Messages

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You do say that for expedience you rolled all of the stages into one and that is a problem if you want to minimise the chances of causing offence. People are unlikely to treat a conversation as a truncated argument where they simply have to refute the points in order without being explicitly instructed to do so. even given those instructions people are unlikely to respond as you would like.

I'm not arguing. with you I thought your were questioning why people would take offence. I realise that I may have misunderstood the original intention.

coming out of retirement as 'the guy who gives crits nobody asked for'

OK I read the original exchange, then Jim's list and wrote a long reply about arguing and fallacies then re-read everything and realised the answer didn't need that kind of wall of text.

Jim to answer your original question I think you moved all the way to step 4 in your first response without waiting for confirmation of steps 2 or 3. Your principles include a right to reply at every stage.

I think most offence is caused by tone and choice of language rather than argument logic or technique, although that can be a bit of an issue too.

Text only conversations have long been a issue as the reader brings far more to the interpretation of text than they do to in person interactions. informal text is even more interpretable as people will often not explain the how they intend something or in what context or from what source*

following on from interpretation 'am I right in thinking that you mean 'a' and if so do you think 'b' is a pretty reasonable way of trying to work out what someone said unless they read it as you said 'A' so you must think 'B' in which case they are going to read it as an accusation not a question. the best way to avoid this is to ask the question "am I right in thinking you mean 'a'?" and wait for confirmation. but who has time for that?


*Foot note for FRANK

Thanks! 

The Judge in the rain image is one that turned out surprisingly well. overall I quite happy with my take.

That Small Council meeting wasn't the next day after the massacre. I felt that more time had passed, and the initial shock and grief had worn off a bit.

Turning back to Steve Denton's argument about Grey Worm's actions, that is logical if we assume that Grey Worm's priority is to live. But the Unsullied are not afraid to die. I don't think it is consistent with what we know about the Unsullied to suppose that Grey Worm spared Jon Snow's life because he was frightened by, or even bothered about, what the consequences might be if he killed him. They were all prepared to die for their queen and liberator.

My argument never include Grey Worm being afraid to die or motivated by fear at all. He's conditioned to follow orders at the exclusion of all else, once his commander is removed he fails to make command decisions for reasons I payed out upthread. The bit about if he had killed John he would have been killed was a response to Leigh's suggestion that he should have killed John and sailed off with his head as a trophy.

I can see the psychological approach to Grey Worm, Steve, I just dont like what it does for the character or dramatically for the fizzle out "non-threat" of Jon and Tyrion being prisoners. If they ahd let the Unsullied sail out with Jon Snow's head on a spike, Ned style, that might have worked....

If the Grey Worm had killed John Snow he would in turn have been killed. he would be sailing no where. In the sense that cutting off a leader from the norths head would guarantee war executing him would indeed echo Ned Stark.

The Dothraki would fall apart as fighting force as they are tribes that were held together by the mother of dragons. the unsullied would stick with Grey Worm, but they are occupying a destroyed city, with no supplies, surrounded by a hostile continent and a army, with no chance of reinforcements. in short they would be screwed. Their best outcome if they were to kill John Snow would be for Grey Worm to die whist doing it. None of which improves things. the fact he walks back from being a monster and negotiates is the most positive outcome the character could hope for whist making any sense at all.

I guess thats a way of reading it, but I'm not sure that isnt a bad look for a show that has already drawn criticism of it's handling of ethnicity.  Grey Worm has had an arc, but to have him stripped of any agency in how this plays out is to side line any growth and empowerment he has shown and leave it to the white people make the decisions for him... it doesnt play well for me, however you frame it.  Having Grey Worm as the final breaker of the wheel would be a fitting end and mean the big decisions werent all in the hands of the caucasian cast.  Also I assume they went this way partly to justify Jon Snow not ascending to the throne, but how much better would it have been if he had outright refused it and said he was going beyond the wall where he would never be found - So in the final episode he would have finally grasped three nettles - killing Dany, saving the Realm from a final bloody conflict (in conjunction with Grey Worm,nnow Commander of the Forces, so the only two men in a position to do this) AND removing himself from the wheel.

Grey Worm would be a psychological mess. GoT world has no psychotherapy, he has pretty much put any personal growth he has had in the hands of two women, which isn't a bad thing, but now they are both dead. The fact he doesn't take bloody revenge on john despite the fact he was perfectly happy to kill on Danys orders could be read as him NOT being the freed slave bogie man white supremacists like to push. Hi Agency has only ever been choosing who to follow and being aloud a girlfriend. The show is guilty of that, it's guilty of being bad with people of colour but that doesn't mean his decisions are out of character, or even that he's a bad character.  it does call into question weather he was the right choice of character for the only prominent male person of colour in the show.

Do we really need scenes full of basil where every injured party explains exactly what they are feeling and why they are behaving in a certain way?

I wasn't thinking in terms of showing everyone's feelings about what happened, but rather showing Grey Worm and his colleagues reacting in a believable manner.

We are supposed to accept that the winners of a war will ask the people they have conquered for permission to execute their queen's assassin, including the assassin's adopted family. Then when the result is a lenient sentence, "go and live up north with people you might well have voluntarily gone to live with anyway," Grey Worm just goes along with that even though in the same episode we saw him killing prisoners who hadn't committed any crime at all except being on the losing side. It's completely out of character for him, for the rest of the Unsullied and for the Dothraki. And I don't think they would have cared about the Northerners, because as we saw in season 7 the Westerosi soldiers can't stand up to them, dragon or no dragon.

A moment's thought would have led the writers to a more believable resolution to that problem.

I am still unsure as to how there are any Dothraki left after they were all killed in episode 3 but that is by the by,

Grey Worm was raised a slave, conditioned into obedience and order following as well as the suppression of pain and emotional attachment. He doesn't execute John or Tiryan because there is no one to order him to do so. He's very receptive to the idea of a new leader when the idea is proposed and he grudgingly follows orders once a leader has been chosen because that's what he has been programmed from birth to do. I think it's entirely consistent with his character.

Cycle Of Violence


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Thank you all very much

Not an entry but what I would have done. maybe I'll use it for the RT fanzean

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I don't think I have posted this to the Advent Calendar before, even though that's what it was created for!
Merry Christmas!

What a lovely Groot! (and Rocket)

Congratulations Andy!