Why You're a FOOL if you think 2000AD DOESN'T want new writers...

[Art]

Oh yes. "Zarjaz" is definately going places because its good, and Andrew puts in a lot of hard work. But by no means was he starting from a standstill: His other project Top Nosh Tosh has been good for quite some time, and he is a remarkably well connected individual. It would be foolish not to put this down to time, effort and patience.

[El Spurioso]

...so you're suggesting the only reason Zarjaz is a success is because Andrew has good connections?  Nope, don't agree at all.  He's gone out of his way to approach people, advertise for talent, organise interviews and so-forth and generally do a bloody good job as an editor.  In this industry 'contacts' aren't the same as in the movie biz: anyone can approach a professional working for comics and request an interview or a contribution without being beaten-up by a bevvie of bodyguards.  'Contacts' is just another way of saying 'people I could be bothered to approach'.

As for the usefulness of fanzines, I think it's wrong to look upon it as a business venture.  When you have your finished piece of fan fiction, there are only a handful of printed copies that turn a 'bit of expensive fun' into an investment: the ones you send to editors.  You can send as many Future Shock ideas as you want and they'll all get read sooner-or-later, but there's nothing so powerful as an editor actually *seeing* an example of your work.  I have absolutely no doubt that Tharg has digested Zarjaz with considerably more enthusiasm than is felt during the inevitable slush-pile-trawl, and now every time Andrew or Duncan or Nigel send-in idea submissions, the editor can at least be reminded of the fact that they've published work before.  

Don't mean to rant, but there's far too much of this assumption that people are *owed* something by editors.  With the Internet around these days there's this sort of all-encompassing impression that, oh, if I chuck some ideas or artwork onto the WWW Tharg has a *duty* to see them and then respond.  Bullshit.  The BEST way of getting anywhere in this - or any - industry is to get out there and be pro-active.

[paulvonscott]

It seems to me like Simon Spurrier and Spaceman are tilting at windmills here.  Who are these phantasmal figures who feel they are OWED something and Tharg HAS to give them feedback?

People send stuff to Tharg and hope they get some sort of feedback, well I guess thats what you, Alan Moore and she loads of people of varying talents have done?  From what I've seen, most people are pretty 'umble (like arthur) and are depserately greatful for any feedback they do get.

If you have evidence that a lot of these people do think their owed something by Tharg, then show me.

I do think the pro-active comment is a good one, and I've made it before.  If people want to make comics, then they should and if it leads to something better than great.  

I don't think Arthur was saying that Zarjazz was a success solely because of his contacts.  But he, like me has tried to get amateur artists into collaborating on projects, it IS hard, that is a reality.  And from an artists perspective I can see why thats the case.  On the whole, they won't be hugely motivated to work on a small project for nothing with an unknown writer on an unknown strip that no-one might see apart from a few people at a con who use it as a beer mat.

They will be interested on working on (what is for a fanzine) a big project, that features professional wrieters and artists along side amateur ones, featuring well known commercial characters that gets read by people in the comics industry.

Thats not a slur on anyone, it just makes sense.  If if you can write AND draw (luck person) then putting together a fanzine is pretty easy.  There must be more people wanting to be writers than artists.  The actual physical process of putting together a fanzine is easy these days, the content of course requires more work.

Of course fanzines aren't a business venture, Zarjazz and Class of 79, both of which, from what I've seen I really liked, have made 2 issues so far.  I don't think anyone's knocking them.  If your fanzine is tied some exisiting product then you may be lucky enough to have semi-official recognition.  But if its your own stuff, then yeah, you should just see the comic as a reward in itself.

Coming from me its a bit rich, but there is a lot of directionless anger here, that quite frankly I find hard to figure out.

[Art]

Eep! You know, I think my previous posts must have been seriously badly worded, because that?s not what I meant to say at all. I don't disagree with you AT ALL that Andrew has done a bloody good job as an editor.

(...in fact, I houldn't have mentioned Zarjaz at all. Zarjaz is clearly way ahead of most fanfic/small press comics in terms of quality)

Basically the gist of what I'm saying is that doing small press stuff is harder than it looks, and the results are quite often not half as impressive as you think they'll be. And yes, in general it should be regarded as 'bit of expensive fun'. Sure, it could turn out to be an investment in the long run, but theres no guarantee.

[Art]

"The BEST way of getting anywhere in this - or any - industry is to get out there and be pro-active."

And yes, I agree with you there too. I'm on the motherfucker. But I reserve the right to comment on the process along the way, and I've certainly run into my fair share of setbacks and will argue with anyone who thinks its a simple or easy thing to break into writing comics, with or without the help of fanfic or small press.

I wasn't conscious that I was particularly moaning or critising anyone all that much, and it if it comes over that way i apologies, unreservedly.

Back the hell up, dude. I'm on your side.

[El Spurioso]

Hey, didn't mean to offend, I just can't stand this whole "it's not fair!" thing.

I don't want to go urinating on anyone from atop the moral highground, and I certainly don't want to go getting involved in arguments, but something which has been going-around a LOT recently is this sense of conspiracy or unfairness amongst wannabes.  The whole I-wannabe-a-droid community is becoming permeated by the idea that rejections have nothing to do with the quality (or lack thereof) of a submission, as much as they have to do with the name of submitter or the colour of the envelope or the weather or whatever.  I don't mean to get personal or nasty, but you've been as guilty of this as anyone else Arthur, and I just think it's a really dangerous mindset to be in.  Every time someone new turns-up with the story of their first rejection, what people *should* be saying is "Well, take the advice on the letter and try again."  What they *shouldn't* be saying is "Oh, well, you know... they never really give us wannabes enough attention anyway, and it's all because we haven't joined the secret writer's club and blah blah".  That way lies madness and Scojoism - and I suspect you'd be the first person to avoid that.  ;)

Anyway.  Didn't mean to be fractious.  No offence meant.

[paulvonscott]

I think the secret writers club is really only ever mentioned as a joke.

As for the rest, well out of my old FS, I only ever got back form letters, but if you don't get feedback (which most people count as a bonus, want AND listen to) then you just have no idea if it isn't the weather or the type of paper you've used.  THAT is where people get confused and despair.  How can you improve if you don't know what the problem is?  Then again, no-ones asking Tharg to run a school of comics either.

From what you've just said, I think you're wrong  but hey, maybe you've seen more of this sort of thing than me.  

[El Spurioso]

Of course I was exaggerating about the Secret Writer's club...

And I appreciate that it must be incredibly difficult to deal with a form letter response to a future shock.  I certainly don't advocate an immediate cessation to creative frustration.  My only point was that more and more I'm seeing posts from people - here or on [scriptdroids] or wherever, in which people say "Ah, well...  Just had another rejection.  I'll keep trying, of course, but---".....   And then you can feel free to insert whatever semi-humourous throwaway comment first comes to mind which indicates that in a tiny festering part of their suspicious mind the writer would secretly, dearly *love* to believe that there's an enormous conspiracy going-on and that there's nothing remotely fair about the whole process.  It's like a damage-limitation device, designed to soothe the pain of yet another rejection.  I've been there - shit, I've had more rejections than most.  I even had the colossal temerity to attach a little paragraph to the bottom of one of my earliest sub-letters suggesting politely that maybe Mr Bishop wasn't being entirely fair with me and wouldn't he like to, y'know, look a bit closer?  The response was ice-cold, and it finally woke me up to the extraordinary simplicity of the situation: if you get rejected, the idea is NOT good enough.  There's nothing to feel hardly-done-by about.  No unfairness.  
I know that most people understand that - I think Arthur certainly does - and it's not that which worries me.  It's the little one-liners that are like a bitter sting in the end of a lot of rejectees' posts.  They write two sensible paragraphs about being frustrated but being determined to carry-on, then say (for example) "Or, hey, I could always join the secret writers' club!".  They don't mean it seriously, but they *want* to believe it, and it's an INCREDIBLY dangerous mindset.

And then we start hearing complaints about having to do fanzines and actually work *hard* for something, and it just makes me a bit sad, I guess.  

That make more sense?

[Art]

Well, you're right in that I suspect the process for commisioning scripts doesn't revolve around being "fair", and that claims that it does are just as delusional as claims of  a "secret writers club" conspiracy.

You yourself provide evidence that both persistance and managing to be in the right place at the right time are factors in getting published, and thats AS WELL AS skill, not INSTEAD of it.

The same is true of getting any job. Theres nothing wrong with that, its just the way the world works. And it still means that the best course of action for anyone getting a rejection is to try again, not bitch and whine about it and give up, I agree with you there.

[Art]

You know, its a shame you live wherever-the-hell-it-is-that-you-live, because this conversation would probably have gone much better over beers.

[El Spurioso]

"Well, you're right in that I suspect the process for commisioning scripts doesn't revolve around being "fair", and that claims that it does are just as delusional as claims of a "secret writers club" conspiracy."

Then I rest my case.  Nothing I can say to change your mind, it's just a shame that all the other people who aren't too far gone and who *could* benefit from the knowledge that quality will out are going to grow a little more bitter and less-likely to grow creatively every time they hear your 'suspicions'.


"You yourself provide evidence that both persistance and managing to be in the right place at the right time are factors in getting published, and thats AS WELL AS skill, not INSTEAD of it."

Of course persistance has something to do with it, but not in a "if I send 50 subs sooner-or-later they'll HAVE to commission me" way.  Persistance, in my case, worked because every time I was rejected I tried to understand WHY.  It's a process of growth, not of stubbornly refusing to believe that there's anywhere left to grow *to* and just sending sub-standard idea after sub-standard idea and trusting to the law of averages that one day it'll be 'my big chance'.  And I don't buy the 'right place at the right time' bollocks: the pitchfest prize wasn't a confirmed 'this will be printed', it was just a sneaky way of bypassing the slush pile and saving myself a few months' waiting time.  I still had to send the script to Andy and develop it with him.  I don't want to sound nasty and, as you say, this conversation would be a lot easier to have over a couple of pints (Dreddcon3, if it happens), but at the moment I can't help but read your posts without imagining a definite taint of Scojoesque whingeing in the metaphorical tone-of-voice.  At the end of the day, you've proved that nothing I ever say is going to convince you that the process is fair.  Fine.  We can both move-on.  But please, please don't go dragging-down other prospective talents who need the benefit of knowing that if they work hard enough and grow enough they *can* succeed.

[paulvonscott]

Yeah I get that Si.  I'm with you now.

You have to understand why people say that stuff, maybe its a joke, maybe its to make them feel better.  But the reason they say it, I think is that its all such an invisble process and with a blank form letter its impossible to rationalise that.  

I know why my first slew during the nineties got rejected and that's because I didn't understand you needed a synopsis, so they didn't even get read (yeah, they  were probably pants but it never got to that stage).  It sounds dumb, but all I had read about scripts was in the infamous Judge Dredd annual.  At least Andy Diggle (as assitant editor) when he returned my scripts TOLD me that.  Thank God he did, I could have been going on forever.  

Since I've started again, I've had one rejection with a form letter, which was fine.  It either wasn't right for AD or just wasn't any good, no worries.  The only danger is that I make the same mistakes again, or make the wrong assumptions on what was good or bad about it and compound those mistakes.  Hey, I'm not the poor bugger who has to read them.

Anyway thats all I know from personal experience, and its not a lot.  I think another part of it is that people see a dumb future shock and maybe think 'I could do better than that' well, its pretty easy to say, but harder to do in reality.  Stories often make sense to the people who are writing them and no-one else.  Hence the 'but it was a work of genius I tell you' cry.

I just don't understand why your getting pissed off with a bunch of wannabe writers, who lets face it are several million miles behind you on the comic writers evolutionary scale.  Unless of course, you think their comments are somehow a slur on your own work or the hard work its taken to get where you are at the moment.  

I could understand it if you said that was the reason.  If you're just sick of their bitching stop listening to them, its easier than trying to convince a large group of people to change their ways.  Although all hail to thee if you try to open peoples eyes to the reality of the situation.

I for one like a bit of reality.

[spaceman]

In reply to another message waaay down the pecking order. PVS said:

"I just don't understand why your getting pissed off with a bunch of wannabe writers, who lets face it are several million miles behind you on the comic writers evolutionary scale. Unless of course, you think their comments are somehow a slur on your own work or the hard work its taken to get where you are at the moment."

Without wanting to put words in El Spuriousos mouth, what winds me up is the *constant* flippent remarks that seem to suggest that if someone else has made it and you haven't then it's because of anything BUT the quality of the future shock. Art has already suggested his pitchfest lost out primarily because a) it was too complex and b) he fouled up the presentation. It couldn't possibly be have been *gasp* it wasn't good enough? NO WAY!!

FWIW, I remember a time when Spurious was first christened by Andy Diggle in a piece of wonderfully enjoyable vitriol on the NG which would have suggested that Spur had made *all the wrong* impressions. But perseverence and talent have eventually won out.

I'm simply saying: if your work hasn't been commisioned, it's because (in the editors view) it's not good enough.

Plus: without wanting to slur spur, if the other guys are several million miles down the evolutionary scale from him, I'd wonder if pursuing writing might be the wrong idea.

Let the grilling commence!

-space

[El Spurioso]

"I just don't understand why your getting pissed off with a bunch of wannabe writers, who lets face it are several million miles behind you on the comic writers evolutionary scale. Unless of course, you think their comments are somehow a slur on your own work or the hard work its taken to get where you are at the moment."

I'm not getting pissed-off about it so much as slightly dissapointed.  Believe it or not I'm keen to encourage new talent and new writers - if it weren't for a handful of various people who encouraged me and told me where I was going wrong (and no, I *don't* mean 'scriptdroids') I'd have come completely a-cropper by now, and it's good to give something back to the world.  Corny, but there you go.  I just think this "it's not fair!" attitude prevalent amongst submitters at the moment is completely damaging to individuals who need the time and comfort to grow and develop without the niggling suspicion that it won't make any different because the whole thing's a lottery and blah blah blah.

Plus, I have to admit that it pisses me off when people imply that I only got to where I am thanks to a series of astonishing flukes.  Fuck 'em.  I worked hard, I learnt a lot of lessons.

As for me getting involved in this sort of debate, it's a thorny question that I've been thinking about quite a lot.  For all my sins, I was already a voice in the various Internet communities before I started working with 2000AD.  What pisses me off more than anything in the world is that people seem to assume I merit special attention for that reason alone: take this week's Future Shock.  It was okay.  Had it been written by any other writer in the world nobody would have thought twice about discussing it - maybe some flippant comment somewhere about it being not-too-bad.  Fine.  But *just because it's me*, I'm forced to trawl through all this bollocks about "oooh, lame execution, couldn't you have done it like this, let's pick it apart with a fine toothcomb, blah blah de fucking blah."  I've nobody to blame but myself because - as I'm demonstrating right now - I find it very hard to sit back and stay-out of discussions involving myself.  Accept my assurances that I'm trying my hardest to limit my presence on these forums and it's only in moments of a) drunkenness, b) pathetic clingyness or c)furious vitriol that I decide to contribute.  Given that I was recently ditched by my g/f I've spent much of the last few weeks in a state combining a), b) and c), which may go some way to explain the plethora of postage.  
Shutting up now.

[paulvonscott]

"Plus: without wanting to slur spur, if the other guys are several million miles down the evolutionary scale from him, I'd wonder if pursuing writing might be the wrong idea."

If it isn't obvious, what I actually meant was that Si is a published writer who has had a series in 2000AD, that is in stark contrast to people plugging away sending in scripts who may have had a few words from Tharg.  The same position no doubt as Si was X years ago. I'm not slagging off Si or people who aren't to be writers its just an observational point.

There's been a lot of lazy banding about of so-called slurs and these flippant remarks.  

For the case in hand I think both you and Si have behaved like a couple of pricks towards Arthur, you've both read stuff into his comments that I haven't seen and that I'm pretty damn sure he never meant.

To me it seems angry and irrational.  If you have a fair point to say, say it, but I for one don't think Arthur holding back other talents or other such rampant bullshit.  Christ you don't see John Wagner pulling this shit, at least if he does he doesn't bother us with it.

I reckon I can understand why Si might be saying these things, but I don't know who you are and what your beef is.  Are you a writer or something?  You seem to have launched into this will a full head of wind in your sails.

To say I think this it's a fun challenging lively debate would be wrong.  To me it's just a couple of people being bitter (exactly what they are accusing others of) and having a pop at someone.

If someone wants a serious debate about something great, but what the hell even started this?