“Truth? You can't handle the truth!”

[The Legendary Shark]

Are you also suggesting that even more live fire in a crowded nightclub full of panicking people would have resulted in fewer deaths? Are you actually parrotting the NRA's 'good guy with a gun' fantasy?

I love your straw-man arguments, Jim. If everyone in the nightclub had been armed, then it could have been far worse with all the panic and crossfire (the Hollywoodisation of this argument you seem to be going for). Untrained security apes-with-guns, probably the same. Trained security - who knows? Stopping the guy at the door would be the best option. Carrying out security procedures such as evacuation if he gets inside, a less good option. Carrying out security procedures such as "ambushing" the invader at certain predetermined locations, less good still. A single well-aimed shot from a trained marksman as a last resort should the invader actually open fire, not ideal.

Waiting for somebody to actually start shooting in a crowded room before calling 911 is, surely, the very worst of all the possible options.

[The Legendary Shark]

He approaches the club, he opens fire on the door guards before they've registered that he's a threat. He steps over the bodies and opens fire inside the club.

Oh God - you're right! Professional security firms will have absolutely no way of coming up with any kind of defence against such an eventuality! They'll just sit around waiting to be shot at like everyone else! Nothing at all can be done!

[Jim_Campbell]

Waiting for somebody to actually start shooting in a crowded room before calling 911 is, surely, the very worst of all the possible options.

It wasn't a straw man. Your position was unclear, so I asked you a question. You can tell I was asking you a question because it's a sentence directed at you with a question mark at the end of it.

You've clarified it to that extent, but still seem unwilling to engage with the fact that 'good guys with guns' in any scenario, will always be reacting to the initiation of violence by bad guys with guns. When those guns are assault weapons, the reacting party is very like to be dead long before they've had the opportunity to take any sort of useful action.

[Frank]

If you'll read my first comment on this tragedy, you'll see I was actually placing the onus on the club itself. Had it, unilaterally or as part of a local group of businesses, been responsible for hiring professional and armed private police then the response time would very probably have been much quicker.

Mateen was immediately met with an armed response from a trained professional employed by the venue. That's why he hid in the restroom, rather than continuing to mow down patrons indiscriminately:

I would love to see a world where nobody had to carry a weapon to defend themselves, I guess we all would, but that's an increasingly fantastic scenario.

Where do you live? I've seen someone with a gun three or four times in my life, and they were hunting rabbits, rather than the most dangerous game.

There have been three spree shooting incidents in my lifetime, and the few lethal terrorist attacks by radical Islamist terrorists in the UK have been a bomb attack on public transport and an off-duty soldier being run over by a car from behind. Supposing EVERYONE in each incident was armed, nobody would have been able to stop them.

[Jim_Campbell]

Oh God - you're right! Professional security firms will have absolutely no way of coming up with any kind of defence against such an eventuality! They'll just sit around waiting to be shot at like everyone else! Nothing at all can be done!

Now, this is a straw man, because that's not what I said. And, for the record, there isn't much defence against a direct hostile attack other than to hope you aren't killed immediately (mitigated by body armour), seek cover, return fire, and hope back-up arrives.

So, now we have armed and armoured guards on the doors of nightclubs. Please note, that it's your rejection of my suggestion that reducing the number of guns in the original scenario rather than increasing them which is leading us down this hypothetical route.

Incidentally, I think I preferred the Hippy Conspiracy Theorist Shark to Shark 2.0, who now seems to side with the sort of libertarian interests and right-wing establishments that Shark 1.0 would have railed against.

[The Legendary Shark]

Oh God - you're right! Professional security firms will have absolutely no way of coming up with any kind of defence against such an eventuality! They'll just sit around waiting to be shot at like everyone else! Nothing at all can be done!

Now, this is a straw man, because that's not what I said. And, for the record, there isn't much defence against a direct hostile attack other than to hope you aren't killed immediately (mitigated by body armour), seek cover, return fire, and hope back-up arrives.

So, now we have armed and armoured guards on the doors of nightclubs. Please note, that it's your rejection of my suggestion that reducing the number of guns in the original scenario rather than increasing them which is leading us down this hypothetical route.

Incidentally, I think I preferred the Hippy Conspiracy Theorist Shark to Shark 2.0, who now seems to side with the sort of libertarian interests and right-wing establishments that Shark 1.0 would have railed against.

Apologies. After our previous arguments I do tend to overreact to you, which is my bad.

The reaction to the initiation of violence is not too clear. What constitutes the initiation of violence? Is it when the armed invader first attempts to gain access (I would say yes) or when the shooting starts?

There is also a place for security cameras. Say the nightclub (for example) owner (through his private security company) spots a person with an assault rifle walking towards the venue: the guards on the door would be informed in advance, the simple expedient of locking the doors until the supposed invader had gone might be enough (this act, locking the doors, is reaction). Reaction is not necessarily a bad or tardy thing - the whole point is when that reaction occurs. Better react sooner than later, I say.

State monopolisation of policing cannot help but encourage any reaction to be too late.

[Eric Plumrose]

Club Shooter was Gay (?)

Truth, lie or obfuscation? It's so hard to tell these days. Does it really matter in the end, though? All those dead human beings. Tragic.

Then why even suggest there's something else going on? Three days, Sharky. That's how long it's been and barely time at all to conduct an official investigation.

And even if Pulse's security hadn't been armed, so the fuck what?

[Jim_Campbell]

Better react sooner than later, I say.

Pre-emptively?

State monopolisation of policing cannot help but encourage any reaction to be too late.

The relative lack of gun violence in places like the UK and Australia suggests very strongly that my position in this respect is far more likely to have the desired outcome than yours.

[The Legendary Shark]

Butch, I'm talking about an organised private policing company, not some random officer working as a glorified bouncer on his day off.

And yes, you're right, it isn't an "increasingly fantastic scenario" - that was a bit too much hyperbole, even for me. (Although, if one pays attention to the MSM they do tend to ramp up the threat.) I live in rural Lancashire and see people with guns all the time - for hunting and sport. In all my 50 years I've only known of one shotgun murder in my village - when I was a teenager a guy shot his wife to death for being unfaithful to him - and a couple of suicides. Given the number of guns around here, that's not bad.

People mostly know not to shoot one another. If you grow up around guns, as I did, this gets drilled into you all the time. In my opinion, people should be taught about guns and gun safety in school. Learning about guns from Call of Duty is, in my opinion, a recipe for disaster - like learning about road safety from Grand Theft Auto.

[The Legendary Shark]

The relative lack of gun violence in places like the UK and Australia suggests very strongly that my position in this respect is far more likely to have the desired outcome than yours.

Who says it's an either/or situation? There is no chance that the state is going to give up its police any time soon and, despite how I might come across, I don't think everything the state police do is evil, corrosive or bad for society (just most of it ).

There is a place for private police working alongside state police. Indeed, allowing professional private police services in some areas would help the state police.

[Satanist]

What the actual fuck am I reading here! 

[Hawkmumbler]

I can't help but feel this is Sharky whenever something doesn't work out in his imaginary world where everyone pays voluntary tax and people with sociopathic tendencies still know not to use guns.

[Frank]

Say the nightclub (for example) owner (through his private security company) spots a person with an assault rifle walking towards the venue: the guards on the door would be informed in advance ...

Kevin West said he recognised Mateen outside the club and said hi. West mentioned Mateen had a strange look in his eyes, which he thought suspicious, but not that he was wielding an AR-15.

Presumably, Mateen concealed the weapon underneath a jacket - the bushmaster's about the length of the average torso:

[The Legendary Shark]

Then why even suggest there's something else going on? Three days, Sharky. That's how long it's been and barely time at all to conduct an official investigation.

That's a very good point, Eric. The MSM does it all the time. The first page on this story, which I searched for at random, was this one. It begins with the following words: "ISIS has claimed responsibility..." It doesn't begin with facts, eyewitness or police accounts. It begins with a claim.

[The Legendary Shark]

What the actual fuck am I reading here! 

A discussion about how such tragedies might be avoided in the future.

Hawkie, how dare you. I don't shout at clouds - even I know they're too high up to hear me and, besides, very few of them speak English.