a_stupid_question#There_are_no_stupid_questions), there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.
We all instinctively responded that Dredd quit before
Necropolis due to doubts about the system, but how many of us had a ready answer when Sandman asked how Dredd reconciled those doubts with returning to duty?
We'll see how smart we are when Sandman gets round to asking where all the money comes from if nobody works ...
Reading this thread is no substitute for reading the stories.
The grouchy feeling are beginning to create a thick fog in here, so I'm gonna cut it off.
Quote from: TordelBack on 03 January, 2017, 05:55:28 PM
Short answer: everyone who can afford it has access to hover vehicles/flivvers, batglider suits, skysurf boards, jetpacks etc. However the dominant form of transportation in MC-1 still appears to be the wheeled (or otherwise) car or Mopad; notable exception being the Zoom network, a sort of high-speed elevated monorail. It may be a money thing. Given that most citz live their entire lives in the one citiblock, and 90% are on Welf, it does make you wonder where they are all going.
Judges have access to hover ('H-') wagons, hoverbikes (Zippers) and a dedicated Flying Squad, including jetpack-equipped units.
Good to know.
Quote from: Richard on 03 January, 2017, 09:14:50 PM
Reading this thread is no substitute for reading the stories.
No one has claimed anything else.
Quote from: Frank on 03 January, 2017, 07:15:09 PMWe'll see how smart we are when Sandman gets round to asking where all the money comes from if nobody works ...
The devil is in the details.
Following this on and off: I have to say reading the comics would be an idea....in saying that however, the tread has raised some entertaining and informative discussions. Z
Quote from: Frank on 03 January, 2017, 07:15:09 PM
We'll see how smart we are when Sandman gets round to asking where all the money comes from if nobody works ...
Ooh, ooh, ooh...!
(https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-2uM3e_6MLfM%2FTwt-jZZ75gI%2FAAAAAAAAAeo%2F6IUBrL9KN28%2Fs1600%2Fhermione-300px-ps.jpg&sp=afe3ed61e74d7dce90c5e0672986dcbd)
:lol: Z
What I take from Sharky's strangled interjection:
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder492/500x/62885492.jpg)
Ha! Just laughed so loud I woke the dog up!
Don't know if this is the good place to ask questions about JD but two things are on my mind:
1)Does anybody know in which issue of Dredd there was some contestant show where people are beaten to the bloody pulp? I think it's one of the earlier stories (in b&w).
2)as i like to entertain myself occasionally by reading about particular movie behind-the-scenes, I found out that Under Siege was originally supposed to be named Dreadnought (as scripted). Aside thinking it's the coolest name ever for any military tool imho, Under Siege is basically a rip-off of Die Hard. My question is, regarding Die Hard popularity, is there any Dredd strip dedicated to fight against a group of baddies, limited to one location (obviously, not referring to 2012 film)?
Quote from: milstar on 16 August, 2021, 05:13:27 PM
Under Siege is basically a rip-off of Die Hard. My question is, regarding Die Hard popularity, is there any Dredd strip dedicated to fight against a group of baddies, limited to one location (obviously, not referring to 2012 film)?
1.
Dredd 2012 :P
2.
The Pit: Bongo War doesn't quite fit, as it's more an homage to
Assault on Precinct 133. Dredd against the Judda inside a hollowed out Uluru in
Oz. Not the key focus of the story, though.
4.
Crusade is like
Battle Royale on ice, with Judges!
5. That one about the Egyptian undead ...
Book of the Dead.
6. I tend to forget anything by Mark Millar two seconds after I've read it, so it's possible that the aptly titled "
Under Siege" from prog 880 is a rip off of
Under Siege (and therefore also of
Die Hard, and therefore also of
Harold Lloyd because of the thing with the fire hose) but I don't remember it at all so I can't really say.
There's been a number of Dredd stories revolving around game shows featuring death or violence (in black and white). They're usually illegal, conducted by pirate broadcasters Off the top of my head there's the following:
- You Bet Your Life
- The Game Show Show
- Block Out at the Crater Bowl (this one was legal!)
- The Booby Prize
Quote from: Funt Solo on 16 August, 2021, 05:31:42 PM
1. Dredd 2012 :P
2. The Pit: Bongo War doesn't quite fit, as it's more an homage to Assault on Precinct 13
3. Dredd against the Judda inside a hollowed out Uluru in Oz. Not the key focus of the story, though.
4. Crusade is like Battle Royale on ice, with Judges!
5. That one about the Egyptian undead ... Book of the Dead.
6. I tend to forget anything by Mark Millar two seconds after I've read it, so it's possible that the aptly titled "Under Siege" from prog 880 is a rip off of Under Siege (and therefore also of Die Hard, and therefore also of Harold Lloyd because of the thing with the fire hose) but I don't remember it at all so I can't really say.
Hm... Now that you've mentioned, Assault on Precinct 13 was the first (and the only) thing I recalled when I read...uh...Attack of the Gila Men or something like that. Believe it was CCF 05 or maybe it was CCF 11, because I read them at around the same time lol
If Millar ripped off Die Hard (and Harold Lloyd), that sounds like Mark Millar, so i could say he ripped off himself as well.
Edit: Attack of the Gila Men is actually
Assault on I-Block 4. Thx, almighty Google.
Gila Munja, and the story was Assault on I-Block 4.
There's also 'Escape from Kurt Russell', in which Dredd and his perp have to make their way down and out of a block fighting past baddies, and may or may not be a reference to the films of a successful 1980s director.*
You could argue that the Bolland classic 'Punks Rule' has this basic plot, although Dredd succeeds without having to actually brawl his way through tons of perps.
*It definitely is.