The Political Thread

[Tjm86]

Watching the footage it is a bit hard to work out where the wheels came off.  It looks like whoever decided to send in the 'troops' to defend the bandstand really didn't think that one through.  Mind you, the decision not to allow it to go ahead was probably unhelpful in the first place.

Once again we are seeing anger boiling over.  We had BLM last summer, along with various anti-lockdown / restriction protests.  You can argue all the stats you want as far as murder is concerned but that really misses the point, doesn't it?  The simple fact is that there is a lot of fear and anger out there.

Is it coming to a head?  Millions have lost jobs and livelihoods.  Opportunities seem few and far between.  We have a government who seems to think that saying "you should be grateful you still have a job" is a sensible response to those who have literally put their lives on the line over the past year in the face of the pandemic.

Politicians across the spectrum are recognising the mood music to a certain extent, calling for answers on this event.  Is that going to be enough to dampen the febrile state of this nation though?  I think comments about the direction of travel are very valid.  Not to mention very, very frightening.

[Funt Solo]

Mind you, the decision not to allow it to go ahead was probably unhelpful in the first place.

Yeah, that seems to be the decision that allowed it to go wrong. The police said no, the crowd arrived anyway, so then they clamped down (to enforce their earlier no), and that created unnecessary conflict.

There's actually quite a good breakdown on this BBC side article, although they've nothing yet on the fact that quite a large crowd is currently protesting outside Met HQ.

[I, Cosh]

Deliberate decision by the Met to play it like this. They can crack a few heads and claim the astounding doublethink of intervening to protect the public welfare. A goal which might be better served by not employing and empowering potential sex offenders. Or, indeed, allowing their officers to systematically trick women into sexual relationships over a period of years without repercussions.

Then there's tonight's ludicrous follow up: https://t.co/WJlVr18sfK

[The Legendary Shark]

So, what's to be done?

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

[Funt Solo]

Then there's tonight's ludicrous follow up: https://t.co/WJlVr18sfK

Ridiculous response-by-flowchart there from some drab commander who had to do something, anything when confronted by a crowd of peaceful protesters that they're not allowed to kettle. I can write a computer program to run the Met:

if(crowd){
   protectStatue();

   if(womenTalking){
      arrestViolently();
   }
}

[Tjm86]

Mind you, the decision not to allow it to go ahead was probably unhelpful in the first place.

Yeah, that seems to be the decision that allowed it to go wrong. The police said no, the crowd arrived anyway, so then they clamped down (to enforce their earlier no), and that created unnecessary conflict.

I feel like any enquiry into this is going to end up dodging some of the questions here.  I've seen reports of other police forces agreeing to allow these vigils to go forward for short periods of time to allow the expression of feeling evoked, allowing them to be controlled, and then ended calmly.

Cressida Dick's position is interesting.  Politicians across the spectrum, including the normally mute Home Secretary, are condemning the Met.  She is standing firm.  Now does that sound right?

The same goes with Patel's response.  Why so forthright?  Could it have anything to do with the bill going through the commons today?  The one that wants to place quite severe restrictions on protests and rights?

Much as it pains me, I do find myself pondering Spikd's position on the whole 'vigil' issue.  They take the usual provocative position that Sarah Everard's death has been politicised.  The usual collection of statistics are trotted out about gender, age and murder.

From what I can tell a lot of the complaints from Women's group surrounds  aggressively and unwelcome sexualised behaviour by males (cat-calling, comments, women made to feel uncomfortable while exercising, following etc ...) that is contributing to a general feeling of insecurity and disgust.  The argument, perfectly reasonable to my mind, is that what allegedly happened (and let's bear in mind that even though in all probability it is going to turn out as we suspect, it still needs to go through due process) is the inevitable result of allowing such predatorily sexualised behaviour to go on without being challenged.

So the rank hypocrisy of the likes of the Mail who is reporting on this whilst it's website is stuffed to the gills with articles about Amanda Holden's 'rather leggy displays' or the latest instagrammer / influencer / Towie / what the hell are you doing? ... and their revealing swimwear sends starkly contradictory messages.  As does the fact that not all of the pictures involved are taken through a telephoto lens but clearly with the cooperation of those involved.

I know that there is a risk of 'victim blaming' here (something that I am personally a little too familiar with ...), I would like to point out that this whole situation is opening up a major can of worms.  It raises questions about our attitude towards sex and sexuality as a whole though, what is and is not healthy, how to navigate interpersonal relationships, how to behave in public ...  Not to mention how we manage and 'police' it.

Nor do I think politicians across the spectrum are in the best position to remark / judge the matter.  There is, I suspect, a rather unsavoury seam to explore there.  Plenty of stones I suspect people of all political persuasions would prefer were left unturned, not least of all members of the Islington party.

No, we stand in a very dangerous place right now.  A government that believes itself impervious.  A media that pursues its own agenda.  Democratic institutions and processes directly attacked.  A scared population ...

[IndigoPrime]

Patel's response was presumably gamed out. It amounted to 'lessons learned'. There will be a report. She will say that lessons have been learned. Then this shit will happen again. Rinse and repeat.

As for behaviours, it's ingrained from year dot, and we all have to do what we can to change that. My kid's first public experience of sexism happened when she was about three, in a supermarket. An old fucker said she should smile for him. My wife was fuming, because the last thing you should be doing is trying to distract a little kid away from their parent; then adding the "smile for me" bullshit. Around the same time, we had a "boys will be boys" incident at play school, which infuriated me.

Issues continue at infant school. To the school's credit, the teachers there are trying to teach the children about important women through history. Mary Seacole and Mary Anning are recent examples. Some parents weren't familiar with these figures. A few of us recommended books, such as Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls. Probably inevitable responses followed from parents of boys, such as "we got the boy version of that" (thereby somewhat missing the point that boys are the 'default') and the 'hold me back' of "yeah, my boy wouldn't be interested in that stuff". Yes, he probably wouldn't. And that's the fucking point.

All of this continues as kids grow. Boys: don't cry. Don't do anything girly. Don't play with dolls (because heaven forbid you play act at being a parent). Stop doing gymnastics. Don't sew. Be tough, because that's 'manly'. Oh, and girls: be quiet. Don't be forthright in your opinions! Don't dress in a manner that will attract attention. And so on.

Everything is fucking broken and this is just part of it. That a woman was murdered by a man whose colleagues just trampled over a vigil for her really is the UK digging a hole when I thought it might finally have reached rock bottom. And now, today, we'll see the beginning of a bill that will effectively outlaw protest entirely in the UK.

That notion earlier in the thread of wondering how you'd feel as your country slowly shifts towards authoritarianism. Well, now we know. The UK is set to become the Hungary of northern Europe.

[sheridan]

Plenty of stones I suspect people of all political persuasions would prefer were left unturned, not least of all members of the Islington party.

What does this mean?  I used to live in Islington and haven't a clue what your'e talking about.

[Jim_Campbell]

That notion earlier in the thread of wondering how you'd feel as your country slowly shifts towards authoritarianism. Well, now we know. The UK is set to become the Hungary of northern Europe.

You're not the only person to have had this thought.

[Tjm86]

Plenty of stones I suspect people of all political persuasions would prefer were left unturned, not least of all members of the Islington party.

What does this mean?  I used to live in Islington and haven't a clue what your'e talking about.

https://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/crime/paedophile-derek-slade-left-half-estate-to-islington-politician-3830816

[Funt Solo]

As for behaviours, it's ingrained from year dot, and we all have to do what we can to change that. My kid's first public experience of sexism happened when she was about three, in a supermarket. An old fucker said she should smile for him. My wife was fuming, because the last thing you should be doing is trying to distract a little kid away from their parent; then adding the "smile for me" bullshit. Around the same time, we had a "boys will be boys" incident at play school, which infuriated me.

Lots of this sort of ingrained, low-level sexism with my daughter, as well - although much more when she was younger than she is now (8). Last time someone opened with (over the top of my daughter's head, ignoring her, to me) "Isn't she beautiful?!", I responded with  "And fiercely intelligent." This might seem like me being a dick, and maybe it is - but there's too much focus on looks (for girls) and not enough on depth.

We went to watch the girls' soccer the other day because she's suddenly developed an interest in being a goalie, and I was explaining that there was no girls' soccer when I grew up. She wanted to know why, and I told her that it was considered a boys sport and that for a lot of sports the general idea was that girls weren't tough enough. Anyway - she was spitting about that for a while. Entirely incredulous. Fierce. I like her. She's not taking any prisoners.

Funt: apologies, but I somehow did an edit rather than a reply. I hope this is correctly reverted—IP.

[Funt Solo]

Aging sexual perverts in fancy dress declare that gay marriage is a sin - that there Pope fella is dressed all in pink, as well. You couldn't make it up.

Of course, they have no choice but to take their stance against gay marriage because God told them to do it. In a celestial Zoom. "NO! IT IS SINFUL!" He intoned, dramatically. "Why is it sinful, oh Lord?", the Pope replied. "BECAUSE I WAS MADE UP BY SOME SMALL-MINDED DESERT TRIBE YEARS AGO AND THEY WERE PRETTY FUCKING CONSERVATIVE!" He explained, dramatically. "Ah, right-o, oh Lord. Now, moving onto the next item of business - how much gold do we own now?"...

[IndigoPrime]

there was no girls' soccer when I grew up

That's great to hear about your girl's team, and I hope your daughter continues to have fun with that. It wasn't so good at our school, sadly. Mini-IP was the only girl in football club (a year of 90 kids and 270 children in all). Credit to her: she stuck it out for an entire term, despite the people running the place not giving her any support whatsoever.

She'd sometimes come home and say no-one gave her the ball for the entire game. The boys were, naturally, being little shits and not being called on that. My wife at one point mentioned all this, quite sternly, to one of the people running it. Things improved for a week or two but then reverted. Later on, one more girl joined, but by then my kid didn't want anything to do with it. What's most disappointing is her aunt played pro-league football in her country. But in my town, inclusivity in that area is non-existent.

[Funt Solo]

Ah - sorry to hear that, IP. I know it's not as simple us US vs. UK on this one - or as simple as progressive / non-progressive. We've just lucked out and landed in an area that runs a lot of girls' soccer out of schools. They don't do girls' (american) football here, for example. I'm glad, though - that's a dangerous sport.