The Political Thread

[Funt Solo]

This is the kind of thing that, to me, highlights the basic problems with statism. It doesn't really matter what atrocities are occurring because, if one doesn't like it, all one has to do is put up with it for a few years and then vote for somebody else in the (forlorn) hope that they'll put things right. Just like Obama promised to do with Guantanamo Bay.

I find this a bit of a reductionist argument as it suggests that there's effectively no difference between Obama and Trump in terms of policy and (crucially) effect: but there is.  (It's true that Obama wanted to close Gitmo and found that he couldn't, but it doesn't follow that he was ineffective in all his policy aims.)

(You're also abusing the term "statism" by equating it with democracy.  One could summarize your point as "the problem with statism is that it's an ineffective democracy".  But not all states are democratic.)

[Funt Solo]

What really gets me is the fact the majority of these shitebags claim proudly to be Christians.

Say what you want about religion etc. but there is very little in their words, actions that would lead me to believe they have a single shred of Christian values, or humanity in them.

I don't see what Christian values have to do with being humane.  It surprises me not one jot that people who are prepared to commit evil acts also identify as being Christians (because it happens with such frequency).  Christianity is all about control (of our thoughts and actions), a lack of foresight (take no thought for the morrow) and is founded on the idea that blood sacrifice is a positive force.

There's been quite an effective marketing campaign that suggests that Christian values means being nice, but (as with most marketing campaigns) the thing you're being sold doesn't quite measure up.  Check the small print.

[Tjm86]

I don't see what Christian values have to do with being humane.  It surprises me not one jot that people who are prepared to commit evil acts also identify as being Christians (because it happens with such frequency).  Christianity is all about control (of our thoughts and actions), a lack of foresight (take no thought for the morrow) and is founded on the idea that blood sacrifice is a positive force.

There's been quite an effective marketing campaign that suggests that Christian values means being nice, but (as with most marketing campaigns) the thing you're being sold doesn't quite measure up.  Check the small print.

Hmm, there is a lot here to unpick.

Not surprising that individuals willing to commit evil acts identify as Christians?  Aye, fair point.  This is a problem that is definitely not unique to religion but that many religions have to deal with, that it can be used to justify the most grotesque acts.  The fact is though that such acts have been committed by religious adherents and committed atheists (Communist Russia and China).  It does seem that ultimately anyone who wants to commit atrocities against another can find some sort of justification.

Christianity is all about control.  I'm afraid you'll have to explain that one.  Catholicism has a rather unfortunate, and entirely justified, reputation for using guilt.  In fact there are a number of different branches of Christianity that tend to use the concept of 'sin' in a thoroughly unhealthy way.  If this is what you are referring to, I'm with you100%.  Unfortunately it does not fully square with what Christ preached but this is very much the problem that so many face.

No thought for the morrow?  That one you will definitely have to explain.  Please do.

Blood sacrifice is a positive force?  That one is probably the easiest of the lot.  Absolutely not.  The Levitical law was based on the concept of blood sacrifice.  Christ's point was that this was never going to work as you would spend your entire life sacrificing to try and make amends.  The key was that it was impossible but unnecessary.  Christ's death on the cross rendered the old Mosaic law irrelevant.  So it is not so much a case of positive force as it is redundancy.  There is no need to do anything to set things right as all debts are paid.

I think this is where I tend to part company with far too many 'Christians' who have issues with lifestyles that do not match their ideal.  Scripture is crystal clear on the fact that none of us are spotless.  Criticising anyone who lives a life that we feel uncomfortable about misses this point.  What is problematic though is that identity and behaviour have become conflated.  Or even that identity is so narrowly defined.  So rather than my being 'white, male, middle-class' being aspects of who I am, they potentially define me.  My sexual orientation becomes my whole being rather than part of who I am.  For those who have been persecuted for so long for this, it is easy to understand why it is so important.  To classify them as 'sinners' though is to miss so many fundamental points.  This is where Christians let themselves down so often to my mind.

Check the Small print?  Not so sure what you mean but to me this means the Sermon on the Mount.  That being the case I would agree 100%  Being 'nice' is not what Christians are called to.  Compassionate, understanding, etc, recognising that actually we are in no position to judge .... aye, there is a lot to it.

[Funt Solo]

Sorry (not much, though) to derail the politics thread but in for a penny.

I don't disagree that anyone is capable of evil, but there's an assumption made when someone who identifies as Christian does something evil that somehow that's a surprise.  My point would be that Christians have no special claim to being nicer than anyone else: and I'd even go so far as to say the reverse should be true given the teachings of Christianity (which is a broad brush, I'm aware).

So, to control.  "Whom God has joined together let no man put asunder".  So, God's in charge.  That's control.  It's especially unnerving as (because there's is no persuasive evidence at all for the existence of the God in question) it really means that humans who claim to be able to interpret the will of God are in control.  I say fuck 'em: they're no more in touch with God than I am with the Loch Ness monster.

The "no thought for the morrow" is partly from the Sermon ("Take therefore no thought for the morrow"), but also all the ideas of putting to one side things like saving up ("Gather not your riches up upon this earth") and defending yourself against aggressors ("Love your enemies" and "If a man strikes you on one cheek, turn the other cheek").  Very poor advice, really.  I would have thought prudently saving, considering the future carefully and not loving your enemies were all far more sensible.

You can't sensibly say that blood sacrifice isn't part of Christianity because of "Christ's death on the cross".  His death on the cross is the blood sacrifice I'm talking about.  Christianity is a belief in the benefits of blood sacrifice, by definition.  Unless somehow there are Christians floating about who think his death on the cross doesn't absolve us all of sin (itself a perverted notion that suggests we're all born wicked and need saved.)

I suppose if you cherry pick the nice bits of any religion (say, being compassionate), and put aside the bits you don't find nice (say, being homophobic) then how religious are you, really?  That seems like someone who has a moral compass and doesn't actually need religion to muddy things up.

[The Legendary Shark]

FS, you are correct - not all states are democratic. Fascist states employed concentration camps, communist states employed gulags and democratic states employ detention centres. Of course, democratic states' detention centres are less barbaric than concentration camps or gulags so at the very least we're moving in the right direction but this is hardly a ringing endorsement.

The fundamental problem with all states remains the same, and I've explored that problem here so often that it really doesn't need mentioning again.

Whether a state is executing human beings because of their beliefs or incarcerating human beings because they're foreign, evil though these practices are, these are merely symptoms of the same underlying flaw.

No matter our personal political views, I like to think that most people who contribute to this thread are against concentration camps, gulags and detention centres. In my view, we need to find a way of curbing the worst excesses of the state; things like persecution and starting wars. In democratic states, at least, governments are supposed to work in service of the people but this is demonstrably not the case. One of the bitter pills we have to swallow is that these detention centres are our fault. We allow our governments to do these things and, arguably worse, allow our taxes to be used to fund them - we are footing the bill for the infliction of all this misery. Just blaming the Trumps of this world for the excesses of governments and states, in my view, just doesn't cut it. We have to take responsibility and figure out how to bring our governments to heel.

I found your comment on another issue, "That's control. It's especially unnerving as (because there's is no persuasive evidence at
all for the existence of the God in question) it
really means that humans who claim to be able
to interpret the will of God are in control. I say
fuck 'em: they're no more in touch with God
than I am with the Loch Ness monster," to be particularly relevant. Simply replace the word "God" with the word "Government" and you and I would be in complete agreement. As I see it, government is as much a religion as Catholicism and is just as corrosive - moreso, in fact, as more people believe in the divine right of governments than the divine right of any particular religion.

In this aspect at least, I'm proud to declare myself a heretic.

[Tjm86]

I suppose if you cherry pick the nice bits of any religion (say, being compassionate), and put aside the bits you don't find nice (say, being homophobic) then how religious are you, really?  That seems like someone who has a moral compass and doesn't actually need religion to muddy things up.

Fair point.  Life is complex enough as is without adding to the mix.  I guess it comes back to the original point that there is a misconception that Christians are somehow nicer or more moral than others.  Ultimately there is nothing to back up such a claim and a hell of a lot of evidence to challenge it. 

[IndigoPrime]

As I age, I increasingly find religion a tough topic to grapple with. I have some residual belief, due to Christian imprinting during childhood. I doubt that will ever go away, and I have major problems with the English educational system imposing by law a daily act of worship. School should be secular. (I doubled down on this view after a friend's child – fortunately from a different school to where mini-IP goes – coming home in floods of tears, because "daddy is going to hell". Something a teacher had kindly pointed out, because daddy was not a believer.)

I also recall a while back, a prominent politician – possibly Warsi – said something along the lines of it didn't matter so much which religion you subscribed to, as long as you had religious faith. Which sounded to be like a combination of desperation and bullshit. Personally, I don't care what religion someone subscribes to, so long as it doesn't impact on anyone else.

And that's the problem, and which brings it back to the politics thread. Too often, religion does impact on laws, rules and regulations. Even the basics of trading are impacted by the argument god decided you should rest on a Sunday (although, apparently, not for all of the Sunday – only before 10 and after 4, or something, in England and Wales – and not at all if you're a chef or a firefighter or...). It's also too often used as a stick, with hypocrites like Rees-Mogg arguing that he's driven by his Catholicism when it suits him, and entirely ignoring it when it's not.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Gay pride march in Dublin today - fair play, we've come a long way. I'll go in and check it out if I finish work early.

Not so impressive: online comments about wanting a 'Straight Pride' march and 'preferential treatment' being given to the LGBTQ community.  Translation: 'Why can't we go back to the time when the poofs were treated like shit? I felt safe then.'

[The Legendary Shark]

I'm a kind of agnostic pantheist. With delusions of godhood and a vicious case of the Farmer's.

Seriously.

They're itching like a bastard.

[Funt Solo]

One of the bitter pills we have to swallow is that these detention centres are our fault.

Victim-blaming, that is.  The excesses of an unfriendly government are not (de facto) the fault of its people.  Your brush (as usual) is too broad.  You offer revolution as a solution, but don't bother to look at history to see how inconsistent a solution that is.

[The Legendary Shark]

I never have and never will offer revolution as a solution. As you so rightly suggest, revolutions never work - it's just replacing one set of bullies with another, probably even worse, set of bullies.

Armed revolution is the traditional ultimate weapon against the state but it doesn't work and generally causes more problems than it solves. I do not want that.

As I've said before, the only revolution worth having is a revolution of the mind. Stop believing that the state can do whatever it wants. That's the only political revolution I want, for enough people to stop believing in what is at core an illusion and to start believing in themselves, in their own intelligence, their own empathy, their own creativity and their own rights and responsibilities.

The moment one person believes he has superior rights and responsibilities to the rest of us, be he tyrant, president, or revolutionary, the vicious cycle continues. Their power over us is what I see as the main problem. If what I see is true then it opens up a world of problems and opportunities which can be debated until the cows come home.

Ultimately, the only revolution I want is for all of us to have the power to say "no" and have that respected. Everything else after that is negotiable because, when carried on enough lips, the word "no" is more powerful than any tyrant, or president, or revolutionary.

[Funt Solo]

We have to take responsibility and figure out how to bring our governments to heel.

I never have and never will offer revolution as a solution.

I cannot square your endless circle.

[sheridan]

I'm a kind of agnostic pantheist. With delusions of godhood and a vicious case of the Farmer's.

Uh... Farmer's?

[sheridan]

Even the basics of trading are impacted by the argument god decided you should rest on a Sunday (although, apparently, not for all of the Sunday – only before 10 and after 4, or something, in England and Wales – and not at all if you're a chef or a firefighter or...).

That's only if the shop is big.  If the shop is small enough then god doesn't care what hours you work, any day of the week.  Makes sense?

[Hawkmumbler]

I'm a kind of agnostic pantheist. With delusions of godhood and a vicious case of the Farmer's.

Uh... Farmer's?

"SO I HEAR YOU'RE A RACIST NOW FATHER?!"