ABC Warriors - make up my mind for me

[Queen Firey-Bou]

well i was certainly burnt at the stake, on many counts. in fact , is it leviticus? where theres another shed load of reasons for burning me at the stake, including haveing tattoos? But then as a rabid agnostic ararcho lapsed femo pagan, myself ...i think... theres plenty neo pagans who i'd happily... well not really... cos i'm not the murdering kind..

point being, theres pratts in all walks of life.

as for the Mills & woman thing. He seems to have a classic case of not really seeing us as humans, more as objects defined by how they relate to him & his needs & wants. Probably his mothers fault.

[Matt]

What makes me laugh about some of Mills stuff, is that he uses one religion to attack another. In 2000AD this is most notable in Slaine with the Paganism / Christianty conflict. He doesn't attack organised religion as a whole but rather selects which form of religion he's going to bash. I reckon if you have a problem with Christianty then you should have a problem with all organised religion. If you just have a problem with Christianty because it differs / conflicts with your particular faith, then you should at least respect it. Anyone who practises one faith should always respect people who practise another. At the end of the day what right do you have to bash my religion. I don't bash yours. Unfortunately it's this lack of respect for other faiths that has led to so much bloodshed throughout history. It's a bit ridiculous really. It's like declaring war on people who like Blue just because you think Red is better. Er, I don't know where I'm going with this. Maybe someone could point me in the right direction ;)

[Quirkafleeg]

Blue? Red? Orange pal, orange!

[paulvonscott]

Okay without going too much further, I'll make my original point again.  This wasn't saying Pat Mills was right, Christianity was in anyway wrong.  I'm not talking about Christianity, I'm talking about understanding why people have those opinions.

"It's obvious though that Mills has a dislike for Christianity which is off-putting if you are Christian."

What I said was that if you had been raised by the Christian Brothers, you too would probably have a problem with Christianity.  That probably passed you by (and then we ended up on the usual discussions of religion, where I think the church has done more bad than good and you say that's nothing to do with you).

But the truth is some people have good cause to dislike christianity.  If for instance you'd been a little girl sent to an orphangae in Ireland (because you'd been raped and contracted a STD), then good cause to be taken away from your mother, even though she'd been to the police and the doctor and had done anything a fit mother could.

This orphanage would be run by nuns, who would then, until you left as a young adult, systematically abuse and torture you, starve you, make you wear filthy rags and work for them as a slave, oh and teach you christian values.  

After a few years your mother is allowed to visit you one day a year, but you aren't allowed to touch each other.  Incidently nobody was ever punished (on the material plane) for what they did, the church just had too much respect and power, nobody questioned what they did.  Believe you me, I've given you the edited higlights of this 20th century horror.

This precise example happend about 40 years, abuse more or less severe happened to a lot of children in these christian societies.  

Now, this lady now has nothing good to say about Christianity, the people who were the servants of god did indescribable things to her.  She has written a book about it, condemning the church for it's role.  Is that off putting to a Christian?  Will you condemn her for her views?

If you were raised by a religious order, that to the outside world, did nothing but good work, was lauded by people every where, preached the bible, but in fact they were in the end just evil bastards and at the same tought you about  christianity, compassion for your fellow man, and lots of other stuff that sounds good in practice, would you feel the same way?

As a non-religious person, I can only look back on what the church has done with a sense of horror.  I'm sure christians see this differently.  I appreciate christians somehow aren't responsible for the bad things.  And that goes for some of the other big faiths who have a perfectly good book of words and use it to hurt people.

I find it offensive these things happen, I don't find it offensive that someone points out that they did happen.  I don't find it offensive that someone who has had first hand experience of the hypocrisy and cruelty of religion, then goes onto rail against that religion.  You haven't had those experiences with Christianity, others have.

I have tried not to attack your beliefs, none of the above invalidate those, from what i've seen it's a good way to life your life if you can do it.  What I have done is tried to show you how some people have good cause to dislike your religion.  

You can attack them as much as you want.  A few hundred years you couldn't just be offended by it, you could have had Pat Mills killed for his views.  I think it's justifiable to take advantage of this window in time to make his point.  

For instance, the pagan faith has been misrepresented for hundreds and hundreds of years.
It's practioners tortured and killed by Christians.

I am now extremely annoyed, I assume you are too.  But this keeps coming up time and time again, even after we'd had our truce, Oddboy brought up the same old stuff.

To be honest as long as Pat Mills keeps writing, this problem is going to surface.  It surfaces in practically every thread.

Sadly, it's come to the point where I think I'll just have to accept I can't get on with a certain portion of the people here, despite the fact I find them otherwise perfectly pleasant.  

I'm sorry about that.  But basically every time someone has a go at Pat Mills for his views (which incidently I don't believe in), I'm going to have a go and have a big argument and we're all going to feel bad about it.  Because I think they are justifiable, if not accurate and just because nobody else will stand up for them.

[Wood]

I find it offensive these things happen, I don't find it offensive that someone points out that they did happen. I don't find it offensive that someone who has had first hand experience of the hypocrisy and cruelty of religion, then goes onto rail against that religion. You haven't had those experiences with Christianity, others have.


It's not the pointing out that these things happen that I object to. Trust me, I'd wager they offend me even more than they do you because this is my faith brought into disrepute.

I honestly think we're talking at cross-purposes.

For instance, the pagan faith has been misrepresented for hundreds and hundreds of years.
Its practioners tortured and killed by Christians.

Paul, read my previous post, and go read some of the site I linked. Paganism was exterminated in most of the western world by the beginning the sixth century AD, and modern paganism is a new religion, dating back no more than a century and a half.

Look. I have spent eight years of my life in a respectable secular academic institution studying religious history and have two degrees to show for it. I do know what I am talking about here.

[Wood]

Paul, I'm sorry. I don't want to fight either.  

I don't understand whgy you can't see the difference between showing up the abuses people perform against each other (good) and the repeated dismissal of the entire basis of a faith as evil (bad).

I think the fact of the matter is, people are bastards. They do bad things to each other. They find excuses. People twist the humane words of Mohammed and suicide-bomb the World Trade Centre. They twist the idealism of Marx and create horrendous totalitarian regimes. They twist pride in their country and heritage into the consuming racist evil that attempts genocide. They take the love of Christ and twist it into a system for persecuting the different and abusing children in orphanages.

Are Marx, Mohammed, national pride, or Christ responsible for these evils? No, people are. People suck. It doesn't matter how good or noble an enterprise is, there will always be people who will find ways of using it to harm people.

Atheism, religion, political ideology, whatever. They've all been reasons behind horrendous atrocities. Are the faiths at fault? No, they all preach specifically against these things. People are.

We all believe in something, and we have to do our best to find a way through.

Can we at least agree on that and have that truce again?

[Matt]

Anyway back to the ABC Warriors. Wasn't SteelHorn indestructible way, way back when the warriors first formed? If that's still the case then these Shadow Warriors shouldn't pose too much of a problem, just send SteelHorn in, they can't kill him.

[Wood]

OK. I think we've all had our say.

Can we have that truce again, please?

[El Spurioso]

Anyone else getting dizzy?  I'm fairly sure this argument has gone full circle at least twice, now.

The pure and horrible truth is that the very essence of 'faith' is a belief that is based upon something intangible.  "He that has not seen, and yet believes..."etc etc.  The upshot is that we can all shoot Facts, Numbers, Thoughts and entirely salient arguments (and there have been plenty on either side) as much as we want, but if you have faith (and let's not confuse faith with Theism:  a strong willed atheist has just as much faith as a theist) you're fighting a completely useless argument.  I don't know ANYONE who, in the middle of a religious 'discussion' (and I tend to get stuck in a lot of them) suddenly says, "Good grief!  You're right!  I've been such a fool!".  Just doesn't happen.


My biggest grumpage with the whole thing is the assertion that just because one person has a belief, NOBODY else has the right to have an alternative belief and still be correct.  I'm absolutely convinced that neither PVS or Wood are like that, but that's my gripe with a lot of people in religious arguments.  What makes a Christian who 'truly believes' any more likely to be correct than a Hindu who 'truly believes', or an atheist who 'truly believes (that there's nothing out there)', or whatever?  Nada.  

So, in the immortal words of someone famous:  Can't we all just.... get along?






Here's a good word:

HENOTHEISM - the belief in the existence of one god, albeit tempered by the acceptance that there could conceivably be others.  

Go forth and henothise, my sons. ;)

[Wood]

I don't know ANYONE who, in the middle of a religious 'discussion' (and I tend to get stuck in a lot of them) suddenly says, "Good grief! You're right! I've been such a fool!". Just doesn't happen.

You're so right. I've been such a fool! ;)

No, really. You're right. It's why I hate 'em.

I'm absolutely convinced that neither PVS or Wood are like that, but that's my gripe with a lot of people in religious arguments.

Mine too. But then I'm a liberal. Half the time, I get fundamentalists accusing me of not being a Christian at all. What do I know?

So, in the immortal words of someone famous: Can't we all just.... get along?

Rodney King: where would we be without you?

You're the voice of reason, Simon.

Fourth time, then: truce (and end of discussion)?

Feel free to consider my last few posts as not having been made, and ignore them, if it'll help.  

[paulvonscott]

I agree totally that modern paganism is a new, religion, largely invented in the 20th Century.  I also believe that other religions are equally fictitious or grossly distorted by time, myth, misterpretation and mistranslation.  

Modern paganism, as I'm sure you may agree, while looking a bit made up, is just a valid religion as anything else.  Christianity at one point would have gone through the same process, with different factions, beliefs and interpretations.

While there hasn't been any organised Pagan religion, pagan beliefs, have been consistantly surpressed by the church and demonised.  Why do you think there is so little trace (though some odd local beliefs seem to have survived) of paganism?  Your religion destroyed it, demonised it, and persecuted people who looked like they may be dabbling in it.

My point, which I've been trying to make from the very start, is that all I'm saying is that it's possible to understand why someone has an anti-christian stance, based upon their experiences and what they've learnt.

[Oddboy]

I'm a little confused here....
are you saying that Pat Mills was raised & abused by these 'Christian Brothers'?

I don't see how it would be possible to avoid the usual anti-Millsian rants when discussing a Pat Mills story - BECAUSE Mills includes these same subjects as part of the story (in many cases instead of a story) almost every time...

"...which is off-putting if..."
My comment here may have sounded too infamatory, apologies if it did: I meant it as a very minor niggle, the same kind of annoyance I'd get if, say; an artist spelt a Judge's badge differently to to letter in the text - it doesn't really bother me - it's just eeksome.

I enjoyed all the Mills stories before I left 2000AD in the #800s but I haven't enjoyed many since I came back in the #1200s... As my back-prog reading fast approaches the point when I left I am interested to see if I can spot where (IMO) Mills "jumps the shark".
I'm reading Flesh: Legend of Shamana at the moment & I'm enjoying that more then the latest ABC Warriors story because it's exciting and has dinosaurs.
I do think Shadow Warriors is good, but not as good as "old" Pat.

[Wood]

I give up.

Paul, while I could argue further with you (and give you long and boring history lessons) I think it's best to say, OK, you win. Just drop it, All right? Drop it.

[Matt]

Whew, what a heavy thread! Better not mention Garth Ennis's True Faith, might start a riot, ableit a virtual one and with no property damage, well not unless someone slams their mouse down too hard in frustration.

[Oddboy]

Can I just say how hilarious it is that the thread started off entitled "make up my mind for me"?


*chuckle*