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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 1742155 times)

Mister Pops

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18975 on: 03 March, 2022, 02:01:50 AM »
I think it’s good you keep reminding us that you don’t like government’s Shark. We might forget otherwise.

And attempts to discuss current events wouldn't be derailed while people try to grasp your weird philosophy

But it seems that governments have turned science into a religion, and far be it from me to encourage blasphemy...

Scientism has been around since the mid-to-late 20th century, and it wasn't any government's idea.

.. what science is supposed to do - ask questions and discuss results.

You have missed out about half a dozen steps there. Any eejit can ask a question.

Researching*, forming a hypothesis, establishing a null hypothesis, coming up with a methodology, designing a repeatable experiment, establishing the various possible errors, making measurements, drawing conclusions, and then going back to re-evaluate the whole shebang, is where the real work of science is done.

And you don't just discuss the results, you discuss the whole lot. It takes literally years of study to be able to do any of that in a meaningful way. And at the outset you won't even be studying a lot of science, you'll be studying mostly the maths that makes up the framework of a lot of scientific language.

Then at the end of all that, you'll have a lot of knowledge of a complex, but specific bit of science. From there you tend to get two schools of thought

1) I am able to grasp the very specific and complicated thing, therefore I can understand ANY complicated thing. I don't have to listen to experts, because I am an expert.

2) It was a lot of hard work grasping this specific and complicated thing, and I appreciate that others have worked just as hard to understand their complicated and specific thing, so I should probably defer to them.

I fall into 2), and I think scientific endeavours benefit from all the disciplines defering to each other, working together and supporting each other with their own wee bits of specialized knowledge. Scientific progress isn't made by charismatic geniuses smashing preconceptions. Ye get the occasional Newton or Einstein, but it's mostly thousands of unsung scientists chipping away at our preconceptions bit by bit with tools most of us can't really grasp. That needs to be coordinated by some sort of external body, that works on promoting collaboration both nationally and internationally, raising and distributing funds, building labs and so forth. A body that focuses on governing all of that so that the scientists can focus on science. Doesn't sound intrinsically evil to me.

Shark, the reason I'm half-drunkenly rattling this all out of my keyboard is in the hope that you'll understand that I don't think you're stupid when I say I think you're scientifically illiterate.

Science is really hard.

Most scientist have limited literacy in a specific language. I'm only well versed in one of its more obscure dialects and it took me half a decade to understand just that much. So when I nod along to the scientific consensus, it's not like religious faith, it's an understanding of just how ignorant I am, and that there's little chance I could sensibly contradict it without several years study.

Anyway I now return you to your scheduled program:



*google is not research
You may quote me on that.

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18976 on: 03 March, 2022, 03:15:42 AM »
You seem to have taken my view that "all governments are evil" means that "all members of all governments are evil," maybe because that interpretation is easier to argue against.

I'm sorry, but that's just bollocks because what you said was (my bolding):

It's long been my position that governments are nothing more than bands of criminals, all of them. They all lie, they all cheat, they all steal, they all treat their citizens like cattle, they're all thugs at heart.

I wish you'd stop saying one really extreme thing, then when people point out that it's extreme bollocks, you pretend it's not what you said, or you insert new words in-between the actual words you used to alter the meaning of what you said. How about you make the fucking effort to just say what you actually mean in the first place, without all the missing words and the obscure hidden meanings that nobody but you can decipher.

And even if you did mean "all governments in general are evil even though some individuals within said are not" (even though that's not what you said) - it's still just pontificating, over-generalized bullshit and all I hear when you say it is that you don't give a fuck about the suffering of ordinary people because you can't pull your head out of your arse about not being allowed to spin your Covid conspiracy theories all over the board. If it really means that much to you - stand up to the censors and have it at! Tell us your grand truth so that we may learn from you! They can silence you but they can never douse your spirit! Preach! Preach!

Mind you, at least you're not milstar and basically arguing that Putin's got every right to bomb innocent people because someone else did it before him at some point in history. Milstar - closet fascist. Or, wait - is that what you're arguing?
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milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18977 on: 03 March, 2022, 03:52:20 AM »
Funt, I'd take it if you had a very lousy day.

But don't imply that I am a fascist in the future.
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

sheridan

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18978 on: 03 March, 2022, 10:20:36 AM »

(snipping quite a bit)
Then at the end of all that, you'll have a lot of knowledge of a complex, but specific bit of science. From there you tend to get two schools of thought

1) I am able to grasp the very specific and complicated thing, therefore I can understand ANY complicated thing. I don't have to listen to experts, because I am an expert.

2) It was a lot of hard work grasping this specific and complicated thing, and I appreciate that others have worked just as hard to understand their complicated and specific thing, so I should probably defer to them.

I fall into 2), and I think scientific endeavours benefit from all the disciplines defering to each other, working together and supporting each other with their own wee bits of specialized knowledge.


I know a fair amount of scientists (including computer scientists, engineers, doctors (medical and non-medical), even a professor) and I'd say they all fall in to the second category.  The only people I've had contact with who would fall in to the first category would be, shall we say, armchair scientists...

sheridan

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18979 on: 03 March, 2022, 10:25:05 AM »
Funt, I'd take it if you had a very lousy day.

But don't imply that I am a fascist in the future.

Perhaps don't say things like this (couldn't decipher what your sentence was meant to mean, but it seems to be something about USA citizens taking up arms?)

What is ludicrous it seems propaganda machinery is firing on all engines, tough to believe what is what. Like allegedly (or not), a Russian projectile fell on an Israel memorial centre. True story. Then it fell on some 300 meters farther. True story.

But nobody to mention that US (and probably UK) faces shortage of lock n load ready people to serve in times of conflict (never said which though).

Saying Putin is bad however would sound hypocritical at least from our side and I am not ashamed stressing that our leaders are svim and NATO is bully. Maybe we should clean up our own yard first.

p.s. that thing about the missile - you're the only person I've heard say anything about that, so no idea what your point is.

Also - I'm going to say that "Putin is bad" - not sure how that makes me a hypocrite.

Mister Pops

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18980 on: 03 March, 2022, 11:12:27 AM »

(snipping quite a bit)

 armchair scientists...


Hey now, the fine men and women that study the science of armchairs are heroes and I'll brook no negativity towards them
You may quote me on that.

CalHab

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18981 on: 03 March, 2022, 11:29:36 AM »

(snipping quite a bit)

 armchair scientists...


Hey now, the fine men and women that study the science of armchairs are heroes and I'll brook no negativity towards them

Descriptions of their work are often couched in negative terms.

Proudhuff

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18982 on: 03 March, 2022, 11:45:42 AM »
Just don't get the Chippendales involved, they have now been discredited as armchair scientist.
DDT did a job on me

milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18983 on: 03 March, 2022, 12:52:33 PM »
Perhaps don't say things like this (couldn't decipher what your sentence was meant to mean, but it seems to be something about USA citizens taking up arms?)

p.s. that thing about the missile - you're the only person I've heard say anything about that, so no idea what your point is.

Also - I'm going to say that "Putin is bad" - not sure how that makes me a hypocrite.

The whole purpose behind my dribble is that we are swarmed by disinformation in the media, particularly regarding this conflict. no less I've seen the amount of contradictory informations than here. and since I am openly professed my disdain for our government activities in the times of covid (which seems that no one mentions now, while big man Boris and his cohorts host parties) and just in general, I think I could use my suspension of disbelief. I am not ashamed to admit that it may paint me as ignorant, at least, and arsehole, at worst. But being labelled as fascist is naive, at least, at worst - distasteful.

As for "Putin is bad", I could say a few things pro-him and anti-him here, but I'd rather stay neutral on affairs like this. Ofcourse, what is going on in Ukraine is terrible, but I think we personally have bigger problems to solve on our own. Besides, you can only be drag into mud if try, notwithstanding that outing someone as fascist/nazi today practically is effective as calling someone woke.



Quote
but it seems to be something about USA citizens taking up arms?)

not taking up their arms (at least not on their own), which is not remotely connected to Ukraine crisis (or maybe it is...?) I think I've already left the link on the topic here.
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18984 on: 03 March, 2022, 12:55:14 PM »

I agree with just about everything you say there, Mr P. I don't base my disagreements with certain elements of what I'm going to call politicised science on the workings of my own mighty brain (because it isn't) but on the brains of people with properly mighty scientific brains (for example, Kary Mullis, the Nobel Prize-winning inventor of the pcr technique - look for a 1996 interview with him on Youtube where he explains the religionization of science (amongst other things) far better than I ever could) who are ignored and/or ridiculed for bringing their own experience and expertise to bear if it doesn't agree with the political or corporate consensus.

I defer to experts like Mullis all the time, but not blindly (even you say we should "probably defer," which admits to the perfectly rational element of uncertainty). There has to be some level of personal diligence involved as well as trust, and it's often difficult to strike the right balance - especially in these polarizing times.

And yes, I freely admit that my own views on deference are coloured by my "weird philosophy" that governments lie, cheat, steal, collude, coerce and murder. I'm sure other people's views are coloured by their own "weird philosophies" as well.


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IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18985 on: 03 March, 2022, 01:30:14 PM »
Ofcourse, what is going on in Ukraine is terrible, but I think we personally have bigger problems to solve on our own.
A dictator on our doorstep has invaded a European country, has designs on bringing back into being the Russian Empire at its greatest extent, and has threatened at least two EU nations with massive repercussions if they don’t do what Russia wants regarding “security guarantees”.

At what point do we decide this isn’t a big problem? When Ukraine is partitioned? When Ukraine is subject to a genocide and full Russian takeover? When Russia follows its actions up by invading Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia? When there are inclusions into Polish and Finnish territory Putin believe are Russian? At what point do we draw a line?

Right now, the world is almost united. Four other countries]https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/3/unga-resolution-against-ukraine-invasion-full-text]Four other countries appear to fully back Russia right now. Even China is on the fence. If we do nothing, Europe will could be destabilised for decades. Perhaps it will be anyway, but going down without any kind of fight seems to be a curious way to respond.

Mudcrab

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18986 on: 03 March, 2022, 02:05:16 PM »
As for "Putin is bad", I could say a few things pro-him and anti-him here, but I'd rather stay neutral on affairs like this

Fucking neutral? Maybe you're not a fascist, but you're certainly a cunt!
NEGOTIATION'S OVER!

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18987 on: 03 March, 2022, 02:15:10 PM »

Such sparkling repartee. :-/

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IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18988 on: 03 March, 2022, 02:31:36 PM »
Please refrain from insulting other board members, Mudcrab.

CalHab

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18989 on: 03 March, 2022, 02:32:16 PM »
You can argue about the West's conduct on various issues, but taking a "neutral" stance when civilians are being shelled, starved and over a million people are forced to become refugees is abhorrent.