The Political Thread

[Rately]

Brexit means ... at least one more vote (probably several): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37857785


Before the hallelujahs and goading begin, please remember how obnoxious you found it when Brexiters did so a few months ago.

If there's one thing this and the repellent US election should teach us it's that folk who want everything entirely their own way are the real enemy, and that grown ups resolve their differences by discussing the facts, listening to opposing views, and arriving at a compromise.

Which is what should have happened here in the first place.

Absolutely spot on, Frank.

Have to say, maybe its age, but i am sick and tired of people who should know better behaving like children, calling names etc. That applies to both sides of the arguement.

Dignity seems to have bypassed a few of our elected representatives.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Can't realistically see Brexit not happening at this stage of the game.  Though I'm far from happy with the referendum result (after all, it's going to affect our economy, too) , democracy is democracy.

[IndigoPrime]

What gets me is all the people banging on about parliamentary sovereignty and taking back control now having a massive hissy fit after the BRITISH courts afford the sovereignty of parliament over the executive. That should be a good thing, but of course it's only a good thing when it's to push through something you want rather than what you don't.

But, frankly, tough shit to the whiners. This ruling, assuming it's not overturned on appeal, now at least gives us a shot at a discussion and a compromise rather than the nutcase wing of the Conservatives directing the UK's future. I'm not sure what kind of compromise can be reached (not least given that Corbyn still doesn't seem to give a shit about Single Market membership), but I'm at least a little hopeful today, which has been something missing politically from my life for months now.

[Frank]

Can't realistically see Brexit not happening

Yeah, it just means the Fortress Britain fantasy version is impossible. Neither side gets what they wanted.

[TordelBack]

...democracy is democracy.

Except where it's a glorified opinion poll on issues which aren't even on the table; or when the question being voted on is so vaguely worded as to be essentially meaningless in terms of mandated actions and likely consequences. Had an actual proposal been put to the vote, outlining a timetable and envisaged outcome (say, to restrict movement but retain free trade, and how that would be achieved), then the people's decision could be respected.

As it is, it makes about as much democratic sense as 52% saying they don't like Mondays. Do you then have a mandate for a four day week, or the national anthem to be sung by Bob Geldof, or is it a vote for Jim Davis to replace the Queen. Who could tell?

[JayzusB.Christ]

...democracy is democracy.

Except where it's a glorified opinion poll on issues which aren't even on the table; or when the question being voted on is so vaguely worded as to be essentially meaningless in terms of mandated actions and likely consequences. Had an actual proposal been put to the vote, outlining a timetable and envisaged outcome (say, to restrict movement but retain free trade, and how that would be achieved), then the people's decision could be respected. As it is, it makes about as much democratic sense as 52% saying they don't like Mondays. And....?

Fair point...

[IndigoPrime]

The Leave side more often than not reminds me of evangelical Christians. They cherry pick all the time about what the vote meant, but discard what they no longer like. I've been yelled at that OF COURSE it meant leaving the Single Market, even though prior to the vote many Leave figures were advocating (temporarily or otherwise) a Norway-style deal. But that £350m to the NHS? That was just an example, or, if you're Farage, something that should never have been stated in the first place.

There's also false equivalency everywhere. "But both sides lied!" Sure, but one more than the other. It's like Trump vs Clinton, trying to say all the former's hideous failings are equivalent to messing up with an email server and doing the odd dodgy thing with a charity. I keep hearing about the emergency budget, too, even though that was based on Cameron immediately activating Article 50, and the shock that would result in. (That Sterling has now fallen almost to the 'worse case' many economists predicted is lost on many of the Leave side, or dismissed as a good thing. Whether they still think the same when goods and services catch up – as they will over the next few months – remains to be seen. I suspect many fence-sitters will be furious, but the EU or 'Remoaners' will somehow get the blame for our higher bills.) People also ignore the stabilising effect Carney had – and instead vilify him.

And now all across social media, people are openly calling for the legal team behind the defeat to be shot, and for the judges – at best – to be fired. What the fuck has this country become? Probably nothing different from how it was, bar scumbags now thinking it's OK to very publicly and continually call for such outrageous responses. And elsewhere, UKIP leadership candidates call for the return of the death penalty and people scoff. Yet UKIP is doing very well when it comes to making its headline desires actual policy. We cannot be complacent when extremists are trying to transform the very fabric of our country.

[Jim_Campbell]

We cannot be complacent when extremists are trying to transform the very fabric of our country.

I'm very seriously contemplating leaving. The Britain that I've always believed in: a tolerant, good-humoured, mildly anti-authoritarian nation of basically decent people has been exposed as a fantasy that never existed outside my head. I'm tired of swimming against the tide: I can earn my living anywhere I can plug in a computer and get on the internet. I'd rather pay my taxes in a political system where there's at least a chance of living under a government whose values vaguely coincide with my own.

[IndigoPrime]

We're mobile, too. We've had discussions. We feel complicit in all this shit if we stay. But also we've heavily invested in various areas (not least pumping a ton of money into our house), and aren't sure precisely where we'd go. Almost the available locations have at least some measure of awfulness related to the current shift in politics. (At our age, and with mini-IP, the EEA is basically it for us – and then only if I can secure an Irish passport, which is still an unknown, although something a few people have said is very unlikely to not happen when I apply.)

[The Legendary Shark]

We cannot be complacent when extremists are trying to transform the very fabric of our country.

I'm very seriously contemplating leaving. The Britain that I've always believed in: a tolerant, good-humoured, mildly anti-authoritarian nation of basically decent people has been exposed as a fantasy that never existed outside my head. I'm tired of swimming against the tide: I can earn my living anywhere I can plug in a computer and get on the internet. I'd rather pay my taxes in a political system where there's at least a chance of living under a government whose values vaguely coincide with my own.

I think that would be a shame, Jim. The vast majority of people I meet on my travels are basically normal, decent folk who just want a quiet life. Sure, most of them are grumpy because they just can't seem to get that quiet life and some of them are downright rude - but almost all are decent enough. They just latch on to the explanations given to them by media and politics and groupthink, the ones that make sense to them, and go with it. I'm not saying that's right and I'm not saying it's wrong, it's how things are.

I know precisely how you feel, Jim. Suddenly things look very different, darker and meaner, more dangerous, harder to understand. And it hurts because of all the faith invested in it over the years. It's like realising you've just been conned. It's natural to want to turn your back on it and walk away. My destination of choice was going to be Poland, a modest town fifty miles south of Warsaw. With the finest woman I ever knew.

Anyway. Nothing in reality had changed, though, only my perspective. It's not the fault of the people, they're bombarded with bullshit 24/7 so it's not surprising they're angry and confused. It's no good telling them that, of course, because humans are stubborn and love to cling to the familiar. Just as I did.

This country isn't its trade deals or its market memberships or its share price, it's not country, county and borough borders, it's not corporations or councils and it certainly isn't government. It's me. It's you. It's the human beings. Human beings being manipulated, deceived and exploited all over the shop. It's a huge problem, but how can one bloke stop it? Well, one bloke can't stop it - but one bloke can refuse to join in. It's all that's within my rights and within my power that I can do.

I know you and I see the world very differently, Jim, but I'd be sad to see you go. You should be using your passion and your talents in the trenches, living Your Life in whichever way you think is right and leading by example. That's why the countries we imagined didn't exist, because they're just a bunch of people trying to get through the day. Exactly like everywhere else. What the world needs is passion, passion to cut through the terrible universal inertia and get civilisation rolling again.

And, for all that we disagree, I think you have passion in spades. Use it.

[JPMaybe]

The Vote on Article 50 Gives Labour a Chance to Make Brexit Less Terrible: decent article by Sam Kriss in Vice. As much as it sucks that we're leaving, the EU has always been an oligarchic worker dicking machine that brutalised Greece and gives billions to homozygous aristocrat fucks and subhuman Saudi royals under the CAP. If in some magical, contrite for its imperialist enormities alt UK this had been a win for Lexit, I have to admit I'd be happy about the result.  I don't know if there's actually any chance of of keeping freedom of movement, one of the few unambiguously good bits of the EU, given only the hard left of Labour gives a fuck about the concept of itself.

[IndigoPrime]

Bizarrely, Corbyn seems to want to keep FOM but remove the UK from the SM, which is a rather... unique approach. As for Labour, alongside everyone else who was pro-Remain, there's no reason now that we can't strive for a decent end result. Well, bar Labour actually getting its shit together.

Oh.

[Grugz]

well at least we don't have trump.

[IndigoPrime]

True. That said, we can't vote out "leaving the EU" in four years.

[Goosegash]

There was at least one funny thing to come out of the last few weeks(nicked from Facebook, credit to Richard Pearce)