The Political Thread

[Hawkmumbler]

Please don't think it doesn't sadden me that these things are happening. But ever since humanity was spawned there has been war between one another and horrific acts that are not right. I'm sadly of two minds though. On the one hand, such things simply show humanity's penchant for power and meaningless violence in order to achieve their goals and are monstrosities. On the other, such culls are present in all species. Speaking as a biology student, it's well documented that many colony species of invertebrates kill there fellows in order to achieve areas of land and secure food supplies. Such things are needed to keep a species in check (and at over 7 billion, the effects of humanities over population are apparent). It's an old argument, human ethics over natural selection.

[Frank]

such culls are present in all species. Speaking as a biology student, it's well documented that many colony species of invertebrates kill there fellows in order to achieve areas of land and secure food supplies. Such things are needed to keep a species in check (and at over 7 billion, the effects of humanities over population are apparent). It's an old argument, human ethics over natural selection.

Syria has a population of 22 million occupying a land mass not much smaller than that of the UK (pop. 63 million), and an economy the size of that of New Zealand - which was in growth until the uprising. Competition for territory or resources has nothing to do with the present conflict, which started out as the same protests against inequality of opportunity which have been seen across North Africa but has taken on an increasingly ethnic character.

The kind of social and economic Darwinism you espouse above was in vogue around the end of the 19th century, and that ideology played a key role in bringing about the obscenity of WWI - there was much talk in both England and Germany about the degeneration of the species and the inevitable necessity of thinning out the heard. You should try reading outside your syllabus, Hawkmonger; start with some history and then maybe a newspaper too, buddy.

[Hawkmumbler]

I'm merely stating the obvious. Look beyond the Syria conflict at the world in general. 7 Billion people. It's impossible for them to all agree, people are going to disagree. And when certain vulgar people disagree they get violent. And people die. I don't need to have a pHd to know that much. It's regrettable, but a fact.

[CrazyFoxMachine]

It's not fact, it's huge generalisation. Those aren't facts, those are just you summing up various things to simplistic point that bear no relation to reality. I'd suggest stopping before you dig yourself even further down into this mess of misguided logic.

"certain vulgar people" indeed...

[Frank]

I'm merely stating the obvious. Look beyond the Syria conflict at the world in general. 7 Billion people. It's impossible for them to all agree, people are going to disagree. And when certain vulgar people disagree they get violent. And people die. I don't need to have a pHd to know that much. It's regrettable, but a fact.

Like I said, Social Darwinism has been discredited for around a century. The thesis that increased population density correlates with increasing levels of violence doesn't stand up to a close examination of the available facts either:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904106704576583203589408180.html

"About 15% of people in prestate eras died violently, compared to about 3% of the citizens of the earliest states. Historical records show that between the late Middle Ages and the 20th century, European countries saw a 10- to 50-fold decline in their rates of homicide.

Since 1946, several organizations have tracked the number of armed conflicts and their human toll world-wide. The rate of documented direct deaths from political violence (war, terrorism, genocide and warlord militias) in the past decade is an unprecedented few hundredths of a percentage point. Even if we multiplied that rate to account for unrecorded deaths and the victims of war-caused disease and famine, it would not exceed 1%.

An important peacemaker has been cosmopolitanism—the expansion of people's parochial little worlds through literacy, mobility, education, science, history, journalism and mass media. These can prompt people to take the perspective of people unlike themselves and to expand their circle of sympathy to embrace rationality and objectivity in human affairs. People reflect more on the way they live and consider how they could be better off."

- Steven Pinker PhD, Harvard University, from The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined

[JamesC]

Here's an interesting article on this subject:

http://onviolence.com/?e=481

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

I'm merely stating the obvious.

Exactly, you're not giving any Earth shattering insights, you're stating well known and general things everyone is familiar with as if it's some sort of wisdom

[Richmond Clements]

This reminds me of this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1DnltskkWk

[Hawkmumbler]

Haha love ya Richmond! Just knew someone was gonna pull that at some point. All I'm saying guys (and unlike some of you seem to think, I'm not trying to prove anythinghere) is that this is no different from any conflict before now. Just that the media seem to love it. And the fact that the government will doggedly follow thebUS into every wild goose chase they point them to. All the while the nations going to shit (we can all agree on that, yeas?) and we don't have the money to fix it because we've gone and funded some insurgency into a country on the other side of the globe! My cousins are living off food banks because they can't find work because there's no industry to work in. There's no industry to work in because there's no money to fund any. Where become a consumerist society and there's little work to be had. Now where's did all the money go? Funding Iraq and Afghanistan. That's what I know. That my family is living out some rotten half existence while the government hold a monopoly on world justice. I might not be as well read as you lot, I wouldn't be at my age, but I can tell when something is wrong and when you've given to the point where there's nearly nothing left to give.

[Professor Bear]

Our governments couldn't give a flying fuck about melted babies - the fact they can't even give their own populations medicine ought to tell you that much.  The only hawk who wants to wage a war on humanity who is worth listening to is from season 2 of Buck Rogers, and as time went on he seemed to be against it and more for hanging out with his mates and looking for a wife.  There's probably a lesson for us all in there somewhere.

[Beaky Smoochies]

This is how all quagmires begin... the road to Hades is littered with endless good intentions!  World War I was a mistake, the Suez Canal crisis was a mistake, Vietnam was a mistake, Iraq was a mistake, and getting involved in a bloody civil war in the Middle East that has already far-reaching repercussions... well, what could POSSIBLY go wrong there!?

If you're going to send brave young men and women (let's not forget the ladieesss!) to fight, to bleed, to push a button, or even to die, there needs to be three main and very clear objectives;

1)  The reason for intervention, and why and/or how it affects our territorial sovereignty and/or national security.

2)  The objectives of intervention and a clear exit strategy under variable and differing circumstances.

3)  That our armed forces are properly and sufficiently equipped and prepared for all conditions, circumstances, and scenarios as much as can be predicted.

Anyone think Obumma and 'Dave' have met or will meet these conditions...?



*** sound of chirping crickets***



Argument over.  Sorry Syrian rebel dudes, you're on your own...

[Beaky Smoochies]

"Hear the words I sing,
War's a horrid thing,
So I sing sing sing...ding-a-ling-a-ling."
                                           
                                         Pvt. S. Baldrick



Words of wisdom indeed... 'nuff said.

[Hawkmumbler]

"certain vulgar people" indeed...

Sorry, only just saw your post CFM. You do realise when I said "Certain vulger individuals" I was refering to the typical cast of misguided individuals. Terrorists, serial killers, dictators et al.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

Syria, what a mess!

Anyway read this instead -

The English are feeling the pinch in relation to recent events in Syria and have therefore raised their security level from "Miffed" to "Peeved." Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to "Irritated" or even "A Bit Cross." The English have not been "A Bit Cross" since the blitz in 1940 when tea supplies nearly ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from "Tiresome" to "A Bloody Nuisance." The last time the British issued a "Bloody Nuisance" warning level was in 1588, when threatened by the Spanish Armada.

The Scots have raised their threat level from "Pissed Off" to "Let's get the Bastards." They don't have any other levels. This is the reason they have been used on the front line of the British army for the last 300 years.

The French government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide." The only two higher levels in France are "Collaborate" and "Surrender." The rise was precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed France 's white flag factory, effectively paralysing the country's military capability.

Italy has increased the alert level from "Shout Loudly and Excitedly" to "Elaborate Military Posturing." Two more levels remain: "Ineffective Combat Operations" and "Change Sides."

The Germans have increased their alert state from "Disdainful Arrogance" to "Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs." They also have two higher levels: "Invade a Neighbour" and "Lose."

Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual; the only threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels.

The Spanish are all excited to see their new submarines ready to deploy. These beautifully designed subs have glass bottoms so the new Spanish navy can get a really good look at the old Spanish navy.

Australia, meanwhile, has raised its security level from "No worries" to "She'll be alright, Mate." Two more escalation levels remain: "Crikey! I think we'll need to cancel the barbie this weekend!" and "The barbie is cancelled." So far no situation has ever warranted use of the last final escalation level.

-- John Cleese

[Jim_Campbell]

Amusing, but bugger all to do with John Cleese.

Cheers

Jim