What Defines a Dredd Epic?

[abelardsnazz]

Talking about PJ I would love a complete collection of his misadventures.

The Rebellion paperback is going for hugely elevated prices, but is available digitally from the 2000AD shop, and the Hachette version just came up on Amazon at a reasonable price.

[Tjm86]

You've misundertood me. These are both one-off stories in the sense that the narrative starts on page 1 of part 1. There are no foreshadowing stories about the plague in Mega-City Two before Prog 61. There weren't any stories about Judge Feyy or PSI Division's prophecies running through 1979's Progs - we didn't even know there was a PSI Division until 6 weeks earlier.

I think we must have different ideas about a 'one-off story' is.  I would argue that the Apocalypse War or City of the Damned would fit together as such whereas CES or JCQ are, as with the Lunar City stories, a series of interconnected stories within a specific context.  Or at least they are to me.

I get that we are arguing about what defines an 'epic' here for sure.  Ultimately a lot of these have come to be viewed as such more as a result of their overarching context than any specific structure per-se, it seems. 

Perhaps the more appropriate question should be "who" defines a Dredd epic?

[broodblik]

This is how I see it:

1 part story one shot
2 to 4 part story multi-part
5 to 6 parts mini-series
7 to 11 parts maxi-series
12 to 20 parts epic
Above 21 parts mega-epic

Well you do get the epics and mega-epics that rather consist out of multiple-parts rather than one big continuous storyline.

[The Corinthian]

I think we must have different ideas about a 'one-off story' is.  I would argue that the Apocalypse War or City of the Damned would fit together as such whereas CES or JCQ are, as with the Lunar City stories, a series of interconnected stories within a specific context.  Or at least they are to me.

No one would deny that The Cursed Earth or The Judge Child are very episodic, but even the most tangential part is still presented as an episode of a big overarching story with the title and chapter number on every part. Whereas Lunar 1 is a series of mostly unrelated episodes in a single venue with no suggestion of an overarching story.

(AIUI Lunar 1 happened because Wagner had got bored of doing "cop stories in the future" and tried to refit Dredd as "western stories on the moon", whereas for all its meandering The Cursed Earth has a definite beginning, middle and end.)

[AlexF]

I'm on board with Broodblik's breakdown by episode count, and I think 21 episodes or longer is a reasonable place to define the Mega-Epic. Which, as Colin points out, is listed pretty firmly as just:

Robot Wars; The Cursed Earth; The Day the Law Died; Judge Child; Apocalypse War; City of the Damned; Oz; Necropolis; Judgement Day; Purgatory / Inferno; Wilderlands; The Pit; Doomsday; Origins, Tour of Duty and Day of Chaos
(and yes, Robot Wars IS this weird exception - and I'd be sorely tempted to add End of Days and maybe Every Empire Falls and Titan/Enceladus).

I think length absolutely has to be part of what makes an epic, EPIC. Just ask Gilgamesh or Odysseus, and don't even get me started on those pesky Pandavas and Kauravas. It's not just about the number of episodes, it's also about the story slowly unfolding over weeks and months (although of course those add up to the same thing).

I think there's also a lot to be said for 'it's an epic if Tharg tells you there's an new Dredd epic coming' and bangs on about it a lot. Which is why Inferno definintely counts, but arguably Mandroid doesn't (although I'm pretty sure Tharg did suggest that was an exciting and major new storyline - but I doubt he used the phrase 'Mega Epic'.)

Let's be clear, when I chose my list I deliberately set rules that allowed me to include a bunch of long Dredds that people don't consider to be true epics so I'd have some surprises on the blog! It did end up feeling weird to include the likes of Raptaur and Die Laughing, but not to include Goodnight Kiss or the Graveyard Shift. Rules control the fun!

[Magnetica]

I think there's also a lot to be said for 'it's an epic if Tharg tells you there's an new Dredd epic coming' and bangs on about it a lot.

This is definitely a thing as far as I am concerned; back in the day you knew if the current story was an epic. The best example for me is Prog 156: " A Great New Judge Dredd Epic Start Inside".

Obviously that doesn't always work; with Trifecta it would have ruined it.

In my comments, when I say "I don't consider that to be an epic", a lot of it is to do with this.

[broodblik]

I can add something to the list for any story to be treated as an epic it must have profound effect on either the Judges or the City. If we look at something like "Mandroid" both these series ran for 12 episodes.  I do not see these as epics although they were great Dredd stories, they do not fulfil the above criteria. This type of stories we can bundle under maxi-series the folder. 

[AlexF]

Oooh, but just to be annoying, you could suggest that The Cursed Earth and The Judge Child have very little impact on either the Judges (as a whole) and certainly not on the city. The Judge Child in particular ends up as one of those shaggy dog stories where Dredd could've avoided a load of unpleasantness (and expense, as pointed out in the epilogue) if he'd just stayed at home...

[TordelBack]

The Judge Child in particular ends up as one of those shaggy dog stories where Dredd could've avoided a load of unpleasantness (and expense, as pointed out in the epilogue) if he'd just stayed at home...

Ah, but if he had just left Krysler in the hands of the Angels, he'd never have known the boy was evil. Who knows how the events of Feyy's prophecy would have played out had an adult Judge Child arrived back, possibly in psychic control of the Angels, and welcomed as a putative saviour. At least in Destiny's Angels and at the end of City of the Damned they knew where to find and stop Krysler/the Mutant

[milstar]

I guess that for Dredd epic, the scope has to be big enough, in addition to being multi-part arc, like Oz or Origins. Day the Law Died is epic to me, nevertheless. Or Cursed Earth. I guess the feeling must be such that is akin to watching Lawrence of Arabia or watching any big budgeted historical movie. Also, for Dredd epic, it has to have quite of an impact on subsequent stories.

[radiator]

To paraphrase some guy, I couldn't define exactly what constitutes a Dredd mega epic, but I know a one when I see one. Loosely, it would generally have to be something that ran in the prog rather than the Megazine and usually something that ran for 20 episodes or more - the sweet spot being 25/26 episodes (though there are clearly some exceptions to these definitions).

For my money the definitive Dredd mega epics are:

The Cursed Earth
The Day the Law Died/Judge Cal saga
The Judge Child Quest*
Block Mania/The Apocalypse War
Oz
Necropolis
Judgement Day
Mechanismo/Wilderlands
The Pit
The Hunting Party
The Doomsday Scenario
Total War
Origins
Tour Of Duty
Day of Chaos

*I would count City of the Damned as a follow up to/continuation of the Judge Child storyline as it isn't really substantial enough to constitute as an epic in its own right.

A 10-12 parter like Sin City would count as a 'mini epic', and while America is an iconic Dredd series, it's not an epic. but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

[Funt Solo]

Interesting to hear folks' take on this - and I'd clumsily congealed the idea of an epic and a mega-epic together in my mind when I posed the question, so it's been an education.

The Grindstone Cowboys arc (what do other people call this?) feels epic - it comes in at twenty-two episodes, so a little shy of the magic 26 some people are considering - but the city gets taken over, it spans the globe and it involves a team required to take down the threat. It feelsepic.

Just in case I'm not being clear, I'm talking about the prog/meg crossover by Michael Carroll from 2016:

The Grindstone Cowboys 1973-1977
Dust to Dust M371-M373
The Lion's Den 1978-1985
Reclamation 1978-1985
From the Ashes M374

[Dark Jimbo]

The Grindstone Cowboys arc (what do other people call this?)...

Collected in trade as Every Empire Falls.

[Richard]

The Robot Wars is too short to be called an "epic," it's just a normal-length story, and there's no reason to include it just because it happens to be the first multi-episode story.

Counting only stories with at least 20 episodes gets you a respectable list.

[judgeurko]

Not End of Days