Sideshow Vote II: I should have made it in America

[broodblik]

One of the most popular British comics characters is Dredd. Dredd is an American but for some reason the Americas just do not either like or get the character. Why is this the case:
-   Wrong writers to portray the character. Try a British writer like Al Ewing to do the character until it can be established.
-   Well, the Americans are in love with their superheroes. It is almost like the only material that sells in the States.
-   Well, the Americans does do not get the satire behind the world of Dredd.
-   Wrong publisher who does not understand the character at all.
-   All off the above
-   Well, I believe they love Dredd
-   Something else like..............

[Colin YNWA]

 Something else like...

The American market just has so much more on offer and have been brought up with comics in the format of Dredd so the thrill has an up hill battle finding a foothold in a flood and richly varied market.

When the character is discovered they seem to be liked well enough.

[Huey2]

Quite often, it seems as if the question of Dredd's lack of success state-side is framed as if it's the Americans fault for not "getting it" or not understanding satire. Actually, the case is that there was a time when the Americans DID get Dredd and it WAS popular. The fact that it's success was so brief is not down to them.

Back in the 80s, I was an ex-pat kid living in the states. It was chancing across the Eagle reprints in a hobby store that got me into comics. Going into comic stores in Massachusetts and neighbouring states, I saw a  very healthy presence of all Eagle reprints and I can recall one of the owners telling my Dad that it was his biggest selling independent by far. - I do understand that this is a sample of one area of the US and may not be indicative of the whole of the country.

So what went wrong? Over-milking the cow.

1). Within 3 years, Dredd was pretty much drained through mini-series, maxi-series and the like. The appearance of Dredd: the Early cases was neatly summed up by Pat Mills as, "Dredd: scraping the bottom of the barrel.
2). As well as the Eagle reprints, other publications appeared. You could pick up Titan reprints, Best of 2000AD and copies of the prog. Sometimes you had the same stories appearing in 2 or 3 publications (eg). The Blood of Satanus for example got around a lot), sometimes you had stories split between publications (eg. Nemesis Book 2 appeared in the eagle but not Titan reprints, Book 4 appeared in the Titan reprints). So you had to choose one version and stick to it, knowing you were going to be missing key stories OR if you had deep pockets, buy them all and know that there was going to be a lot of doubling up.

And reason 3...
3). Quality. Before the end of the 3rd year, the Dredd Eagle reprints became Quality reprints. The difference was marked. Poorer quality reprints and taking Bolland off the covers certainly hurt.

For myself, I ended up getting the prog shipped over and getting chunks of back issues the same way. I don't know what choices others made but by the late 80s, Dredd was a very reduced presence and often absent.

For the other stabs post 80s, I think honestly it's been the quality of the new stuff that's being offered.
* Both Dredd films were IMHO pretty poor and not reflective of what Dredd was.
* The DC comics of Dredd bar the Wagner/Grant stuff was pretty poor and not reflective of what Dredd was.
* The (can't remember the publisher) Dredd comics of the '10s were - with a few exceptions - pretty poor and not reflective of what Dredd was.

Were Dredd launched with a decent monthly I genuinely think it would be absolutely fine.

[Richard]

Also he keeps his gun in a holster on his boot, and that's pretty stupid. We may turn a blind eye to that, but American not so much.

[AlexF]

I do think there's something inherently difficult about the idea of a main character who is often portrayed as a hero - but equally often as very nasty piece of work - that keeps Dredd from ever being totally mainstream, and not just in the US. Even in the UK, it's not as if everyone has even heard of Judge Dredd, let along read a story or knows what his deal is.

The word 'anti-hero' for me doesn't fit Dredd. Those characters are almost pointedly anti-establishment, while Dredd is, largely*, very pointedly PRO-establishment, its just that the establishment he supports is very wrong (with subtle hints of things that seem like they might be quite nice, actually, to the bad, right-wing parts of me that I wish to keep repressed).

So yeah, even though your Punishers and Wolverines and so on have mass appeal, Dredd is asking for another level of wish-fulfilment in fanstasy fiction.

Frankly, the bigger question might be why Strontium Dog or Nemesis the Warlock never made it big Stateside - to me, equally compelling story and characterwise as Dredd, but just a little easier to get behind (well with Nemsis that's until you get to Books 8 and 9 and he starts being more openly a bad guy)

*It's notable to me that the stories where Dredd is either VERY heroic (Cursed Earth, Apocalypse War) or where he's fighting against Justice Dept (Judge Cal, build up to Necropolis, Tour of Duty) are the most beloved Dredd stories.

[IndigoPrime]

I imagine it's a combination of factors. First, Huey2 is right in that the marketing and production of Dredd outside of the UK has varied and has too often been poor. I get that it won't always be our Dredd – and that's fine. The problem is whether the comics are objectively good. Almost nothing I saw from IDW got beyond that bar. The only real exceptions were the odd mini-series, usually by British and Irish creators.

There's also the positioning of the character and the world. Here's your figure, America, and it's fucking awful. I recall seeing reviews of Dredd from the US, where the reviewer seemed insulted that the USA's democracy could be portrayed in such a nasty fashion. They were upset at the 'throwaway' violence, even though Dredd was doing his job. Oddly, this same reviewers were fine with Deadpool's violence and collateral damage, seemingly because he was more quippy and not part of the state.

Beyond that, there are issues of lore. My wife has no interest whatsoever in reading Dredd, because she can't be arsed to read from the early strips but thinks she'll miss too much. With Dredd being (effectively) one long story, that can be intimidating. The reality, of course, is much closer to – I dunno –Usage Yojimbo. There's continuity, but it fundamentally doesn't matter that much. But from the outside, that isn't obvious.

It'll be interesting to see how the revised BO2K goes down and if that helps lift Dredd and 2000 AD in the US. (Those books also look like they could be rather nice for Brits who know the comic a bit and used to read it, but have since lapsed.)

[Proudhuff]

Well a lot of UK 'fans' don't get that he isn't a hero but a reflection of an ugly barbaric system, so lets not blame the Colonials for that. I think a lot of the problems were, and still are distribution.

[Huey2]

" My wife has no interest whatsoever in reading Dredd, because she can't be arsed to read from the early strips but thinks she'll miss too much. With Dredd being (effectively) one long story, that can be intimidating."

I guess a further factor is that those collections which are often presented as "new readers start here" are the most continuity heavy and usually only show one facet of what the strip can do.

Fortunately, we now have the best of John Wagner which shows the range of stories and art styles but also the majority of stories don't rely on knowledge of previous epics.

[IndigoPrime]

I'm not even sure that book is a great intro, TBH. Hard to know what is, mind.

[Dash Decent]

I still groan when I hear people trying to explain Judge Dredd with meaningless lines like "the city itself is a character!"  I remember watching a state-side interview (in a boat?) with two of the Rebellion crew.  When they trotted out that line, the interviewer naturally asked what they meant and they had no idea how to articulate it.  It's just an unhelpful, meaningless catchphrase.  I don't think that helps sell it or gets the idea across what it's about.

Another thing against 2000AD making waves is a lot of its ideas have already been stolen or done in similar ways.  If you made a "Strontium Dog" tv series, people would say "Western in space?  Firefly did that already!"  Blue-skinned Rogue Trooper?  "You're copying Avatar!" etc.  I know 2000AD, especially in the early years, can be derivative, formulaic, built on tropes, etc, but at 45 it has done a lot that younger audiences won't know of.

Thirdly, wasted movie opportunities.  If the Urban movie had less violence and language (and 3D), it would have got a wider audience, which would have given a bigger potential market for the comic.  Reading Dredd on the page doesn't give me the idea I'm reading an R-rated 'slay-ride".  I'm sure Disney are making Spiderman etc movies open to the widest audience possible.

[IndigoPrime]

I'd say Dredd was pitched just right. It was a love letter to more brutal and tight 1980s action flicks. It should have found an audience. Heck, it did find a big audience, but it happened too late.

In all, it was a victim of marketing and timing. The former was poor. The trailer was a shitshow. (I recall seeing the Japanese one years later and that was much, much better.) The timing was a big problem. The Raid got into cinemas first, despite entering production later. The 3D is one reason Dredd got funded in the first place and probably how it hit #1 in the UK, but it was also a hindrance. And at the time, cinema goers weren't primed for an adult-oriented violent comic movie of that ilk. Deadpool later suggested the basic formula works – although perhaps that it needed to be 'safer' in nature by hiding the violence behind quips and spandex.

The broader issue from a movie and comics standpoint is that Dredd is multi-faceted and surprisingly deep. We see that in the comic, when you switch from, say, a Wagner procedural to a Niemand human interest piece to a Williams 'Hollywood movie'. But on screen, you get a couple of hours and either have to choose (as Dredd did) or lose focus (as Judge Dredd did, which tried to be a little of everything and ended up a nothing).

I entirely agree about that city line. I get what they're aiming for in a broad sense – the city is so interesting that it can carry a lot of stories. But that's hardly unique to Dredd and it risks making people think the lead is a cypher, when the reality is he's kind of a straight man among chaos. It also for me hints at a dated view of Dredd, because post-Pit, the city itself has felt far less manic and cartoonish.

[broodblik]

You have the weekend to decide how to make it in America

[broodblik]

Voting Closed

Let's say it is due to the quality of material