ABC Warriors - make up my mind for me

[Wood]

Well, go on then. Sod off.

So I've got an axe to grind. But frankly, I think I have a right to grind it.

[paulvonscott]

If you'd been raised by the Christian Brothers or one of another child abusing christian societies that have existed in the UK and Ireland Wood, perhaps you might feel differently.

Christianity aside, the churches, whether that's murdering popes, paedeo priests 9or the ones who kindly just hush it up), locking up single mothers in asylums up to the 1960's or condemning birth control in third world countires, the churches have a lot to be sorry for.

That has nothing to do with the belief of christianity as far as I can see, these people do it because they have the power to do it. But all this stuff still goes on by organisations which do not practice what they preach.

Pat mills is not saying your god, your papery book or your beliefs is worthless.  

[Wood]

If you'd been raised by the Christian Brothers or one of another child abusing christian societies that have existed in the UK and Ireland Wood, perhaps you might feel differently.

Oh, here we go.

Straw man time, then. You know what? I grew up spiritualist. Some spiritualists abuse and exploit people. Some muslims abuse and exploit people. Some atheists abuse and exploit people.

So. F*****g. What?

All that proves is that human nature sucks big time.

Never underestimate the human ability to use something worthwhile and beautiful into something petty and ugly.

Pat mills is not saying your god, your papery book or your beliefs is worthless.

Actually, yes he is, he has, and has done so repeatedly.

I happen to find stuff that's critical of blind belief and religious institutions highly entertaining. Dogma? Great film. Life of Brian? Harmless. Last Temptation of Christ? Well made and thouht provoking.

But Mills goes beyond that. He aims for the institutions - that's fine - but then gives as a reason the belief system behind it.

For example, I only recently reread the Black Hole story and realised that Mills has the Monad quote Jesus as if the words are (the Monad's) own.

What do I make of that, eh?

Slaine's anti-Christian adventures were not directed at the Church. they were directed at Christianity itself.

If Mills was directing his bilge at the Church, I wouldn't care. But he directs it by default at ME.

[Wood]

Look.

Paul, I like you, I don't want to get in a fight with anyone - especially you - and I apologise for losing it.

This is why I hate getting into arguments about religion.

I'm not going to convince anyone and I'm too angry right now to post a coherent argument, so I'm going away to cool off.

[paulvonscott]

Yes, it's not just christians who abused kids, that's true.  But to me it seems strange to me that a priest of god, who I assume believes in god and everlasting life thereafter, would commit some terrible act, before god, and then confess his sins later to be forgiven.

And that's the problem, you can't help but feel these people don't think they are doing any wrong, or if they are, their faith allows them to do it and get away with it.

I am thankful that we live in a society where the churches power has diminished, and I can say what I want about your beliefs without being burnt for the priviledge.

I have no problem with personal beliefs, but the church (and you have to admit that it is staffed by people who are supposedly the representatives of god on Earth) has commited throughout the centuries unspeakabley vile acts, helped to destroy cultures, tortured people.  They probably all believed they were good christians.

As Pagan society was destroyed by Christianity.  I don't see a problem with a pagan philosophy having it's say.  There is no reason that pagans should have anything good to say about the religion that destroyed and surpressed them.

A few hundred years ago, you may have been burning your so called pagan mates at the stake.  I doubt you'd have been to blame, despite the fact that you were killing someone, who just happened to think the world behaved a little differently than you, after all we can just blame the church, not the faith, not the people, not the god, just the institution.

Sorry if I offend you, but the church offends me, your beliefs don't offend me, neither do Pat Mills'.

[paulvonscott]

Oops, wish I'd seen that before I posted the last lot then...

[paulvonscott]

Okay, sorry too, I wasn't directing my grinding axes comment at you in particular.

I hear the same old anti-mills stuff every time I try and have a decent conversation about Mills work, even after I asked if people could just stick to the ponits raised in the strip.  No... people can't.

I'd be more than interested in hearing why the Judas religion was particularly offensive to christians.  I don't want to hear another Mills vs Christianity discussion however.

For the record, I'm not a christian or a pagan, have friends who are both and I believe, quite frankly, it's all made up and there's no real proof any of it happens the way it's believers say so.  That's my belief, and thank... whatever I can't be sacrificed at stonehenge or roasted at the stake for it.  You can however write as many story's as you want having a pop at my belief, I'm really not bothered.

[Wood]

OK, Paul. Truce?

FWIW, as I said, I think that Black Siddha could be quite good... I think the next episode or two will make or break it. And the Redeemer was great. Really great. Old-school.

The new ABC story was... dull. Although I liked, as I said, the artwork.

The whole Judas thing seemed to serve no purpose in the story, other than to make some point about religion.

Against my better judgement, this is why I'm personally attacked by this.

Fact fans take note: Judas is unique in the Bible as having died in two muttually exclusive ways - either hanging himself off a tree or by falling over and accidentally disembowelling himself). Neither of these deaths involve a gallows. The only death on a gallows - or the quivalent thereof - is that of Christ himself. Mills is not a stupid man (although he clearly reads some dodgy history books) and is no doubt well aware of this.

Basically the story's saying that the only saviour for a robot with a soul is a betrayer. That their faith is a sham. The droids are all a satire on human characteristics anyway. It's more subtle than a lot of Mills' stuff, but it's a swipe at a belief system, a faith, a way of life.

This is not the same as criticising an institution. I don't take kindly to being called evil. particularly not by a comic writer.

For a thought-provoking and intelligent take on a Judas-religion, go read JL Borges' short story "Three Versions of Judas". Still faintly blasphemous, but in a nice way, y'know.

[paulvonscott]

Hmmm.  Isn't the whole Judas thing saying that these robots earned their freedom through betrayal.  They feel bad about it due to their program, so they turn to the person who betrayed the god of the humans.  He died for their guilt and through him they may be absolved of it.

If it's anti-christian, then it's no different from having a satanist character, simply a reverse of what normal christianity is about.  It's just looking at how a different culture may see christianity and the story of Christ.  They may see more paralells with Judas than Christ.

To be honest, if I was going to have a pop, I'd just make the robots fully fledged christians, killing for the hell of it and saying sorry on a sunday morning.  That would be sickening.

As for the symbol, well lots of crucifix's have Jesus with Nails through his hands which I've been told isn't what was done by the romans, and show him as a blue eyed, blond haired chap, when as far as we know he was jewish.  I doubt there's been a product recall on them.  

It's a symbol, not a historical fact and in this case, their are no historical facts about Judas are there?  (Just biblical facts, which are different) As far as I know, he could have been a patsy, fitted up cos he was the ginger one.  But, I'll say anything to justify all those Judas Priest albums I have...

There's no point arguing I suppose, because if you are offended you are offended. But I just don't see it.  Was the Devil Rides Forth a swipe at christians?  I feel I've missed something here.

[Wood]

It's a symbol, not a historical fact and in this case, their are no historical facts about Judas are there? (Just biblical facts, which are different)

Well, yeah. Of course it's a symbol. That's the point.

Oh, and speaking as someone with a research degree in early religious lit. under his belt (graduation in July - silly hats ahoy!) - no, the Bible is an historical sourcebook as much as any other ancient text.

 If you don't see it, you don't see it.

Let's draw a line under it, shall we?

[Queen Firey-Bou]

woooooo go guys, nice arguements chaps...

now about Mills perception of women as either 'goddess or whore' & why its offensive to a gal...

please discuss...

[Oddboy]

Blimey!

A lot's been said there, & I'll try not to go over it again...

I didn't find anything in the latest ABC story offensive - because I don't take offence at comic book stories.
It's obvious though that Mills has a dislike for Christianity which is off-putting if you are Christian.
(I may be in the minority here) I enjoyed Finn, taking it as a fictional story (note though; Finn HAD a story, Sl?ine over the past few years (Moloch excepted) HASN'T).

I'm not going to defend the bad things that "The Church" has done over the last 1,970 years or so since its creation, neither am I going to take credit for the good things that it has done.  I wasn't there. I've only been a Christian for five years.
As a human being, you can only be responsible for what you yourself have done.  When you sit in judgement you will have to answer to God for yourself.
Any one who thinks that they can sin as much as they like & then say 'sorry' on Sunday is rather missing the point.
Confessing to a priest is not the same as asking forgiveness from Christ.  You can lie to a priest, say you're sorry when you are not.
You can't trick Christ that way - the penalty for sin is death, when he takes your sin away in forgiveness - Christ takes that death upon himself, it's what he died for on the cross.



As for "Biblical" facts & "Historical" facts - theh Bible is a lot more reliable then many ancient texts.

[Oddboy]

now about Mills perception of women as either 'goddess or whore' & why its offensive to a gal...

I never did understand Mills' depiction of women... he seems to always say that "female" is the way to go, yet comes accross fairly misoyggyygy (whatever the word is).

[Wood]

OK. Calmed down a bit now.

One thing.

A few hundred years ago, you may have been burning your so called pagan mates at the stake.

I know you didn't mean this as an insult. But it's a... well. It's just wrong, OK?

Paganism died out entirely in the sixth century AD. Modern Pagans follow a religion that has only existed for a century and a half (of course, just because it's new does not mean in and of itself that it is necessarily wrong - all beliefs have to start somewhere).

The people burnt at the stake (or more often hanged) were mostly (if not all) Christians, and to imagine that there was some sort of anti-pagan holocaust (some people reckon that nine million pagans died during the witch-hunting years. Well, considering that it was something like 250,000 people died in witch hunts altogether over that period... that's a pile of pooey pants) is not only an insult to history, it also denigrates the memory of those innocents who died.

I suspect that a few hundred years ago, I'd have been burned at the stake myself.

The site I've linked below is a good one with a lot of good resources on the history, especially since it's written from a pagan viewpoint.

Link: http://wicca.timerift.net" target="_blank">A Pagan who knows about history

[Wood]

Oh, and thanks, Oddboy.