The Political Thread

[Modern Panther]

If anyone thinks that "the left" us to blame because it only seeks to shut down political debate, I'd suggest they watch PM's questions. 

People on both sides seek to shut down debate, "the left" because they regard some opinions as unacceptable and "the right" because they regard some opinions as weak.  For every "leftist" complaining about mansplaining and triggers, there's someone on the far right complaining about SJWs and feminazis.  The far right's argument is an easier sell, because it's easier to have uncontrolled rage in 140 characters than explain the social history that led us here.

[Theblazeuk]

We give the Far Right a platform because we think you should let people say their piece in public, and be opposed. However the Far Right would not allow their opponents the same privilege. They're not interested in what other people have to say, and that's always going to be to their strength, no matter how reprehensible and contradictory that might be to our own values.

And on a related note, it is sickening how 'balance' always means bring in the Far Right, but pretend anything to the left of Labour doesn't exist.

[JayzusB.Christ]

The reality of his situation seems to be ever-so-slightly sinking in for the Great Cunt, who has already made serious modifications to some of his most prominent pre-election promises (including Obamacare, gay marriage and the fucking wall).


It's not much, but it's a miniscule glimmer of hope in a massive,  unholy global mess.

[Modern Panther]

Convicted liar and Trump Buddy, Conrad Black on the news there, explaining to us simple leftists  that Trump supporters all knew that The Wall was only ever a metaphor. 

Apparently "I will build a wall.  A great wall.  Mark my words." Means "I will enforce reasonable border controls, using existing laws and budgets".

Here's an interesting essay on the rise of fascism, written in 1995, by Umberto Eco, who grew up in fascist Italy.  The parallels between the 20s and 30s and what is happening now is terrifying.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

"Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism."

[Hawkmumbler]

Seem's the far right media continues to make up lies about Jezza, long past any of their readership believing them anyway...

[TordelBack]

How did we get to this point though?  Where media, politicians and even presidential candidates can just tell any old lie that suits them, and not even blush when caught out, and there are apparently no consequences whatsoever? 

I know we all used to believe the joke "how do you know when a politician is lying", but wasn't there a time when they had to be clever about it, because getting caught in a lie would screw with their election chances in the short term at least.  Now, any suited shit can spout any old shite, and no-one cares that they are provably lying.  How does any hypothetical kind of opposition based on truth, and its inevitable unpleasant complexities and compromises, have a hope of succeeding? If facts don't matter, how do you construct any kind of counter?

My first reaction on seeing Trump's victory on a phone screen, after a brief moment of hope that it was a poor joke, was to reflect that I really was the 'libtard' I'd been called so often.  How stupid must we be?

[JayzusB.Christ]

I personally believe Obama was fully determined to shut down Guantanamo; but eventually realised it was a task beyond even the POTUS.

The Cunt-Elect and the Brexit-mongers, though - shameless liars.  Because, as TB says, in these dark times, they can be.

[Muon]

I think lying has become easier because of the proliferation of information over the internet. It sounds ironic but maybe there's so much information people end up seeking the little corners of the internet that reinforce their own worldview, like their Facebook news feeds. They spend so much time cocooned in their own echo chambers they don't even notice when lies are exposed. And when people's lies are called out, that fact is quickly drowned out by a torrent of new information. The traditional media make it worse by reporting every word of people like Trump as if it's gospel in a desperate attempt to survive.

[JOE SOAP]

The Cunt-Elect and the Brexit-mongers, though - shameless liars.  Because, as TB says, in these dark times, they can be.

They all lie (sometimes intentionally/sometimes not) but of course some do it more than others:

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/bernie-s/

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

[TordelBack]

Worse than I thought , really.  According to that 70% of Trump utterances fall between. 'Mostly False' and 'Pants on Fire', versus Clinton's 26%. Even allowing for Politifact bias, those are depressing numbers.

[Frank]

Even allowing for Politifact bias, those are depressing numbers

The BBC's More Or Less concluded the bias of Politifact and Factcheck.org was more evident in the number of checks performed than in their assessment of the candidates' statements.

Despite Clinton declaring her candidacy before Trump and serving as Secretary of State for most of the time that organisation has existed - through Wikileaks, through Benghazi, through South Ossetia - Politifact has checked 100 more instances of Trump logorrhoea than pronouncements by Grandma Nixon [1].


[1] Trump just can't stop talking, and if he's ever uttered a factual statement it's because someone has stuck it on a teleprompter and warned him not to go off script, but Clinton's practiced schtick- like that of most politicians - doesn't necessarily make interns reach for Wikipedia. Those kind of distortions and evasions are usually sort of comforting.

[The Legendary Shark]

Human beings lie. Sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly; sometimes for selfish reasons and sometimes not. We've all done it and we'll all do it again. Lying isn't the problem, we all know how to deal with liars and lies.

The problem stems from giving one liar more power than any other. A lie with power behind it is a dangerous thing, as is power with a lie behind it. To mend this situation we need to either get rid of the lies or get rid of the power. As power tends to encourage lies for its own maintenance, it's power that should be removed or, at the very least, severely curtailed.

[Jim_Campbell]

Work & Pensions Secretary thinks insecure, underpaid employment is exciting.

Just wait until we get rid of all those pesky employment rights the EU made us give the workforce, eh? Imagine how much more... exciting it will be trying to keep a roof over your head and food on the table.

[Jim_Campbell]

Jeremy Hunt thinks the NHS should look to the US healthcare system for solutions to its problems. The BMA notes that US healthcare costs twice as much as the NHS per capita, delivers lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality and, obviously, leaves many millions without any kind of care at all, because they can't afford it.

Meanwhile, Tory MP Edward Leigh wants Parliament to discuss charging NHS patients for services and junior Health Minister Phillip Dunne refuses to rule it out.

How can this not be a red line for just about anyone who lives in this country? Are we really so apathetic that we can sleepwalk into this? People have been flagging up various measures, beginning with Lansley's Health & Social Care Bill, as quiet, covert steps towards the end of the NHS as we know it* and those warnings have been dismissed as lefty scaremongering** but the Tories are breaking cover now, trying to make the unthinkable, thinkable.


*I'm not saying that the NHS couldn't use reforms, that there aren't any number of things that desperately need fixing, but in respect of the general principle: universal healthcare free at the point of use funded from general taxation? That's something worth defending.

**Despite Jeremy Hunt, the Health Secretary having, y'know, actually co-authored a book calling for the privatisation of the NHS.

[JamesC]

They were talking about the 'Gig Economy' on the radio earlier.
The main advocate (not sure who he was as I missed the beginning) seemed to have one single argument for the benefits of being paid on a job by job basis with no security, holiday pay, sick pay etc. His argument was that if you're a window cleaner or a black cab driver you're in the same situation and 'it's been that way for years'.
It all sounds like horseshit to me.
For a start, if you run your own business or are self employed you can still get a mortgage based on your historic and projected earnings. Good luck trying to get a mortgage based on the number of Deliveroo jobs you've done!