The Political Thread

[Professor Bear]

What can it hurt to try, Sharky?
When the Men In Grey rely upon us being disparate voices without unifying causes*, petitions are another way to centralise public feeling and sometimes they are even successful in their stated aims.  Mainly, though, it takes about ten seconds to sign one, and those ten seconds might be pretty much the only way some people will ever make any kind of political statement.  The alternative is to do actual and quantifiably nothing at all when it was a petition of less than 200,000 signatures that got rid of Maria Miller when she clearly had no intention of going anywhere.

In other news, the Tories surprise everyone yet again by actually finding ways to sink lower.  In this case, though, I'm willing to give IDS the benefit of the doubt - I genuinely think he just heard the words "rape survivor" and instinctively went on the defensive before he realised it wasn't a bunch of kids who'd been raped by MPs trying to circumvent a superinjunction.  But hey, on the bright side he's saved the taxpayer £11.65.





* The Irish government didn't count on water taxes unifying opposition and public disquiet and now they're all but admitting that they're fucked.

[The Legendary Shark]

Petitions are like asking the Master for something and, no matter how sensible or moral the request might be, agreeing to abide by the Master's decision. The very act of signing a petition legitimises the myth that there are people above us who are our Masters - people whom we must beg for grace and favours.
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If one must petition the government for a just and moral thing to be done, what does that say about the justice and morality inherent in government? It says that government sees itself as the arbiter and enforcer of morality and justice based on the opinions and interests of a handful of flawed rulers. It is like petitioning the local Mafia godfather to please not have his enforcers go around enforcing on a Sunday.
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Petitions, then, rather than being a tool of freedom are actually a symptom of oppression, creating the illusion of freedom whilst still relying upon the grace and favour of the ruling class. "Please, Sir, can I have some more?"

[M.I.K.]

That doesn't reflect the tone of any petitions I've ever read directed towards the government. Even less so some of the comments.

Those are more like a list of thousands of people telling them how crap and thick they are and how they should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves, even though we all know that's impossible for them because putrescent lizard creatures don't experience any human emotions, or something.

[The Legendary Shark]

The tone of the petition doesn't matter - nor does its content. A lighthearted petition to free a political prisoner and a vitriolic petition to ensure that the sun continues to rise every morning are equally ludicrous.
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If authority wants to release the prisoner it will and if it doesn't it won't and if it wants to investigate keeping sunrises happening it will and if it doesn't it won't.
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If you want the political prisoner released and you can get enough private support, and if your own conscience tells you that the cause is just, why not spring the political prisoner yourselves? If you are convinced that it is morally wrong for the prisoner to be held, how can it be morally right for you to depend on the immorality of the jailers to decide the prisoner's fate by asking the jailer to reconsider the decision?
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If you want to investigate ways of ensuring continued sunrises - then get yourself an astrolabe and some notepads and pens and go for it.
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Comments are just like slave gossip. Luckily, we live on a plantation that allows a certain level of gossip and grumbling - within reason. Mostly, they like you to gossip and grumble about irrelevant things like Corrie, X-Factor, celebrity bonk-a-thons, crackpot theories about shape-shifting lizards and politics. While the slaves are grumbling and gossiping about all that bullshit, they're not thinking about the most important questions, to whit - who are these Masters and just what makes them Masters over me, my life and my destiny anyway?
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Petitions are a symptom of oppression.

[Professor Bear]

Accepting and propagating the idea that people should make no effort at all because it's pointless so why bother even entertaining the notion that their opinion matters is also a symptom of oppression.

A petition, if nothing else, can be the first step in something larger - the person who signs a petition might one day think maybe it's time to up their game to attending an Occupy protest, and later they might end up sending letterbombs or go on a shooting spree on Wall Street, but none of that can happen without first daring to believe that their voice deserves to be heard.

[The Legendary Shark]

Heard by whom? There's still that unspoken assumption that you deserve to be heard by the Master so that he can decide whether what you're asking for is allowed or not.
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Doing nothing can be a powerful tool. Doing nothing about a tax demand, doing nothing about voting, doing nothing to help raise campaign funds - doing nothing is often as valid a strategy as doing something. But, as with everything in life, the trick is knowing which one to do, or not do, and when. Suppose they held an election and nobody voted?
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And, to be frank, nobody's voice "deserves" to be heard. One has the right to speak but nobody is obliged to listen. To say to government "I deserve this" is no different than the junior school pupil asking permission to go to the toilet - the teacher then decides whether you deserve to go or not. In a free society, if you want a piss you just go. If you want to speak, speak. If what you're saying interests people then they'll listen, if it doesn't then they won't.

[NapalmKev]

Here's a 'for instance'...

I decide to go to 10 Downing Street to 'Have a word' with Dangerous Dave and his cronies. Ultimately it ends in a Bloodbath as I AK-my-way to the door. Now I don't have 'the Right' to do this, but I am 'FREE' to at least attempt it as I govern my own destiny.

People are Free to do whatever they want, but something needs to keep that 'in check' otherwise we'd have wiped each other out years ago.

Cheers

[Professor Bear]

Doing nothing can be a powerful tool.

The last petition I signed was to give cancer drugs to people in Wales.

[The Legendary Shark]

The thing that keeps us "in check" is our own personal morality. Sure, there will always be lunatics who think that AKing their way to freedom is acceptable behaviour and it makes no difference to that heed-th-bau whether there's a government or not.
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And still you assume that it is authority that needs to change - either via persuasion or coercion - and not you.
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Your argument seems to be that, without an authority to tell everyone what to do and how to behave, human beings are intrinsically too savage and stupid to be trusted with running their own lives - you'd rather the ruling class Forced Everyone to live in ways which you find acceptable and to punish those who want to live in different ways than let people decide for themselves.
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I find the idea that removing authority would automatically lead to complete and terminal anarchy. Well, newsflash - there is only ever anarchy and chaos, you deal with it every day. When you drive, you drive on the left and follow the rules of the road - not because authority tells you to but because you don't want to get maimed or killed. You pay the man in the shop for your comic not because authority tells you to but because you think it's proper to do so. When walking on a busy pavement you don't dodge around and negotiate paths with other pedestrians because authority tells you to, you do it because you don't want to go falling over people and spilling your shopping.
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There are billions of human interactions every day that have no earthly need for government interference or authoritarian control, so this crackpot idea that government is necessary for peace and civilization really has had its day.
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[The Legendary Shark]

And you think that a system of government that has to be petitioned/begged to provide life saving medicine to the sick of Wales (or anywhere within its claimed jurisdiction) is a legitimate and moral entity worthy of your continued support? Seriously?
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If you feel that strongly about it, buy the drugs yourself and take them to Wales. Don't just sign a petition and hope that other people are going to fix this for you because they aren't - not unless they can figure out a way to profit from it, anyway.

[Professor Bear]

Well the petition has a comments section if you want to say all that:  https://www.change.org/p/give-all-cancer-patients-in-wales-access-to-a-cancer-drugs-fund

EDIT TO ADD: if anyone reading the thread for potential car-crash hilarity is considering signing that petition, please feel free to do so.

[NapalmKev]

Your argument seems to be that,without an authority to tell everyone what to do and how to behave, human beings are intrinsically too savage and stupid to be trusted with running their own lives - you'd rather the ruling class Forced Everyone to live in ways which you find acceptable and to punish those who want to live in different ways than let people decide for themselves.
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I think you assume a Lot about other People, Shark!

Accusations of Facism aside; you think that People are intrinsically "Good" and Altruistic, but in many parts of the World that simply isn't the case; Irrespective of Goverment Involvement.

Cannibals-Exercising there "Right" to Freedom in the name of Eating each other!

Cheers

[TordelBack]

Cannibals-Exercising there "Right" to Freedom in the name of Eating each other!

Vast majority of cannibalism is ritual in nature, and occurs as a by-product of conflict killing or funerary ritual, or in starvation situations.  Very rarely are people killed specifically to be eaten, far more common is eating those who are already dead for other reasons - which aside from the infection risk never struck me as quite the nadir of human depravity that it's made out to be.  Vanishingly rare Damheresque psychopaths excepted. 

Using cannibalism as part of a 'look what humans get up to when Mummy isn't watching them!' argument is dangerously close to the imperialist narrative of base savages in need of subjugation by their betters to save them from themselves.  I'd find a less loaded analogy to support your (not unreasonable) argument if I were you.

[NapalmKev]

Cannibals-Exercising there "Right" to Freedom in the name of Eating each other!

Using cannibalism as part of a 'look what humans get up to when Mummy isn't watching them!' argument is dangerously close to the imperialist narrative of base savages in need of subjugation by their betters to save them from themselves.  I'd find a less loaded analogy to support your (not unreasonable) argument if I were you.

You're absolutely right, and I really shouldn't post while drunk to be quite honest!

I'll try again at the risk of making myself look a bigger fool than before.

People are not born with a hatred for each other (in as much as I've observed). But, some people will inherently err towards their own wellbeing over that of others even to the extent of causing pain/suffering just to ensure a comfortable existence for themselves.

People have always Warred over the right to exist whether there was Governing body or not, survival is hardwired. But, for some people "Survival" means Crushing anyone in your way just for the sake of a comfortable existence.

Cheers

[The Legendary Shark]

Some people are bad and selfish. Yes. Absolutely they are - and some people always will be. That has nothing to do with whether there's a government or not. In fact, it takes the involvement of governments for real nastiness to raise its ugly head.
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The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Holocaust, Stalin's great purges, apartheid, too many massacres to count, world wars - each and every one of them caused by government.
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I am more worried about our governments dragging me into a nuclear war than I am about getting cannibalised by my neighbours.
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I think you'll find that the majority of people in the world are intrinsically "good" - it's in our nature as a social species to be so - no matter which part of the world they come from. Give some of those people guns and authority over their fellows and that's where the problems start (see the Stanford Prison Experiments). If you fell out of the sky, naked and injured, in any part of the world, I think that there's a much higher chance of the local people helping you rather than eating or just arbitrarily murdering you. If you fell out of the sky, naked and injured, into the hands of a government or authority, the chances of you being hurt rise dramatically.
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So yes - there are bad people in the world who do bad things and most of them work for government where they can do the Most Harm. The bad people, being in "authority", pass legislations designed to help them and their fellows by stealing (taxing, fining, charging) from the majority of good people. Good people knuckle under, pay up and do as they're told - because good people obey the law irrespective of who wrote it or why. .