2000 AD Online Forum

Well he's done it before but in his latest blog post Pat Mills confirms that he's moving away from 2000ad

https://www.millsverse.com/who-dares-whinges/ (https://www.millsverse.com/who-dares-whinges/)

Many have looked at the signs and seen this coming for a while but his is the first time (I believe) he's confirmed it publically himself. There's much to digest here.

We all owe Uncle Pat so much.

His work is historically so strong and important, but is his current work going to be missed (I'll miss some, not others).

Is this the right time for this to happen, if not the best way? Are both parties ready for something different and new?

Its a real shame that after the latest Slaine - one assumes - though who knows what else is lined up already - that's all we'll get from Pat from for a while at least. There's stories that have been running for a while that deserve to be wrapped up if they are done.

Mind all that said I think we've been here before and is this a case of just being patient until a solution is found. Doesn't feel like it now, but who knows.

Anyway thanks for all the great work Pat Mills, good luck with Spacewarp (oh for a physical release!) and fingers crossed you are Tharg will meet again.

I have always enjoyed his work but off late it is almost like he has run out of ideas. Everything feels like  a rehash from previous series, same themes, same story-lines but nothing new.

I bought Spacewarp, but do not expect something different from his work he did the prog. I will be honest and I did not enjoy it at all (I will still give it another go with phase 2). Still looking forward to the new Slaine saga. All the Slaine stories I have enjoyed even The Brutania Chronicles.

I was a massive fan of Mills back in the day, but for me it with went wrong after the Black Hole Mission, after The Horned God.

In more recentish times, I enjoyed the Clint Langley Slaine. Most surprisingly (to me) the series I have most enjoyed is Savage - I prefer stories about characters with something odd about them, but Bill Savage was just a very angry man. I will miss that series a lot.

Regards,

Robin

If that's correct, and Pat Mills has done his last work for 2000AD, then its a sad way for someone so vital to its history to leave.

QuoteNothing's changed since that memo. In fact, in some respects, the situation is worse today.

Reading the article it is a little difficult to work out what his issue is at present.  He's citing a memo from, what 30 years ago?  Yet claiming that the issues still prevail.  Is he suggesting that Rebellion are continuing some of these practices?

Then there is another comment:

QuoteA comic for readers of ALL ages, rather than adults.

I wonder if this is where some of the issues lie?  I mean, I get the point on one level.  A lot of us have been reading tooth for decades.  Some of us are even facing retirement.  Then again it feels like a bit of a swipe.

There is a lot in that blog post that raises questions about what he is saying. 

As is usual, I find myself agreeing with Pat's general stance, but scratching my head at some of the conclusions - as with many conspiracy theories, the best way to break through that thinking is to realise that "it isn't all about you".

The idea Steve MacManus sent the memo to Pat to create a "fall guy" seems ludicrous even before you know anything about Steve's attempts to try andd push for these rights? Couldnt he have just been trying to get Pat to see there was an opportunity to make some headway?  Would they really need a "fall guy" to have come up with the idea that once one person got copyright, they'd all want it? I mean, it's not rocket science.  Let Alan get his, then push for yours - like the Terra Meks, set a precedent, but this time make it stick as the norm.

Despite that frustration with some of Pat's conclusions, Sanders really does not come across well there - no one was asking for advances for their work were they?  Just money at the other end from reprints etc. It strikes me as odd Pat didnt take Sanders up on his offer of "if any contributors can show me what they want" by explaining the European model to him? 

Sanders is surprisingly unprofessional with his swipes at Alan Grant and (Robin?) Smith as well as Alan Moore, who he explicitly asks to be shown this memo calling him a whinger (again it will be interesting to read his book to get his side).

But he does seem open (albeit begrudgingly) to some sort of deal (hence Crisis a short time after this?).  At this stage, it looks like they have won the argument, if not the war.  Moore walked away (I wonder why he didnt go to see Sanders) Wagner took his pile of merch in and Pat did what?  He is right about Divide and Conquer, but you can't help but feel that the door was starting to inch open from that memo.  That said, Toxic hardly dispelled Sanders idea that creators would be at each others throats if they tried to do things their own way. What if Moore, Wagner and Mills had got together and confronted Sanders en masse instead?  Maybe Toxic (or a version thereof) could have been published via IPC and maybe still around today

On the broader point of Pat walking away from 2000AD, that is a very sad day. Unlike some on the board, I still find much to love in modern Pat and with Wagner in mostly retirement, it was still his work that primarily links me to my love of the comic and interest in any given prog (a Defoe, Savage or Slaine lifting my enjoyment and reminding me why I love the comic in the first place)

If Pat can make Space Warp work for himself and the other creators, all power (I'll pick it up when it is physical) - given Wagner found self publishing Rok a bit of a roller coaster, I find it hard to see SW being more of a draw, but maybe it IS a football thing making Rok a hard sell!

There's a lot to unpack. Personally, I've not really enjoyed much by Mills for a long time. Savage is mostly pretty good, but has some terrible character moments. Too much of his work is dripping in Ickeian conspiracy theory. And strips like ABC Warriors are like the background to a children's cartoon, looping and looping before your eyes. He'll argue the lack of ownership is why the ABC Warriors have got back together a million times; that doesn't seem to stop, say, Dan Abnett constantly trying new things.

Sláine is more of an odd one. I couldn't give a toss about anything after Horned God, up until Books of Invasions arrived. That felt like a real return to form in all the right ways, but then it all went off the boil again in the follow-up, with its ALL-CAPS SHOUTY NONSENSE. The lack of wrap-up for Savage will be a pity, mind. Still, it's not like other 2000 AD stories haven't just stopped, and perhaps Savage's war was never really designed to end.

As for everything else, I do get where Mills is coming from. I work in publishing. I have sold on rights, in a manner that was writer-hostile, to pay bills. It's shit when you're exploited. But. I also did that fully knowing the business proposition being made, and it's just the standard in the industry. WFH is standard in British and US comics too. There are outliers, but complaining that you've had to give away your rights seems like an odd one. If that's a problem, why stick with 2000 AD until now? Why now pen something for Image? Or why not approach 2000 AD with the idea for a creator-owned series, of which there are several?

That memo, I think, gets to the heart of this, in that publishers do a lot of the legwork. So if you ditch that business model, the creator is left having to market their property, and deal with a slew of logistics. Mills is doing that now with Spacewarp, of course, and I hope he finds that to his liking. But this comes with much greater risk—not least in the current COVID era.

I have a lot of respect for Mills's work in creating 2000 AD. Without him, the comic wouldn't exist. He was a key figure in shaking up the industry, and providing a foundation that also helped revolutionise US comics. (Although I also do feel his story sometimes overshadows others who were also instrumental in the success of the Prog and beyond.) I'm less keen on airing dirty laundry, and the conflation of past and present; all those little digs at Rebellion and upset about payments from the partwork (stuff like that never pays well), and so on.

It'll be interesting to see what Matt Smith does. John Smith's properties were dished out, to varying degrees of success. To my mind, Aleš Kot's Devlin Waugh is the only one so far that really gets the voice of the original. (Kek-W's Indigo Prime came close.) But it'd be a brave editor that gave someone else Savage, Sláine, or ABC Warriors, given that they have been almost entirely written by one person since the very beginning.

Finally, on the notion of creating a comic for all ages, rather than adults: that's a fair point regarding 2000 AD. But then there's a reason 2000 AD still exists: it grew with its core market. Given the current state of the newsstand, I think it's naïve to think 2000 AD would definitely still be here if it hadn't shifted, _especially_ given the lurch towards lad mag bollocks it made years back, severing its link with children's comics. A reversion then would probably have killed the comic. But it also feels ironic that Mills seems pissed off about the all-ages thing when Rebellion's doing Regened and bringing back old IP for comics that are seemingly aimed at a Phoenix-age audience.

Then again, it also somewhat feels like Spacewarp is a place for Mills do just do whatever he wants, in the manner he wants to (including some fairly problematic language regarding inclusivity). Still, all power to him for putting his money where his mouth is. It's a brave move. But if he has now set fire to his old house, he can't act surprised should he later need to return and all he finds are ashes.

Quote from: Leigh S on 19 August, 2020, 09:55:07 AMno one was asking for advances for their work were they?

I don't think Sanders was even against that, reading that memo. He's just saying the markets aren't the same—and he at the time was right. Things are of course more muddled now. And, yes, did Mills return with a plan? If not, why not?

QuoteI find it hard to see SW being more of a draw

I suspect Mills has a market here with people who wish 2000 AD looked and read like it did in 1977. That's where he's going with this, to some extent, with an attempt to then have parents rope in kids. And there surely is a gap in the market. As much as I love The Phoenix, it is very safe and quite middle-class in nature. There's no grit. That's fair enough—that's the comics tone, pitch and voice. But it does leave a space for something else. The question is how big that space happens to be and whether it can be successfully exploited, not least with a publication that's unproven, that has an unknown frequency (we already hear how frustrated kids are that the next Cor/Buster won't rock up 'next month'), and that is ultimately written by a single writer.

Quote from: Tjm86 on 19 August, 2020, 08:51:38 AM

QuoteNothing's changed since that memo. In fact, in some respects, the situation is worse today.

Reading the article it is a little difficult to work out what his issue is at present.  He's citing a memo from, what 30 years ago?  Yet claiming that the issues still prevail.  Is he suggesting that Rebellion are continuing some of these practices?

Thing is, it doesn't seem to have stopped him writing a great deal for 2000AD. His American work seems to have been mostly co-authored and dates from the 90s, while his last work on Requiem Vampire Knight (any good?) was around 2011/12. I assume other companies weren't offering what he wanted, either. Or he wasn't offering them what they wanted to publish. Or, given his tendency to air his grievances in public, other publishers weren't prepared to take a risk on him.

Regards,

Robin

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 19 August, 2020, 10:01:35 AM
I suspect Mills has a market here with people who wish 2000 AD looked and read like it did in 1977. That's where he's going with this, to some extent, with an attempt to then have parents rope in kids. And there surely is a gap in the market. As much as I love The Phoenix, it is very safe and quite middle-class in nature. There's no grit. That's fair enough—that's the comics tone, pitch and voice. But it does leave a space for something else. The question is how big that space happens to be and whether it can be successfully exploited, not least with a publication that's unproven, that has an unknown frequency (we already hear how frustrated kids are that the next Cor/Buster won't rock up 'next month'), and that is ultimately written by a single writer.

I think the single writer may not be so much a problem as the "linked universe" concept of the comic itself making it very much "Pat's thing"  - You couldn't just parachute Rok of the Reds or another of John's "book of ideas" characters into Space Warp as far as I can tell?  You could get another writer writing their own story, but how tied into the "Warp" concept would any given tale neeed to be?   It hardly makes SW a good model in that regard, but as you say, I think Pat is just doing his own thing and again, all power to him for that. 

The frequency though, that could be the killer.  You'd need 1000s of readers to make it viable on say a monthly basis - The Rok KS got 350 or so backers? Even with double that, you are making a four figure sum before costs.  How do you grow your audience without advertising, getting product into shops etc?

How many of these models Pat applied to Spacewarp is still active and for how long a period? I get it that we want the creators to get their fair share. Creating a model that is sustainable, profitable and the published material is on a regular base is the problem. One of the annoying parts for me about the model like Spacewarp is that I must wait an extended time for the next issue. By the time the next issue is released I forgot about it.

The next issue I can see with his model is that just imagine your most popular title one of the creators wants more and do not want his creation to be published anymore. What will AD be without Dredd?

We also must be realistically as well; eventually Pat or any creator will either move on to something different or retire. This was bound to happen.

I haven't felt that Uncle Pat's heart has really been in it for some time now and this is due to rights. Rebellion have kept 2000AD going but it is true that the old model of denying creators the rights has not changed. Why would a creator work their socks off if they are not going to have ownership. If you write a novel you have ownership not the publisher. It stinks that this practice still exists in comics. & I agree 2000AD is a comic for middle aged white men. They have given up trying to attract new young readers apart from half-arsed attempts at regen issues which appear infrequently & must confuse young readers who buy them only to find that the very next issue is completely different with, as will be the case with the next regen, a return to stories that are part way through! Good luck to Pat in his future endeavours. I wonder if we will see Slaine killed off? Would anyone dare to take on the character?

QuoteWhy would a creator work their socks off if they are not going to have ownership

Except that they all have, including Pat, for 43 years.

QuoteRequiem Vampire Knight (any good?)

It's absolutely brilliant, but unfinished.

I do wonder whether the recent spate of assigning new creators to legacy characters has undermined Pat's relationship with Rebellion. It's always been something he's been nervous about, back to the old days when he would be anti-fanzine because he thought it was a training ground for his replacement, and seeing how brutally John Smith was treated must have raised hackles.

Quote from: Richard on 19 August, 2020, 11:04:03 AM


Except that they all have, including Pat, for 43 years.

I didn't say they hadn't I asked why they would. & we don't know what other stuff they have 'up their sleeve' that they are holding on to because they want ownership. Or indeed how hard they would work on these other projects.

Quote from: Richard on 19 August, 2020, 11:04:03 AM

QuoteRequiem Vampire Knight (any good?)

It's absolutely brilliant, but unfinished.

Thanks. Given the date of the last volume, I'm going to assume it unlikely it will ever be.

Regards,

Robin

Quote from: Will Cooling on 19 August, 2020, 11:07:39 AM
I do wonder whether the recent spate of assigning new creators to legacy characters has undermined Pat's relationship with Rebellion. It's always been something he's been nervous about, back to the old days when he would be anti-fanzine because he thought it was a training ground for his replacement, and seeing how brutally John Smith was treated must have raised hackles.

Sorry, Don't want to derail the thread, but just wondering what happened with John, as I'm a massive fan of his work. Since I've been back reading, I've been a bit disappointed to not see his work, and been strange seeing some of his creations be assigned to new writers.

Quote from: judgeurko on 19 August, 2020, 11:15:02 AM

Quote from: Richard on 19 August, 2020, 11:04:03 AM


Except that they all have, including Pat, for 43 years.

I didn't say they hadn't I asked why they would. & we don't know what other stuff they have 'up their sleeve' that they are holding on to because they want ownership. Or indeed how hard they would work on these other projects.

I think if you have a living to make, you probably don't keep things up your sleeve for long, unless you can afford to.

Regards,

Robin

Quote from: Leigh S on 19 August, 2020, 09:55:07 AM
Sanders is surprisingly unprofessional with his swipes at Alan Grant and (Robin?) Smith as well as Alan Moore, who he explicitly asks to be shown this memo calling him a whinger (again it will be interesting to read his book to get his side).

This is a very wordy thread so I may come across the answer further down, but I was stuck between whether Grant and Smith referred to Alan Grant and Robin Smith or Grant Morrison and John Smith (seem like the most reasonable pairings of the two names).

Quote from: Rately on 19 August, 2020, 11:17:46 AM
Sorry, Don't want to derail the thread, but just wondering what happened with John, as I'm a massive fan of his work. Since I've been back reading, I've been a bit disappointed to not see his work, and been strange seeing some of his creations be assigned to new writers.

This was discussed in another thread and best not to derail this thread (unless somebody has the link to hand).  Suffice to say, John has gone through a very bad period in his life meaning he couldn't work while Rebellion had a few episodes they'd paid for but couldn't do much with unless somebody else completed.  Bit more complicated than that but there are no real winners and further discussion would upset those involved.

Quote from: judgeurko on 19 August, 2020, 10:59:14 AMIf you write a novel you have ownership not the publisher.

That depends entirely on the contract. You might retain rights. You might not. You might retain some rights, but leave some permanently with the publisher. Comics have variable rights, too, but as I said earlier in the thread, there's a big risk/reward balance for both creator and publisher. There's nothing to stop writers approaching Rebellion with author-owned properties and giving Rebellion first-publication rights and nothing more. But at that point, they're going to get much less back from Rebellion. That's the way the publishing industry works.

QuoteI agree 2000AD is a comic for middle aged white men. They have given up trying to attract new young readers apart from half-arsed attempts at regen issues which appear infrequently & must confuse young readers who buy them only to find that the very next issue is completely different with, as will be the case with the next regen

Yep—Regen is not ideal. But you know what? It's something. It's Rebellion attempting to get young readers in. And those issues are the biggest sellers. To go from that to an ongoing publication, though, is a massive, massive risk under ideal economic circumstances—a six-figure (or more) punt. In a world of COVID, it would be madness.

QuoteI wonder if we will see Slaine killed off? Would anyone dare to take on the character?

I'm not sure anyone should, frankly. Sláine is too iconic—too Mills. I'd be interested to see what a writer who isn't bored could do with ABC Warriors though.

Quote from: Will Cooling on 19 August, 2020, 11:07:39 AMI do wonder whether the recent spate of assigning new creators to legacy characters has undermined Pat's relationship with Rebellion.

I don't see why, given that it only really happened with Flesh, and that was a pre-Rebellion blip. It's not like Rebellion has ever 'given' his characters to anyone else to write.

Quoteand seeing how brutally John Smith was treated must have raised hackles

Smith was non-communicative at the best of times. From what's been aired in public, he went through a terrible and distressing period. But also, he stopped halfway through a series, and didn't communicate at all with the editor. I don't remember the exact timescale, but seem to recall it was 18 months or so before Matt Smith figured John Smith just wasn't going to finish the strip—and be mindful, completed work is a big hole in your budget on a modern comic; so he reassigned the strip.

I've no idea what happened after that point. John seemed to give his blessing to other people playing in his sandpit, while being not terrible impressed by the first chunk of non-JS Devlin Waugh. Personally, I still hope there might be some kind of relationship there. I'd much prefer JS-penned Indigo Prime over anyone else tackling that property. But I think it's a bit much to refer to Rebellion's handling of the situation as "brutal", based on everything that's in the public record. Similarly, I don't think Mills has been handled particularly badly—just in a standard fashion for the industry. Should that be better? Probably. But then Mills could have pitched ideas to Image and others. There's no reason why he had to stick to 2000 AD for all these years.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 19 August, 2020, 09:55:58 AM
I work in publishing. I have sold on rights, in a manner that was writer-hostile, to pay bills. It's shit when you're exploited. But. I also did that fully knowing the business proposition being made, and it's just the standard in the industry.

The thing is, it isn't just publishing what this applies.  As a teacher I've created lesson resources for our department during school time as a result of direction from on high.  Consequently they are considered the 'property' of the school.  If that is something I don't want to happen then I do it on my own time.  The simple fact of the matter is that exploitation is commonplace across pretty much every sector.

I do not think we will ever get to a point where we have a model working with ownership of material. This can only work in a world where each party respect each other. Copyright and ownership is like world-peace an almost unattainable reality.

Mills has every right to renegotiate the terms of his own labor, but regarding "Pat knew the deal" for his work for hire material, I think the point - made not just by Pat but by various creators' unions and guilds over the last few decades - is that he didn't, because how his work is monetised has changed in a way he was not aware of as being possible when he signed his contract, IE: US screenwriters didn't know home media platforms were just around the corner waiting to exploit their work all over again, so they withdrew their labor and renegotiated with media companies to remunerate writers for work they did decades before.
That, of course, was a renegotiation of residuals rather than property rights, but there's precedent in the comics industry of creators suing for the return of their characters - albeit with various degrees of success depending on whether you're Neil Gaiman or Joe Shuster.

I would say the absence of at least one regular Mills strip in the Prog for the past year or so is one of the reasons I haven't enjoyed reading 2000AD as much as I used to.
Don't get me wrong, TMM (Too Much Mills) in any one Prog can also feel excessive - the right balance of either ABC Warriors / Slaine / Savage / Defoe taking one of the slots hits just the right balance.

Whats the cliff notes on this anyway?
The forthcoming Slaine series with Leonardo Manco will be his last 2000AD work?

I guess in an ideal world creators would get paid well for the work they produce and retain rights, but it sounds like the economic reality doesn't allow for that. I think that is what Sanders' memo was trying to say. I have to say I am shocked at how badly written it is (in terms of the phrasing used).

As for Pat, I am very quick to acknowledge his contribution to 2000AD and count Nemesis, Slaine and ABC Warriors in my top 5 strips. But that is largely on the strength of the early parts of those strips, ignoring the approximately the latter half of each one.

In his blog Pat says the reason the standard on Spacewarp is so high is because the creators own their own work and get a share of the profits. The corollary of that, is when that doesn't apply, the work submitted won't be of a high standard. If that is the case, personally I find that disappointing, but maybe that explains why Slaine and ABC Warriors recent strips have not matched their early stories.

The lack of ownership doesn't seem to stop Dan Abnett from doing stellar work.

So let's see how Spacewarp goes. I wish Pat well in it. If he can't make it work, I can't see how anyone else could. As for Work For Hire, something like 2000AD provides a platform for creators to do work and get paid for it. It would be great if the rate was higher, but I guess the circulation of 2000AD doesn't allow for that. There aren't many creators with the ability to launch their own comic and make it a commercial success taking all production, marketing, distribution and retail costs into account.

Spacewarp is an interesting beast. It 'feels' great, but for me the execution of the strips is variable. I also think that having the stories be deliberate first episodes for all is a mistake given how long the time will be between phases.

The closest thing to what Pat is talking about (that I'm aware of currently) is the apparent runaway success of the '77. Again, a flawed beast but I thought the second issue was much stronger than the first and if the team are able to maintain this level of growth I think it could become something pretty essential.

Pat Mills had a very big influence on me at an impressionable age, and I very much wish him all the best in his post-2000 AD ventures. I returned to the prog two years ago after an absence of 27 years so I don't have the perspective of his recent work for 2000 AD that others do, but I very much enjoyed the recent Defoe and the reprints in the floppy, and I bought the Books of Invasions Ultimate Collection volumes and thought they were great too. So from that sample, my impressions were that he's still very much "got it". I'll be checking out his new comic when I've cleared my reading backlog a bit.

I guess then we'll still be getting the delayed Slaine series that was meant to start a few months ago and that will be it?

I'd be happy, though, if all his 2000 AD characters were retired, if Pat's not around to write them. We've had so many great new strips recently: The Out, Proteus Vex, Full Tilt Boogie, Thistlebone etc. I'd rather we had more of those or other new strips than someone else doing Savage, Slaine, ABC Warriors etc. And I want to see what happens in more established ongoing fayer like Deadworld, Grey Area, Kingmaker, Kingdom and like without huge time gaps between series, so retiring some stuff would probably be a good idea as there are a lot of 2000 AD story plates spinning, some of which, like Scarlett Traces, just kinda stopped mid-narrative.

Let's embrace the new, as that's what a sci-fi anthology should be about.

Quote from: MumboJimbo on 19 August, 2020, 12:52:24 PM
I'd be happy, though, if all his 2000 AD characters were retired, if Pat's not around to write them. We've had so many great new strips recently: The Out, Proteus Vex, Full Tilt Boogie, Thistlebone etc. I'd rather we had more of those or other new strips than someone else doing Savage, Slaine, ABC Warriors etc. And I want to see what happens in more established ongoing fayer like Deadworld, Grey Area, Kingmaker, Kingdom and like without huge time gaps between series, so retiring some stuff would probably be a good idea as there are a lot of 2000 AD story plates spinning, some of which, like Scarlett Traces, just kinda stopped mid-narrative.

I also do not want someone else to continue with his creations. If it is the end then let it be. As you already mentioned we had some great new stuff recently and let us see more of those.

Yes I agree. I don't want to see other writers take on any of Pat's strips. Just leave them alone and do other new stuff instead.

Quote from: broodblik on 19 August, 2020, 12:29:29 PM
I do not think we will ever get to a point where we have a model working with ownership of material. This can only work in a world where each party respect each other. Copyright and ownership is like world-peace an almost unattainable reality.

I may be wrong but doesn't Image Comics work to a creator owned model? I thought it did?

Man, it must be hard work being Pat Mills. He writes loads, puts loads of research and effort in, gets super involved with finding and developing artists, and all the time he is evidently hugely ANGRY!

If it really is the end of his time at 2000AD, I'll miss him more than words can say, but I have to repsect his decision, if not his reasons.

Terra Meks IS a great story. But it's not even the best Ro-Busters story, and certainly not the best Mills has done in his exceptional and almost entirely WFH writing career...

Quote from: AlexF on 19 August, 2020, 01:22:53 PM.
Terra Meks IS a great story. But it's not even the best Ro-Busters story, and certainly not the best Mills has done in his exceptional and almost entirely WFH writing career...

I remember he was asked at the 40th what his best work for 2000AD was, and he said "Nemesis the Warlock".

Points raised above:

Renegotiation for residuals did happen. Hence Wagner's merch drop and creators now getting a percentage of reprint, etc.

Not doing great work unless you own rights seems a... brave move for any creator. I own the rights to very little that I write. But if my work wasn't great, I wouldn't get more work. That's the way of the world. As noted by Magnetica:

QuoteThe lack of ownership doesn't seem to stop Dan Abnett from doing stellar work.

Image only allows creator-owned material (https://imagecomics.com/submissions). But within that there are different balances when it comes to risk/reward compared to the traditional model. Rebellion, presumably, has decided the traditional model works for the company, with only the odd flirtation with creator-owned.

As a creator myself, I don't believe one of these models is 'right' and the other 'wrong'. Yes, it would ideally be good if those who make things retain the rights, but the reality is others are taking the risk. The problem I have is when the balance gets very badly skewed. (For example, I used to write a lot of content for a popular games mag. They then started—legally—reprinting that content in bookazines. Some of those editions were half stuff I'd written. I wasn't expecting to be paid again—reprint rights were something that died around 2000. But it would have been nice to have got a free copy. But: nope. I don't write for them anymore, because the effort wasn't worth the reward.)

Quote from: Magnetica on 19 August, 2020, 01:28:30 PM

Quote from: AlexF on 19 August, 2020, 01:22:53 PM.
Terra Meks IS a great story. But it's not even the best Ro-Busters story, and certainly not the best Mills has done in his exceptional and almost entirely WFH writing career...

I remember he was asked at the 40th what his best work for 2000AD was, and he said "Nemesis the Warlock".

I would agree. I read my Titan collections - The Gothic Empire in particular - over and over again in my teens. I think it lost its way after Deathbringer, but it's still something amazing.

After that, The Black Hole Mission was utterly brilliant, and much of Slaine up to The Horned God was outstanding.

However, I think special mention should go to Metalzoic, which seems overlooked to me. It drew on some ideas that dated back to the first episodes of Nemesis and while it was first a DC story it's one of the best 2000AD series ever.

Outside 2000AD, Marshal Law, Fear and Loathing was incredible. It's an even harder read today than it was at the time, but it remains a great story.

Regards,

Robin

Quote from: Robin Low on 19 August, 2020, 11:17:04 AM

Quote from: Richard on 19 August, 2020, 11:04:03 AM

QuoteRequiem Vampire Knight (any good?)

It's absolutely brilliant, but unfinished.

Given the date of the last volume, I'm going to assume it unlikely it will ever be.

That's purely an art issue. Pat's finished the last volume, but the art's still not done. And you can understand why when you read it! Apparently the artist is of independent means, so he can afford to take as long as he likes.

Quote from: judgeurko on 19 August, 2020, 01:22:29 PM

Quote from: broodblik on 19 August, 2020, 12:29:29 PM
I do not think we will ever get to a point where we have a model working with ownership of material. This can only work in a world where each party respect each other. Copyright and ownership is like world-peace an almost unattainable reality.

I may be wrong but doesn't Image Comics work to a creator owned model? I thought it did?

You are correct that Image work's on creator owner model. But they also had a break-up in later on.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 19 August, 2020, 01:33:44 PM
Image only allows creator-owned material (https://imagecomics.com/submissions). But within that there are different balances when it comes to risk/reward compared to the traditional model.

The Image model is very straightforward: you deliver the book, they get it printed and distributed. They recoup the print/distribution costs plus a flat fee (ISTR hearing it was $3000 per issue, but that may be both wrong and out of date) and once that's covered, the creators keep the rest, per whatever agreement exists between them.*

It is possible to extract up-front money from Image, but they need to be very confident that the book will earn it back. Most creators don't get an advance, and those that do simply have that added on to the total that Image deduct from sales before they start paying out.

As I've said (tediously often, I'm sure) when this sort of conversation comes up, I know of maybe half-a-dozen well-reviewed, mid-selling Image books that have made the creators either nothing at all or a fraction of what they'd have made if they'd shopped it to a publisher who took the rights in exchange for a page rate. Hypothetical TV/movie money isn't much use when you've spent six months drawing a book that's paid back less than you'd have got stacking shelves for the same period.

It's all risk/reward. With WFH, you trade off risk for a fixed reward that might be less than you'd get if your book is a breakout hit and scores a Netflix deal. With creator-owned, you shoulder a lot more promotional work, take on the QC duties that would normally be covered by an editor, plus other editorial stuff (finding a colourist and letterer, for example) and run the risk of making nothing. Not even that Willy-Wonka-Golden-Ticket hope of a Netflix/HBO deal is a guarantee of solid money — the initial option fee can be fairly unimpressive and your project can end up in development hell before reverting back to you without ever delivering that woo-hoo payout.

*Which introduces a different vector for predatory practises. A lot of those 'creator-owned' books are actually 'writer-owned' with the artist on a WFH contract, paid a page rate out of the writer's pocket.

Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 19 August, 2020, 01:49:29 PMThat's purely an art issue. Pat's finished the last volume, but the art's still not done. And you can understand why when you read it! Apparently the artist is of independent means, so he can afford to take as long as he likes.

Thanks - I may look into getting it then.... or having just looked at the cost of volume 1, probably not! Shame, as it looks incredible - bit of a John Hicklenton vibe to the art.

Regards,

Robin

^ And all of what Jim covers above is what Sanders was basically saying in that memo, albeit in a rather tone-deaf and undiplomatic manner. Want to go creator-owned? Fine, but you pick up substantial extra risk. You make the thing, hope it sells well, and might later make some money. Happy with WFH? Then you'll get paid for the job, but after that point will make little or nothing.

A happy medium can exist here, of course, with publishers willing to entertain post-WFH shares, such as royalties, or some of the pot in the event a series is sold to another medium. Rights reversion after a set period of time (even if that time is lengthy) can also work. (Mags also have a third way—Future's contract stipulates copyright reverts after six months but the original WFH affords the publisher non-exclusive rights forever. And I suspect any writer attempting to hawk 'rival' work to existing fare would soon find themselves cut from the editor lists.)

In a week that has seen the cancellation of all my favourite DC comics, the news of Pat leaving 2000AD is almost too much to bear.

If Spacewarp was available, now, in my local newsagent, I might be somewhat mollified, but as he seems to be pinning all hopes on what is- presently at least- a single digital comic, just breaks my heart. Of course I will buy it when it goes to print- in fact, I will buy two copies because one will be for my son. But no more Slaine? No more ABCs? No more Savage? No more Flesh? No more Defoe? No, that cannot be.

I was going to add a snarkily humorous comment here about what did you think would happen when he came only second in the Godpleton Cup? But you know what, it's too distressing. I hope he reconsiders. A 2000AD without Pat Mills is incomprehensible.

SBT

It almost goes without saying that I hope they don't hand over his strips to other writers. As mentioned downthread there are plenty of new concepts and stories coming in. To hand them out to others really would be Rebellion flicking the v's at Uncle Pat with relish and it would be hard to see any return from that?

What is a shame none of the current stories got a send off. I'd love the relationship to have ended on better terms so Mills could write a send off for Savage in particular, a story that feels like it has an ending that need to be written. ABC Warriors and Slaine are more spralling odysseys and so feel less in need of an ending, but would be nice if Pat M could have found a way to satisfactorially wrap them up and give us an ending. Defoe - must admit I pay less attention to.

Still we are were we are and have to respect that and look back happily at what we have rather than crave what we haven't...

but an end to Savage would be nice...

If Mills could give his blessings for a writer of his choice to continue some of his work then we might get the conclusions to these stories.  I still say if he leaves then we have to life with it rather than another writer trying to make continue his stories.

I think Tharg's canny enough to know he'd be burning his bridges if he immediately farmed Mills' characters out to other writers. They'll be quietly rested until/unless he returns.

If he decide to return. 

Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 19 August, 2020, 03:22:54 PM
I think Tharg's canny enough to know he'd be burning his bridges if he immediately farmed Mills' characters out to other writers. They'll be quietly rested until/unless he returns.

The fanbase of old white men would be up in arms with it as well.

But he would probably come back if he was given Paddy McGinty's Goat to reboot.

Quote from: judgeurko on 19 August, 2020, 04:14:25 PM
The fanbase of old white men would be up in arms with it as well.

I, for one, am looking forward to David Bishop's Savage and Andy Diggle's Slaine.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 August, 2020, 04:57:06 PM

Quote from: judgeurko on 19 August, 2020, 04:14:25 PM
The fanbase of old white men would be up in arms with it as well.

I, for one, am looking forward to David Bishop's Savage and Andy Diggle's Slaine.

Oh, you are awful.... but I like you!

Regards,

Robin

Thoughts.

I'm pretty sure it is Alan and Robin referred to - certainly Alan Grant would be the first to say he was seen as a rabble rouser by John Sanders.  Morrison and John Smith would hardly have dipped their toes in the water to have made any impression on Sanders at this point I would imagine.

Checking both TPO and MacManus's book, I can't find much info on any mooted copyright change for existing properties, which is slightly odd in itself.  It is a pretty big deal when looking back on the history of the comic - the date is a bout a year prior to the Maxwell buyout IIRC, so it's possible the window of opportunity here was too brief, but it seems odd that Mills, Wagner and Moore might not have joined forces to explore this any further... I mean, calling your life blood creators whingers is pretty bad business, but if you were genuinely offering to negotiate something and all you got back was silence, it's an opinion you might form? If it was a genuine offer of course....

Do I recall Alan Moore interview where he might have dropped a vague mention of being offered Halo Jones copyright? Wish I had catalogued and cross referenced all my fanzines when I planned to all those years back!

As for Pat's 2000AD strips, leave them alone! I have no interest in reading someone elses take on any of his stories - My interest in them all is as Pat's particular vision.

And finally, to the idea 2000AD isn't trying to expand its audience away from "old white men", I find that rather rich - aren't the main complaints from the FB/ECBT2K crowd that the current prog is trying to be some SJW paradise and should Bring Back Meltdown Man and Mean Arena and bog roll paper?

Much as I love his early work, I often think that Pat Mills suffers overmuch from perspective bias. On the one hand, he's filled with indignation at the very thought of his creations being used by someone else, and on the other he passes off as natural creative osmosis the borrowing of ideas that led to Terra-Meks, which he now cites as being fully creator owned. Has he gotten in touch with the copyright holders of his inspirations to ensure that their creative endeavors have been as securely rewarded and protected as he wishes his to be?

Inspiration for Charlie:

(https://i.imgur.com/piYFWUN.jpg)


Inspiration for Terra-Meks:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z4SOAKyqeYY/UD6rcT3F8oI/AAAAAAAAAOg/_-VH8cz3hgc/s640/Coney+1976+-+Brontomek%21.jpg)


---

I don't hold as sacrosanct this idea that properties (such as Judge Dredd, or Indigo Prime, or The ABC Warriors) cannot be given over to other writers. Variations on Shakespeare's works are manifold and not worthless as artistic endeavors.  I often cite Moore's Red Planet Blues as a great example of another writer doing great work with someone else's creation. Or you could use Smith's Cinnabar.

---

I wished that Spacewarp #1 were better, and it's certainly going to get some early support from loyal, long-term fans, but I didn't want to finish it. I was told that I was reading it incorrectly and needed to allow it six months of my time, which frankly is a fucking weird argument to make about a comic. Watchmen didn't need six months -  I couldn't put it down. I can't think of any other comic that requires a set of instructions on how to enjoy it. I wish it all the best, along with all the other fanzines that exist.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 August, 2020, 04:57:06 PM

Quote from: judgeurko on 19 August, 2020, 04:14:25 PM
The fanbase of old white men would be up in arms with it as well.

I, for one, am looking forward to David Bishop's Savage and Andy Diggle's Slaine.

I'm busy writing a series of new historical crime novels for Pan MacMillan, set in late Renaissance Florence.

Besides, Andy would do a much better job of giving Savage the kick up the arse it needs than me.

;) ;) ;)

Is the art also copyright Dave Gibbons, or was it just Pat? He talks about the art being better for it, but also seems to suggest it was the script that the deal covered and its just him that REbellion ahve to deal with for reprinting?

Quote from: Funt Solo on 19 August, 2020, 05:41:59 PM
Much as I love his early work, I often think that Pat Mills suffers overmuch from perspective bias. On the one hand, he's filled with indignation at the very thought of his creations being used by someone else, and on the other he passes off as natural creative osmosis the borrowing of ideas that led to Terra-Meks, which he now cites as being fully creator owned. Has he gotten in touch with the copyright holders of his inspirations to ensure that their creative endeavors have been as securely rewarded and protected as he wishes his to be?

Inspiration for Charlie:

(https://i.imgur.com/piYFWUN.jpg)


Inspiration for Terra-Meks:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z4SOAKyqeYY/UD6rcT3F8oI/AAAAAAAAAOg/_-VH8cz3hgc/s640/Coney+1976+-+Brontomek%21.jpg)


---

I don't hold as sacrosanct this idea that properties (such as Judge Dredd, or Indigo Prime, or The ABC Warriors) cannot be given over to other writers. Variations on Shakespeare's works are manifold and not worthless as artistic endeavors.  I often cite Moore's Red Planet Blues as a great example of another writer doing great work with someone else's creation. Or you could use Smith's Cinnabar.

---

I wished that Spacewarp #1 were better, and it's certainly going to get some early support from loyal, long-term fans, but I didn't want to finish it. I was told that I was reading it incorrectly and needed to allow it six months of my time, which frankly is a fucking weird argument to make about a comic. Watchmen didn't need six months -  I couldn't put it down. I can't think of any other comic that requires a set of instructions on how to enjoy it. I wish it all the best, along with all the other fanzines that exist.

Quote from: Leigh S on 19 August, 2020, 05:52:11 PM
Is the art also copyright Dave Gibbons, or was it just Pat? He talks about the art being better for it, but also seems to suggest it was the script that the deal covered and its just him that REbellion ahve to deal with for reprinting?

I don't know.

I did find the relevant "when I do it, it's taking inspiration" quote from Be Pure! Be Vigilant! Behave! (Mills, 2017):

QuoteAngus [McKie] is a fantastic artist, who did an excellent strip in Heavy Metal at that time and produced a later sf cover that inspired my character Charlie in the Terra Meks.

I think it's very reasonable that there be quite a lot of cross-pollination in creative endeavors - I get lost on exactly when that becomes a swipe, as opposed to an inspiration, and it seems based on perspective.

Quote from: davidbishop on 19 August, 2020, 05:45:00 PM
I'm busy writing a series of new historical crime novels for Pan MacMillan, set in late Renaissance Florence.

Defoe for you, then...!

Quote from: Funt Solo on 19 August, 2020, 05:41:59 PM
I often cite Moore's Red Planet Blues as a great example of another writer doing great work with someone else's creation. Or you could use Smith's Cinnabar.

Alan Moore and John Smith could write great stories about breakfast cereal mascots, because they are insanely talented. But if you're asking me if I want to see Snapcracklepopanditsinmyheadmilkrunninglikeblood, or John doing his own thing, I'd go for the latter.

Quote from: Funt Solo on 19 August, 2020, 05:41:59 PMI wish it all the best, along with all the other fanzines that exist.

Ouch.

Quote from: Funt Solo on 19 August, 2020, 05:41:59 PMInspiration for Charlie:

(https://i.imgur.com/piYFWUN.jpg)


Inspiration for Terra-Meks:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z4SOAKyqeYY/UD6rcT3F8oI/AAAAAAAAAOg/_-VH8cz3hgc/s640/Coney+1976+-+Brontomek%21.jpg)

I think you might be overestimating how much writers are concerned by how they are influenced by the work of others, and yet they can still be highly-protective of a specific version of a story they happened to have produced themselves.
Harlan Ellison sued James Cameron over Terminator, yet Ellison also dismissively points out that the basis of his own tv show was taken from a Robert Heinlein novel (although he erroneously identifies it as a Harry Harrison) in this rather lengthy dissection of the car crash that was The Star Lost (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOsPYKNFNig) and how it was just a mish-mash of other things.  I would recommend the bit starting around 13.30 or so for Ellison being quite unabashed about what derivative horseshit he knew was turning in, but he was still clearly possessive of it until he angrily rage-quit the whole enterprise.

Quote from: Funt Solo on 19 August, 2020, 05:41:59 PM
I wished that Spacewarp #1 were better....I was told that I was reading it incorrectly and needed to allow it six months of my time.

Yeah don't get that either. Who told you that?

I think part of Pat's grievance with 2000AD as he sees it is things like Visable Man not being picked up as a series and Flesh, Defoe, and Savage all being dropped for no reason he can see. Plus he started to step aside to write his Read Em and Weep books putting his 2000AD work in second place

Quote from: Magnetica on 19 August, 2020, 09:18:34 PM

Quote from: Funt Solo on 19 August, 2020, 05:41:59 PM
I wished that Spacewarp #1 were better....I was told that I was reading it incorrectly and needed to allow it six months of my time.

Yeah don't get that either. Who told you that?

Well, Frank ... from beyond the grave. So, maybe I should take that with a pinch of salt. I should also give it another chance in a bit, see if I was having a bad day. But, right now, I'm too busy re-reading Revolver. Man, that went way over my head when I was a yoof.

Quote from: rogue69 on 19 August, 2020, 09:52:27 PM
I think part of Pat's grievance with 2000AD as he sees it is things like Visable Man not being picked up as a series and Flesh, Defoe, and Savage all being dropped for no reason he can see. Plus he started to step aside to write his Read Em and Weep books putting his 2000AD work in second place

What...?

Hopefully if Pat has stopped writing for 2000AD he can get on with writing Read Em and Weep book 3.

I get it how Funt feels about Spacewarp. At the end it took a lot of effort to read trough to whole publications. Reading it reminds me of the time when I was still in school where you read something not because you are enjoying it because you must. The big positive was not the story but rather the new artist that was introduced to me. I have already stated in the beginning of this thread how I feel about Mills current form.  I will definitely miss Slaine, Defoe, ABC Warriors and Savage (not a fan of Flesh). Hopefully, we can see Pat return to maybe finish off these like he did on Nemesis.

On the subject of Rebellion and creator-owned work, they're averse to it, are they? There was the creator-owned slot that ran in the Megazine for a while, a large chunk of which was taken-up with American Reaper.

You all realise there is nothing in the Mills's blog that says he has stopped writing for 2000ad?

He refers to the 1988 memo to explain why he has launched Space Warp. He could actually be talking historically, explaining why he's not launched any new characters. It might just be that he's not writing any new stuff; that his new creations will be owned by him.

Maybe a more optimistic conclusion, true. But it would explain why he is only writing for the strips created in the 70s and early 80s (Savage, ABC, Slaine) and not doing anything too new.

Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 20 August, 2020, 08:18:38 AM
You all realise there is nothing in the Mills's blog that says he has stopped writing for 2000ad?

I'm not sure how you can read this any other way.

Quote from: Pat MillsSo like so many other 2000AD artists and writers before me – including Alan – I was left with no choice but to leave. To finish off my work on the comic I love dearly and turn out the lights.

As the Creator of 2000AD it's been the hardest decision for me to walk away from my creation. But it had to be done.

Because I'm so tired of my legitimate complaints being ignored or dismissed as 'whinging'. Or whatever they call it today.

So, instead, I've produced SPACEWARP, where creators finally own their own work and get a proper share of the profits. That's the reason the standard is so high.

I read those quotes as referring to decades ago.

EDIT: I may of course be wrong. I see how it can be read the other way. I'm just a smidge more optimistic.

Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 20 August, 2020, 08:44:09 AM
I read those quotes as referring to decades ago.

EDIT: I may of course be wrong. I see how it can be read the other way. I'm just a smidge more optimistic.

That's what I thought too - I can't really see how what Steve McManus did when he was editor affects Pat's career now.

I'd like to have seen how Savage turned out.  And I'll miss Sláine too, even though I believe the series jumped the shark a long, long time ago, even before Ukko stopped being the narrator. 

I guess it's open to interpretation. I did ask Mills on Twitter, but he didn't reply. But those words make little sense in the context of the past, on the basis that he didn't leave the comic nor his creations. His constant barbs about Rebellion also baffle me. I'm sure things could be better for creators, but Rebellion is the reason why 2000 AD still exists. Without them, it—and Mills's primary way of getting his stories into the world—would have died long ago.

That old saying "Do not bite the hand that feeds you"

He should be grateful.

There are no grounds for optimism, Pat is clearly writing in the present tense. He never left 2000AD in the 80s, and when he said he was setting up another comic instead he clearly means Spacewarp, not some other comic in 1988. He wrote the new Slaine story years ago (it's just taken Manco a long time to finish the art to a standard he was satisfied with). He's written his last script for 2000AD, which is a shame, and seems like an odd decision to make 32 years after the thing that pissed him off. Rebellion has taken 2000AD from strength to strength.

I think that, at the risk of being cynical, it's worth remembering that Pat is trying to sell Spacewarp right now. That's not to doubt his motives in pursuing SW in the first place, or his belief in the model it uses, but telling his fans that - essentially - Spacewarp is where he's going to be dedicating his energies now and rallying them to the banner probably makes a lot of sense from his position, regardless of whether the door at 2000AD is closed for good.

There's been a fair amount to unpick here over the years, and that unpicking is particularly tricky since pretty much all of what has been said publicly about Pat's relationship with Rebellion comes from one side of that relationship. It's clear he's not been happy with certain editorial decisions on his strips, the royalties on the Hachette reprint series, and he has been arguing for a while that the rights situation in the UK doesn't encourage the best work from creators. The obvious flip of that point re: encouraging your best work, of course, is that if your work under a system you disagree with isn't your best, editors and readers will notice and it will make you less likely to get new series commissioned, or have your existing series continued.

I don't think it would be too controversial to say that I think Pat's work for the prog has been quite variable for the last 10 years or so. Defoe was fresh and exciting, and seems to have been popular, but both the Flesh reboot and Greysuit struggled, and all three ended up with some of the rather more well-worn elements of Pat's philosophy overwhelming them at points (which, I'm aware, will be a plus for some readers, but I prefer Pat's work when his talent for pulpy thrill and spectacle are more balanced with his political and more esoteric beliefs). Slaine had a mini renaissance, but that has petered out somewhat (in spite of the glorious art from the artists working with Pat) and ABC Warriors has been a relentless trudge since somewhere around 2007. American Reaper had its moments, but again fell back into some familiar grooves. There's a definite feeling of trading off past glories with ABC Warriors, Slaine, returning to Flesh, The Visible Man and MACH One (by way of Greysuit), and while I'm sure Pat would argue that the rights setup makes developing entirely new characters and putting his all into them less worthwhile, it has the effect of making his work for the prog look a bit old hat. As noted earlier in the thread, compare with someone like Dan Abnett who brings successful new strips to the prog and Meg on a relatively regular basis - Kingdom, Brink, Insurrection, Grey Area, The Out, Lawless, Feral & Foe - while still juggling the long-running Sin/Dex. You could also look to Gordon Rennie, who is ploughing the same furrow as Pat in some ways, reworking existing characters or developing stories in an existing world with Aquila and Jaegir, both of which have been well-received and are ongoing, as well as restarting Caballistics after a fashion with The Diaboliks.

Given what I've seen of Spacewarp and the last decade plus of Mills' work for the prog, and the (admittedly limited) visibility we have on the things he complains about, I think my take would be that his philosophical issues with WFH and creator rights and specific disagreements with Rebellion have led him to a point where he believes he isn't doing his best work, and that SW and independence is the way to go. However, I don't think that the work on show in Spacewarp is significantly better than what he's been producing for the prog, and I certainly don't get the sense of Pat Unleashed; it's much the same kind of thing he's been doing at 2000AD for a long time now, just independent and with a new set of creative partners. That's perhaps enough for Pat's more diehard fans, but I think it's a relatively limited audience and while I respect him putting his money where his mouth is on it, I don't see the gulf in quality he talks about in his blog.

To be fair with Rennie, when he ploughs the same furrow, he often creates something that's fresh: the Angel Gang rebook; the superb Jaegir (the only thing in the RT universe really worth a damn for me); Diaboliks. It doesn't feel like he's bored or going through the motions. With Mills's more recent output, it's like watching a remastered DVD at 50% speed. It's a bit more glossy, but we're getting the same story again, playing out at half speed.

I've yet to read Spacewarp. But if it treads the same ground and is peppered with the same Icky-style worldview, I might just end up angry rather than intrigued/entertained.

I perhaps should have been a bit more clear - I wasn't criticising Rennie's work on strips like Jaegir or Aquila, more praising them. Aquila might owe a debt to Blackhawk, as Greysuit does to MACH One, but it's a much more interesting and effective beast; similarly, Jaegir is playing in the Rogue Trooper universe, but Rennie's approach makes it very much its own thing. I'd maybe argue that Rennie's experience on the earlier Rogue Trooper stories and The '86ers (decent, but nowhere near his best) helped him work out how best to handle these kind of reinventions and spin-offs, and I think his hit rate on stuff like Angelic, Jaegir and Aquila suggests that earlier, rougher work prepared him well.

If Pat's penned his last script for 2000AD it's a great shame, but I guess we'll see.  He's created such an incredible stable of characters for 2000AD (most of which I've had a go at in Lego) that his loss will be sorely felt whenever and however it happens.  However, as others have mentioned, there are a lot of great, GREAT newer strips by other writers that have emerged in recent years and I'd be lying if I said I'd miss Pat's recent Prog contributions compared to, say,Dan Abnett or Ian Edginton.

We'll definitely give Spacewarp a go when it gets a physical release; the boys (now 9 and 11) read the Phoenix for giggles and the Prog for grit (and we get Aquila* as something completely different), so it'll be interesting to see how this fits into the mix.



* not that Aquila, the other one.

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 19 August, 2020, 02:26:12 PM
ABC Warriors and Slaine are more spralling odysseys and so feel less in need of an ending, but would be nice if Pat M could have found a way to satisfactorially wrap them up and give us an ending.

Would love for Pat to wrap up ABC Warriors with a balls-to-the-wall epic and a Hammerstein V Deadlock finale.
Get the best available artists back for the job - Walker, Langley, Flint - feck it, Tharg could re-purpose the pages Biz has already drawn for the never-gonna-happen Joe Pineapples story.

These are important characters in the annals of 2000AD - they deserve to go out with an atomic, bacterial and chemical explosion.

Quote from: Link Prime on 20 August, 2020, 03:07:16 PMWould love for Pat to wrap up ABC Warriors with a balls-to-the-wall epic and a Hammerstein V Deadlock finale.

As long as Hammerstein won.

Regards,

Robin

Quote from: Link Prime on 20 August, 2020, 03:07:16 PMWould love for Pat to wrap up ABC Warriors with a balls-to-the-wall epic and a Hammerstein V Deadlock finale.

Although, given how that series has 'progressed' (and I use the quotes quite deliberately) in recent years, book one would be the gang inexplicably having to get back together (again), book two would be an effective rewrite of an ABC Warriors story from decades ago, stretched out to breaking point, book three would centre on an entirely new, semi-deposable character, book four would have Blackblood rejoin the warriors only to—shock!—betray them, and only with book five would we get that finale. Possibly.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 20 August, 2020, 04:05:06 PM

Quote from: Link Prime on 20 August, 2020, 03:07:16 PMWould love for Pat to wrap up ABC Warriors with a balls-to-the-wall epic and a Hammerstein V Deadlock finale.

Although, given how that series has 'progressed' (and I use the quotes quite deliberately) in recent years, book one would be the gang inexplicably having to get back together (again), book two would be an effective rewrite of an ABC Warriors story from decades ago, stretched out to breaking point, book three would centre on an entirely new, semi-deposable character, book four would have Blackblood rejoin the warriors only to—shock!—betray them, and only with book five would we get that finale. Possibly.

Precisely my point. No more naval gazing robo-memoirs or re-cooked ideas.
It could be the potential final tale of a dozen or so psychotic and ancient war robots; finish things up satisfactorily - a terse, ruthless 10 - 15 part epic, no holds barred.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 20 August, 2020, 09:47:47 AM
I guess it's open to interpretation. I did ask Mills on Twitter, but he didn't reply. But those words make little sense in the context of the past, on the basis that he didn't leave the comic nor his creations. His constant barbs about Rebellion also baffle me. I'm sure things could be better for creators, but Rebellion is the reason why 2000 AD still exists. Without them, it—and Mills's primary way of getting his stories into the world—would have died long ago.

But if creator rights existed & 2000AD folded then Mills would be free to continue with characters like Slaine in other publications, or via a kickstarter project that would easily reach its target.

2000ad readers reading 2000ad:

QuoteFUCK YEAH!  STICK IT TO THE MAN, ANTIHERO PROTAGONIST #648!

2000ad readers discussing workers controlling the product of their labor:

QuoteBut what about the poor corporations?

Quote from: The Amstor Computer on 20 August, 2020, 01:14:22 PM
There's been a fair amount to unpick here over the years, and that unpicking is particularly tricky since pretty much all of what has been said publicly about Pat's relationship with Rebellion comes from one side of that relationship. It's clear he's not been happy with certain editorial decisions on his strips, the royalties on the Hachette reprint series, ...

I think I asked previously about the current situation.  I'm still a little unclear on what is happening with respect to his current relationship with the Rebellion editorial team.  The memo he is discussing relates to the old IPC days and I can understand his issues there.  It's been clear for a long time.

Personally I've found myself in the "too much Mills" camp when he has dominated the prog.  Slaine was never a strip that I took to.  Flesh is another strip that always left me cold.  Then again I've enjoyed the reboot of Savage.  Defoe worked incredibly well when Gallagher was on art duties.  ABC has been an issue for me with Langley's art.  I find it too 'busy' to follow the narrative but gorgeous to look at.  The thing is that there has usually been something in his work to enjoy but like anything it's about balance.

So it seems a little peculiar to me that he is taking issue with a publisher that seems to enthusiastic and supportive of his work.  Especially when you consider how many writers and artists would give body organs for the opportunity to have their work included.

As folks are saying, it seems a partial picture.  It also seems a little equivocal.  Perhaps there is some posturing going on here?  A bit of brinkmanship as part of negotiations?  I guess ultimately time will tell.

Quote from: Professor Bear on 20 August, 2020, 08:10:07 PM
2000ad readers reading 2000ad:

QuoteFUCK YEAH!  STICK IT TO THE MAN, ANTIHERO PROTAGONIST #648!

2000ad readers discussing workers controlling the product of their labor:

QuoteBut what about the poor corporations?

Not actual quotes, of course. Most people that discuss this (here), rather than being slavish corporate lackeys, tend to present a fairly balanced view of the realpolitik of the comic publishing scene.

I'm not the biggest fan of modern Mills, and that's both his writing and his public persona: he's a tendency to present things in a way that supports his pet theories, and it's just not always accurate. His tendency to overplay Germany's suffering post-WWII I find skirts horribly close to extremist dogma. Through that lens, the actions of Finn or Savage or Greysuit as a serial killer, or modern Hammerstein as judge, jury and executioner (of politicians he doesn't like) are quite disturbing.

Both of those points I make to illustrate that there's no hypocrisy involved in sitting between the two extreme positions you present.

Quote from: Tjm86 on 20 August, 2020, 08:18:48 PM
So it seems a little peculiar to me that he is taking issue with a publisher that seems to enthusiastic and supportive of his work.  Especially when you consider how many writers and artists would give body organs for the opportunity to have their work included.

But it's not his work, he doesn't have ownership of it. That's the point.

Quote from: Funt Solo on 20 August, 2020, 08:41:11 PM

Quote from: Professor Bear on 20 August, 2020, 08:10:07 PM
2000ad readers reading 2000ad:

QuoteFUCK YEAH!  STICK IT TO THE MAN, ANTIHERO PROTAGONIST #648!

2000ad readers discussing workers controlling the product of their labor:

QuoteBut what about the poor corporations?

Not actual quotes, of course. Most people that discuss this (here), rather than being slavish corporate lackeys, tend to present a fairly balanced view of the realpolitik of the comic publishing scene.

I'm not the biggest fan of modern Mills, and that's both his writing and his public persona: he's a tendency to present things in a way that supports his pet theories, and it's just not always accurate. His tendency to overplay Germany's suffering post-WWII I find skirts horribly close to extremist dogma. Through that lens, the actions of Finn or Savage or Greysuit as a serial killer, or modern Hammerstein as judge, jury and executioner (of politicians he doesn't like) are quite disturbing.

Both of those points I make to illustrate that there's no hypocrisy involved in sitting between the two extreme positions you present.

Thank God I didn't do a KNOCK KNOCK joke or we'd be here all night.

Oh, it was a joke!  :-[

See also: This Is The End, Anchorman, The Waterboy etc.

KNOCK! KNOCK!

Who's Dare?

Dan!

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/89/18/2d/89182dcf3cb7cbba430202c1b88ec025.jpg)

2000ad readers going to the doctor:

QuoteDoctor Doctor, I feel like a thoroughbred horse.

2000ad readers' doctor:

QuoteAnd how long have you felt like this?

2000ad readers delivering the punchline:

QuoteSince I won the Grand National.

I presume you're referring to the horse in Judge Dredd etc.

Now if we all can remember a weeks ago we had the Sci-Fi special release and there was review with Clint Langley and one of the last questions asked was what are you working on for AD/Meg and CL said "More ABC Warriors!".

The article: https://2000ad.com/news/2000-ad-sci-fi-special-john-reppion-clint-langley-talk-black-storm/ (https://2000ad.com/news/2000-ad-sci-fi-special-john-reppion-clint-langley-talk-black-storm/)


Adding my voices to something like ABC Warriors is how I even see the "heroes", they are as bad as the evil they are fighting doing exactly as the "bad" people is doing it and oppressing the voice of freedom of choice and opinion. ABC Warriors has now been on cycle of rinse, repeat, recycle. Still reading it still enjoying it (maybe less that previous series)

Quote from: judgeurko on 20 August, 2020, 08:51:02 PM

Quote from: Tjm86 on 20 August, 2020, 08:18:48 PM
So it seems a little peculiar to me that he is taking issue with a publisher that seems to enthusiastic and supportive of his work.

But it's not his work, he doesn't have ownership of it. That's the point.

Fair enough, I can understand the frustration there.  Especially when you consider that Scarlet Traces is an example of greater creative ownership in the prog. 

So are we saying that he is insinuating that Rebellion is adopting the same attitudes as were displayed in the memo?  Ultimately Mills is not exactly renowned for his subtlety, is he?  Then again this time does appear a little more ambiguous in his final point to me.   :-*

QuoteSo are we saying that he is insinuating that Rebellion is adopting the same attitudes as were displayed in the memo?

Pat Mills has said on several occasions that the deal the creators get is basically the same pay rates and contract as it was when Rebellion took over, so he feels that they are getting paid less now for their work if you take inflation and the increase in the cost of living account

Quote from: rogue69 on 21 August, 2020, 07:44:18 AM
Pat Mills has said on several occasions that the deal the creators get is basically the same pay rates and contract as it was when Rebellion took over, so he feels that they are getting paid less now for their work if you take inflation and the increase in the cost of living account

Not to derail the thread but as an NHS worker with almost 30 years service I've not seen a decent (above 1.5%) pay rise since the early 2000's. My per-hour wage is worth much less than it used to be.

Quote from: Bolt-01 on 21 August, 2020, 08:05:54 AM
Not to derail the thread but as an NHS worker with almost 30 years service I've not seen a decent (above 1.5%) pay rise since the early 2000's. My per-hour wage is worth much less than it used to be.

I don't think you'll find many comic creators who've seen a significant increase in page rates, certainly in the last twenty years. There are plenty reporting that rates have fallen. Marvel's standard lettering rate is less than I get from publishers a fraction of their size and is half what you could expect them to offer even a few years back.

I'm not saying that's right — quite the opposite, but if Pat thinks there are materially better deals on offer elsewhere in the comic world, he's in for a rude awakening. (And, obviously, it's been a while since he did any work for a French publisher — I was part of a recent discussion on page rates where a couple of bande dessinée artists were bemoaning some truly terrible page rates, despite their books outselling almost anything in the US market.)

Quote from: Tjm86 on 21 August, 2020, 07:14:38 AM
Fair enough, I can understand the frustration there.  Especially when you consider that Scarlet Traces is an example of greater creative ownership in the prog. 

Is it?  I thought it was creator-owned but that the creators sold the IP to Rebellion before starting on the most recent story?

Quote from: sheridan on 21 August, 2020, 08:53:28 AM

Quote from: Tjm86 on 21 August, 2020, 07:14:38 AM
Fair enough, I can understand the frustration there.  Especially when you consider that Scarlet Traces is an example of greater creative ownership in the prog. 

Is it?  I thought it was creator-owned but that the creators sold the IP to Rebellion before starting on the most recent story?

Yes that is also my understanding is that it is now owned by Rebellion

Quote from: sheridan on 21 August, 2020, 08:53:28 AM

Quote from: Tjm86 on 21 August, 2020, 07:14:38 AM
Fair enough, I can understand the frustration there.  Especially when you consider that Scarlet Traces is an example of greater creative ownership in the prog. 

Is it?  I thought it was creator-owned but that the creators sold the IP to Rebellion before starting on the most recent story?

Yeah that's my understanding. This also reveals that the idea of owning your own property isn't a simple promised land it can be made out to be. Ian Edgington and D'Irsaeli have assessed their options with a lot more practical insight than we and other 'sage' internet experts have and come up selling their property.

Why? Well I'd guess looking at the balance of risk, cost, reward and probably just the plain practicality of getting your story out there. They will fully understand the factors involved.

Painting Publishers with the same darkly motivated brush is a horribly simplistic view of the world. In a market were sales are hard, rates are low Publishers and WFH serve a very real purpose and always have and will.

Does that mean they all act honorably  of course not. Does that mean they are all the moustache twirling villains some would portray, of course not.

It's a tricky delicately balanced ecosystem out there and that will need variety and smart evolution by all to survive and co-exist.

I'm sorry to hear Pat's perhaps leaving 2000AD for a while, and yes his messages did get over repetitive, but he has an exceptional body of work almost like no other. I often wonder why he didn't expand into writing television screenplays, or movies and I'm sure he's had a few ideas for shows or comics that never got made.

Jim's note is, again, extremely important in the context of this thread. There is no promised land right now for comics. They are niche publishing in most parts of the world, and therefore money is tight. The same is also true across a lot of media markets—if you think you'll get a massive advance for a book, you've another thing coming to you. I'm seeing authors getting a fraction of what I used to get back in the early 2000s.

So either you take most of the risk and get most of the spoils—if there are any to be had—or little of the risk and a small amount of the profits. That's the choice. Mills seems to want his cake and eat it. And there is probably an argument to be had about balance along the way. (See also: the current shitshow that is Apple/Google/Epic.) But. The question remains precisely why did Mills stick with 2000 AD for so long if he hates whoever's running it with the burning fury of a thousand suns? Just because it's 'his' creation?

And, yeah, Scarlet Traces is an interesting one. Great concept and art. Ideal, you'd think, for top-drawer cash slam-dunk. And yet: initially published on Cool Beans World (defunct), reprinted in the Megazine creator-owned slot (lower rates), collected by Dark Horse (lovely HC volumes, but long OOP), and then eventually fully sold to Rebellion. But hang on: Rebellion are evil and... Oh, I give up.

I find the idea of creator-ownership to also have a lot of dodgy baggage that I'm not at all comfortable with. While there're definitely massive issues with exploitation of creators, and writers and artists should have contractual protections against creating a work and having it handed to someone else, some of the strongest advocates of creator-ownership do seem to have a 'my toys' attitude to things that can come across as fairly hypocritical.

Moore, is a great example here, given that a large amount of his work is built on other people's creations. Should he have been denied the right write these works? Mill's work on Dredd is another case in point (albeit a smaller one in comparison to the extensive body of Moore's work that fits this particular bill). Should a creator have the right to deny other people their wish to work with their characters?

Publisher ownership seems like an extreme, and exploitative, solution to this issue, that offers few rewards for creation and little security, but creator-ownership can sometimes seem like the extreme end of music copyright that wanted to ban cover versions and player pianos.

Or at least that's my argument to have someone write a series based on the pre- war with Termight history of the Warlocks.  :D

2000 AD is an oddity, in that it doesn't really have many house characters, unlike the big two and IDW. The manner in which it operates is closer to Image, in creators pitching strips and having their sandpit to play in indefinitely. Dredd is an obvious exception, as is Rogue Trooper. People might argue they should therefore be better with creators, but I'd argue that in itself is already 'being better'. Under Rebellion's run, it's not like strips have been handed out like sweets. Strips have generally been long-dead and resurrected, stayed with the original creative team, or shifted creators with the blessing of the original writer. (Even with John Smith's work, note that on Facebook he publicly stated he was happy with other people writing his characters, even if he wasn't thrilled by the direction in with RMC took Devlin.)

In possibly related news... American Reaper picked up for film adaptation?

https://bleedingcool.com/movies/american-reaper-flanagan-foy-amblin-comic-adaptation/

Quote from: ming on 21 August, 2020, 10:20:08 AM
In possibly related news... American Reaper picked up for film adaptation?

https://bleedingcool.com/movies/american-reaper-flanagan-foy-amblin-comic-adaptation/

Heh, I was just about to delurk and mention that.

Could this be the real reason Pat's chosen now to sever his ties with Rebellion? The timing certainly does seem very apt. I know he's been trying to get film projects based on his IPs off the ground for years, I could well believe he we was just biding his time, waiting for the right offer to come along before jumping ship.

I'm not criticising him for that, if anyone's earned a big payday after years of hard work it's Pat, but I'm just wondering if some of his comments in that blog post are a bit disingenuous given this development.

Given how much of a control freak he is over his IPs (not a criticism, note—plenty of writers are), it'll be interesting to see how he responds to someone else writing all over his original concept. Even the most slavish of comic book adaptations change a bunch of stuff, sometimes on the original author's recommendations (Old Guard, e.g.) and sometimes not so much.

If this takes off, I'll be glad. I wasn't keen on the thing when it ran in the Meg, but it has its fans—and the more stuff from the House of Tharg being adapted, the better, frankly.

Aye, though I'm not quite sure why that particular Pat strip is of interest to the cinema world, as opposed to Slaine, ABCs, Nemesis, Marshal Law etc.

Now where's that Rogue Trooper film, Zowie Bowie?

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 21 August, 2020, 11:12:06 AM
Aye, though I'm not quite sure why that particular Pat strip is of interest to the cinema world, as opposed to Slaine, ABCs, Nemesis, Marshal Law etc.

Now where's that Rogue Trooper film, Zowie Bowie?

American Reaper was specifically intended to be a creator-owned IP that Mills could pitch as a film, he and Clint Langley co-own a limited company to develop concepts they can sell as film ideas. This is the first fruit of that, and it's only taken...fourteen years. Blimey.

I think we're unlikely see any big Hollywood adaptations of Mills's 2000AD material any time soon, as Rebellion owns them and (presumably) they're holding onto those as their own potential future projects.

I think Marshall Law is in a similar boat, with DC owning the comics, but not the adaptation rights.  Rebellion just spent 100 million on a studio, I would imagine they'd want to produce adaptations of anything they own "in-house" if possible, as while Rebellion aren't operating on Marvel's level, I don't think they need to be to learn the lessons Marvel did with farming out the rights to Spider-Man and X-Men.

NHS workers (and apologies to Bolt if I'm misinterpreting his post) would negotiate better conditions and wages if they could, and so should comics creators wherever possible.
As Jim alludes, payment rates in comics are affected by the perfect shitstorm of almost the entire industry being based on freelance labor and "house" characters or properties, so setting uniform rates for creators is impossible because creators are not the commodity, characters and IP are.  Even those creators who get to go their own way on a miniseries they hope will be "picked up by Netflix" aren't the valuable part of the comics package they put out: their elevator pitch is.

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 21 August, 2020, 09:12:27 AM

Quote from: sheridan on 21 August, 2020, 08:53:28 AM

Quote from: Tjm86 on 21 August, 2020, 07:14:38 AM
Fair enough, I can understand the frustration there.  Especially when you consider that Scarlet Traces is an example of greater creative ownership in the prog. 

Is it?  I thought it was creator-owned but that the creators sold the IP to Rebellion before starting on the most recent story?

Yeah that's my understanding. This also reveals that the idea of owning your own property isn't a simple promised land it can be made out to be. Ian Edgington and D'Irsaeli have assessed their options with a lot more practical insight than we and other 'sage' internet experts have and come up selling their property.

Why? Well I'd guess looking at the balance of risk, cost, reward and probably just the plain practicality of getting your story out there. They will fully understand the factors involved.

This is the thing isn't it.  IIRC Scarlet Traces started out of their own independent work but they took it to Dark Horse for a while.  The meg ran with the second series (counting their War of The Worlds adaptation as the first) along with a selection of D'israeli's independent work.

So having experience of going it alone, tackling the Yanks or throwing in with Rebellion it does seem that they have some idea of the pros and cons.  They seem to have made their decision on that basis.  So that raises the question of how Rebellion stacks up against the other options.

I'm all for Pat's (and Alan's and a lot of others) principle of ownership - what strikes me as most frustrating here is that this is the first we hear (from Pat at least) about a genuine offer of return of copyright (rather than just better deals going forward) - one that Pat knew about at the time.  As I said before, it looks like a chink in the door, however begrudging, but who pushed at it? I had my dates wrong - this is clearly after Maxwell buys them up, but before Sanders left, which wasnt that much later?  It is half a story - Pat's "it was just a ruse to wind up creators" seems a wild conclusion unless the other half of the story confirms that - has any comment been made by MacManus or indeed Gibson about this in the wake of Pat's blogpost?  I would love to hear their side of it, and maybe fill in the blanks of a pretty darn massive revelation  - If Moore had been persuaded back, if Pat and John had gained similar terms (Hilary Robinson gaining her copyright would be a few year down the line from this?).  Such a pivotal point in the comics history - why did it fail? why wasnt Pat (and John, and Moore for that matter) taking this seriously as an offer?  What was the catch?  Did anyone even look if there was one?  Did Moore just tell them to stuff it either way on the back of Watchmen et al (a shame for Gibson if so)?

Sanders is there the self styled progressive - if you look at how most comics had been created before Pat came along, they were more commodity than art.  See Tom Tully's famous opening line "My names Tom Tully and I earn more than the Prime Minister" - it wasnt there wasnt much money in comics, there just wasnt much art, or at least, much perception of a vaule as art beyond filling those pages that week, never to be seen again - the 5 year rule on reprints is another sign of that attitude.

2000AD changed that - it took long enough for that to be recognised, but (however bluntly Sanders is putting it here), that memo does seem to suggest that recognition had crept in.  Why did this fizzle out?  What did the creators do to try and push on this? What was the fatal blow to any progress on this?  I gotsta know! 

Possibly the America Reaper deal is no coincidinky, but also, when will we see Sanders book due out?  Has Pat seen an advanced copy and is getting his retaliation in first?

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 21 August, 2020, 11:12:06 AM
...I'm not quite sure why that particular Pat strip is of interest to the cinema world, as opposed to Slaine, ABCs, Nemesis, Marshal Law etc.

For the same reason there's been films of History of Violence, Accident Man and (imminently) Button Man. All primarily about men with guns in the present or near-future - fairly easy to realise on a modest budget.

American Reaper already looks like a movie, and has a beginning, middle and end. I think the high concept is also easily accessible - it's a great hook idea that old people are stealing young people's bodies. (And, as mentioned, the budget - it's mostly people waving guns around.)

You can drop the other titles as names ("Slaine, ABCs, Nemesis, Marshal Law etc."), but which particular stories do you think deserve to be turned into movies? Where's the story arc? Probably (given the grand sci-fi spectacle), some would work better as animated features (in terms of budget).

What Slaine story would work as a movie?

Quote from: Professor Bear on 21 August, 2020, 01:14:28 PM
I think Marshall Law is in a similar boat, with DC owning the comics, but not the adaptation rights.

You're probably thinking of Metalzoic, which was first published in colour by DC Comics in a short-lived range of high quality printed graphic novels (compared to the print quality of the era) and then reprinted in black and white in 2000AD, as every squaxx know.


Marshall Law was first published by Epic Comics (imprint of Marvel) but judging from its subsequent print history is owned wholly by Mills and O'Neill*.




* except for the crossovers with Pinhead Cenobite, Savage Dragon and The Mask.

Quote from: Funt Solo on 21 August, 2020, 06:00:40 PM
American Reaper already looks like a movie, and has a beginning, middle and end. I think the high concept is also easily accessible - it's a great hook idea that old people are stealing young people's bodies. (And, as mentioned, the budget - it's mostly people waving guns around.)

You can drop the other titles as names ("Slaine, ABCs, Nemesis, Marshal Law etc."), but which particular stories do you think deserve to be turned into movies? Where's the story arc? Probably (given the grand sci-fi spectacle), some would work better as animated features (in terms of budget).

What Slaine story would work as a movie?

Most of Sláine could be done on a reasonable budget (bear in mind that my prog slog has just go to the end of Dragonheist).  Main costs would be warp spasms, the time monster and the dragons.  The rest is people running around in loin cloths hitting each other with swords and axes (half-dead might be expensive depending on which zombie approach  you wish to take).

As long as you've got access to some industrial waste ground, Marshal Law needn't be prohibitively expensive, while still doing justice to the source material.

Then I'd place American Reaper in costs, followed by ABC Warriors and (much to my chagrin as it's my favourite) Nemesis the Warlock.

Quote from: Leigh S on 21 August, 2020, 05:06:34 PM
it wasnt there wasnt much money in comics, there just wasnt much art, or at least, much perception of a vaule as art beyond filling those pages that week, never to be seen again - the 5 year rule on reprints is another sign of that attitude.

2000AD changed that - it took long enough for that to be recognised,

It's probably worth reflecting on this against the backdrop of British comics of the time.  TPO (IIRC) is pretty clear on the life expectancy of many comic titles.  Think about the "hatch - match - dispatch" policy of the IPC days.  As for comic collecting, I'm sure many of us remember the perception it had as a niche, nerdy activity back in those days.

Wasn't it the Titan / Eagle Comics reprint issue that got everyone's noses out of joint?  This is part of what "Tharg's Head Revisited" from Prog 500 was aiming at, no?  So the value was recognised but the largesse not shared.

Been meaning to add my two penn'orth for a while, so I've been catching up on the last few pages, and I am frankly unnerved by what I read. A complex argument conducted with respectful debate and carefully chosen examples? Don't you people know what the internet is FOR?

I've often said that while I find much of his recent output a bit tiresome, his stupendous body of work and contribution to 2000ad means that he has earned the right, in perpetuity, to four or five pages in any prog to sound off about whatever the fuck he wants - and it usually looks beautiful (in my head, Slaine is now just a framing tool for some stunning fantasy art, I long ago lost interest in the character's angst and speechifying).

As others have done to death, the creator vs work-for-hire debate is not the simple good v evil situation Pat sometimes makes it out to be, it's a complex thing, especially in a rapidly developing industry. Maybe in the future, when print media has sadly died, creators will not be as reliant on publishers and the costs/risks will be less for a creator-owned property, but they said Myspace would destroy the record labels and that didn't happen. As Pat would testify, the Suits will always exploit the market as much as they can, and they often react faster to changes have the money and clout to succeed, but that's a truism of every single aspect of society (yes, thank you Pat, I got that decades ago, can the robots be funny again please?) I do think however that creators now are more savvy and have more freedom and options than previously, so fingers crossed for that ongoing battle.

American Reaper felt like a movie pitch from day one, and he and Langley weren't coy about that, which is one of the reasons I think it offended me (there were others). Interesting news in that piece - his own script drowned in development hell, so new people are rewriting it? That could be interesting. Whatever happens to that movie, in Pat's revisionist lens it will ultimately be a glorious victory/shameful suppression of the People's Rights.

tl/dr version-
*You people are nice
*Pat's a legend and no more Ro-jaws makes me sad
*It's a complex and changing industry, but you've always gotta Be Vigilant or the suits will fuck you over
*Pat's in full spin mode

Fascinating stuff all round, and I'm getting a better idea now why Sexy Ostriches is more likely to be filmed than Nemesis.

Anyway, while we're dreaming, a Slaine TV series would be nice, wrapping things up at the end of the Horned God.  Obviously with Harry Styles in the lead role. (Sorry, a little callback humour for those who were here in the Mayor's time.)

Quote from: sheridan on 21 August, 2020, 06:10:08 PM

You're probably thinking of Metalzoic, which was first published in colour by DC Comics in a short-lived range of high quality printed graphic novels (compared to the print quality of the era) and then reprinted in black and white in 2000AD, as every squaxx know.


Marshall Law was first published by Epic Comics (imprint of Marvel) but judging from its subsequent print history is owned wholly by Mills and O'Neill*.

Mills has alluded to the idea that the publishing rights for Marshal Law are now owned by DC.

Well for another example of why self publishing is such a challenge the feature in The Meg this month about John Wagner's effort to get Rok The God out is quite chilling. I mean that John - F*&kin' Wagner can't just drop a project into the crowdfunding arena and walk out smelling of filthy cash is a terrible thing*.

Its a bloody stupid industry we follow with such passion!

*Side note to say THANK YOU Jim Campbell, if it wasn't for the fact  - that even having met you a few times - I still believe you are a deathly pale goth and thus incapable of blushing, I'd assume you are aflush with a pinky glow as you read John make clear what a lovely person you are.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 21 August, 2020, 09:03:09 PM

Quote from: sheridan on 21 August, 2020, 06:10:08 PM
Marshall Law was first published by Epic Comics (imprint of Marvel) but judging from its subsequent print history is owned wholly by Mills and O'Neill*.

Mills has alluded to the idea that the publishing rights for Marshal Law are now owned by DC.

Interesting.  Seeing as it was originally published by the competition and has been through a few other publishers in its time.  Has DC ever exercised that right?  I've bought up various ML series as they came out (except for the first one which I had to get in reprint form when it was serialised in Strip - The Comic Grows Up) so haven't kept up with what other editions it's gone through.

IIRC Pat said that Marshal Law is now owned by DC but Kevin O'Neil and himself have a percentage of the sales along with the film rights. DC can use the character how they want and create their own Marshal Law stories if they wish as the attempt of a Batman/ Marshal Law comic shows so if DC wanted they could do a whole Before Watchmen/ Doomsday Clock to  the Marshal Law universe

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 21 August, 2020, 09:16:00 PM
I'd assume you are aflush with a pinky glow as you read John make clear what a lovely person you are.

Honestly, I was very much taken aback by John's kind words, but I think it says more about John's down-to-earth nature that he finds it surprising that I'd be more than willing to pay back every damn thing he's given me over the years as a comic reader with a little bit of free work. It's both a privilege and a pleasure.

Quote from: Professor Bear on 19 August, 2020, 08:40:36 PM
I think you might be overestimating how much writers are concerned by how they are influenced by the work of others, and yet they can still be highly-protective of a specific version of a story they happened to have produced themselves.
Harlan Ellison sued James Cameron over Terminator, yet Ellison also dismissively points out that the basis of his own tv show was taken from a Robert Heinlein novel (although he erroneously identifies it as a Harry Harrison) in this rather lengthy dissection of the car crash that was The Star Lost (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOsPYKNFNig) and how it was just a mish-mash of other things.  I would recommend the bit starting around 13.30 or so for Ellison being quite unabashed about what derivative horseshit he knew was turning in, but he was still clearly possessive of it until he angrily rage-quit the whole enterprise.

James Cameron vehemently denies having even seen, let alone copied, Harlan Ellison's episode of The Outer Limits, Soldier. Having seen the episode, I tend to side with Cameron; they bear little similarity.

The Terminator does bear huge similarities to an X-Men story, Days Of Future Past. And Cameron is an admitted fan of the X-Men, and was at one point in the nineties  set to direct an X-Men film.

And to muddy the matters more, John Byrne, who plotted and drew the X-Men story Days Of Future Past has since admitted that he lifted the plot from a Dr Who episode, Day Of The Daleks (if you ever see this episode, made in 1972, it bears a shocking resemblance in both story and tone, to The Terminator, far more so than Ellison's Soldier).

Quote from: sheridan on 21 August, 2020, 09:46:44 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 21 August, 2020, 09:03:09 PM

Quote from: sheridan on 21 August, 2020, 06:10:08 PM
Marshall Law was first published by Epic Comics (imprint of Marvel) but judging from its subsequent print history is owned wholly by Mills and O'Neill*.

Mills has alluded to the idea that the publishing rights for Marshal Law are now owned by DC.

Interesting.  Seeing as it was originally published by the competition and has been through a few other publishers in its time.  Has DC ever exercised that right?  I've bought up various ML series as they came out (except for the first one which I had to get in reprint form when it was serialised in Strip - The Comic Grows Up) so haven't kept up with what other editions it's gone through.

A quick check of my copy of the Collected Marshal Law, published by DC in 2013, and the copyright is to Mills & O'Neill. So if DC now own the rights to the character, it is because Mills & O'Neill sold it to them.

Over the course of the strips history, Marshall Law has been publish by Epic Comic / Marvel, Apocalypse Publishing / Toxic, Dark Horse, Image Comic and the collected edition by DC Comics.

A quick check of the recent Ro-Busters collected edition, and The Tera-Meks is copyright to Pat Mills, but no mention of Dave Gibbons who drew the strip and created their visual design.

Quote from: seanharry on 21 August, 2020, 11:49:30 PM
A quick check of the recent Ro-Busters collected edition, and The Tera-Meks is copyright to Pat Mills, but no mention of Dave Gibbons who drew the strip and created their visual design.

*coughcoughcoughACCIDENTMANcoughcough*

The only reason why I got Spacewarp (and having an AD subscription) is because it is available digitally. A lot off cases I just do not get the self-published material since it is not available digitally. It literally will cost me 4 times more when I have to include shipping as well. The advanced of the "evil" publishing "monsters" is that their material is available regularly and digitally. I would like to support the people that self-publish but I am not prepared to pay the "additional" cost of save (to guarantee that you get your stuff you must use the expensive options and not the PO) shipping.

Slaine will work as animation show, I believe

PS – This is completely off topic but if The77 is available digitally please let me know.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 August, 2020, 11:23:22 PM

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 21 August, 2020, 09:16:00 PM
I'd assume you are aflush with a pinky glow as you read John make clear what a lovely person you are.

Honestly, I was very much taken aback by John's kind words, but I think it says more about John's down-to-earth nature that he finds it surprising that I'd be more than willing to pay back every damn thing he's given me over the years as a comic reader with a little bit of free work. It's both a privilege and a pleasure.

See lovely (bet this makes him squirm!)

Quote from: seanharry on 21 August, 2020, 11:49:30 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 21 August, 2020, 09:03:09 PM
Mills has alluded to the idea that the publishing rights for Marshal Law are now owned by DC.

A quick check of my copy of the Collected Marshal Law, published by DC in 2013, and the copyright is to Mills & O'Neill. So if DC now own the rights to the character, it is because Mills & O'Neill sold it to them.

I mentioned Publishing rights being owned by DC rather than Copyright. We don't know the specific terms of those publishing rights or how long they last but Mills & O'Neill may have made have made a particular deal with DC so they could finally get the backing for the ML collection after Top Shelf dropped it. According to Mills it's up to DC whether there would be more ML stories or not, but all other rights are owned by the creators.

Quote from: seanharry on 21 August, 2020, 11:49:30 PM
A quick check of the recent Ro-Busters collected edition, and The Tera-Meks is copyright to Pat Mills, but no mention of Dave Gibbons who drew the strip and created their visual design.

Not to disparage the great Gibbons (or the marvelous Mills) but aren't there examples of 'strong influences' for both Charlie and the Terrameks?

Kowing Pat's bundle of research method of comics writing, I have long presumed Pat would have provided those images - see much of the rest of RoBusters robots

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 20 August, 2020, 02:01:09 PM
To be fair with Rennie, when he ploughs the same furrow, he often creates something that's fresh: the Angel Gang rebook; the superb Jaegir (the only thing in the RT universe really worth a damn for me); Diaboliks. It doesn't feel like he's bored or going through the motions. With Mills's more recent output, it's like watching a remastered DVD at 50% speed. It's a bit more glossy, but we're getting the same story again, playing out at half speed.

I've yet to read Spacewarp. But if it treads the same ground and is peppered with the same Icky-style worldview, I might just end up angry rather than intrigued/entertained.

This for me too^^^^

Article about American Reaper:

https://downthetubes.net/?p=120901 (https://downthetubes.net/?p=120901)

Quote from: Leigh S on 22 August, 2020, 12:13:40 PM
Kowing Pat's bundle of research method of comics writing, I have long presumed Pat would have provided those images - see much of the rest of RoBusters robots

That's why I mentioned both Gibbons and Mills.

i guess the upcoming Slaine will be the last one ( this and Requiem Vampire Knight not continuing will hurt) :(

was Defoe completed?

Quote from: rs_jr on 24 August, 2020, 03:10:23 AM
i guess the upcoming Slaine will be the last one ( this and Requiem Vampire Knight not continuing will hurt) :(

was Defoe completed?

Yep, even though Sláine has meandered for years IMO, I'll be very sorry to see him go.  Depite one or two shaky choices, the art has always been outstanding for a very long time.  And I have a very, very early memory of reading the first Sláine ever and my dad telling me how to pronounce it.  Though I suspect I'd think he was a bit of a gobshite if I met him, Sláine's an old mate.

I like Pat as much as anybody but he's been treading water for a number of years. I found the last Defoe series unreadable and Slaine survives on having generally excellent artists. Despite his optimism I would bet a substantial amount the Space Warp isn't around in a year's time. What's their business model? Artists working for free up front then getting a substantial royalty?

I often wonder how when he was editor how he would have felt if a writer rang him up and gave him a bollocking - my guess is the writer wouldn't have been invited back.

Just imagine of DC or Marvel was the owners of Slaine, ABC Warriors , Defoe, Flesh and even Strontium Dog what they would have done. I am sure these characters will been incorporated into their universes with no regard to whomever created them. Multiple cross-overs and the popular ones have not one be multiple series not even remotely similar to what they where.

Well, quite. For all Mills's gripes at the apparent evil of 2000 AD and Rebellion, almost no-one else has got to play with his toys. 2000 AD has very few strips you might consider 'house characters'—only really Dredd, Anderson and Rogue Trooper. And even those have had one 'showrunner' for long periods.

Mills was instrumental in creating 2000AD so his departure from the pages of the comic will be a great loss.
Whatever you think of Mills output, he has a unique voice and style and I, for one, will miss this from 2000AD.
He's also managed to attracts and seek out some of the finest artists to ever work on the comic in its long illustrious history.

I really hope his relationship improves with Rebellion so more of his challenging storylines can be enjoyed by the widest possible audience.

Pat Mills is digging up and re-airing his grievances as a way of generating word of mouth for his new self-publishing venture. The end.

If Mr Mills has indeed 'walked away' from Rebellion, then I doubt it is because Rebellion are treating him any differently now than in the past. Mr Mills has been working away at Spacewarp for a good while now so he needs to generate significant interest in the book following the digital release.

You do wonder how much someone can continue burning bridges until a publisher says: actually, we're done.

Quote from: Bolt-01 on 25 August, 2020, 03:01:19 PM
Pat Mills is digging up and re-airing his grievances as a way of generating word of mouth for his new self-publishing venture. The end.

This has been his play at conventions and in interviews for something like 4 decades now.  I'm surprised some think of it as a new development and/or something aimed at Rebellion in particular.

His latest let us "make love not war" posting: https://www.millsverse.com/mr-mills-exceedingly-good-cakes/ (https://www.millsverse.com/mr-mills-exceedingly-good-cakes/)

"Let them eat cake". I am actually getting bored with this rating and self-boosting, how bad everyone is and how the Spacewarp will save the universe

It's like he wants Rebellion to scream "You'll never work here again, mister!" Thing is, at this point, why would you commission Mills?

I also note now that he's specifically talking about the UK industry rather than conics as a whole. Well, the UK industry barely exists. What's left of it will have been hit bad by COVID. If these ventures cease to be profitable for too long they will just... stop. I'm not saying 2000 AD couldn't or shouldn't up its royalty rates. I am saying we know just one side of the story.

And Mills, I see, argues 2000 AD royalties are well below the industry rate. What does that mean? Is that now an international comparison? If so, with what? Image, as has been noted elsewhere on this thread, has an entirely different business model. French publishers, as Jim has said, don't tend to pay out buckets of money. Perhaps 2000 AD should offer Mills an Image-like deal, and when he inevitably rejects it, note that should be the end of the bullshit.

He is going the wrong way of promoting Spacewarp by attacking the people that for the last 20 years publish his stories. If they are so "evil" way not severe your links with them and do your own thing all those years ago.

It gets him column inches, I guess. But there is a less aggressive way to do this, and repeatedly slamming Rebellion—basically the only reason most of British comics history is still a viable entity—seems short-sighted at best. I hope for his sake, Spacewarp does well; if it doesn't, he might find out what happens when a freelancer repeatedly poisons the well.

I do not think he is burning his bridges anymore I would say that he is using a thermonuclear device to annihilate the existence off any bridges

From the comments here, I'm not sure everyone viewing Pat's blog are doing so to show solidarity as he assumes in his latest blog - moreso to divine if that really is the last time we will see his characters in 2000AD?

I find this all more than a bit depressing.  I'm with Pat on copyright, so much so that the memo has really infuriated me, but not just in the way Pat might suppose - The idea that there seemed to be a genuine chance to return copyright back then just breaks my heart. Pat is more interested in using this to show Sanders sharp practices, but if that is the case, where is the missing chapter of this tale where Moore or Mills called his bluff on returning copyright and it exposed it for the sham it was?

And if it really was a "divide and conquer" strategy to give one creator ownership, how does he square that with him angling for and getting copyright on "The Terra Meks"?

Bald men fighting over a comb....

Would be a shame if Defoe and savage didn't appear again and apart from the art slaine and abc warriors have not moved forward in over 10 years maybe longer.

Aye. I am eternally grateful to him for Sláine, Nemesis, the history of Dredd's world. the ABC Warriors and, of course, the existence of 2000ad, but his ranting does rather get on my wick sometimes. 

Mills confirms he's done writing new stories for 2000 AD but leaves some wiggle room with "just finishing existing ones" in a bizarre Twitter thread that's a whisker away from accusing The Boys of plagiarism: https://twitter.com/patmillscomics/status/1299450861853302798?s=21

I only read the first few issues of The Boys, didn't like it much so never went any further. Is it similar to Marshal Law?

pat mills wrote a lot of stuff i love but he seems to be going the alan moore route and i am not a fan of that

Quote from: The Monarch on 28 August, 2020, 10:24:11 PM
pat mills wrote a lot of stuff i love but he seems to be going the alan moore route and i am not a fan of that

What, the path of strong principles and admirable personal integrity? Yeah, god forbid.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 August, 2020, 10:11:41 PM
Mills confirms he's done writing new stories for 2000 AD but leaves some wiggle room with "just finishing existing ones" in a bizarre Twitter thread that's a whisker away from accusing The Boys of plagiarism: https://twitter.com/patmillscomics/status/1299450861853302798?s=21

Wow. So many questionable assertions in so few characters - guess that sums up both Twitter and Pat.

I'm glad I don't do Twitter, because Pat is someone I would follow, and a constant drip-feed of tosh like that would likely have eventually finished off my remaining respect for him.

The one that irked me most? "partly because policing Rebellion and my 2000ad stories takes up so much time".

Quote from: Dandontdare on 28 August, 2020, 10:44:06 PM
The one that irked me most? "partly because policing Rebellion and my 2000ad stories takes up so much time".

"How to make friends and influence people"

If you read his Facebook postings, then he states that he will continue with the current open stories in AD but most likely too close them up. He will not produce new series for AD he will focus on Spacewarp rather. 

I do not mind self-believe and confidence but there is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. I loathe arrogance and this is when I stop supporting the person/cause/work.

When is the last time that we have seen anything that is original and unique from Pat? For me even Spacewarp felt like a rehash but weaker version of his work in AD.  Maybe it is time to see what some else can do with certain properties or just put it in limbo (I have been waiting for almost 36 years for the conclusion of Halo Jones, so what is a few more years ?)

Quotes from "Be Pure! Be Vigilant! Behave!" (Mills, 2017):

- "Judge Dredd: The Cursed Earth, Kelvin Gosnell ... gave me the plot, based on the film Damnation Alley"
- "Harlem Heroes ... our own version of Rollerball"
- "we had Mach One looking like the Six Million Dollar Man and the computer ... 'inspired' by ... a Marvel comic"
- "cool hardware in Flesh was similarly 'inspired' by vehicles in a Marvel comic"
- "Fleshdozers ... were based on the cover of ... War with the Robots"
- "Angus McKie ... produced a ... sf cover that inspired my character Charlie"
- "I was given copyright on ... Yesterday's Hero, a Defiant Ones story ... and The Terra Meks, based on High Noon"

---

- "I don't take kindly to anyone copying my own stories"

---

Quote from Twitter (Mills, 2020): "rip off rip off rip off"

A lot of us suffer under a condition called "Do as I say, not as I do"

Quote from: maryanddavid on 28 August, 2020, 10:13:44 PM
I only read the first few issues of The Boys, didn't like it much so never went any further. Is it similar to Marshal Law?

A fair few critics at the time pointed out the similarities in the basic concept - in a world where superheroes are lauded but are secretly crap, one hero (well, a group in The Boys) dares to take out the trash (and also the Superman analogue is ultra-patriotic and the worst of them all because America is rotten to the core) - but they're very different in execution.

But if you're focusing solely on the high concept, sell it to Hollywood angle, then they're probably close enough that having one adapted for film or television rules out the other.

Watchmen a bit of an elephant in the room there.

I'm always happy to cut Uncle Pat as much slack as possible- being vociferously belligerent about something or someone is both his method and in many ways his medium, even if he's frequently inaccurate and/or unfair. It's one of the things that makes him such a unique and wonderful creator - but equally it makes me glad I don't have to deal with him professionally.

The Boys thing is daft - if it's a rip-off of Marshall Law then so is Veitch's Bratpack and half a dozen other comics. More likely that all are inspired by taking the Watchmen approach to superheroes and throwing in some additional nastiness and gross-out humour, and all feeding off each other: in other words, it's part of a whole sub-genre.

That Ennis and Robertson got their version to the small screen first owes as much to Kickass and Preacher as the good Marshall.

Complaining that The Boys is a rip off of Marshal Law is a bit like complaining that The Umbrella Academy is a rip-off of The X-Men.

Quote from: 13school on 29 August, 2020, 12:05:59 PM
they're probably close enough that having one adapted for film or television rules out the other.

These are known as twin movies where each pair came out in the same year:
- Armageddon & Deep Impact
- Volcano & Dante's Peak
- Antz & A Bug's Life
- Olympus Has Fallen & White House Down

These are "same story beats, different wallpaper":
- Oblivion & Wall-E
- Terminator 2 & Looper
- Aladdin & Les Miserables

Whisper it: Dredd & The Raid?

Quote from: broodblik on 29 August, 2020, 05:11:31 AM
If you read his Facebook postings, then he states that he will continue with the current open stories in AD but most likely too close them up. He will not produce new series for AD he will focus on Spacewarp rather. 

That sounds like a bit of an empty threat, considering the last entirely new material Pat produced for Rebellion was American Reaper, nine years ago!

That statement about wrapping up his old stories is vague enough that he could potentially keep stringing them out for ages yet, but I really hope he doesn't. Slaine in particular should've ended years back, the final pages of The Book Of Invasions would've been a perfect finale for the character, but it just kept on going. And going.

Possibly a bit pedantic, but since it was in the Meg's Creator Owned slot Rebellion paid a page rate for American Reaper but Pat and Clint Langley own (or their company, I'm hazy on the details) own it. I suspect he's done pretty well out of that deal.

Would be nice to know if that exposure helped in getting the screen deal...

QuoteWhat, the path of strong principles and admirable personal integrity? Yeah, god forbid.

Nah not that on their side for that tbh its the whole "everyone after me should not play with my toys and anyone who does so is a hack who cannot think of their own ideas thing"

that always bugged me about moore considering the stuff he lifted for his own stuff

Quote from: The Monarch on 31 August, 2020, 03:31:08 PM
that always bugged me about moore considering the stuff he lifted for his own stuff

I'm not sure that holds water. I don't recall Moore every saying anything of the sort about his straight WFH stuff — Swamp Thing, for example. In fact, Moore felt so strongly that Delano did more heavy lifting on developing the character of Constantine, that he persuaded DC to split the writers' creator credit between the two of them.

The Watchmen characters were based on Charlton Comics characters in the original pitch, weren't they? I suppose you could make that argument there, if you really wanted to.

Quote from: CalHab on 31 August, 2020, 03:48:18 PM
The Watchmen characters were based on Charlton Comics characters in the original pitch, weren't they? I suppose you could make that argument there, if you really wanted to.

Because Moore was asked to do something with the DC's newly-acquired Charlton characters, but when DC saw what he intended, they suggested that he swap them out for new characters rather than leaving their new acquisitions virtually unusable by the end of the series.

In the middle of an SBT-inspired Swampie re-read, and what really strikes me about the Moore run is the depth of respect he shows for his predecessors, constantly referencing, involving and crediting them. I cannot imagine him writing ST against the stated wishes of Wein and Wrightson (the Barrie estate kerfuffle is subtly different, being with a posthumous trust rather than the creator themself).

Moore's beef with people using his stuff is not the fact of it so much as that he still demands the rights to his own work (whether his claim is valid is another debate entirely, and one we've had many times) and thinks people using his creations while these disputes are unresolved is hugely disrespectful to him, and demeaning to them,
even as it is presented/sold as a credit/development to his work.

Given the extent to which he has supported other authors and artists working on 'his' material in the past, I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't have cheerily endorsed additional non-Moore Halo Jones etc. if he actually owned the thing himself.

The thing I believe why most creators do not like other writers continuing with their creations is that the original source material is not always respected. I many cases the new writer is taking the creation into a direction that is not the original intent. If you look at Frank Miller, he created Elektra and felt betrayed by Marvel continuing his creation. He did not work for them again; that is how strongly he felt about it. 

League of extrodinary gentlemen is 100 per cent lifting other peoples stuff heck most of it may be in the public domain but still

Saying that though i can understand if creators do not like their work being disrespected after all we still bare the scars of the 90s reboots

I don't think it's wildly controversial to suggest that a creator writes their own character better than anyone else does - or to suggest if you're genuinely able to take on someone else's character and make them your own, you'd probably do even better writing your own characters. I can understand a fan thinking "I like Slaine, it'd be fun to write Slaine" - and that's what fanzines are for. For what it's worth, I can think of better uses of Moore's time than writing LXG, but it's not as if he's screwing anyone over by doing so.

Quote from: Greg M. on 31 August, 2020, 06:27:14 PM
I don't think it's wildly controversial to suggest that a creator writes their own character better than anyone else does

The creator will write the character to their original intent, so better in that respect. That does not mean that another creator can't take that character and write stories that others find 'better' as that's a subjective term. So I think Frank Miller's Daredevil is better than Stan Lee and Bill Everett's, or Alan Moore's Swamp Thing stories with various artists are better than Len Wein and Bernie Wrightson's - I use these examples only as they are referenced here there are numerous other examples of stories written by folks who didn't create certain characters whose stories I prefer to the folks who created them.

So while its not controversial it seems its certainly far from universally true.

And you don't think that Alan Moore would have written even better stories with a character he'd created himself and had complete control over? Likewise Miller? As it stands, they both end up as just a significant chapter in the story, rather than (with the artist, in Moore's case) the whole of the story.

JK Rowling?  *runs*

Quote from: Greg M. on 31 August, 2020, 06:27:14 PMFor what it's worth, I can think of better uses of Moore's time than writing LXG, but it's not as if he's screwing anyone over by doing so.

In most cases I believe that the original will more likely be the better than the "remake".  I can understand why creators do not want other writers working on their characters.  We can just see how DC/Marvel pilferage their own characters. Reboots on reboots, resets, reworks, re-imaging every "third" episode. I do understand why Mills do not want someone else to continue his stories.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with "lifting" things that are in the public domain. If there is, that's almost all of human culture down the drain: no more Greek or Norse or (back on topic) Irish myths for can start.

It's what you do with public domain characters that makes it good or bad: for my money Moore's Mina Harker is a far more interesting character then Stoker's, ditto his Nemo(s) and even Hawley Griffin.

Quote from: Greg M. on 31 August, 2020, 06:59:33 PM
And you don't think that Alan Moore would have written even better stories with a character he'd created himself and had complete control over? Likewise Miller? As it stands, they both end up as just a significant chapter in the story, rather than (with the artist, in Moore's case) the whole of the story.

Well we don't know. They may have done, but they may have been inspired to by the work of others to elevate the stories they wanted to tell. I just think its clumsy to use absolutes like:

The creator(s) always writes the best stories for their creation

The creator(s)' best work is always on their own creations

Is just not always going to be the case in either circumstance. That doesn't deflect from the rights and wrongs of whether someone else should work on the properties of others, BUT both sets of arguments are more nuanced than that and definately in the small ecosystem of the comics industry.

Have a nice evening, Colin.

I was just reading the article in the Meg about Rok of the Reds.

According to that, John Wagner is several thousand pounds down on the first one and 10k down on the 2nd one.

So it would seem owning the copyright isn't the be all and end all of getting paid a commensurate rate.

As has been stated above once you start taking production, distribution and marketing into account, the costs add up pretty quickly.

It's also a pretty sad state of affairs when a comic by Britain's leading comic writer of the last 50 years can't make a profit.

Wagner gets the short end of so much in the industry. He should be talked about in the same breath as Morrison, Ennis, Moore, et al. His body of work on Dredd alone is the equal of the very best in modern comics, but then you add in everything else he's done and... well. That he's barely a blip on the radar to so many feels very unfair, but then life isn't fair. You do wonder what might have happened had Wagner thrown his lot in with Rebellion for Rok.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 04 September, 2020, 09:07:22 AM
You do wonder what might have happened had Wagner thrown his lot in with Rebellion for Rok.

AFAIK, Rok had been shopped around various publishers for years prior.  No takers.

But he did say on a podcast about a possible tie-up with Rebellion—but then they bought ROTR and at that point any deal became unviable.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 04 September, 2020, 09:29:33 AM
But he did say on a podcast about a possible tie-up with Rebellion—but then they bought ROTR and at that point any deal became unviable.

ROTR ?

Roy of the Rovers.

Obviously you couldn't have more than one football based strip in your overall portfolio....unlike multiple future detective, future war, mythical warrior strips. Or indeed two strips about travelling the galaxy.

And suddenly I realise what must be blindingly obvious to everyone else on the board - the name Rok of the Reds is a play on Roy of the Rovers.  I'm not quite old enough for senility, so it must be stupidity.

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 04 September, 2020, 09:45:48 AM
And suddenly I realise what must be blindingly obvious to everyone else on the board - the name Rok of the Reds is a play on Roy of the Rovers.  I'm not quite old enough for senility, so it must be stupidity.

Double the stupidity here, Jayzus!

Originally it was going to be Rom of the Reds and got changed to Rok to avoid copyright infringement of another character.

Quote from: Magnetica on 04 September, 2020, 09:38:20 AMObviously you couldn't have more than one football based strip in your overall portfolio....unlike multiple future detective, future war, mythical warrior strips. Or indeed two strips about travelling the galaxy.

I only have vague memories of the interview (which, now I think about it, might have been on YouTube), and so I don't recall the exact course of events that led to what Wagner decided to do. That said, I do imagine with ROTR having so much brand behind it that a new comic—even by Wagner—might have been overlooked and not had the same level of marketing clout behind it.

It is a real shame to hear that John has struggled with financing, and taken a hit. He has done so much for me, for everyone reading 2000AD and beyond, and seems a very decent human being.

I'd have thought Rok of the Reds would be ideal for adaptation to an animated series. Hopefully someone in television/streaming realises this.

Somebody call Joe Cornish. I bet he could capture the brit-footy/scifi vibe in a movie adaptation

Quote from: Magnetica on 04 September, 2020, 09:49:45 AM
Originally it was going to be Rom of the Reds and got changed to Rok to avoid copyright infringement of another character.

It was originally Rom of the Rovers — double the infringement.

I'd like to see a comparison between The Boys and Marshall Law, beyond policing Supes there isn't much as far as I can tell.

For me this completely different. I can not see how someone can say that Ennis stole the idea from Mills. Then if it is the case everyone stole from Superman

I guess everyone ultimately stole from Gilgamesh.

Quote from: Proudhuff on 19 September, 2020, 03:03:07 PM
I'd like to see a comparison between The Boys and Marshall Law, beyond policing Supes there isn't much as far as I can tell.

I might be remembering it incorrectly, but does Marshal Law have to drink a magic potion to be able to take down supes?

Probably the key point is that there's a lot of "borrowed inspiration" and homage and standing on the shoulders of giants in the creative arts. It's a bit hypocritical for one creator to claim that when they do it, it's just part of the natural flow of things but when someone else does it it's theft.

Then again - there's copyright law, which Stranger Things (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53998711) and Banksy (https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-54189113) have tussled with in recent news stories. (The Banksy one is actually about trademark law, but he's only got himself into that mess because he's avoiding copyright law. Or she. Or them. Or it: could be The Phantom!)

Anyone notice what I assume is a thinly veiled swipe at Pat in this month's Megazine?

Classy.

I might be remembering it incorrectly, but does Marshal Law have to drink a magic potion to be able to take down supes?

A special gun with multiple types of speciality bullet, IIRC.

Quote from: Magnetica on 19 September, 2020, 05:42:37 PM
Anyone notice what I assume is a thinly veiled swipe at Pat in this month's Megazine?

I don't want to go through the whole thing looking ... so for me the answer is no - what was it?

Quote from: Dandontdare on 19 September, 2020, 06:14:05 PM

Quote from: Magnetica on 19 September, 2020, 05:42:37 PM
Anyone notice what I assume is a thinly veiled swipe at Pat in this month's Megazine?

I don't want to go through the whole thing looking ... so for me the answer is no - what was it?

I must admit I didn't pick up on anything - but very possibly me being daft???

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 19 September, 2020, 06:15:20 PM

Quote from: Dandontdare on 19 September, 2020, 06:14:05 PM

Quote from: Magnetica on 19 September, 2020, 05:42:37 PM
Anyone notice what I assume is a thinly veiled swipe at Pat in this month's Megazine?

I don't want to go through the whole thing looking ... so for me the answer is no - what was it?

I must admit I didn't pick up on anything - but very possibly me being daft???

Nope I did not notice anything myself. I am joining the daft club

The first page of the Anderson story has a pretty much completely irrelevant opening scene (compared to the rest of the story) and in it a character has a thought that is picked up by Anderson's side kick:

"I'll make them pay! No royalties, eh? How about no stadium?".

Ah yes, I did chuckle at that one. Took it as a generic droid-grouse rather than Pat-specific though, but he is the Daddy of that club.

LOL I don't see that helping the comic's anti-establishment credentials much.