The Political Thread

[JayzusB.Christ]

I am reminded of a Polish friend of mine - a very lovely woman but in some ways a bit narrow-minded (and in others not at all, as we shall see).

Her:  'I can't let my children see gay pride marches in Ireland. It's not normal.'
Me:  'What will you do if your son turns out to be gay?'
Her:  'He won't be. (Pause of a few seconds) I'd like to try it with another woman though. Two of us and my   husband. But I wouldn't ask him, he's too conservative.'

Poor chap is missing out on a two-girl threesome because his wife is too scared to ask him.

Anyway, to return to the original point (and I'm sorry, now it's me who's dragging out the debate):  I'd like to see a time when gay marriages in comics are not seen as 'pushing an agenda' but just something that fucking happens in the story.  I don't remember anybody up in arms about Treasure Steel and her wife Terry, after all.

[TordelBack]

My own personal politics are very much left directed.

That'll learn you to go about following the teachings of that Jesus bloke.  Always was something a bit red about that one.

[Frank]

I'm sure there would be a lot more love for Christians, even from atheists, if 21st century religiosity wouldn't keep aligning itself so determinedly with right-wing politics, which is the politics of, you know, hatred and greed. Religion is supposed to be about love, and yet so many followers of religion these days are constantly telling us religion is about low taxes and hegemony.

The specific ideology is irrelevant; all political, religious and economic belief systems attempt to construct a totalising explanation of the world and offer a set of rules to live by. There are plenty of reasonable people among the adherents of any ideology, but it doesn't surprise me that the few zealots in one group find common cause with those in another.

The only meaningful distinction is between the kind of people who want to tell other people what to do (and need to find a pretext which allows them to do so) and everyone else in the world.

[Ancient Otter]

So I guess these One Million Moms have isolated their children from cultural entertainment containing homosexual characters etc. So what will they do or say if any of their children come out?

[Roger Godpleton]

Why is your're avatar a dinosaur when your name is "otter"?

[Ancient Otter]

I got the avatar from the first forum I ever joined, back when Humanoids Publishing had one (it's from The Metabarons by Alexander Jodoworsky & Juan Gimenez) - I liked it so much I kept on other boards I joined, before I started posting under this user name, though I have been thinking getting a more suitable one for this board.... What's your avatar from, Mr. Godpleton?

[Roger Godpleton]

Chronos Carnival.

[Beaky Smoochies]

The Almighty also condemns polyester shirts.
(Leviticus 19:19)
'Nuff said.

That's a totally tired and frankly bunk attack line, those regulations were given by God to the Israelites in the wilderness to keep them on the straight and narrow until the Promised Land and the Messiah, they never applied to us Gentiles and don't even apply to the Jews anymore, nice try though...

[Roger Godpleton]

It is 2 o'clock in the morning.

[Beaky Smoochies]

Genuinely not sure if you are being serious or not but in case you are:
Hate the sin and love the sinner? Is gay orientation a sin?  Even if you define it as such-In your opinion have Christians ever fallen a little short of that your standard maybe done less well with the love the sinner bit? Maybe got wrapped up in a little good old fashioned plain prejudice and wrapped selective bits of the Bible around it to justify that all too human prejudice ? I think (respectfully) that they might have.  The message? One of grace and love. A recognition that we all sin and come short. A shaking of the head on my part when people get all smug because certain people perhaps sin differently than they do. If you are going to start with gays lets move on to see what the Bible says about people like the gluttonous etc Lets go the whole hog. And while we are it lets question why Jesus never once referred to gays but did have so much to say about justice and intolerance.  I'm not saying its not a difficult issue on which people can hold genuine and sincere differences-it plainly is. But lets approach it with brutal honesty.

I AM serious - do I look like I'm joking ? - and no, the orientation itself is not a sin, but acting on it most certainly is.  I fully admit we all fall short of God's perfect standard (I'm front of the line on that one), but we Christians are also called to rebuke immorality when we see it, and that whole 'grace and love' thing doesn't give you carte blanche to live as you please, the apostle Paul roundly condemned that viewpoint in Romans, yes, God is a god of grace and love, but He's also one of holiness and righteousness, and he does set a moral code of behavior to live by, that's not prejudice.  And the reason Jesus didn't mention homosexuals is because that behavior was already condemned in the Old Testament, and He was fulfilling the law not rewriting it.  I respect the fact you hold a different opinion on the matter, Prodigal dude, and I'm just being honest about mine, I simply cannot call that which an abomination in the eyes of God something other than what it is, I fear the judgement of God over the mockery of men any day, but that's just me...

[Roger Godpleton]

I fear the judgement of God over the mockery of men any day, but that's just me...

Must... resist... easier than Cyberleader.

[TordelBack]

Retracted.

[Frank]

The Almighty also condemns polyester shirts.(Leviticus 19:19)'Nuff said.

That's a totally tired and frankly bunk attack line, those regulations were given by God to the Israelites in the wilderness to keep them on the straight and narrow until the Promised Land and the Messiah, they never applied to us Gentiles and don't even apply to the Jews anymore, nice try though...

So His Old Testament instructions to the anal-loving, shellfish guzzling, freshly shaven tribes of the Old Testament were conditional and were never meant to be applied in a wider context? I'm sure you see there's an analogy to be drawn with His pronouncements on homosexuality too.

I can't remember Him ever publishing a retraction or a clarification of those guidelines, so presumably it was humans who decided that particular part of the handbook was context-specific and no longer had any relevance to how we live our lives today. If you respect their authority to produce new interpretations of revealed truth, why not Rowan Williams and the Anglican Church's reading of The Amighty's comments on homosexuality?

[The Prodigal]

Genuinely not sure if you are being serious or not but in case you are:
Hate the sin and love the sinner? Is gay orientation a sin?  Even if you define it as such-In your opinion have Christians ever fallen a little short of that your standard maybe done less well with the love the sinner bit? Maybe got wrapped up in a little good old fashioned plain prejudice and wrapped selective bits of the Bible around it to justify that all too human prejudice ? I think (respectfully) that they might have.  The message? One of grace and love. A recognition that we all sin and come short. A shaking of the head on my part when people get all smug because certain people perhaps sin differently than they do. If you are going to start with gays lets move on to see what the Bible says about people like the gluttonous etc Lets go the whole hog. And while we are it lets question why Jesus never once referred to gays but did have so much to say about justice and intolerance.  I'm not saying its not a difficult issue on which people can hold genuine and sincere differences-it plainly is. But lets approach it with brutal honesty.

I AM serious - do I look like I'm joking ? - and no, the orientation itself is not a sin, but acting on it most certainly is.  I fully admit we all fall short of God's perfect standard (I'm front of the line on that one), but we Christians are also called to rebuke immorality when we see it, and that whole 'grace and love' thing doesn't give you carte blanche to live as you please, the apostle Paul roundly condemned that viewpoint in Romans, yes, God is a god of grace and love, but He's also one of holiness and righteousness, and he does set a moral code of behavior to live by, that's not prejudice.  And the reason Jesus didn't mention homosexuals is because that behavior was already condemned in the Old Testament, and He was fulfilling the law not rewriting it.  I respect the fact you hold a different opinion on the matter, Prodigal dude, and I'm just being honest about mine, I simply cannot call that which an abomination in the eyes of God something other than what it is, I fear the judgement of God over the mockery of men any day, but that's just me...

Fair do's mate. I totally agree grace and love are no blank cheque to do what you or anyone else wants.

I suppose I was arguing that if you are going to go fundamentalist then do it right across the range. What about everything else that is condemned/regulated in the OT? Where's the protests there? If we follow the OT should we kill them? I would also reiterate that I strongly suspect that we God botherers have often wrapped good old human prejudice in a God flag. The sin/sinner distinction? Not sure we (including me) do that as well as we might in this instance. Even if I regard homosexual practice as wrong I am still to show that gay man or woman all the grace and love that I can muster.

I am now anxious I am turning this thread into a theology thread.

[JOE SOAP]

I AM serious - do I look like I'm joking ? - and no, the orientation itself is not a sin, but acting on it most certainly is.  I fully admit we all fall short of God's perfect standard (I'm front of the line on that one), but we Christians are also called to rebuke immorality when we see it, and that whole 'grace and love' thing doesn't give you carte blanche to live as you please

So you agree with this then?

Lev. 20:13:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."