The Political Thread

[I, Cosh]

And you can envisage no other options than the ones offered by your masters? How about locally controlled medical services, run by local administrators, doctors and nurses you know and trust, tailored to local requirements and funded by locally created, social money?

Your recent yen for localism is one I find baffling. Are you basically saying here that public health should be at the mercy of whether or not someone in the same street chose to study medicine instead of law? What if I don't know any doctors? What if I move to a new city and don't know who to trust? What about important national programmes like, say, vaccination? What about specialisation? What about the geographical imbalance of city vs country?

Doesn't get any better if you apply it to civic/political life either. Just means small-minded parochialism in my view.

[The Legendary Shark]

Here's the whole problem with our system boiled down to two posts - you expect me to sort it all out for you instead of creating your own solutions. This kind of lazy thinking, this abdication of your own intelligence and judgement to a handful of distant MPs, is what has led us to the mess we're in today. Voters are rabid about 'making their voices heard' but when I suggest a system where their voices actually count, they run a mile.
.
Local. NHS solutions might involve running local practices, dentists and small cottage or micro-hospitals yourselves, through your local elected councils. This does not preclude larger, regional or even national facilities which could quite easily be both independent and networked.
.
The same is true of local, regional or national banks.
.
If you don't know who to trust; find out! If nobody down your street wants to be a doctor, nurse or specialist - recruit from somewhere else - just as happens today.
.
Local management in no way effects regional, national or even global cooperation. What it does do is bring your own powers, freedoms and responsibilities to the fore.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Here's the whole problem with our system boiled down to two posts - you expect me to sort it all out for you instead of creating your own solutions.

I would like to formally state that I do not expect TLS to come up with any solutions.

However, I'm not at all sure that expecting him to do so is the whole problem with our political system.

[Colin YNWA]

Your recent yen for localism is one I find baffling...

Doesn't get any better if you apply it to civic/political life either. Just means small-minded parochialism in my view.

The thing is how far do you extend that logic. Nationally, as in our current nation, federally across Europe? I'm a big fan of coming together and more pertinently staying together. The thinking you recognise there appeals to so many who wish to split up into smaller groups that are easier to understand and where some perceive they are able to define themselves and there is less compromise as to who they are.

We're all getting to be a big sticky lumpy mess of humanity as technology refuses to allow us to hide behind either natural, or cartographic barriers, its seems a hard change for many to embrace...

...more importantly what the hell am I doing posting in the Political Thread, this only leads to pointless squabbling... I'm off to hide behind my self imposed barrier again.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Like the Shark, I'm something of an idealistic anarchist; and believe that most people in government are self-serving egotists with little regard for the good of their people.  But like I always say, democracy is choosing the best of the pricks, which is always better than choosing the worst of them. 
The UK is not my country, of course, but if it was up to me, I'd choose an NHS over no NHS every time.  And anyone who'd vote Tory because Labour supported the Iraq war really doesn't know their party.

[Jim_Campbell]

Here's the whole problem with our system boiled down to two posts - you expect me to sort it all out for you instead of creating your own solutions. This kind of lazy thinking, this abdication of your own intelligence and judgement to a handful of distant MPs, is what has led us to the mess we're in today. Voters are rabid about 'making their voices heard' but when I suggest a system where their voices actually count, they run a mile.

Your response is both patronising and pompous and does you no favours, Shark. You sit there, fantasising 'solutions' that will simply never happen, all the while criticising people who accept that, no matter how imperfect they find the current situation, the current situation is what they have to deal with and the only 'solutions' that matter a damn begin from recognising the real world.

Your 'getting punched' example is a perfect illustration of this: in one respect, you're right, it's an unappealing choice. You're being asked "Would you rather be shot in the head or shot in the foot?" What you seem incapable of recognising is that you're going to get shot no matter what, there are no other options.

The problem is that you think you're being clever when you reply "Aha! But I'd rather have cake!" ...except that there is no fucking cake. It's not on the menu. There's only getting shot. You can ask why there are no other options; you can assert (usually speciously) that there's no good reason why there aren't other options; but none of that changes the fact that you will still be shot in either the foot or the head and there's a chance —albeit a tenuous one— that actively opting for foot will mean that you avoid being shot in the head. Of course, you may only get shot in the foot if you do nothing, but only because the rest of us have made a concerted effort to engage with the process and push for the least bad option.

In the abstract, I can admire your determination to consider only the best (in your opinion) options, but the reality is that rest of us have to knuckle down and grapple our way to a decision that reflects the least bad option and that is neither an abdication of responsibility, nor lazy thinking.

Jim

[The Legendary Shark]

I didn't mean that expecting me to come up with solutions is the problem, or expecting others to come up with them is the problem either. Many people have solutions, both good and bad. My problem is with the blanket imposition of these solutions. I credit you all with the intelligence to choose which solutions you think are correct and to implement them for yourselves. You're not dumb idiots or mindless sheep, though you seem to have no problem supporting a system that treats you so, but thoughtful and intelligent beings. You don't need 'elected representatives' to do your thinking and imposition for you.
.
This is not to say that the whole system should be destroyed - there are many useful systems already in place (NHS, Civil Service, fire brigade, police, Highways Agency, etc., etc.) - but we should be electing people to manage these systems not control them. You control them and the people we elect should simply help to run them properly and nothing more. We should be electing true public servants but we are not - we (well, not me) are electing rulers.
.
If I were prime minister, I would issue one law, "cause loss, harm or damage to no-one; honour your lawful contracts, pay your lawful bills and be honest in your dealings,". I'd authorise social money creation then I'd abolish parliament, set up elections for managers of the various public services (including banking), and then step down and leave you all to it.
.
You don't need any leader to do more than that. You're all perfectly capable of leading and organising your own lives and communities. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar.

[I, Cosh]

Here's the whole problem with our system boiled down to two posts - you expect me to sort it all out for you instead of creating your own solutions. This kind of lazy thinking, this abdication of your own intelligence and judgement to a handful of distant MPs, is what has led us to the mess we're in today. Voters are rabid about 'making their voices heard' but when I suggest a system where their voices actually count, they run a mile.

In other words, you're a busy guy and don't have time to think about the details. I'm not really sure how it's my responsibility to think through the ramifications or possible solutions to your hair-brained pronouncements.

To rephrase this whole quoted paragraph for you: you're just in the line of dispensing koans from your mountaintop and we lucky disciples should spend the requisite time meditating upon the details until we are afforded the same blinding flash of enlightenment as you?


Edit: what Jim said.

[The Legendary Shark]

The question "would you rather be shot in the head or the foot" automatically assumes the agency offering that 'choice' has the moral right to do so and, by extension, suggests that certain people have the right to rule over others. In my view, they do not.
.
And if cake isn't on the menu presented by these agencies, bake your own.

[The Legendary Shark]

Cosh, no. In other words, I have no right to tell you how to live your life. Nor does anyone else.

[The Legendary Shark]

Cosh, no. In other words, I have no right to tell you how to live your life. Nor does anyone else.

[Banners]

So, I'm still undecided. I have just four candidates to choose from here in Crewe & Nantwich and Judge Dredd has told me to vote, so I can't abstain. To summarise my thoughts...

Tories. My tax has come down significantly, and the NHS has treated us well, countering many arguments against them. Business leaders and the markets seem to prefer them. But I don't like how they equate wealth with fairness, and there seems to be a general lack of compassion in their outlook – surely I'm not just voting from a selfish point of view, but for the betterment of the country (and the people in it) as a whole. The local candidate seems okay, and replied to a recent letter, albeit his response was fairly useless. George Osborne didn't reply to a letter. I've not seen any Tories campaigning which smacks of complacency, and there aren't any cool people urging me to vote Tory.

Labour. The idea of Ed Milliband and Ed Balls running the country is terrifying to me – I can't imagine either of them achieving anything in a professional capacity in the real world. I like Labour's old socialist values, but they're long gone and all I've heard this time is that they're about hard-working families and saving the NHS, but under the last Labour government my taxes were higher and they burdened the NHS with lots of PFI debts. The stock-market seems to have gone down as the chance of Labour getting a majority has increased, and I think they want to raise Corporation Tax, which as a small business, I find unacceptable already. I don't like the idea of a coalition with the SNP, although – admittedly – they've ruled that out. Labour are the only party who've actually come to our house and tried to talk to me, which I appreciate, although I confess I was a bit rude as the lady tried to accost me as I was struggling to get our crying baby out of the car. Lots of people I like and respect – including many creative types, musicians, people on here and the majority of people in my Twitter feed – are urging people to vote Labour. The local candidate is a doctor which has advantages, but he is a little underwhelming imho.

Lib Dems. I like Nick Clegg and think he has been unfairly scape-goated over Tuition Fees (it's not like the Lib Dems won last time, after all). I've voted Lib Dem before, but we're in what has according to polls become a Tory/Labour marginal, so I don't want to 'waste' my vote this time.

UKIP. I confess I kind of like Nigel Farage, even though I don't like or agree with what he says (if that makes sense!) But, no.

So, just four to choose from. No Green candidate, no Left Unity candidate (sadly), and no Independents, which I think is a huge shame as even if their policies aren't entirely convincing one can respect their drive and ambition (as long as they're not too extreme).

It's not like a favourite band I'm passionate about, where I want to wave a flag and run around telling everybody how cool they are. There's no candidate or party whose t-shirt I want to wear – there's no-one I actively want to vote for. But I don't want to not vote, nor spoil my paper. So, I've got 12 hours left to decide, but whichever way I choose, sadly, it will be with some reluctance.

Maybe next time I'll stand myself...(!)

[Jim_Campbell]

Labour. The idea of Ed Milliband and Ed Balls running the country is terrifying to me – I can't imagine either of them achieving anything in a professional capacity in the real world.

I feel broadly similar myself. However, I've boiled it down to NHS/No NHS. That's not scaremongering: that's a basic fact of political ideology. Healthcare will still cost billions and, while the service is being privatised piecemeal, those billions will disappear behind the cloak of 'commercial confidentiality' and we will have literally no idea how that money is being spent. In the end, 'NHS' will become state-backed insurance system competing in a health 'market' with private insurance schemes and all actual provision will be done by private companies.*

I felt no pride making my X this morning but, as I say, least bad option.

Cheers

Jim

*Except the expensive, unprofitable stuff, which the tax payer will probably still end up directly footing the bill for.

[JayzusB.Christ]

If I were prime minister, I would issue one law, "cause loss, harm or damage to no-one; honour your lawful contracts, pay your lawful bills and be honest in your dealings,". I'd authorise social money creation then I'd abolish parliament, set up elections for managers of the various public services (including banking), and then step down and leave you all to it.

That's the thing, though, Sharky - it's an 'if...would' situation, thus a hypothesis. I would do something very similar if I were prime minister.  But the reality is I'm not; I can't be; and thus I have to work with the tools I have, flawed though they may be.

There is a referendum on gay marriage coming up very soon in my country - do you vote in referendums (referenda?), Sharky?  I do not support my government; I have always voted against them; but I believe very strongly in equality and am not going to ignore this referendum because they put it in place.

The system is fucked, I'm not denying that, but in the short term, what's the alternative?  A coup? 

[Professor Bear]

I'm not terrified of Ed Milliband running the country, as all this negative propaganda has simply underlined that he's human and malleable when it comes to policy, as opposed to an intractable lizard-thing from space that wears the skin of a human but never quite convinces you of the illusion.

Also I couldn't wrap my head around why his Sad Keanu-ing his way through a sarnie was that big a deal until someone suggested that drawing attention to his eating pork was just a way to remind people of Ed's Jewish heritage, "which he is betraying" kind of thing.  I would normally consider this a bit of a stretch, but I genuinely wouldn't put anything past the Murdoch press these days.