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Science is Drokking Fantastic Because...

Started by The Legendary Shark, 21 July, 2011, 11:05:57 PM

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JOE SOAP

#375
Quote from: pops1983 on 21 October, 2012, 12:07:14 AM
Pioneering scientists turn fresh air into petrol

Yes, really


Although the process is still in the early developmental stages and needs to take electricity from the national grid to work, the company believes it will eventually be possible to use power from renewable sources such as wind farms or tidal barrages.


Yet again there^ lies the rub. It still needs less efficient energy systems to produce the petrol meaning it takes a lot more energy to make it than what they get out of the end product itself. Spending more energy to get less energy. We still don't have anything available that comes close to just drilling a hole in the ground and getting energy out. The more links or stages in the energy producing chain the less efficient it tends to be. The problem is we consume too much not that there isn't enough.


Emp


Frank

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 21 October, 2012, 01:30:41 AM
It still needs less efficient energy systems to produce the petrol meaning it takes a lot more energy to make it than what they get out of the end product itself. Spending more energy to get less energy. We still don't have anything available that comes close to just drilling a hole in the ground and getting energy out. The more links or stages in the energy producing chain the less efficient it tends to be. The problem is we consume too much not that there isn't enough.

I'm amazed you were able to type that while furiously pedalling to provide the power for your ipad, Soap.  The conservation of energy being the universal constant that it still stubbornly appears to be, I don't see any way of resolving that dilemma other than hibernating for the other few million years necessary for everything else to die, mulch down, and provide the energy necessary to fuel our escape to a planet with an orbit that makes solar power more viable than coal and oil-fired energy generation.

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 21 October, 2012, 01:30:41 AM
Yet again there^ lies the rub. It still needs less efficient energy systems to produce the petrol meaning it takes a lot more energy to make it than what they get out of the end product itself. Spending more energy to get less energy.

Well, yes, except that this is one way of addressing that key criticism of renewables, which is that you can't store the energy produced so that it's available when you actually need it.* Inefficiently converting energy isn't so much of a problem when the energy source in question is effectively limitless.

Also a plus is the fact that this technology pulls carbon out of the atmosphere, so the only greenhouse gases put back into the system when you burn the hydrocarbons produced are effectively the same ones that pulled out of the air in the first place.

Cheers

Jim

*See also the rather cunning technique currently being researched where renewables are used to liquefy air.
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

Definitely Not Mister Pops

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 21 October, 2012, 01:30:41 AM
We still don't have anything available that comes close to just drilling a hole in the ground and getting energy out.

I'm pretty sure that process is pretty complicated, dangerous, harmful to the environment, and not as simple and efficient as that statement makes out.
You may quote me on that.

TordelBack

Quote from: pops1983 on 21 October, 2012, 04:45:29 PM...not as simple and efficient as that statement makes out.

Well it's getting harder every day, but for a century or so it really was almost that easy and simple: countless millennia of concentrated liquid energy, courtesy of the sun, life and time.  The same thing happened with all the useful resources: once upon a time you could just pick up quality flint, pure gold and copper from surface sites, then the easily accessible stuff was all converted into geegaws and you were into mining and smelting and refining and shite to get what you used to get for free.

One day fairly soon gold and oil are going to have similar values, unless we set to synthesising equivalents.

Frank

Quote from: pops1983 on 21 October, 2012, 04:45:29 PM
I'm pretty sure that process is pretty complicated, dangerous, harmful to the environment, and not as simple and efficient as that statement makes out.

I think the point being made was that the immediate and long term solution to our energy requirements is to reduce demand and consumption. All the fascinating technologies linked to above are still some way from being perfected, and none of them are so economically attractive that they'll persuade corporations and governments to abandon the infrastructure and relationships with suppliers on which their current economic models and infrastructure are founded.

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: sauchie on 21 October, 2012, 05:05:37 PM
I think the point being made was that the immediate and long term solution to our energy requirements is to reduce demand and consumption.

More chance of me inventing cold fusion in my kitchen than this happening in the foreseeable future.

QuoteAll the fascinating technologies linked to above are still some way from being perfected, and none of them are so economically attractive that they'll persuade corporations and governments to abandon the infrastructure and relationships with suppliers on which their current economic models and infrastructure are founded.

Yes, but as the cost of traditional energy sources rises, and the difficulty of extracting them increases, the impetus to put more R&D resources into alternatives will also increase. The price differential will also narrow, if only because of the rising price of hydrocarbon-derived energy.

Cheers

Jim
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

Definitely Not Mister Pops

When I posted that story, I wasn't suggesting that the energy crisis was almost solved, but it is a fantastic achievement. IF, and it's a big IF, it becomes commercially viable, it's depressingly inevitable that it'll be handled in a cack-handed and corrupt way. Politicians are the worst.
You may quote me on that.

JOE SOAP

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 October, 2012, 02:53:33 PM
Well, yes, except that this is one way of addressing that key criticism of renewables, which is that you can't store the energy produced so that it's available when you actually need it.* Inefficiently converting energy isn't so much of a problem when the energy source in question is effectively limitless.


It won't replace oil or be the magic-bullet that allows us to party-on in the way most have become accustomed which is what most people are looking for or expect when they hear of these solutions. It's the same as algae farming or bio-oil, in order to mass-produce it other consequences result.


Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 October, 2012, 05:13:01 PM
Quote from: sauchie on 21 October, 2012, 05:05:37 PM
I think the point being made was that the immediate and long term solution to our energy requirements is to reduce demand and consumption.

More chance of me inventing cold fusion in my kitchen than this happening in the foreseeable future.


Don't worry, reality of limitation will solve the consumption dilemma for us and our lives will hopefully adjust accordingly.



Quote from: sauchie on 21 October, 2012, 05:05:37 PMAll the fascinating technologies linked to above are still some way from being perfected, and none of them are so economically attractive that they'll persuade corporations and governments to abandon the infrastructure and relationships with suppliers on which their current economic models and infrastructure are founded.



Nor can any alternative or combination thereof support the global infrastructure that has been built upon - and peaked after - 200 years of oil discovery and consumption. It'd be difficult to just switch over to something else even if a new energy source/production were released tomorrow.


Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 October, 2012, 05:13:01 PM
Yes, but as the cost of traditional energy sources rises, and the difficulty of extracting them increases, the impetus to put more R&D resources into alternatives will also increase.


How much recoverable oil does there need to be left to do it and how much is too little? Even if a solution is discovered we still need an oil-based industry and delivery system to produce and roll it out globally, then there's the matter of retro-fitting all the oil-based machinery. Not to mention all the other things that oil derivatives produce that we don't have alternatives for.

The answer for now is reduction of consumption. If we get some alternatives along that path, all the better.

The Legendary Shark

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Ancient Otter


Spikes

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 26 October, 2012, 04:17:55 PM
The Scale of the Universe - Interactive http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120312.html

Mind blowing stuff!

Oh, thats great, isnt it.
Two things ive learnt - Japanese spider crabs are drokkin huge, and Aldebaran is not to be confused with Alderaan,  ;)

Fun stuff!

TordelBack

Quote from: Judge Jack on 11 November, 2012, 11:56:32 AMAldebaran is not to be confused with Alderaan,  ;)

Aldebaran is very pretty in the sky at the moment, even in light-polluted areas.  Just look east and the incredibly brilliant star you see low down in the sky after dark (rising upwards to the south towards midnight and beyond) is actually Jupiter.  Just to the right of Jupiter the next bright star is Aldebaran (in Taurus), its orange-giant red colour really obvious when seen beside Jupiter's sulphurous yellowish white (the bluish Alnath is just to the left, the tip of the Bull's horn).  In slightly better conditions the Pleiades are visible just above.  Later on in the night Orion rises just below in the south, its brightest star the home system of our beloved Mighty One.  Bloody magic.

As to Alderaan.. well that's what I'm trying to tell you, kid. It ain't there. It's been totally blown away

The Legendary Shark

[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]