The Political Thread

[Dog Deever]

I never run from a fight so I will be voting NO. I will be standing with my leftist brothers and sisters in the rest of the UK to fight against Conservative State. The rest of the UK needs Scotland's benign hand to guide it. The rest of the UK needs to sort its shit out.

With respect, 8-Ball, I don't see a No vote advancing the Left cause in any way. A Yes win will set the far right in Scotland back YEARS. A No will set the left back years. Think Globally, act locally.

[ZenArcade]

Hear, hear DD. Z

[Frank]

My daughter has now confirmed her Yes status too. I was worried about this as her boyfriend (really pleasant and likable guy) is an all-singing and dancing, unrepentant sectarian bigot and an entrenched No voter who cannot see beyond the football vote, despite the fact he is a literate and intelligent young man, and I daresay many of his friends are the same.

God, yeah. Some of the most outrageous pish I've heard from friends, family, and colleagues during the debate has come from those planning to vote in the same way as me on Thursday. I'm definitely on the side of the bad guys, but that's for pragmatic reasons rather than ideology.

I really can't go see an outcome of independence other than a replication of the institutions and power structures of Westminster in Holyrood, probably with an incompetent and morally bankrupt Scottish Labour party I want nothing to do with in semi-permanent residency, or the Nats displaying the same tactical acumen in international and economic affairs as they did when they rolled over for Trump.

The promise is always that we need to take this one unpalatable step to make radical change possible, but both of the parties likely to dominate the politics of Indy Scotland are promising nothing more revolutionary than the 'vows' to devolve certain levels of decision making unveiled by the three Westminster parties today, which (rightly) impressed no-one.



(Continued)

[Dog Deever]

see now, THIS is the debate we SHOULD have been having instead of who's having what pound or where the RBS will be headquartered- that stuff is centrist mince.

If you want to strengthen unions you won't get that through voting No, only by voting Yes then campaigning for it. Tommy Sheridan (Solidarity) is also your leftist brother, as is the Radical Independence Movement and Scottish Socialist Party (all Yes). The idea is that a Yes will inspire the rest of the UK to start pushing for reform too, failure inspires nothing and no-one. One does not have to live in the same country as another for you to stand in solidarity as brothers and sisters- independence of Scotland, in that scenario, is a sideshow.

The Scottish Labour Party are finished.

[Frank]

(Continued)


Nobody likely to wield any sort of power in an independent Scotland is promising to destroy party politics and change the relationship between the electorate and their representatives in the way I consider necessary to break the stranglehold powerful economic actors and vested interests enjoy over public life in the British Isles today.

It's been genuinely exciting to see a grass roots movement of folk talking about social justice and mutual help as more important priorities than immigration or benefits cheats, but I'm deeply sceptical about the chances of that translating into the genuinely different form of government necessary to sustain those priorities beyond the binge and purge cycle of the last four UK parliaments.

I'm not rejecting the genuine aspirations of those people, I'm sticking two fingers up to what I believe will be no more than an unnecessarily expensive rebranding exercise with ill defined outcomes. I'm sceptical about the prospects of change being cynically proffered by the same tired faces for the same reason you're presumably distrustful of similar assurances of change in the event of a NO vote from Westminster.

[ZenArcade]

This is now officially an excellent debate. Some great posts from both sides in the argument. Z

[Dog Deever]

Sauchie- I had you pegged as a bit anarchist!

I understand your position, but if I held your view, personally I would refuse to take part and just not vote- THAT position I have a full understanding and respect for. A two fingered vote is fun and all- I just see it as destructive for those on the far left. There is a chance to build a new radical movement within whatever system the fatcats devise- a legacy for those who follow to push further. A No vote will put us back to the terrible state of leftist politics all over Britain. It's your vote and your view- fair enough, but I could not endorse it personally.

I also do not believe it is 'running away from a fight'- merely breaking into chunks more manageable for the sorry state of the radical elements in the left.

[8-Ball]

I never run from a fight so I will be voting NO. I will be standing with my leftist brothers and sisters in the rest of the UK to fight against Conservative State. The rest of the UK needs Scotland's benign hand to guide it. The rest of the UK needs to sort its shit out.

With respect, 8-Ball, I don't see a No vote advancing the Left cause in any way. A Yes win will set the far right in Scotland back YEARS. A No will set the left back years. Think Globally, act locally.

I get what you are saying and I have no intention of patronising you Dog but I do genuinely fear an English neighbour that is even more to the right than it already is. Personally, I hate the way that Scots have to wrap themselves up in the Union Jack to be accepted (Gordon Brown and Andy Murray being to notable examples) down south and I worry what will happen to other Scots living in the UK. I suspect that life will be made very hard for them.

[JOE SOAP]

Sauchie- I had you pegged as a bit anarchist!

I understand your position, but if I held your view, personally I would refuse to take part and just not vote-

An anarchist who votes?

[Dog Deever]

Sauchie- I had you pegged as a bit anarchist!

I understand your position, but if I held your view, personally I would refuse to take part and just not vote-

An anarchist who votes?

Of course- yes. There are many shades of anarchism. You cannot build based on mutual aid without some sort of participation in society. An anarchist works on empowerment from the bottom up- starting with yourself. Taking responsibility for your own political life, instead of leaving it for others to decide. Not all anarchists vote as I have said. Anarchism is not one whole ideology and no anarchist I know follows any anarchist ideology wholly and completely.
As such it is not about the advancement of an 'ideology' or manifesto, it is about taking whatever opportunities present themselves to try to forge a better life.

[Dog Deever]

I never run from a fight so I will be voting NO. I will be standing with my leftist brothers and sisters in the rest of the UK to fight against Conservative State. The rest of the UK needs Scotland's benign hand to guide it. The rest of the UK needs to sort its shit out.

With respect, 8-Ball, I don't see a No vote advancing the Left cause in any way. A Yes win will set the far right in Scotland back YEARS. A No will set the left back years. Think Globally, act locally.

I get what you are saying and I have no intention of patronising you Dog but I do genuinely fear an English neighbour that is even more to the right than it already is. Personally, I hate the way that Scots have to wrap themselves up in the Union Jack to be accepted (Gordon Brown and Andy Murray being to notable examples) down south and I worry what will happen to other Scots living in the UK. I suspect that life will be made very hard for them.

Can't argue with what you're saying at all man- I just believe you have come to the wrong conclusion about which way serves us best. Both of you- again only the opinion of one comic geek guy.

I am hoping the left radicals in England will see the value in unity- most of the workers revolts in history were initiated by a coming together of all elements the the left, including the Social Democrat parties. Makhno's anarchists in Ukraine were separatists; in the Spanish Civil War, the Catalan anarchists were separatist, and also in previous precursory uprisings.

I have no faith in the English leftist movement to wake up- they haven't so far, they are bogged down. The crux issue for the radical vote really centres around the rise of the right wing hard liners among the English electorate- it IS frightening. THAT is the radical vote south of the border- you and Sauchie, I'm absolutely certain, are in no doubt as to the Labour Parties status as a right of centre Red Tory party- everything this week and all they have done throughout the referendum proves it, if they hadn't already. There is no alternative to that really. Up here The SNP is the most left of all the mainstream political parties in Scotland now- Salmond, cleverly, picked up what Labour dropped and swung that vote his way- he outmaneuvered them politically and it got him into power (just) not because of support for him, but for independence- the only way for the leftist Labour voters to get away from the shambles of Blair, Brown and Ed Moribund. I see 'Yes' as a localised strategic vote with global ramifications. The dis-empowerment of the UK as an entity can never be a bad thing and the last gasps of imperial delusions, hopefully, will clear the decks for REAL change.
97% registered to vote in Scotland- 97% of the eligible population engaged in political debate and exchange- such an opportunity to reinvigorate the radical left will be utterly quashed by a No vote, IMO.

[8-Ball]

Fair enough, Dog.

[Dog Deever]

 
I had to at least try!
I hope I achieved some degree of success, but that's your business. I'm off for the night now.

[JOE SOAP]

Sauchie- I had you pegged as a bit anarchist!

I understand your position, but if I held your view, personally I would refuse to take part and just not vote-

An anarchist who votes?

Of course- yes. There are many shades of anarchism. You cannot build based on mutual aid without some sort of participation in society. An anarchist works on empowerment from the bottom up- starting with yourself. Taking responsibility for your own political life, instead of leaving it for others to decide. Not all anarchists vote as I have said. Anarchism is not one whole ideology and no anarchist I know follows any anarchist ideology wholly and completely.

Which, for me, is when things start to float more towards Libertarianism or Minarchism; I'd consider Anarchy to fundamentally concern abolition of statehood -before all else- and in the current context, the Yes & No vote represent the total opposite of, but that's a digression.

I've no runner in this race, but considering the variables, it's hard to make a wholly convincing argument for a Yes vote because it's ultimately a leap of faith: you can only ever know the outcome by doing it, whereas a No vote can only ever promise more of the same, so it will come down to whether the individual voter likes to gamble in the booth, or not.

[8-Ball]

As an example of what I fear here is a quote from the comments section on the Guardian website -

Don't think us Brits will be in anyway charitable to a new (foreign ) Scotland. You will become as close as France or Germany and we compete heavily with them ( and that will only increase -as the next 50 years of austerity bite). If Scotland goes it alone it will not only loose it's golden goose (Britain) it will find that a Rottweiler has taken its place. Modern survival is not a charity and countries will have to do lots of unthinkable things to protect their national interests - for Britain it will mean border controls for Scotland / no pound ( meaningful) for Scotland no customers for Scotland in England ( revenge will be sweet ) if you leave we will all suffer - who do you think will join the list of who to blame - it's human nature. Most divorces end in acrimony , a bit of hate and a lot of pain - don't think this won't happen - back to human nature again.

Scary, don't ya think. That there are people who think like this. Brrr.