.
This is your chance to ask the Tharg who doesn't do interviews anything you want to know about his time on the Galaxy's Greatest, first as sub-editor (1980-1984), and again as editor (1987-1993). They were the best of times, they were the worst of times.
Burton poached schoolboy Steve Dillon from Marvel UK and coached Morrison through all 4 phases of Zenith, so whether your question is a nerdish 'whose idea were the Horned God intro pages?' or a controversial 'what on Earth happened to 2000ad in the 90s?', there's plenty to ask him about.
I'll let y'all know the deadline for questions, and I'll post a link to the ECBT site when the podcast goes up online.
"Michael Fleischer — why?!"
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 09 September, 2016, 09:39:25 PM
"Michael Fleischer — why?!"
Haha! I was making notes for questions earlier, and that's
exactly what number 9 says.
I suspect the above will provide the template for many questions, certainly those regarding
Wireheads,
Dead Meat, and
Kelly's Eye.
Burton played midwife to Milligan classics
Freaks and
Shadows, and handed Liam Sharp, Chris Weston, Kev Walker, and Simon Coleby their first proper series, so there's good stuff to ask about as well.
Leave Kelly's Eye alone!
What did he think of the robot version of himself they used in the Tharg stories? Not just the look but Burt's personality.
Quote from: maryanddavid on 10 September, 2016, 12:02:02 AM
Leave Kelly's Eye alone!
If only Alan McKenzie had taken the same attitude.
Cheers,
Dash! Burt's unusual in that he's the only droid who continued to play a significant role in Tharg strips (and the Nerve Centre/letters page) long after their human counterpart left the comic, so someone must like him.
While the rest of you are busy polishing your questions about the decision to bring back Bad Jack Keller and
The Mean Team with Alan Hebden instead of Wagner/Grant*, it's occurred to me that I've buried the lead of this story.
Burton is currently writing a memoir of his time in comics, so whatever questions you pose here will stir long forgotten memories and influence the topics covered in a book that will reveal all concerning the most critical period in
2000ad's history.
* ... and to bring back Henry Moon without The Mean Team but with Hilary Robinson
Hi, Richard was there then for the amazing deadman & tales of deadman & the crossover into Necropolis, does richard remember how this idea came about?
There was a move over to all colour in this time, how much extra pressure did that put on resources, was it a happy creative choice or a head ake to keep up with toxic or the times?
Johnny Alpha dies! how did the editorial staff, react to this when scripted, was their any resistance?
Slaine The Horned God, it was jaw dropping the first time i seen it in the prog, friend of mine that did not evening read comics ware talking about it, did it have a big impact in sales of the prog or was it the graphic novel that was the big success.
The glossy cover from prog 589 was a beautiful addition to 2000ad that made it stand out from Eagle, Battle, ect. who idea was it and what ware the initial reasons, was their resistance with management over the necessary price hike to maybe pay for it or ware they happy to let editorial carry on with these inventions ?
thanks
.
Thanks very much, James - that's an interview's worth in itself!
I was thinking about The Dead Man/Necropolis too: how far back did they know where all the stuff about Dredd ageing was headed*, and did Wagner just announce he was going to need another story slot in the prog for The Dead Man?
Mention of the move to colour and better paper is interesting too - I definitely think of Burton's reign more in terms of those kinds of changes than new strips or characters.
* It started as far back as Hitman (573), right after Oz, and Bat Mugger (585), with passing remarks about Dredd's reaction speed and the march of time
Make sure you don't ask him about his marriages to Elizabeth Taylor.
Have you read Steve MacManus' The Mighty One? Thoughts?
The third Tharg to write a book covering the history of 2000AD - how many more to come, I wonder?
I'm curious to know how deliberate the decision was to run super grown-up stuff like Shamballa alongside super trendy / pretentious stuff like Hewligan's Haircut alongside pretty child-friendly stuff like Junker.
Was this all commissioned, or was it just coincidence of what the regular contributors just sent in to Tharg?
Also, how much did he shit himself when John Wagner said he wasn't going to write any more Dredd for the Prog?
Quote from: sheridan on 11 September, 2016, 05:54:36 AM
The third Tharg to write a book covering the history of 2000AD - how many more to come, I wonder?
Probably a good time to point out that the book Burton's writing is not (as yet) anything to do with Rebellion.
Burton sees the book as challenging the dominant narrative of the comic's decline then resurrection, so I expect it will double as a biography/apology for his protege, Alan McKenzie (1993-1994), who doesn't seem interested in telling his own story.
McKenzie served part of his Thargship with Burton* still technically in charge, which muddies the waters about whether Tharg Alan was commissioning scripts from Hack Alan, or whether Burton Tharg was making those decisions. Another interesting thing to ask!
* Who was splitting his time between 2000ad and the launch of Sonic The Comic
It will certainly be very welcome to gave an alternative perspective shared to address the dominant Millsian history. Something to add to the squobbles. Looking forward to this seeing light of day.
Quote from: Frank on 11 September, 2016, 12:20:27 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 11 September, 2016, 05:54:36 AM
The third Tharg to write a book covering the history of 2000AD - how many more to come, I wonder?
Probably a good time to point out that the book Burton's writing is not (as yet) anything to do with Rebellion.
I did wonder who the publisher was going to be, after Thrill-Power Overload and The Mighty One...
QuoteBurton sees the book as challenging the dominant narrative of the comic's decline then resurrection, so I expect it will double as a biography/apology for his protege, Alan McKenzie (1993-1994), who doesn't seem interested in telling his own story.
McKenzie served part of his Thargship with Burton* still technically in charge, which muddies the waters about whether Tharg Alan was commissioning scripts from Hack Alan, or whether Burton Tharg was making those decisions. Another interesting thing to ask!
What I'd like to know is what rate did McKenzie get paid for Summer Magic - i.e. was it the standard work-for-hire rate, or was it less than that (which would lend credence to his claim that he retains copyright). Though it seems dodgy that McKenzie appears to have given himself more favourable terms than he did other creators... Somewhere in there there might be a question, though it might be more for McKenzie than Burton?
What did he think of Robocop?
And did he engage directly with any producers trying to get a Dredd film off the ground in the 80's?
Quote from: Dandontdare on 11 September, 2016, 12:10:45 AM
Have you read Steve MacManus' The Mighty One? Thoughts?
am reading it now, only got to the launch of action and the move to new offices, already loving it, it is a great, in depth read so far of comic publishing in the 70's.
for the interview, I will keep going if you wan to use them as questions be my guest
Juudge Dredd The Megazine launch, how involved you you, was it a big risk or a no brainer?
The annuals ended in 92 and the year books began, which I thought ware very cool, nice big albums on quality paper that looks lovely to this day, was it a way to appealing to the aging readership or ware there other reasons behind the change of format?
the rogue trooper Annual came out of the blue in 91 was Richard involved, did it do well?
Quote from: james newell on 11 September, 2016, 01:28:25 PM
for the interview, I will keep going if you wan to use them as questions be my guest
Judge Dredd The Megazine launch, how involved you you, was it a big risk or a no brainer?
The Meg wasn't the first attempt to get a Dreddworld spin-off off the ground - Bad Company and Anderson Psi Division were both strips which were originally going to be published in a different title.
QuoteThe annuals ended in 92 and the year books began, which I thought ware very cool, nice big albums on quality paper that looks lovely to this day, was it a way to appealing to the aging readership or ware there other reasons behind the change of format?
Nice format, shame about the content!
Quotethe rogue trooper Annual came out of the blue in 91 was Richard involved, did it do well?
Pre-empting the answer, I'm guessing if it had done well there'd have been a 1992 annual. Saying that, we did get a summer special a few years down the line.
Sauchie/Butch/Frank asked me for a few Sonic-related questions to go into the mix:
STC acted very much like a bridge for me, between the outright kid's comics I had been reading, and the more grown-up fare like Marvel and 2000AD. Was this a deliberate intention or just a happy accident?
Mike McMahon, probably to the bafflement of die-hard Dredd fans, regularly cites Decap Attack as among his favourite ever stripwork. In retrospect he probably wasn't the obvious choice for a bizarre little horror sitcom, but it worked brilliantly. Whose idea was it to give him the gig?
Nigel Kitching and Richard Elson quickly established themselves as the Wagner and Ezquerra of STC. Did it help the comic to have such a strong creative vision driving it?
How did 2000AD, with its original creations, compare with working on licenced properties on Sonic?
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 11 September, 2016, 03:38:55 PM
Mike McMahon, probably to the bafflement of die-hard Dredd fans, regularly cites Decap Attack as among his favourite ever stripwork.
That's because he dislikes all his best work! Artists...
Quote from: Dash Decent on 11 September, 2016, 12:05:46 AM
Make sure you don't ask him about his marriages to Elizabeth Taylor.
:lol: That tickled me.
...
what are you (Richard Burton) most proud of that you brought to 2000ad and is this still apart of what 2000ad is toady?
how would you (Richard Burton) have handled the 2000ad name when you hit the year 2000 if you ware still editor?
What did you (Richard Burton) work on after leaving 2000ad, what is he up to now, working, retired?
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 11 September, 2016, 03:38:55 PM
Mike McMahon, probably to the bafflement of die-hard Dredd fans, regularly cites Decap Attack as among his favourite ever stripwork. In retrospect he probably wasn't the obvious choice for a bizarre little horror sitcom, but it worked brilliantly. Whose idea was it to give him the gig?
I knew you'd come up with the goods, Jim Lad. Your affection and enthusiasm for the material will give the interview a dimension it would otherwise have lacked.
Speaking of which, Owen Watts of Somerset writes to propose the fascinating (and entertaining) idea that Sonic's 100th issue special may have inspired Dredd's
Trifecta crossover.
Bullet To Level Four!
Quote from: Dash Decent on 11 September, 2016, 12:05:46 AM
Make sure you don't ask him about his marriages to Elizabeth Taylor.
Don't be silly, he's not
that Richard Burton. But do ask him what drove him to seek the source of the Nile.
Quote from: Tordelback on 12 September, 2016, 02:18:02 AM
Quote from: Dash Decent on 11 September, 2016, 12:05:46 AM
Make sure you don't ask him about his marriages to Elizabeth Taylor.
Don't be silly, he's not that Richard Burton. But do ask him what drove him to seek the source of the Nile.
I loved his version of One Thousand and One Nights :-)
I've jsut read in 'The Mighty One' that Burton was one of the founders of the Eagle Awards, and presumably helped vote 2000AD in as the original winner. Was he a superfan when he joined the comic, and did that affect how he approached the job?
Or was he more of a fan of US superhero comics, and saw 2000AD as a different kind of job?
Has he kept up with 2000AD since leaving, and does he like any of the newer series that we've had?
Quote from: sheridan on 12 September, 2016, 02:42:11 AM
Quote from: Tordelback on 12 September, 2016, 02:18:02 AM
Quote from: Dash Decent on 11 September, 2016, 12:05:46 AM
Make sure you don't ask him about his marriages to Elizabeth Taylor.
Don't be silly, he's not that Richard Burton. But do ask him what drove him to seek the source of the Nile.
I loved his version of One Thousand and One Nights :-)
It's good that Tharg's seen sense and made sure the current human assisting on editorial duties doesn't have any other confusing namesakes. And it's even better now he's stopped making Doctor Who and turned all his attention to the prog.
Quote from: Dash Decent on 12 September, 2016, 01:44:04 PM
It's good that Tharg's seen sense and made sure the current human assisting on editorial duties doesn't have any other confusing namesakes
Kelvin Gosnell is Brad Pitt's real name. Excellent stuff from the prolific
James Newell and my board man-crush,
Alex F. Burt's journey from fan to Tharg is one that interests me too.
The previous generation of comic legends -
Wagner, Mills, Grant, and MacManus - all have the same origin story: heard there was a job going at a publisher, then just sort of fell assbackwards into the comic industry without ever specifically wanting to do that for a living.
Burton's story reads much more like the bio of everyone at Marvel and DC today: the nerdy kid at school who had every issue of
Banana Squad committed to memory and always dreamed of following in the footsteps of Stan Liefeld or Junior Romita Sr.
The UK/US comics thing is fascinating too. Presumably Burton had enough knowledge of UK comics to advise Morrison he was able to use Robot Archie in
Zenith Phase III because IPC owned the character, but
not enough knowledge to know that they didn't and he couldn't.
Burton was involved with fandom in the UK for years before joining IPC producing (The Excellent) Comic Media News. When he started in IPC he replaced Nick Landau, whom he knew from the early Comic Media News.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WZiHzf8zhS4/VN6dFzIH3BI/AAAAAAAATWg/eI4iHbwvrZE/s1600/CMN33.jpg)
No question comes to mind at the moment, but just sticking my oar in to say that I interviewed Burt in the Nerve Centre when I was a student.
I can't remember much of the interview. What lodged in my mind is that on the wall behind Burt was the original (or a print) of a brilliant piece of Brett Ewins cover art. I thought it was a prog cover. Months later it turned out to be the cover of the 1989 2000AD annual.
Quote from: SuperSurfer on 12 September, 2016, 11:49:25 PM
No question comes to mind at the moment, but just sticking my oar in to say that I interviewed Burt in the Nerve Centre when I was a student.
I can't remember much of the interview. What lodged in my mind is that on the wall behind Burt was the original (or a print) of a brilliant piece of Brett Ewins cover art. I thought it was a prog cover. Months later it turned out to be the cover of the 1989 2000AD annual.
This one?
(http://thumbs1.picclick.com/d/l400/pict/131623711872_/2000-Ad-British-Annual-1989-Fleetway-Ipc-Magazines.jpg)
Nice fanzine cover - nice to see that 2000AD was already making a pop cultural impact in its first year!
.
Your manners are a credit to the way your mammies and daddies raised you, but I thought one or two folk might have wanted to ask the man who was in charge at the exact moment everything went wrong why things went wrong.
Normally all you have to do is mention the nineties and boarders are lining up to offer their opinion on why the comic was rubbish and what the worst strips were. Hopefully, this interview will serve as the missing chapter of Thrillpower Overload.
Well, now that you mention it, I'd be curious to get Burton's response to Garth Ennis's assertion that he was basically left alone on all his Dredd work. "The editorial team wasn't up to it" I think is how Ennis phrased it.
Did Burton just believe that Ennis's work was fit to print as was, or did he not have time to have a go at editing it? Or did he, in fact, provide some edits that Ennis has forgotten about?
NB, although it was clearly not as good as Wagner/Grant Dredd, Ennis's run isn't terrible by any means. Sillier in tone, yes, and with far less to say about the real world, but perfectly enjoyable.
Quote from: AlexF on 14 September, 2016, 09:27:26 AM
Did Burton just believe that Ennis's work was fit to print as was, or did he not have time to have a go at editing it? Or did he, in fact, provide some edits that Ennis has forgotten about?
Ennis went on to claim that, on the occasions when the editorial team
did sub something he'd written, it was usually for the worst.
Difficult to know how much of that is authorial preciousness or excuse making, but then Ennis does seem pretty self effacing about his skills and the quality of the work.
Thanks for the feedback,
Alex and everyone else - getting other perspectives really does make you think in ways you never would have done in isolation. I'm sure the interview will be better for that.
Quote from: Frank on 14 September, 2016, 01:24:19 PM
Difficult to know how much of that is authorial preciousness or excuse making, but then Ennis does seem pretty self effacing about his skills and the quality of the work.
Hmm. We
are talking about the writer who told Andy Diggle not to alter so much as a single comma in the script for Helter Skelter...
Something I've often wondered - when he saw how much Mills and Bisley had stepped up the nudity and violence content for The Horned God, did he hesitate to publish it?
Quote from: Frank on 09 September, 2016, 09:30:33 PM
This is your chance to ask the Tharg who doesn't do interviews anything you want to know about his time on the Galaxy's Greatest, first as sub-editor (1980-1984), and again as editor (1987-1993). They were the best of times, they were the worst of times.
Burton poached schoolboy Steve Dillon from Marvel UK and coached Morrison through all 4 phases of Zenith, so whether your question is a nerdish 'whose idea were the Horned God intro pages?' or a controversial 'what on Earth happened to 2000ad in the 90s?', there's plenty to ask him about.
I'll let y'all know the deadline for questions, and I'll post a link to the ECBT site when the podcast goes up online.
An interview so great it had to be split in two.
Your incisive queries are addressed in episode two, so part one is an entertaining overview of Burton's progress from fan press to his current gig writing about Marvel for the Eaglemoss partworks.
Along the way, Robin Smith almost drives Burt out of comics, Kev O'Neill screams that he'll never work for
2000ad again, Alan Moore learns he wasn't cut out for fame,
IPC try to buy DC comics (!), Hilary Robinson walks off with episodes of her strips that will never be seen, and we learn who killed Johnny Alpha
(the reason given may not ring true ...) :
ECBT2000ad site (https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2016/11/03/ecbt2000ad-ep283/)
Libsyn (http://ecbt2000ad.libsyn.com/ecbt2000ad-ep283)
(click on mp3 link to listen direct)PlayerFM (https://player.fm/series/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/ecbt2000ad-ep283)
iTunes (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/id406982833?mt=2)
(episode 283)
Could you ask him -
1) How do you edit talent that got as big as Grant Morrison/John Wagner/Pat Mills. At that point do you just accept their scripts?
2) What would have improved 90s 2000ad the most in retrospect - stopping Bisley Clones or sorting out creator rights?
3) Why did so many staple 2000ad characters emerge and stick in his first tenure?
Why did so few enduring characters emerge in his second go at editor. What had changed the most? (Age of readership? UK talent drain?)
I'm not sure if Stephen and Richard have already completed the second part of their conversation, but I'll make sure they see those questions.
While we're asking questions, how many of us know Richard Burton wrote the bridge story that explained how old Dan Dare turned into new Dan Dare, or where that story appeared? I do, but only because I listened to the podcast.
Who killed John Alpha?
Why an' what's the reason for?
"Not I, " says the art maestro,
"They asked me but I just said "no"
I could've done it for that's for sure
But I was drawing Third World War,
And the readers would've booed, I'm sure,
At me killing him off without John.
It's too bad they did him in,
But If I didnt draw it did it happen?
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."
Who killed John Alpha,
Why an' what's the reason for?
"Not me, " says that Alan Grant,
at least not without John's consent.
"It's too bad he died that night
But we just like to see a fight.
We didn't mean for him t' meet his fate,
We just wanted to keep him safe,
There ain't nothing wrong in that.
I read Mark Millar so made a call.
You know you can't blame me at all."
Who killed John Alpha,
Why an' what's the reason for?
"Not me," says the editor
Puffing on a big cigar
"It's hard to say, it's hard to tell
I just thought that he wasn't well
It's too bad for his fans he's dead
But if they liked his strip, they should've said
It wasn't me that made him fall
No, you can't blame me at all"
Lovely stuff, Leigh. Now imagining a mutie minstrel with a four-legged frame extending from his hands...
Can you whistle it, so I can get the tune?
I like that this was obviously the first time Richard had heard the idea that Grant killed Alpha because he and Wagner were leaving the comic and didn't want anyone else playing with the characters ... despite Wagner and Grant saying that was the case for years.
.
THE 2 HOUR THARG INTERVIEW YOU'VE ALWAYS WANTED!
Flint outdoes himself, giving Tharg the deepest probing he's received since the Men In Black bent him over and discovered a wealth of Mike Hadley PARAsites artwork they were then forced to print.
This is Richard Burton's challenge to the version of the early nineties presented in David Bishop's Thrillpower Overload - mention of Bishop produces the same reaction in Burton as saying The Bandit's name to Sheriff Buford T Justice.
Those drawers full of unused artwork (see above) are described as 'a treasure trove', Fleisher's Harlem Heroes reboot is justified, and we learn which artist Alan Grant insisted Burton employ against his will (forcing Wagner to play shop steward):
playerFM (https://player.fm/series/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/ecbt2000ad-ep285)
ECBT2000ad (https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2016/11/12/ecbt2000ad-ep285/)
iTunes (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/id406982833?mt=2) (episode 285)
Libsyn (http://ecbt2000ad.libsyn.com/ecbt2000ad-ep285) (click on the mp3 link)
Enjoyed that, thank you.
I've only just started part 2 but part 1 was a cracker! Thanks for bringing this to my attention as I wouldn't have stumbled across it otherwise. Burton the man really doesn't come across like Burt-1 the droid, does he?
That said, I'm still not persuaded that he has upended the existing narrative that the Burton/McKenzie years saw a downhill slide which only turned uphill once Biship/Diggle were on the scene. Although I think one can only lay so much credit/blame to any editor. I reckon a certain amount of it is down to personal taste - Burton just liked different kinds of stories to Bishop.
I am now disabused of some notions I may have had that Bishop was uniquely interested in identifying and developing new creators; clearly Burton was equally on the lookout.
When are interviews with Alan McKenzie and John Tomlinson going to come?? The latter in particular straddles both eras and I'd love to hear how he compares the two.
Never would have said I was unique in identifying and developing new creators! Steve MacManus asked me to do that for the Megazine so we wouldn't be nicking creators from 2000AD to fill our pages. The weekly has always brought on new talent, especially once the title become a stepping stone to US comics [or computer games or film work, in the case of artists]. Richard and Alan found and nurtured plenty of great new talents in their time at the Command Module, IMHO.
Quote from: AlexF on 14 November, 2016, 12:19:54 PM
I'm still not persuaded that he has upended the existing narrative that the Burton/McKenzie years saw a downhill slide
Good point, Alex. I think Flint has the right idea; asking the questions and letting listeners evaluate the responses for themselves.
Burton's stated purpose in giving these exhaustive interviews was to challenge the narrative of events presented in
Thrillpower Overload and the
Future Shock documentary. Despite, as soon becomes apparent, having never read/watched either ...
[1]... that means softball questions inviting him to refute said narrative are mostly fumbled. Instead, Burton comes across as every inch the charming and erudite man Alan Grant describes (http://www.2000adreview.co.uk/features/interviews/2005/grant/grant1.shtml), but someone who understands/remembers things in generalities rather than specifics.
One minute, running the few completed episodes of a larger series until they run out then swapping them for another strip is a great way to mix up quality material (01:52:41), just a few minutes later it's the worst thing you can do (01:55:20).
US comics are rubbish because they're still using the same old characters (01:46:55), but rebooting Harlem Heroes was okay because younger readers wouldn't remember the original series (01:41:55). None of that's intended as a slight towards the affable Burton; I'm just not sure he ever devoted the same amount of time and anguish to these matters as some of us here.
Andy Diggle quotes Burton's advice to him as
'remember, it's just a comic (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comics.2000ad/gY4Dfc6d3i8%5B1-25%5D)'. That's probably fair enough; being Tharg was one of dozens of jobs Burton did in more than forty years. That means he's delightfully vague about some things, specifically the number of copies the comic was selling (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comics.2000ad/gY4Dfc6d3i8%5B1-25%5D) during his/McKenzie's tenure.
[1] To be fair, his reasons are understandable. He looked at the dominant voices in each project - the editor who replaced him and 2000ad's most obstreperous creator - and decided he was never going to get a fair shake.
It was Mick Austin who did the porn swipe cover wasnt it? I know he is the first to admit to faulty memory n the interviews, but hey ho!
It is fascinating listening - as others have said, it hasnt challenged the overall narrative as I see it, mostly because my personal narrative is of a massive decline in standards during that period - It is a real pity that Burt and MacKenzie werent more involved in the other "official" histories, and from that one point, they are both to my mind always going to be somewhat skewed. Doesnt mean they are necessarily wrong, but including their persepctives would have allowed a more rounded account. I would love to see Burton/MacKenzie sit down and fact check their own version (Burts wonky memory shows up more than once in interviews so far).
i always thought it was Garth Ennis who got the "Only a Fucking comic" pep talk, though maybe that was a Burt mantra! Could they have done anything to stem the tide? Hard to say - If someone halved your household budget (the talent brain drain) and doubled your bills (publish the weekly, a fortnightly and Crisis etc), could you keep a roof over your head?
Quote from: Leigh S on 14 November, 2016, 07:45:53 PM
It was Mick Austin who did the porn swipe cover wasnt it?
Yep
(DANGER: boobs) (https://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=39512.msg792894#msg792894). To be fair, Burton has a point (00:56:15).
As he says, David Roach is a
fantastic fine artist, but his beautiful strip work could be a little stiff in terms of storytelling. Burt's charge of slowness leading to scheduling difficulties rings true; Engram (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=thrill&page=profiles&Comic=2000AD&choice=ANDERSON) was split into two parts, which ran almost a year apart.
Individuals and events seem to retain a firmer hold on Burt's memory circuits than the stories he published (00:32:00). The best example of that is the point where it becomes clear that he doesn't really remember what
The Dead Man was (01:18:26).
The prestige of the Dredd/Batman deal means more to Burt than specific stories, which is fair enough. When the ex-Thargs meet up for the monthly dinners Burton describes, I'm sure they reminisce about the politics of the job*, rather than how great
Revolution (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=531) was.
Burton's main interest was getting the comic out each week and keeping out of trouble with management (00:47:15), trusting that the readers would have forgotten the odd rough
(Mark Millar) episode by next week (00:36:00). Like anyone else doing a job of work:
LINK TO THE INTERVIEW (https://player.fm/series/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/ecbt2000ad-ep285) (since the page changed)* and thus that's what remains fresher in the memory
The irony is that Burton himself doesn't get a kicking at all in either TPO or Future Shock!. But perhaps by not being present in either, his overall contributions to the Prog, both good and bad, are inherently overlooked. The interviews are both great but frustratingly vague on details. Burton seems reluctant to take credit for any specific stories that ran while he was Tharg, and there were some all-time greats in there. Did he suggest giving Chopper a solo slot, for example, or was that all Wagner's idea and he simply agreed to run it? But of course from his popint of view it was a very long time ago, and I doubt he ever re-read Progs 400-900 as obsessively as I did in the 90s...
It's interesting to note that three of the artists in particular that he championed early on, Steve Dillon, Alan Davis and Barry Kitson, have all gone on to be US comics superstars. Given that Burton grew up as a fan of superhero comics it makes sense he'd have an especially good eye for that style of art.
Oh, and the comment about Bishop being an especial champion of new talent is only something that's ever existed in my head! A moment's thought makes it clear that, in fact, all editors of weekly comics have to do this to keep the damn thing ticking. One could argue, based mostly on Megazine Volume 2, that Bishop was either more forgiving or less discerning in this area. Or perhaps simply more desperate!
On the stockpiling of work in left in the drawer, I feel Burton got the wrong end of the stick. The complaint wasn't that work had been stockpiled, rather that what happened to have been left at the time of the handover was not good quality stuff. Of course, Burton himself was long gone (onto Sonic the Comic) at the time Bishop took over on 2000AD, so that's perhaps more of a charge aimed at McKenzie/Tomlinson. and of course Steve MacManus, who was still in charge at the time, even if fairly hands off.
Quote from: AlexF on 15 November, 2016, 02:45:56 PM
On the stockpiling of work in left in the drawer, I feel Burton got the wrong end of the stick. The complaint wasn't that work had been stockpiled, rather that what happened to have been left at the time of the handover was not good quality stuff.
No... I was very much under the impression that the complaint was that there was a
lot of inventory material
and that most of it wasn't very good.
Yet to listen, but the impression of a laid-back Tharg being painted here is one I like :) Good on him.
I finished the second one last night at work and found them very enjoyable.
Loads of interesting stuff talked about and as said, great to see another side of things, from the actual horses mouth.
Quote from: AlexF on 15 November, 2016, 02:45:56 PM
On the stockpiling of work in left in the drawer, I feel Burton got the wrong end of the stick. The complaint wasn't that work had been stockpiled, rather that what happened to have been left at the time of the handover was not good quality stuff. Of course, Burton himself was long gone (onto Sonic the Comic) at the time Bishop took over on 2000AD, so that's perhaps more of a charge aimed at McKenzie/Tomlinson
I was screaming at my phone in frustration, but you can't play Paxman when someone's doing you a favour by agreeing to a chat.
Flint
does put Bishop's charge to Burton -
that the material was so bad he asked management if he could bin it (01:58:20 (https://player.fm/series/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/ecbt2000ad-ep285)) - but Burton doesn't really respond
(having earlier implied Bishop just didn't understand how to exploit this 'legacy'). At least he walks back his initial description of
Time Flies 2 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=thrill&page=profiles&choice=TRACEB) and
Goodnight Kiss (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=948) as
'a treasure trove'!
I'm not sure Burt can be absolved of responsibility for the unused inventory. Strips like
PARAsites (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=thrill&page=profiles&choice=WIREHEAD)
(a renamed Wireheads) and Fleisher
Harlem Heroes (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=thrill&page=profiles&Comic=2000AD&choice=harlem) are Burton era strips
[1] that only reappeared in the first 12 months of Bishop's Thargship - 3 and 5 years after their last appearances, respectively. They're obviously
'legacy' material
[2].
I suppose the reason Burton doesn't engage with the charge those strips were weak is that he genuinely doesn't think they were. Again, that's partly a result of the fact that he doesn't seem to have devoted as much mental energy as us to these strips
(and the direction of the comic) in the last quarter of a century ...
or at the time.
* Sonic The Comic launched in May 1993, so Burt would still have been advising the Mighty One when second series of both were commissioned. Burton seems to have continued some kind of supervisory role during the early era of McKenzie/Tomlinson too
** Heroes in particular was obviously a Burton commission that was only finished in 1995, since colourist Siku had just recently started working for 2000ad at that point, while penciler Hopgood hadn't worked for Tharg since 1990.
Quote from: AlexF on 15 November, 2016, 02:45:56 PM
The irony is that Burton himself doesn't get a kicking at all in either TPO or Future Shock!. But perhaps by not being present in either, his overall contributions to the Prog, both good and bad, are inherently overlooked.
I was a bit confused about that as well, particularly in the case of TPO. Maybe Burton and McKenzie should read the book before dismissing it?
Finally got to the end of the 2nd interview only to learn there's going to be a third! I'm enjoying the hell out of this, although I do feel for poor Flint having to maintain an air of being super-nice to Burton even as he misremembers things. Again, no slight on Burton as it'd be like me trying to remember what essays I wrote for which teacher in my GCSE years, and whether or not they were actually any good (I'm sure I thought they were at the time!) But he should surely own up to some of the blame for the travesty of the RoboHunter reboot - and then some credit for swapping out Mark Millar for Peter Hogan.
As a younger reading during Burton's tenure, I do in fact applaud his policy of deliberately putting in strips for under 12s (Junker, Night/Beyond/Below Zero etc) to counterbalance the more grown up Shamballas and Hewligan's haircuts, which I chose not to read at the time as I couldn't make sense of them at all.
Quote from: CalHab on 17 November, 2016, 10:44:18 AM
Quote from: AlexF on 17 November, 2016, 11:25:52 AM
(Burton) should surely own up to some of the blame for the travesty of the RoboHunter reboot ... I applaud his policy of deliberately putting in strips for under 12s (Junker, Night/Beyond/Below Zero etc) to counterbalance the more grown up Shamballas and Hewligan's haircuts
Maybe Burton and McKenzie should read (Thrillpower Overload) before dismissing it?
To be fair, Burton is only responding to questions put to him by readers ... who tell him their cheeky enquiries were inspired by something they read in
Thrillpower Overload*.
The all-ages thing is interesting; the idea that he was bringing on new, young readers doesn't really square with the drop in readers from 100,000 to 50,000 (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comics.2000ad/gY4Dfc6d3i8%5B1-25%5D) over the 8 years of Burton/McKenzie or his acknowledgement that kids stopped reading comics.
These interviews have allowed me to make peace with the Burton era - he's a lovely man who had a series of lovely jobs at a lovely time to work in publishing, commissioning a lot of work from lovely people**. That lots of that work
wasn't very good doesn't seem to trouble his memories, and I feel rotten for puncturing his bubble
even a little.
* I believe this is genuinely the first suggestion Burton's heard that his time as Tharg was anything other than an unqualified success. Vague reference to Garth Ennis's criticism of Burton and McKenzie was met with a puzzled request for evidence of these sentiments (http://viciousimagery.blogspot.co.uk/2007/02/28-days-of-2000-ad-171-ennis-talks-pt.html) ... followed by stunned silence.
** Some of whom went on to do much better work than the stuff he got out of them
just want to say thanks to all involved for bringing us these interviews, some really fascinating stuff in them. cheers.
I'm guessing it's too late to get any more questions put to Mr Burton, but one thing I wonder is how much input Steve MacManus had over 2000AD at the time. I imagine he left Burton largely alone while he was off prepping Crisis, Revolver and The Megazine, but would Burton have shown him pages / plans for any given Prog for approval or anything like that? The only tidbit I've heard is the story about MacManus telling then-new Tharg John Tomlinson (or was it McKenzie?) to do whatever it took to lure John Wagner back onto writing Dredd for the weekly again.
Finally got through both parts and really enjoyed it. Thanks to everyone involved.
I'm a bit confused about why you would ask for input from a forum and then describe its users as "a bunch of fucking assholes", but maybe that's how podcasting works.
Quote from: CalHab on 22 November, 2016, 05:49:21 PM
I'm a bit confused about why you would ask for input from a forum and then describe its users as "a bunch of fucking assholes", but maybe that's how podcasting works.
Ahh... the wit and charm we've come to associate with Mr Reid. He could interview Alan Moore, Grant Morrison and John Wagner in the same podcast and I still wouldn't listen to it.
Quote from: CalHab on 22 November, 2016, 05:49:21 PM
I'm a bit confused about why you would ask for input from a forum and then describe its users as "a bunch of fucking assholes"
From memory, Flint says something like he doesn't post here much because there are
too many assholes - not all of them. None of the ECBT crowd post here anymore because they don't get on with Rennie and Campbell.
As a consequence, they never miss an opportunity to put the boot into Rennie's strips. Listening to them review the early episodes of
Hunted was quite funny, because they clearly quite enjoyed it but struggled to find ways to say otherwise.
Quote from: Frank on 22 November, 2016, 06:38:07 PM
From memory, Flint says something like he doesn't post here much because there are too many assholes - not all of them. None of the ECBT crowd post here anymore because they don't get on with Rennie and Campbell.
I thought he was fairly clear about how he views everyone on this forum. It was a rather unnecessary diversion.
Quote from: AlexF on 19 November, 2016, 11:22:35 AM
I'm guessing it's too late to get any more questions put to Mr Burton, but one thing I wonder is how much input Steve MacManus had over 2000AD at the time ... I've heard is the story about MacManus telling then-new Tharg John Tomlinson (or was it McKenzie?) to do whatever it took to lure John Wagner back onto writing Dredd for the weekly again.
I think MacManus's title was Group Editor, which I assume meant he had oversight on the general direction of
2000ad but left the day to day to his editors. I understand the third instalment was recorded shortly after the second, but there are other interviews coming up that can probably address these matters.
I'll post requests for more questions and links to the interviews as they arise.
Thoroughly enjoyed part 1 of this interview, but I did a double-take at the start of part 2...
so British Annuals were always much better value than US Annuals?! Eh?
US Annuals had/have a price tag in line with increased page-count, whereas hardbacked British Annuals were always a rip-off :o
They bore no relation to the weekly cover prices and were a notorious cash cow...?
Quote from: Fungus on 22 November, 2016, 11:01:05 PM
US Annuals had/have a price tag in line with increased page-count, whereas hardbacked British Annuals were always a rip-off
I only ever bought one US annual, a Batman one written by Pete Milligan. I was devastated when I got to the end and realised there was no word search*
PART THREE of this epic encounter sees poor Richard Burton worry he's
never going to get away. 2000ad forum questions are finally answered and Richard shares his memories of being on the set of the 1995 Stallone movie at Shepperton.
The podcast opens with Flint bringing up Garth Ennis (http://viciousimagery.blogspot.co.uk/2007/02/28-days-of-2000-ad-171-ennis-talks-pt.html?m=1) and Alan Grant (http://web.archive.org/web/20140716105539/http://www.2000adreview.co.uk/features/interviews/2005/grant/grant7.shtml)'s scathing criticisms of Burton, which - to Burton's credit - he responds to, even though he doesn't need to. It's the kind of topic that would be weeded out at the negotiation stage of most interviews.
I actually found the wounded quality in Burton's voice quite touching. Oh, and Flint repeats Part Two's 'not all 2000ad forum members are assholes' clarification, just for Cal Hab's benefit:
PLAYERFM (https://player.fm/series/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/ecbt2000ad-ep287)
iTUNES (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/id406982833?mt=2)
LIBSYN (http://ecbt2000ad.libsyn.com/ecbt2000ad-ep287)
ECBT20000AD (https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2016/11/22/ecbt2000ad-ep287/)
* Especially since a Pete Milligan word search would have been the best thing ever
Quote from: Frank on 23 November, 2016, 07:32:34 AM
Oh, and Flint repeats Part Two's 'not all 2000ad forum members are assholes' clarification, just for Cal Hab's benefit:
Sometimes I wish I could block out all the stupid bloody things those boys say long enough to listen to the good stuff they do, but I never seem to be able to manage it.
Quote from: Frank on 23 November, 2016, 07:32:34 AM
Oh, and Flint repeats Part Two's 'not all 2000ad forum members are assholes' clarification, just for Cal Hab's benefit:
I don't think he's responding to me. There was an earlier poster who asked for it to be removed and who now, ironically, appears to have had their own post removed.
For the record, I wasn't suggesting the comments should be taken out of the interview. I just think they're a bit daft.
In any case I'm looking forward to enjoying the third part of the interview. It's been interesting listening so far.
Quote from: Frank on 23 November, 2016, 07:32:34 AM
PART THREE of this epic encounter sees Richard share his memories of being on the set of the 1995 Stallone movie at Shepperton.
PLAYERFM (https://player.fm/series/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/ecbt2000ad-ep287)
iTUNES (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/id406982833?mt=2)
LIBSYN (http://ecbt2000ad.libsyn.com/ecbt2000ad-ep287)
ECBT20000AD (https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2016/11/22/ecbt2000ad-ep287/)
I undersold this bit. Learn which future movie stud producers told Burton they wanted to cast, back in 1988:
(http://i.imgur.com/sUxjdGE.png?1)(http://i.imgur.com/nVMBvCl.png?1)(http://i.imgur.com/tYE7gmi.png?2)
Quote from: Frank on 24 November, 2016, 02:55:38 PM
Quote from: Frank on 23 November, 2016, 07:32:34 AM
PART THREE of this epic encounter sees Richard share his memories of being on the set of the 1995 Stallone movie at Shepperton.
PLAYERFM (https://player.fm/series/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/ecbt2000ad-ep287)
iTUNES (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/everything-comes-back-to-2000ad/id406982833?mt=2)
LIBSYN (http://ecbt2000ad.libsyn.com/ecbt2000ad-ep287)
ECBT20000AD (https://2000ad.wordpress.com/2016/11/22/ecbt2000ad-ep287/)
I undersold this bit. Learn which future movie stud producers told Burton they wanted to cast, back in 1988:
(http://i.imgur.com/sUxjdGE.png?1)(http://i.imgur.com/nVMBvCl.png?1)(http://i.imgur.com/tYE7gmi.png?2)
That was a bit of a revelation alright. What might have been...
Very pleased to have a question answered that I've been wondering about for years (obviously not really the big deal among the editorial staff I thought it might have been). Also glad to hear Flint is a lot more comfortable using my username these days (though not sure where he got the 'de' bit).
I haven't had much love for ECBT in recent times, for reasons others have put far more eloquently than I could, but this was a great listen.
I used to quite enjoy the podcast when it was Richard, Iz and Stacey, but I drifted off a long time back. Tried to get back on board, but listening to Flint, our Burdis and some American guy talk for 30 minutes on why Trump is great the other week, which didnt improve much once matters turned vaguely towards the prog in hand kind of broke me from returning to a regular listener.
That said, hats off for getting this scoop, even if Flint would be better served to let his guests do the talking rather than talking (swapping?) sides based on who is being interviewed - though maybe thats a good strategy to get the guest to lower their guard - I dunno, but I find slating either creators or readers a bit counter productive. I am sure there are assholes in both camps, but one thing the internet teaches you pretty quickly is playing the asshole name game tends to throw your name into the hat, even if you think you are (and even if sometimes you actually are) fighting the good fight.
Burton comes across as very likeable, but I still dont feel the narrative of decline during hi time has been challenged much by this - to take the Stront example - "we can fix Stront by killing off Alpha" feels a bit Brexity in offering a simple and pretty cliff edge solution to a complex problem. "So he is dead, now what?" doesnt seem to have been considered at all
For my money, I always wondered if a MacNeil pencils /Harrison inks might have produced something interesting for Stront, in the Dillon/Walker style, though I suspect neither artist would ahve been particularly happy with that compromise.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 24 November, 2016, 09:00:43 PM
Very pleased to have a question answered that I've been wondering about for years (obviously not really the big deal among the editorial staff I thought it might have been)
Cheers, Jayzus.
I'm not sure Richard's answer
(about the level of nudity and violence in Horned God being fine because it was a strip for older readers) squares with his idea that his
2000ad was an all-ages comic, which could hook in the eights year olds with
Dead Meat and introduce them to more sophisticated material as they aged.
If the eight year olds see The Lorentian in
Chronos Carnival, they see Slough Feg's floppy old cock too*.
The podcast ends with Richard saying he'll be happy to do a follow-up interview answering any questions arising from these chats, but I should probably give him a refresher course in the actual strips, so he can discuss them in more detail.
I'll pass on Alex's question (above) and if listening to the podcasts provokes any inquiries from others feel free to post them here.
* I wouldn't lose any sleep over that, but obviously some parents would
Thank you to all involved, I enjoyed that.
Really enjoyed listening to this. I worked for Mr Burton briefly on the Sonic mag, and he's a lovely chap. ;)
I enjoy the ECBT podcast although Flint always sounds as if he is sitting in a different room to his microphone. I don't mind that it isn't solely about the prog and John and Steve are always entertaining.
The interview with Richard Burton has been okay so far. Sounds like a decent bloke although he was editor at the time the comic took a massive nose dive in terms of quality. I don't think this was solely down to the readers growing up as the interview suggests. I remained a comic reader (mainly US comics) long after I stopped reading 2000AD in the late 80's/early 90's.
Just listened to the first part. I haven't listened to any ECBT2000AD podcasts before. The interviewer doesn't introduce himself, so I have a question: who is he?
Stephen Reid, aka Flint. Used to post here as flintlockjaw. An Irish expat in the States who is in the animation business. That's all I know really
Quote from: Frank on 22 November, 2016, 06:38:07 PMNone of the ECBT crowd post here anymore because they don't get on with Rennie and Campbell.
Entirely understandable. Right pair of wankers them two.
QuoteAs a consequence, they never miss an opportunity to put the boot into Rennie's strips. Listening to them review the early episodes of Hunted was quite funny, because they clearly quite enjoyed it but struggled to find ways to say otherwise.
Couldn't find ways to say otherwise? What kind of comic fans
are they?
Hunted is quite clearly a lazy-arse piece of fanwank, desperately trying to link two separate strips into the same continuity. I mean so what if
Jaegir uses terms like 'Nort' and 'Souther' and 'Nu-Earth' and 'Blue'. Doesn't mean they're part of the same universe. Hey, Johnny Alpha's appeared in Judge Dredd three times now, and Middenface has been to Mega-City One in that Megazine strip with the over-rated art, but that doesn't mean they're all part of the same continuity. That's just too logical to make sense. Almost as ridiculous as
Savage,
Ro-Busters,
ABC Warriors and
Nemesis the Warlock all being part of the same setting just because the characters have all appeared in the same stories. And besides, the Norts in
Rogue Trooper are clearly space-Nazis while the Norts in
Jaegir have got this faux-Russian thing going on. See, totally fucking different. Couldn't find ways to say otherwise? Call themselves fans? Fucking amateurs I call them.
Oh, and by the way Jim, you had a chance yet to look into the problem of the missing speech bubble in
America: Fading of the Light?
Oh, and by the way Gordon, you got a couple of hours to look at this Judge Dredd script I've written? I'm having a bit of trouble with the action sequence. None of the characters will stand in the right places for me.
It's not as if Campbell and Rennie haven't got the time to help me out. Way I hear it, the two of them just sit in front of a computer screen all day long. Jim's busy masturbating over typefaces ("Dirty,
dirty Comic Sans! I'm gonna increase your point good, you cheap nasty FONT!"). As for Rennie, when he's not busy rewriting other people's characters (poor, gentle Pat Mills still weeps tears of blood over
Satanus Unchained) he sits there gloating over how Absalom will die of old age before the story can come to any kind of conclusion.
Coat-hangers,
The Marmalade Moose (that's copyright, Rennie, hands-off!)
Quote from: Tony Angelino on 25 November, 2016, 06:17:12 PM
(Burton) sounds like a decent bloke although he was editor at the time the comic took a massive nose dive in terms of quality. I don't think this was solely down to the readers growing up as the interview suggests.
I think it might have been Flint who suggested that. From memory, Burton says something like
it might have been a period when your favourite strips disappeared ... (ellipsis).
That's
sort of true: Burton's Thargship is noteable for the number of
indisputably great strips he ran, but they were mostly strips by the old guard and creators who were about to decamp to Vertigo/Toxic. The new stuff Burton commissioned is not fondly remembered*
This was the opportunity Burton wanted to address criticism of his tenure; because of his patchy recall of the strips he ran and the circulation figures during this period, I don't think he achieved that.
I'll see if we can get him up to speed, so he can get more specific in his follow up podcast(s). Any questions gratefully received.
* Except by Hawkmumbler (https://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=43933.msg937721#msg937721). It's worth pointing out Burton gave fantastic artists their break - like MacNeil, Weston, Coleby, Elson and Bagwell - but they were dominating the prog and working on big strips before they'd shaved the rough edges off their technique
Finally got around to part 1 today and for all the ups and downs of an interview by Flint; he does get a great deal stuff out of folks and that's to his credit, but jez if he'd just learnt to shut up at times he'd get so much more! Anyway for all those ups and downs very much looking forward to listening to the next 2. Great to have a different view on 2000ad's history besides the Millsian norm.
One thing I don't feel I can let slide however is the fact that he (Flint) rips people on the board for dissing Alan McKenzie. This I find very interesting given a few years ago I found myself in an online discussion with him (not here) defending Mr McKenzie from Mr Flints statement he was the worst writer in 2000ad's history. An opinion that seemed at least in part fuelled by his views of Alan McKenzie's time in editorial. Now it's possible he's changed his mind since, but he was quite passionate about it then!
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 November, 2016, 12:32:23 PM
One thing I don't feel I can let slide however is the fact that he (Flint) rips people on the board for dissing Alan McKenzie.
Gordon and I are both quite critical of McKenzie's time as editor, so of
course Flint is going to take the opposite position, even if that means a quick
volte face from a previous stance.
.
Thanks, Colin - I'm really more interested in what Burton has to say than personalities and grievances amongst fandom.
Stuff I'm going to ask Burton about next time will definitely include the change of writer credit on Judge Dredd from TB Grover on Attack Of The 50 ft Woman (492) to Wagner/Grant on Dead Ringer (493). It's difficult not to see that as prefiguring their impending split. Did anyone see that coming?
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15203186_365507433797621_16494963676741874_n.jpg?oh=8b4df09ec88dbc66eea9c8417dee2001&oe=58CF62A0%5Dhttps://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15203186_365507433797621_16494963676741874_n.jpg?oh=8b4df09ec88dbc66eea9c8417dee2001&oe=58CF62A0)
I enjoyed listening to the interviews and hope Mr Burton comes back for more at a later date.
Quote from: Tony Angelino on 27 November, 2016, 01:18:48 PM
I enjoyed listening to the interviews and hope Mr Burton comes back for more at a later date.
Cheers, Tony - they were talking about doing a follow up around the end of the year. Anyone with
any questions for Burton should feel free to post them here.
Quote from: Frank on 27 November, 2016, 01:23:34 PM
Anyone with any questions for Burton should feel free to post them here.
Actually, that's a bit prescriptive. Even if you just want to reminisce or debate the merits of the early nineties, feel free to post your thoughts here.
Recent discussion of Luke Kirby has made me realise that it and strips like Armoured Gideon, Brigand Doom, The Clown, and Bradley -
which I considered typical of the mediocrity that rushed to fill the Wagner/Grant shaped void in the nineties - were/are regarded more favourably by others.
Burton seems to think he was replacing quality with quality and keeping the wheels on the road - maybe he was right and I'm wrong.
Quote from: Frank on 27 November, 2016, 01:14:55 PM
.
Thanks, Colin - I'm really more interested in what Burton has to say than personalities and grievances amongst fandom.
Errr here maybe, but I think we both know elsewhere you're quite happy to... mind as you say maybe not for here and best to focus on the delights of hearing from Mr Burton.
I guess ultimately whatever else you want to say about the prog at the time, it kept its head high enough above water to escape culling. The cover of the Year 2000 prog by Bolland is a reminder of how many titles fell by the wayside over the years. Editorial must have been doing something right to achieve that, surely.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 27 November, 2016, 01:42:33 PM
Editorial must have been doing something right to achieve that, surely.
Which editorial? Tomlinson and then Bishop inherited, frankly, a mess. Cratering sales, drawers stuffed with sub-par scripts and piles of muddy painted art commissioned under Burton and McKenzie that senior management insisted be published, hampering any effort to reverse the calamitous fortunes of the title.
There was a period in the second half of the 90s when the question was not what 2000AD would be called in the year 2000 but, for anyone who knew much about the behind-the-scenes situation of the comic, whether it would get there
at all.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 27 November, 2016, 01:42:33 PM
I guess ultimately whatever else you want to say about the prog at the time, it kept its head high enough above water to escape culling. The cover of the Year 2000 prog by Bolland is a reminder of how many titles fell by the wayside over the years. Editorial must have been doing something right to achieve that, surely.
Circulation went from
100,000 in 1987 to
50,000 in 1995, to
25,000 in 2000*.
None of us are able to say whether that was down to existing readers dropping the comic because it wasn't as good anymore, new younger readers not coming in to repace those who age out in the way they once did, or just the general trend for kids to stop reading comics.
As you point out, it's not as if
Eagle and
Warlord are still dominating WH Smith's shelves.
* 20,000 of those sales were lost due to a change of distributor (https://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=42838.msg914306#msg914306)
Quote from: Frank on 27 November, 2016, 02:00:23 PM
20,000 of those sales were lost due to a change of distributor
At least 20,000 of those were due to the change of distributor. McKenzie said that they lost 20,000 within a very few weeks of the change being imposed on them.
I've long argued that the catastrophic crash in 2000AD sales at this time was (forgive me) something of a double-whammy: reduced availability due to the distributor change, coupled with the comic
just not being very good.I think either of those things would have been bad for the comic, but in combination were disastrous. Almost overnight, 2000AD disappeared completely from the four or five newsagents on the route between my house at the time and university. The comic hadn't been much cop for some time, but as long as I could pick up a copy on a Saturday morning when I nipped out for a pint of milk and 20 B&H, it remained a habit.
Once I was looking at a trip into London to get one from FP or a big WH Smith branch...? Well, the comic just wasn't good enough for me to contemplate doing that. Obviously, I could have picked up multiple issues whenever I
did go to FP, but once you break that weekly buying habit...
Does anyone know who the editor says during the period that introduced Jura Edgar and the Robin Hood-style Slaine by Staples and Langley? I actually really enjoyed that and thought the prog was starting to get back on track. Possibly because of the (as far as I recall) recent reintroduction of John Wagner on Dredd.
I wasn't mad about Dave Bishop's tenure; it had, to my mind, an awkward way of trying to balance on a tightrope between the New Lad culture of the day and poe-faced seriousness (I remember Tharg on the input page once sniffing 'I don't see the point of this ridiculous letter' shortly before disappearing from the prog altogether).
But I do realise that Dave was sort of handed a dying patient and was doing all he could to revive it so he did what he could. And the prog is still alive and kicking , so fair play.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 27 November, 2016, 02:32:23 PM
Does anyone know who the editor says during the period that introduced Jura Edgar and the Robin Hood-style Slaine by Staples and Langley? I actually really enjoyed that and thought the prog was starting to get back on track. Possibly because of the (as far as I recall) recent reintroduction of John Wagner on Dredd.
Those ran around July-Sept 1995, which means they went out under the Tomlinson/MacManus interim period*. They would have been commissioned several months in advance, obviously.
I tend to think of Mills and Wagner shaping the direction of their own strips, but it was MacManus's idea for The Pit to take the soap opera angle, so who knows what other influence he may have had (even on the Mills Bomb).
* McKenzie was let go in November 1994, according to TPO p168
Thanks! I do remember that as an improvement in quality - two Wagner Dredds in each prog, iirc. And while Robin Hood Slaine wasn't for everyone, I liked it a lot. Ditto Urban Strike. (even if I was the only one).
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 27 November, 2016, 02:25:45 PM
Quote from: Frank on 27 November, 2016, 02:00:23 PM
20,000 of those sales were lost due to a change of distributor
At least 20,000 of those were due to the change of distributor. McKenzie said that they lost 20,000 within a very few weeks of the change being imposed on them.
I've long argued that the catastrophic crash in 2000AD sales at this time was (forgive me) something of a double-whammy: reduced availability due to the distributor change, coupled with the comic just not being very good.
I think either of those things would have been bad for the comic, but in combination were disastrous. Almost overnight, 2000AD disappeared completely from the four or five newsagents on the route between my house at the time and university. The comic hadn't been much cop for some time, but as long as I could pick up a copy on a Saturday morning when I nipped out for a pint of milk and 20 B&H, it remained a habit.
Once I was looking at a trip into London to get one from FP or a big WH Smith branch...? Well, the comic just wasn't good enough for me to contemplate doing that. Obviously, I could have picked up multiple issues whenever I did go to FP, but once you break that weekly buying habit...
I think you have to add a third fact which is that first British comics and then American comics were all engulfed by a massive recession caused by both diminished youth interest due to competition from video games* and a worldwide paper shortage forcing rapid price increases. Whenever people talk about 2000AD's declining circulation issues they always miss out the fact that it was far from the only Anglophone comic to have a terrible 90s.
*I always thought the issue was less video games themselves (which after all were so expensive in the 90s that they were more centrepiece presents for birthdays or Christmas) but the boom in video game magazines which took shelf-space and pocket money away from comics.
Quote from: Frank on 27 November, 2016, 02:49:12 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 27 November, 2016, 02:32:23 PM
Does anyone know who the editor says during the period that introduced Jura Edgar and the Robin Hood-style Slaine by Staples and Langley? I actually really enjoyed that and thought the prog was starting to get back on track. Possibly because of the (as far as I recall) recent reintroduction of John Wagner on Dredd.
Those ran around July-Sept 1995, which means they went out under the Tomlinson/MacManus interim period*. They would have been commissioned several months in advance, obviously.
I tend to think of Mills and Wagner shaping the direction of their own strips, but it was MacManus's idea for The Pit to take the soap opera angle, so who knows what other influence he may have had (even on the Mills Bomb).
* McKenzie was let go in November 1994, according to TPO p168
I do think the key to making 2000AD successful has been keeping Wagner and Mills happy and productive. If you look at the key strength of Tomlinson/Bishop/Diggle compared to the first half of the nineties it was all the great Wagner Dredds. Likewise the immediate upswing in the quality of Mills' stories after Smith took over greatly improved the Prog.
Quote from: Will Cooling on 28 November, 2016, 12:29:12 PM
*I always thought the issue was less video games themselves (which after all were so expensive in the 90s that they were more centrepiece presents for birthdays or Christmas) but the boom in video game magazines which took shelf-space and pocket money away from comics.
Good point. My brother and his pals used to pirate games, but they'd spend silly money on games magazines.
What are the odds of scheduling a Burt-1 and Bish-Op bust-up at the 40th Birthday bonanza?
Quote from: AlexF on 30 November, 2016, 10:29:15 AM
What are the odds of scheduling a Burt-1 and Bish-Op bust-up at the 40th Birthday bonanza?
(http://i.imgur.com/YMAAh7z.png?2)