House Characters In Comics

[The Adventurer]

I'd argue the most interesting 'Rogue Trooper' stories don't feature Rogue. And further more, Rogue might be the least interesting character in his universe.  But that might just be me.

[Tjm86]

Jaegir has worked incredibly well.  It has to be an excellent example of world building but I wonder if the choice of focus on the Norts rather than the Southers is also helpful there.  Would a similar story have worked in that respect?  Coleby's artwork is also a perfect example of how to match up writer and artist.  Contrast that with the Traitor General strip with artwork by Holden.  I'm not sure how much mileage there actually is since the core character appears remarkably one dimensional anyway.  Is Holden's cartoony style the most appropriate for it?  The same is true of the 46ers for me. 

[TordelBack]

I think PJ's current style works incredibly well for the Hunted stories - Gordon is writing fun over-the-top stuff, with a procession of colourful bounty hunters and assorted NuEarth freaks and geeks, and PJ invests it all with colourful energy. It reminds me of the Fort Neuro era - in a good way. It's a very different beast to the brooding doom-laden Jaegir, and the art on both reflects this. 

[Frank]

The same is true of the 46ers

Only half as good as The 86ers*


* Maybe a little more

[Richard]

I enjoy seeing Rogue Trooper's world through the eyes of the bad guys.

[Tjm86]

The same is true of the 46ers

Only half as good as The 86ers*


* Maybe a little more

Shows how much it hit home if I can't even get the title right!   

[Magnetica]

Jaegir has worked incredibly well.  It has to be an excellent example of world building but I wonder if the choice of focus on the Norts rather than the Southers is also helpful there.  Would a similar story have worked in that respect?

No it wouldn't. The whole point of Jaegir is it's from the Norts point of view.

She's the "goodie" who happens to have been born on the "baddies' " side.

Equally no-one sees themselves as a baddie. The strip is able to explore that by having her as a Nort.

[Frank]

The extent to which Julius's observations apply to spin-offs varies.

Stuff like, Hershey, Tales From The Doghouse, and Hunted - featuring the same/similar characters and which are supposed to be happening in the same time and place as the parent strip - are hamstrung in exactly the manner described above.

They're too similar to the main strip and the talent are constrained by the history and tone established by the original creators.

On the other hand, stuff like Jaegir, Deadworld, and Lawless - featuring completely different casts and settings* - might as well be original titles.

They're really only using the iconography of the original strip as an easy-in with readers. If Tharg had passed on them, the artists could tippex-out the Dredd/Rogue design elements and sell them to another publisher as original creations. **


* Dan Abnett Durham Red being the prime example. Might as well have wrote it up as a new strip, Sexy Space Vampire.

** Sexy Space Sheriff, Sexy Nazi, and Silent Hill Meets The Walking Dead (not sexy at all)

[Tjm86]

Fair point, Magnetica.  I do think it is a bit more than that.  The Nort 'empire' has a mystique to it that I'm not sure could be achieved with the Southers, at least not without falling into a standard dystopian cliche.  There was always an element of the Fascist about them.  The Scum Marines always struck me as a very thinly veiled reworking of the Kriegmarine of old, for example.  Frank's point is valid in that this backdrop is not absolutely necessary but it works so well because it was always there to be explored.  It allows the tension of the relationship between the core character and the social milieu within which she has to operate to drive the narrative forward.

[The Adventurer]

Southers vs Norts has always struct me as the Confederate States of America vs Nazis.

[Magnetica]

I think you are right there Frank, but there is one strip that seems to do ok even though it's set in the same place (but not always) and same time as the parent strip i.e. Anderson.

And it often features appearances from Dredd himself.

Just goes to show it's not a hard and fast rule.

[Frank]

The Anderson strip is great!

[AlexF]

If I'm reading this debate right, the major point seems to be that because John Wagner has written so much Dredd, and has inarguably written all the very best Dredds (often along with Alan Grant), we've ended up with a situation in which no one else will ever be able to write a Dredd story that goes down in history as an all-time classic. Although we all dearly hope that John Wagner can and will still manage to do this (speaking personally, I loved Harvey and look forward to the next chapter of that saga!)

As a result, the logic goes, no other writer should bother writing any Dredds as, even though some will be among the top tier of all Dredd stories, none can ever hope to be a true all-time classic.

I guess there's a sort of truth in this? Obviously people's favourites vary, but most agree that, e.g. Cursed Earth, Judge Cal, Judge Child, Block Mania/Apocalypse War, Graveyard Shift, Midnight Surfer, 80% of the one-offs from c.1981-1987, Necropolis and of course America are all-time classics of British literature.

Some of the more recent John Wagner epics, e.g. Total War (now 12 years old!), Origins and Day of Chaos have gone down in the Canon of Dredd, if not into all-time status.

But I still don't see the bigger point of the argument. I don't think any non-Wagner writers (excl. Mills and Grant's involvements above) have written genre-changing literary classics in the world of Dredd, but I do think they have produced some of the best-ever Dredd stuff. e.g. Rennie's Judgement Stop; the 'Planet Gary stories; Williams/Flint on Titan and Enceladus, and indeed Carroll's 'Every Empire Falls' collection (apart from the ending).

I also think their writing on Dredd has helped them all develop as writers, and as such may well have informed some actual 'all-time classics of 2000AD', e.g. Caballistics, Inc and Ichabod Azrael. In many ays, it's better trainign than Future Shocks, which teach the art of quick and clear exposition, but not so much how to write car chases and shoot-outs.

I also think their authorial voice HAS come through in their Dredds. Think back to the late 90s, when you had Robbie Morrison, in the red corner, doing Dredd as tortured hero who wipes the tears from citizens brows as the uncaring city destroys their souls - and in the blue corner, Rennie's Dredd as a gruff cynical hero who does good by coincidence in carrying out his legal duties and cheerfully kicks crying children when they get in his way.*

Or Al Ewing, who uses all that MC-1 has to bring his absurdist spin on the world of comics, but also a worldview that tells us to stop worrying and just have fun pointing at all the silliness that goes on in  the real world.

As for other 2000AD attempts to farm out 'house characters' to other creators, I agree that most have not been as good as the originals. But I still don't think that's good enough reason not to keep trying! There are success stories, as mentioned above Rogue Trooper and spin-offs (some not all, of course), I also think Abnett's VCs is better than the original, not least because it replaces Gerry Finley-Day's gonzo ideas machine with a love for procedural drama and character study (a big part of the Abnett voice; see also Insurrection and Lawless). And most agree that Kek-W improved on both Canon Fodder and the Grudge Father, for all the good that did.

Hell, awful as it was, even Mark Millar's RoboHunter was brimming with Millar's authorial voice - it's just that most 2000AD readers (me included) don't like what he has to say much of the time.

Sure, it's 80% more likely that the original creators will do a better job telling the continuing adventures of their own creations, but if those creators don't wanna, and don't mind someone else having a go**, then I say go for it.

As a very personal example, I freakin LOVE the Mean Team (book 1). I was sad that Alan Hebden's 'Mean Team' book 2 was a bit rubbish, despite the great art. Hilary Robinson's 'Survivor' came out of the blue, and I thought had some potential to take the series on a new direction - but I think Ron Smith was almost entirely the wrong artist to do it. A bit more mixing and matching of creators may have put it all right, who knows?

Mind you, it doesn't hurt to give the creators involved a kick to try harder, and to inject more of themselves into any story, even if it's someone else's creation.


*I sometimes get the impression that Rennie keeps on writing comics because he is good at it and can't help himself, not because he has a burning passion to tell certain stories. Certainly he doesn't care what any of us readers think when choosing what to write!

**Mega-important, this point! Not least because some creators clearly know where their creations are heading, even if they can't quite bring themselves to write it down for our reading pleasure.

[IndigoPrime]

On the other hand, stuff like Jaegir, Deadworld, and Lawless - featuring completely different casts and settings* - might as well be original titles.

I think they could be. But their link to existing series gives them far more richness than they'd get from a standing start. And Deadworld has, to my mind, done what Wagner himself couldn't do over decades (and even in his recent series): made the Dark Judges properly horrifying again.

Sure, it's 80% more likely that the original creators will do a better job telling the continuing adventures of their own creations, but if those creators don't wanna, and don't mind someone else having a go**, then I say go for it.

I think this is fair point, although I'd add the caveat: was the original run done and dusted? I wouldn't want to see another writer pick up something that was self-contained and ended, and I'm a little wary these days about strips that ended well (Luke Kirby might even fit in there; Zenith certainly does).

And, again, 2000 AD is far more respectful of creators than the vast majority of other publishers in this space. All of Mills's series have remained with him, bar the odd blip. No-one's yanked anything Abnett made away from him. Some other 'transfers', like the 86ers, happened with the blessing of the original creator. My impression is that if the original writer is keen and able, they'll be penning more of their stuff. If they're unwilling or unable, circumstances may have a publisher consider an alternative.

[Frank]

Sure, it's 80% more likely that the original creators will do a better job telling the continuing adventures of their own creations, but if those creators don't wanna, and don't mind someone else having a go**, then I say go for it.

2000 AD is far more respectful of creators than the vast majority of other publishers  ... My impression is that if the original writer is keen and able, they'll be penning more of their stuff.

We're having this discussion because John Smith - while keen to maintain cordial relations with Tharg* - is clearly not okay with the idea that this week's Indigo Prime will (presumably) be his last. See also, Devlin Waugh.

Even if there's some reason Smith was unable to deliver new scripts (and nobody has said there is), I'd rather Tharg waited until he could. Where's the pressing need for more IP or Devlin?** And is that need great enough to warrant alienating one of your best talents and few original voices?


* "I don't want to go all Alan Moore on them"

** Both strips have spent long periods of time out of the comic, before.