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Author Topic: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside  (Read 55526 times)

Funt Solo

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #780 on: 21 August, 2021, 08:06:44 PM »
I don't disagree with that idea in theory (and, in fact, have been trying to achieve that goal) - but as this is a public forum I find it difficult to allow what I see as disinformation to pass by unchallenged.

(I would also argue your point that I'm "incapable of adjusting frequencies", but that seems like a side discussion. On the contrary, I do take on board new information. My opinions on the transgender vs. feminism debate would serve as a good example. My thoughts going in were not my thoughts going out. I wouldn't want you to think that I'm entrenched in my opinions. Persuasive arguments are capable of persuading me.)
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Hawkmumbler

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #781 on: 21 August, 2021, 08:12:46 PM »
I do find it concerning someone who prides themselves on their anti-government and anti-corporate nature is all to willing to champion the self same lobbyist lean upon to down play their mishandling of this global crisis.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #782 on: 21 August, 2021, 09:05:17 PM »

Hawkie, I'm more interested in the information presented than the person presenting it. Certainly the background of the person can add context but to simply dismiss everything a person says because of who or what they are, or who or what other people think of the person, is the definition of ad hominem.


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Funt Solo

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #783 on: 21 August, 2021, 09:20:27 PM »
In this case, it's not ad hominem to bring up that the person making the argument has a history of (human-induced) climate denial, because it adds valid, relevant context to their possible motivations in creating a document that deliberately pushes one avenue of research and avoids others.

Other posters have pointed out that this suggests bad faith. Nobody is saying his breath smells, or even that his research is necessarily incorrect: just that he has a historic agenda which this (self-admittedly) narrow-focus research supports.

Also, I can't see anyone who has done this: "simply dismiss everything a person says", in the context of this current mini-debate around the research article you posted.

---

To shift points a little: are you going to deny that you would rather believe research that points to climate change being mostly natural over research that points to climate change being human-induced? Do you believe CO2 emissions are a major or minor factor in the current climate crisis?

I think I know the answers to both those questions, and I think I knew the answers before you posted the research from Connolly. Am I wrong?
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Mister Pops

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #784 on: 22 August, 2021, 12:36:45 AM »

Hawkie, I'm more interested in the information presented than the person presenting it. Certainly the background of the person can add context but to simply dismiss everything a person says because of who or what they are, or who or what other people think of the person, is the definition of ad hominem.

From the now locked covid thread

Quote from: The Legendary Shark
So, trust the science - yes, absolutely. Trust the scientist? Depends on the scientist, doesn't it?

It's good to see you've changed your policy. What made you change your mind?




« Last Edit: 22 August, 2021, 12:40:32 AM by Mister Pops »
You may quote me on that.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #785 on: 22 August, 2021, 07:46:39 AM »

The two paragraphs preceding that comment provide the context in which that statement was made, which itself was made in reply to a false claim.


« Last Edit: 22 August, 2021, 07:50:40 AM by The Legendary Shark »
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IndigoPrime

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #786 on: 22 August, 2021, 10:27:06 AM »
In this case, it's not ad hominem to bring up that the person making the argument has a history of (human-induced) climate denial, because it adds valid, relevant context to their possible motivations
Exactly. If Andrew Wakefield issued a paper urging huge caution regarding COVID vaccines, is that something that should be taken on its own merits, or in context on the basis of the man’s past? Same thing.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #787 on: 22 August, 2021, 12:34:58 PM »

The paper should be taken on its own merits, its contents assessed and checked independently by others. That's what scientific papers are for. If we took your approach, IP, we'd dismiss everything Isaac Newton wrote because of his belief in alchemy. His mathematical work checked out but his alchemical work didn't.

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Jim_Campbell

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #788 on: 22 August, 2021, 12:41:43 PM »
If we took your approach, IP, we'd dismiss everything Isaac Newton wrote because of his belief in alchemy. His mathematical work checked out but his alchemical work didn't.

Nonsense. That's very much not what IP just said. He's not suggesting that we dismiss a paper based on some unrelated beliefs the author holds regarding some other field, but that — to take the Wakefield example — previous form in the subject under discussion can be very relevant to the amount of weight we should give a piece of 'research'. In the case of Wakefield, the amount of weight that should be given to his opinions on vaccination is zero.
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Funt Solo

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #789 on: 22 August, 2021, 02:35:16 PM »
Not that two wrongs make a right, but this is an odd stance from someone that’s written off the BBC. Shouldn’t you be taking each article on it’s own merits?
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The Legendary Shark

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #790 on: 22 August, 2021, 05:23:41 PM »
If we took your approach, IP, we'd dismiss everything Isaac Newton wrote because of his belief in alchemy. His mathematical work checked out but his alchemical work didn't.

Nonsense. That's very much not what IP just said. He's not suggesting that we dismiss a paper based on some unrelated beliefs the author holds regarding some other field, but that — to take the Wakefield example — previous form in the subject under discussion can be very relevant to the amount of weight we should give a piece of 'research'. In the case of Wakefield, the amount of weight that should be given to his opinions on vaccination is zero.

Like that Darwin moron? You know, the muppet who keeps banging on about how we all descended from monkeys when everyone knows that God made us...

(And no - I'm not comparing Wakefield to Newton or Darwin, just to be clear. I'm talking about assessing information and ideas, not people.)

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Jim_Campbell

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #791 on: 22 August, 2021, 05:35:09 PM »
Like that Darwin moron? You know, the muppet who keeps banging on about how we all descended from monkeys when everyone knows that God made us...

This is idiotic trolling and, frankly, beneath you.
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M.I.K.

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #792 on: 22 August, 2021, 05:46:28 PM »
Like that Darwin moron? You know, the muppet who keeps banging on about how we all descended from monkeys when everyone knows that God made us...

(And no - I'm not comparing Wakefield to Newton or Darwin, just to be clear. I'm talking about assessing information and ideas, not people.)

Exactly what point do you think you are making?

Funt Solo

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #793 on: 22 August, 2021, 05:59:39 PM »
I *think* it's that Connolly (possibly the only "scientist" on the planet that doesn't believe in CO2 being a greenhouse gas) is a genius like Darwin, but that anyone who doesn't realize that is a 19th century fundamental believer in an Abrahamic god.

Pretty sure that was the point being made there.
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The Legendary Shark

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Re: It's a bit warm/ wet/ cold outside
« Reply #794 on: 22 August, 2021, 07:00:05 PM »
Like that Darwin moron? You know, the muppet who keeps banging on about how we all descended from monkeys when everyone knows that God made us...

This is idiotic trolling and, frankly, beneath you.

You seemed to require a more apt example of someone sticking to their guns on a certain subject, as dismissing a person's ideas because of different ideas on another subject wasn't apposite. Thus, Darwin. From the pov of one of his comedy-archetype critics. Of which you are not one. Nor am I, as it goes. Think of it as a little sketch drawn to make a point lightly instead of bluntly pointing out that you are actually defending ad hominem (which is, as you know, finding a way - any way - of dismissing the author in order to dismiss the information).

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Dive a little deeper - all is not as it seems. "Cyber pandemic" on the way. Devices to be "quarantined" (disconnected).