The Political Thread

[The Legendary Shark]

The Transylvanian Mafia?

[Leigh S]

The problem with selling off chunks of the NHS is that there will - for the sake of profit - be those who get shortchanged by the service provided.  The NHS needs to solve its problems with reform, not simply sell off difficult areas so they're no longer under the auspices of league tables and thus technically one in the 'win' column.

More likely it'll be the 'easy' bits that are sold off - the more routine and easily broken down into cost units and therefore the easiest to be made to turn a profit. How it works is you get a clerical, medical or industrial procedure that costs the NHS £45 to do. You work out a way to do it for £37 - using inferior materials, speeding it up or using less well trained staff, paid lower wages. You bill the NHS £45 for it, and you pocket £8. Voila.

Or it now costs 50 quid and the extra fiver goes into the pocket of the board of directors of the company, who also happens to include an MP or ex MP who voted for the changes in the first place....

[Robin Low]

It's just that I don't go along with this mantra that public servants always do the job better than the evil private sector.

And I don't go along with the mantra that the public sector, and the NHS in particular, does a worse job than the private sector. I suspect the reality is that both sectors have something to learn from the other, but ultimately they have fundamentally different goals and it would be dangerous to ignore that.

Robin, maybe the savings would come from the private sector firm not being over staffed and providing pensions schemes that they can afford.  Very different from the public sector pensions which have to be subsidised by private sector workers.

Do you really believe what you're saying?

Regards

Robin

[Old Tankie]

Do you really believe that public sector pensions are not in deficit and are not being propped up by private sector workers income taxes?

And do you really believe that there's no examples of overmanning in the Health Service?

Well.......I'll go to the foot of my stairs!!

[COMMANDO FORCES]

CF, where's that poll?  I feel the need to contribute!!

You need to join YouGov and they send polls all the time, I just answer the ones that give me points, as when I reach a certain amount I get a cheque for £50, just for answering a few questions now and then. I reckon I will get that dosh before summer 

By the way, many of the polls I answer revolve around current political stuff.

[Robin Low]

Do you really believe that public sector pensions are not in deficit and are not being propped up by private sector workers income taxes?

I don't actually know. What I do know is that the tabloids and the media in general make a lot of claims about pensions that aren't actually true. But if it was all it was cracked up to be, I doubt you'd see so many people leave.

I do know that at least some people who don't work in NHS imagine that salaries are higher than they actually are. My uncle, for example, who worked in banking, assumed that my mother, a senior nurse manager with decades of nursing experience and direct resposibility for hundreds of patients care and budgets in the millions, was earning a six-figure salary, when in reality she wasn't half-way to six-figures. As far as I'm concerned, she paid for and earnt her pension.

There's a big difference between perception and reality.

And do you really believe that there's no examples of overmanning in the Health Service?

What I'd like is evidence to that effect.

What I'm seeing in my small corner of the NHS is people not being replaced and the burden of their workload being put onto other people, together with increasing reliance on unqualified staff.

If there is over-staffing, then why, for example, has my other half had over 90 hours of time owing for a year now, and her sister 50? Keep in mind they also start half an hour early every day, which they don't record, the same way they don't record anything under 30s. They get back late every day, and lose evenings to paperwork on a weekly basis, and it's not unusual to lose a Sunday to it, too. None of that time is claimed back or paid for. The same goes for all the missed lunch hours.

Sure, I don't doubt you can find examples of all sorts of bad stuff in the NHS, but don't suggest to me it's a general truth and that you can't find the exact same problems in the private sector.


Regards

Robin

[Matt Timson]

It's just that I don't go along with this mantra that public servants always do the job better than the evil private sector.

And I don't go along with the mantra that the public sector, and the NHS in particular, does a worse job than the private sector. I suspect the reality is that both sectors have something to learn from the other, but ultimately they have fundamentally different goals and it would be dangerous to ignore that.

Robin, maybe the savings would come from the private sector firm not being over staffed and providing pensions schemes that they can afford.  Very different from the public sector pensions which have to be subsidised by private sector workers.

Do you really believe what you're saying?

Regards

Robin

To be fair, the pensions bit is largely true.  As it stands at the moment, over a quarter of your council tax goes to top up badly performing or simply mismanaged public sector pensions.  

I don't believe in gold plated pensions for anyone for any reason.  I often hear the argument that private sector employees are paid better in the first place, so the public sector are entitled to those pensions.  Sorry, but I'm calling bullshit on that.  Not everybody that works in the private sector is on a hefty salary.  They include factory workers, mechanics, refuse collectors- even humble illustrators like myself.  None of these people earn outrageous sums of money and their pensions aren't protected.

Now if somebody wants to legislate for everyone's pensions being protected, that I might be willing to get behind.

All that said, a deal is a deal, I suppose- and people who work in a job with a guaranteed pension at the end of it should get that pension- I just don't see that a bloke emptying bins should have to pay for it when his own pension isn't guaranteed at all.  

I don't really know what the answer is- but I think that it's worth making the point.

Going back to the main point- I agree that there's probably some middle ground to be had between public and private sector practices where the NHS is concerned.  I certainly don't want to see it privatised though.

[Robin Low]

To be fair, the pensions bit is largely true.  As it stands at the moment, over a quarter of your council tax goes to top up badly performing or simply mismanaged public sector pensions.  

NHS pensions are among the best, or so I'm told - I've not actually been in a position to make comparisons. However, my mother (for reasons beyond me) gets the Mail on Sunday, and I'm given to understand it has been making wildly exaggerated claims about NHS pensions. This sort of misinformation and propaganda tends to feed out and become accepted as fact, when, as usual, things are not as simple as they seem.

It might be useful if we all knew what we all think a fair wage and a fair pension actually is, in terms of what people actually do.

I don't believe in gold plated pensions for anyone for any reason.  I often hear the argument that private sector employees are paid better in the first place, so the public sector are entitled to those pensions.  Sorry, but I'm calling bullshit on that.  Not everybody that works in the private sector is on a hefty salary.  They include factory workers, mechanics, refuse collectors- even humble illustrators like myself.  None of these people earn outrageous sums of money and their pensions aren't protected.

Now if somebody wants to legislate for everyone's pensions being protected, that I might be willing to get behind.

Fine by me. I'd be willing to pay more tax to ensure a better state pension, too, same way I'd be willing to pay more tax to support public services and help clear the debt.

All that said, a deal is a deal, I suppose- and people who work in a job with a guaranteed pension at the end of it should get that pension- I just don't see that a bloke emptying bins should have to pay for it when his own pension isn't guaranteed at all.  

Slightly off the point...

When there were strikes in the north not so long ago, the news report said how much the binmen were getting. Apparently, they were earning more than me, a state registered Biomedical Scientist. I forget the figure, but it made me raise my eyebrows at the time.

This seemed rather unfair to me, but (A) just because someone said it on TV doesn't make it true or accurate, and (B) as I don't actually know what being a binman involves apart from the bit I see them doing, I don't feel in a position to make an issue of it.


Regards

Robin

[Matt Timson]

To be fair, the pensions bit is largely true.  As it stands at the moment, over a quarter of your council tax goes to top up badly performing or simply mismanaged public sector pensions.  

NHS pensions are among the best, or so I'm told - I've not actually been in a position to make comparisons. However, my mother (for reasons beyond me) gets the Mail on Sunday, and I'm given to understand it has been making wildly exaggerated claims about NHS pensions. This sort of misinformation and propaganda tends to feed out and become accepted as fact, when, as usual, things are not as simple as they seem.

It might be useful if we all knew what we all think a fair wage and a fair pension actually is, in terms of what people actually do.

I don't believe in gold plated pensions for anyone for any reason.  I often hear the argument that private sector employees are paid better in the first place, so the public sector are entitled to those pensions.  Sorry, but I'm calling bullshit on that.  Not everybody that works in the private sector is on a hefty salary.  They include factory workers, mechanics, refuse collectors- even humble illustrators like myself.  None of these people earn outrageous sums of money and their pensions aren't protected.

Now if somebody wants to legislate for everyone's pensions being protected, that I might be willing to get behind.

Fine by me. I'd be willing to pay more tax to ensure a better state pension, too, same way I'd be willing to pay more tax to support public services and help clear the debt.

All that said, a deal is a deal, I suppose- and people who work in a job with a guaranteed pension at the end of it should get that pension- I just don't see that a bloke emptying bins should have to pay for it when his own pension isn't guaranteed at all.  

Slightly off the point...

When there were strikes in the north not so long ago, the news report said how much the binmen were getting. Apparently, they were earning more than me, a state registered Biomedical Scientist. I forget the figure, but it made me raise my eyebrows at the time.

This seemed rather unfair to me, but (A) just because someone said it on TV doesn't make it true or accurate, and (B) as I don't actually know what being a binman involves apart from the bit I see them doing, I don't feel in a position to make an issue of it.


Regards

Robin

Quotes within quotes within quote make my poor brain hurt- so I'm just going to lump it all together at the bottom- sorry!

Yes, by and large, newspapers will quote outrageous figures, so I don't doubt what your mother is saying about pensions.  We also know a couple of doctors that don't earn anything like the 100k that's been reported.  I think reporters seek out the highest pay grade that they can and then apply it to everyone doing whatever job it is that they're saying is "grossly overpaid" that particular week.

I don't know what you earn, but the guy across the road is a binman and earns just over 300 quid a week.  He took that job because it paid more than his 'real' job (qualified butcher).

I guess it's hard to say what a fair wage/pension is really, isn't it?  I certainly can't think of anything off the top of my head.  For the most part, I tend not to begrudge anyone earning a lot of money- so long as they pay tax on it and don't earn an inflated salary at the expense of others.  I might not think that what they do is important, but if somebody is willing to pay them for whatever it is they're doing- more power to them.

It's a bit like companies that avoid tax.  I don't like the fact that they do it- but I understand why they do it.  The loophole is there- why wouldn't they take advantage of it?  Close the loopholes and they'll pay up.  Simples.

[Robin Low]

We also know a couple of doctors that don't earn anything like the 100k that's been reported.  

Yeah, the trouble with doctors is that the term 'doctors' covers an awful lot of ground. There are your fresh out of medical school types (no idea what they earn) and your consultants, at least some of whom are in the £70,000-100,000 bracket.

Also, keep in mind that doctors are outside the pay scheme that applies to the rest of the NHS workforce.

I think reporters seek out the highest pay grade that they can and then apply it to everyone doing whatever job it is that they're saying is "grossly overpaid" that particular week.

I'm pretty certain that's the case.

I don't know what you earn, but the guy across the road is a binman and earns just over 300 quid a week.  He took that job because it paid more than his 'real' job (qualified butcher).

Is that before or after tax? Either way, I appear to be better off. My take-home is currently £1420. I don't feel I have anything to grumble about, but then I don't have children and I don't run a car. I am really, really glad that I've never learnt to drive.

For everyone's general interest, here are the NHS pay scales:

http://www.rcn.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/233901/003303.pdf

I'm in Band 5 - this is the band for jobs that require state registration, which is coupled with specific training and a degree. Band 7 posts can require a Masters degree or other specialist knowledge, experience and responsibility. Band 8 jobs are entering management territory, but not necessarily suits and ties management.

The rungs in each band are annual increments. However, within these are a couple of 'gateways' - essentially you have to provide evidence of continual professional development before you can pass through the gateway (there's one after 12 months, and the other varies between Bands, but it's three or four rungs from the top). When you reach the top of a band, that's as far as you go, unless you apply for and get a new job on a higher band.


I really have no idea what other jobs pay, in or out of the public sector (although in my particular area things are much better than a decade ago when there was a real recruitment problem). My brother is a machinist and he earns more than me (but I don't think he ever stops working), and an old school friend who sells mobile kitchen units and equipment was on £30,000 about five or six years ago. I was a trainee at the time, and he laughed when he heard what I was earning back then.


Regards

Robin

[Leigh S]

The Mail is the master of subverting facts - I saw an article where they compared the top 100 civil servants pensions with teh average private sector pension... I imagine if theyd compared it with the top 100 earning private sector pensions it would have told a quite different story!

One reason I joined the public sector was I was planning ahead - I knew a decent pension was something worth taking a hit elsewhere for.  Over the years, its possible that private sector earnings have fallen behind (though god knows how when it took me 18 years to reach my pay band maximum!), so that the old bad wages now, good pension later doesnt apply so much - but really, my pension is not gold plated by any stretch, and you have to ask why, in a world where the gap between rich and poor has never been wider, we seem to not be able to offer what we could decades past, to both private and public sector workers.

to quote Bon Dylan:

"But rather get you down in the hole That he's in"

[Christov]

My Mum has a public sector pension, and the previous Government have been dipping into it and trimming it back for years. I think it rather cheeky that the Coalition has the nerve to lump her and many other hard working people into the hyperbolic 'gold plated public pension' group to justify them cutting it back further.

Also, merging income tax and National Insurance seems like a sneaky way of cutting NI and by default the NHS under the guise of 'look peasants, tax cuts! YAAAAAY'.

[Matt Timson]

We also know a couple of doctors that don't earn anything like the 100k that's been reported.  

Yeah, the trouble with doctors is that the term 'doctors' covers an awful lot of ground. There are your fresh out of medical school types (no idea what they earn) and your consultants, at least some of whom are in the £70,000-100,000 bracket.

Also, keep in mind that doctors are outside the pay scheme that applies to the rest of the NHS workforce.

I think reporters seek out the highest pay grade that they can and then apply it to everyone doing whatever job it is that they're saying is "grossly overpaid" that particular week.

I'm pretty certain that's the case.

I don't know what you earn, but the guy across the road is a binman and earns just over 300 quid a week.  He took that job because it paid more than his 'real' job (qualified butcher).

Is that before or after tax? Either way, I appear to be better off. My take-home is currently £1420. I don't feel I have anything to grumble about, but then I don't have children and I don't run a car. I am really, really glad that I've never learnt to drive.

For everyone's general interest, here are the NHS pay scales:

http://www.rcn.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/233901/003303.pdf

I'm in Band 5 - this is the band for jobs that require state registration, which is coupled with specific training and a degree. Band 7 posts can require a Masters degree or other specialist knowledge, experience and responsibility. Band 8 jobs are entering management territory, but not necessarily suits and ties management.

The rungs in each band are annual increments. However, within these are a couple of 'gateways' - essentially you have to provide evidence of continual professional development before you can pass through the gateway (there's one after 12 months, and the other varies between Bands, but it's three or four rungs from the top). When you reach the top of a band, that's as far as you go, unless you apply for and get a new job on a higher band.


I really have no idea what other jobs pay, in or out of the public sector (although in my particular area things are much better than a decade ago when there was a real recruitment problem). My brother is a machinist and he earns more than me (but I don't think he ever stops working), and an old school friend who sells mobile kitchen units and equipment was on £30,000 about five or six years ago. I was a trainee at the time, and he laughed when he heard what I was earning back then.


Regards

Robin

Yeah- we have another friend who has recently made the leap to consultant- his starting salary for that (NHS) is £70,000.  He moans about this, by the way- despite the fact that his private work will be more than double this figure!

On one hand, I do understand his argument- you have to work for a long time, putting in long and anti-social hours- plus exams that, again, seem to go on for years.  I've seen him have to accept postings that most of us would consider outrageous (basically, if you're offered something 400 miles away, you'd better accept it on the spot, or forget about ever being offered anything again), having to uproot the entire family at least three times.  Bear with me- this is all going somewhere.

Basically, contrast that £70,000 starting salary for consultants (he's a spinal surgeon, by the way) and the money paid to some people working in the finance sector.  I know accountants that earn more than that- which kind of leads me back to your question of how much is a fair wage for what people actually do?  Personally, I'd place greater value on a surgeon than on a number cruncher.

Anyway, on the other hand, whereas I see the point my surgeon friend is making- he's got absolutely no reason to complain about the money he's bringing in.

I think 300 quid was the binman's take home pay, by the way- but I wouldn't like to swear to it or anything.

[Matt Timson]

My Mum has a public sector pension, and the previous Government have been dipping into it and trimming it back for years. I think it rather cheeky that the Coalition has the nerve to lump her and many other hard working people into the hyperbolic 'gold plated public pension' group to justify them cutting it back further.

Also, merging income tax and National Insurance seems like a sneaky way of cutting NI and by default the NHS under the guise of 'look peasants, tax cuts! YAAAAAY'.

Just out of interest- how do you feel about private sector workers that have been left with nothing after their pensions collapsed?  The government is largely ignoring their plight.  Again, these aren't just city types- they're factory workers and the like- just regular pongos like you and me.  Well, you, anyway*...



*attention, reactionary nerds- this is a joke.  I repeat, this is a joke.

[Richmond Clements]

I think 300 quid was the binman's take home pay, by the way- but I wouldn't like to swear to it or anything.

I have preveiously work as a bin man, and didn't bring home this amount.
The driver of the vehicle might though- as an HGV driver is, rightly, paid more than a loader.

Personally, and I know no one was saying the opposite of this, I think that these guys could not be paid enough for what they do. It's a fucking hard and dirty (not in a good way) job, and you don't know real misery until you've trudged through a grey council estate on a pishy wet day behind a bin lorry...