ABC Warriors - make up my mind for me

[paulvonscott]

"are you saying that Pat Mills was raised & abused by these 'Christian Brothers'?"

I wouldn't want to say anything about abuse at all, in fact I'd distance myself from that comment as much as possible, because it may mean things which didn't happen.  And would apologise to Pat Mills if that's what was thought.

I know from an interview that Pat Mills has had direct experience of these Christian Brothers.  I've read a little on how these organisations behaved, the norm was a harsh unpleasant treatment by people on the whole who probably thought they were doing the right thing.  All I'm saying is that if you'd had that experience, you're view of christianity might be (to say the least) coloured.  And I don't think any of us here has had that experience of christianity.

Personally I don't find it hard to understand Pat Mills' viewpoint, though of course I admit I may have misunderstood it.

I add this only as a clarification to Oddboy's point.  

Having seen the topmost post by Wood, I think I've failed to get across my point.  I appreciate religions have a non-stick coating arguement which means they aren't responsible for how they or any of their followers behave.

[Tiplodocus]

Somebody once came up to comedian Bill Hicks after a show and said "I'm a Christian and I was offended by the way you took the piss out of Jesus".

And he replied, "Then forgive me!"

;0)

[Wood]

All I'm saying is that if you'd had that experience, you're view of christianity might be (to say the least) coloured. And I don't think any of us here has had that experience of christianity.

But none of us disagree with this point, Paul.

[Wood]

OK. I formally absent myself from this discussion.

[paulvonscott]

I did try to just talk about just the strip, ABC Warriors.  I even orignally skirted around the whole christian thing.

But now I see these sorts of arguments and this argument in particular is going to appear on almost every Pat Mills thread that is going.  I am now resigned to the fact that everytime you start, I'll start.  I'm pretty sure I can live with that and am going to make no effort to avoid it, so if people want to bring it up, expect my usual ill informed rants to follow.

I fully appreciate I don't know all the historical details Wood, and you know a lot more about the subject of christianity, and I'm being simplitic or perhaps even just plain innacurate.

For the record, I enjoyed ABC Warriors, I don't have a problem with any of the things mentioned in the strip.  I appreciate some people do, though I don't understand how it's different from any other irreligious comment in today's irrreligious society.

I don't have a problem with pat mills, I don't worship pat mills as a god, I don't like OR dislike all of his work.  I don't care if people whisper that it had an uncredited invisible co-writer or one of the seemingly hundred other gripes and grudges people have with the man that seem to be brought to bear every time one of his stories is mentioned.  

I just enjoyed ABC Warriors, I enjoyed the art, enjoyed the story and the ideas.  Great!

[Oddboy]

Righty-ho Paul,
I had no idea of Pat's experiences with this group 'Christian Brothers' (I hadn't heard of them before, and have no knowledge of Pat Mills outside his printed stories & the infomation covered in TPO.)
As Tiplodocus rightly points out, forgiveness is key & I don't hold anything against Pat (apart from his (mis)use of "book"s as I've previously detailed!).

[longmanshort]

I'm afraid I kept out of this debate because I could see where it was going.

As a Christian, Mills' use of Christianity in his strips (however you perceive it) doesn't offend me, because I've heard it all before. Sadly, I manage to worship the same god as some awful feckers. In the end, it's MEANT to be a philosphy of faith, hope and love. As has been pointed out, the corrupting factor of it all is man's tendency to be nasty to his fellow man. I can't excuse what has been done in the name of the church in the past but people like that would have done the same whatever their religion, they remain - at heart - deeply twisted people who need some kind of excuse to quieten their natural conscience and justify their inhumanity.

Mills' views on Christianity are understandable if he was on the receiving end of the extremists who place too much emphasis on suffering as a path to godliness. Likewise, my housemate has spent years trying to get over the complexes that a Catholic upbringing left her with. Even low-level religious stupidity can leave you seriously screwed up.

This may sound kinda contradictory, but I hate bigots. I hate the way they leave me in an uncomparable rage whenever I see what they have done to people. I hate the way they take the word of my god - a philosphy of peace, love and tolerance - and use it to dehumanise, punish and torture people. And I hate the way that they get lumped in with me under the banner of 'christianity'.

You're right PVS, I can't just ignore the actions of the child molesters and the rapists, but it's not that cut and dry. Case in point: my dad is a methodist minister (don't ask). At one of his old chuches there was a man with a taste for young boys. Everyone had kept him away from the younger members of the church but as it turned out, he managed to abuse a young lad who was pretty unstable anyway. This man promised my dad that it wouldn't happen again. So what to do? Banish him from the church? But then he'd just go somewhere else and do it there. Report him? But everyone at the church knew he'd done it before and had chosen to forgive him and keep him away from the kids. He had two kids of his own that he hadn't touched. Their family would be ripped apart if he were sent down. But he chose to betray that forgiveness. That would leave most of the church's heirarchy open to prosecution for doing what they felt was the right thing at that time.

To forgive is divine and is the ultimate expression of humanity. The rule of nature is that you lash out, hurt the person that hurt you.
But to forgive is an act of love, not just for your persecutor but also for yourself. To forgive means that you reject the option of dehumanising that person and turning yourself into a ball of bitter hate or vengeful anger.

While I've heard the Hicks joke before, it kinda misses the point. Christ may have said 'Turn the other cheek' but that isn't license to abuse us. The idea was that by showing others our commitment to peace, we help to change their attitudes. My housemates are not Christians, nor have I ever attempted to convert them. I have explained my beliefs to them and they have explained theirs to me. They respect me for that and I respect them for the same. THAT'S what Jesus - and, coincidentally, allah - preach. Tolerence, peace and harmony.

I think what I'm trying to say is be watchful for bigots and, whatever their excuse, show them up for what they are - the ignorant.

I've rambled too long and gone off the subject. Aplogies to everyone but I just wanted to try and explain things a bit. It's great we can discuss things likes this on the board. Long may it continue.

Ta x

[longmanshort]

Having just re-read what I posted, I wanted to make sure PVS didn't think I was having a go at him. I managed to miss the bit where you very sensibly answered one of my points.

Apologies mate, no offence.

[Matt]

Sorry, but I cannot believe what I've just read. An older man within your fathers congregation  abused a youngboy and just because

a. he was sorry and
b. the kid was unstable anyway

nothing was done about it? The church just swept it under the carpet and made sure no one left their kids alone with the guy.  Shouldn't that have been reported to the police? I mean how many times could the guy say sorry before someone finally acted.

[longmanshort]

Apologies for the use of the word 'anyway'. It made it sound like an excuse, which it wasn't.

They did do something. They tried to sort it our without causing anymore pain particularly to the guy's kids. It wasn't a case of him putting on a goofy smile and saying 'Gee, I am soooo sorry'. It took a lot of heartache and consideration to do what they did. They didn't let him off or excuse what he did, they just tried to do the best. And no, running straight to the police WASN'T the best thing to do.

[Matt]

Well whoever thought being a vicar was just about coffee mornings and boring sermons couldn't be more wrong in that case.

[longmanshort]

"Well whoever thought being a vicar was just about coffee mornings and boring sermons couldn't be more wrong in that case"

It gets weirder, believe me.

[Matt Timson]

I can't say that I agree with sweeping such things under the carpet either- but that's a whole different argument.

I've said it before, and I'll bore you with it again.  Taking swipes at Christianity used to be seen as 'cool' and 'rebellious' because it really WAS a big deal if you did it.

For whatever reason, nobody seems to uphold blasphemy laws anymore (not where Christianity is concerned at any rate) and Christianity has become a soft target for washed up has beens who haven't realised that stories slagging off Christianity just aren't cutting edge any more.  They're old hat.  Annoying.  Or more often than not, just plain old crap.

I'm not going to sit around and defend my faith against people who abuse my religion, both by taking the piss out of it and by doing wrong and then hiding behind it, because I don't need to.  I believe in God (or a creator, at least), not churches.

We don't see stories based around the 'evils of Islam'- even though their human rights record is as least as bad as Christianity's and it'll be a long time before we do (and please- don't anybody bring up Snow/Tiger- it's not the same).  The reason you won't see those stories is because no editor at 2K would risk the backlash that ripping the piss out of Islam would create.

Isn't it about time that writers simply left religion alone?  Religion, or faith, means a lot to some people- in ways that the rest of us can never really understand- and it really ought to be respected.

Be honest with yourselves- how many of you who would happily take take the piss out of a Christian, would draw the line at doing the same to a Moslim?  I'm betting most of you.

Matt

[Slippery PD]

Matt

I agree with you.  However, christianity is mature religion.  Islam isnt.  By this I mean Islam is relatively young and is going through the same transitions now, that Christianity went through 200 or so years ago.  Destroying sects, fundamentalism, etc.

So its hard to judge the two together, when one is an adult and another is a teenager (using a really crap analogy).

Ive said before it difficult for us as westerners to judge other belief systems as we are indoctrinated into one.

Yer Slippity Dig

[Quirkafleeg]

Well I was a going to avoid this but...

What did your church do about the kid-fiddler? Presumably not taking him round the back the next Sunday and stoning him to death?

And... In a healthy society ALL groups and organisations no matter what sort should be exposed to critism.