The Political Thread

[Modern Panther]

I'm not being at all facetious.  I think that by the time of mass rallies it was too late.  I also think that the Nazis were not going to be stopped by public debate, and that extremists pretend to debate only to further their own position. 

The rise of the Nazis was a product of a people damaged by war, traumatized and sold easy answers.  They had limited information and were desperate.  Not many people supported Hitler because of his "kill everyone we regard as different" policy.  They voted for Hitler because of his "make Germany great again" policy.  Neo Nazis have mobile phones.  They are aware that the end point of their ideology is gas chambers and furnaces, and they welcome it.  They cannot be debated, because you're not going to provide the with any new information thats going to bring about an epiphany.  They already know your viewpoint, they just regard you as weak for not killing them in the same way they would happily kill you and everyone you care about.

[JamesC]

I'm not being at all facetious.  I think that by the time of mass rallies it was too late.  I also think that the Nazis were not going to be stopped by public debate, and that extremists pretend to debate only to further their own position. 

The rise of the Nazis was a product of a people damaged by war, traumatized and sold easy answers.  They had limited information and were desperate.  Not many people supported Hitler because of his "kill everyone we regard as different" policy.  They voted for Hitler because of his "make Germany great again" policy.  Neo Nazis have mobile phones.  They are aware that the end point of their ideology is gas chambers and furnaces, and they welcome it.  They cannot be debated, because you're not going to provide the with any new information thats going to bring about an epiphany.  They already know your viewpoint, they just regard you as weak for not killing them in the same way they would happily kill you and everyone you care about.

Well yes, these are the really scary fuckers but I think for every one of these there are 50 or 100 weak willed morons who are being dragged along.
You and I may know a bit of history but if you're an idiot who's just been given his first swastika t-shirt and sent a link to 'Nazis are great.com' you can soon have historical facts indoctrinised out of you.
Like I said, it's radicalisation.

[TordelBack]

The facts are that in the '20 and early '30s the Sturmabteilung brownshirts won the 'street war' against the Communists and Social Democrats, their dominance in disruptive violence meaning that only Nazi rallies and marches went ahead, other political opposition parties struggled to be heard.

Perhaps if even more people had punched them then, things would have been different.

Of course back then, unlike now, people didn't have concrete evidence of the utter evil of the Nazis, they could still wear their period-equivalent MAGA hats and look plausibly sharp. So perhaps their opponents could be forgiven for not trying harder to kick the crap out of them. I don't think that excuse holds much water nowadays.

(Worth noting that Hitler promptly had the SA leaders killed in '34 when he didn't want to be associated with their violence, the very violence that had handed him power).

[Professor Bear]

Nazis are just a gang of stupid hooligans, but they do serve a purpose - let them get rid of the Communists. Later, we'll be able to control them.

[TordelBack]

Now I feel bad for my 'idiotic' extremist position on Nazis: no less a light than President Trump has confirmed that as well as bad people, there were good people on both sides in Charlottesville.  Good Nazis, probably just out for an evening stroll in their fashionable swastika regalia. But it's okay, David Duke, late of the KKK, thanked him for this endorsement on all our behalves.

[Eric Plumrose]

Good Nazis, probably just out for an evening stroll in their fashionable swastika regalia.

Unless namechecked at Yad Vashem we'll just have to assume they have an architect's eye.

[JamesC]

The facts are that in the '20 and early '30s the Sturmabteilung brownshirts won the 'street war' against the Communists and Social Democrats, their dominance in disruptive violence meaning that only Nazi rallies and marches went ahead, other political opposition parties struggled to be heard.

Perhaps if even more people had punched them then, things would have been different.

Of course back then, unlike now, people didn't have concrete evidence of the utter evil of the Nazis, they could still wear their period-equivalent MAGA hats and look plausibly sharp. So perhaps their opponents could be forgiven for not trying harder to kick the crap out of them. I don't think that excuse holds much water nowadays.

(Worth noting that Hitler promptly had the SA leaders killed in '34 when he didn't want to be associated with their violence, the very violence that had handed him power).

Well let's fucking teach people this stuff then. I didn't know this.
Honestly, I think this stuff should be taught at school. I don't just mean as history but extremist beliefs and ideas should really be studied and examined in order to be debunked.
If we think an idea is bad and dangerous, surely it's better to bring that idea into the open and watch it wither in the light of rationality rather than to lock it in a box and say we'll punish or judge anyone who mentions it.

[The Legendary Shark]

And, as I have said before, the powers and rights of governments must be curtailed to parity with those of individuals. The habit of the state to initiate violence for whatever reason it deems necessary is by far the biggest threat to humanity existent today. Vote a Nazi "into power" and, as we have seen, and he or she will use that power for vile purposes. Limit the powers and rights of government and the danger is greatly reduced.

Education and equality.

[TordelBack]

No need for governments, these fine people here are going to clear the streets of  the "communist Jews and criminal niggers" that run everything. Then we can all live in stateless harmony.

I strongly advise watching that video, it has all the open expression of views you could ever want. Although I do accept that the occasional sinister music wasn't necessary, and selective editing is magic, you get more than enough straight to camera unedited lengthy declarations for everything to be absolutely crystal clear. Nazi tactics, Nazi objectives.

[Modern Panther]

The second amendment, which Trump is of course an adamant supporter, actually requires for militias to form in defence of the democratic state in times of crisis.  Nazis and Confederates have a stated aim of destroying the democratic state with violence.  It is an American duty to punch Nazis and Thomas Jefferson says so.

[TordelBack]

Well let's fucking teach people this stuff then. I didn't know this.
Honestly, I think this stuff should be taught at school. I don't just mean as history but extremist beliefs and ideas should really be studied and examined in order to be debunked.

I wasn't aware this stuff wasn't taught. In fact I regularly hear complaints that 'sexy' stuff like the rise of fascism, WWII and the Holocaust take up too much of school history curriculums. But then my school days were 30 years ago, and in another country.

For me the clearest indication of the value of denying fascists the freedom of the streets is England's experience: British fascism was effectiveky destroyed at Cable Street. If those people had stayed at home, not thown punches (and stones), and let Moseley's scum get on with their march unmolested, who's to say his crap wouldn't have gained the same kind of traction it did elsewhere. You can claim that the British character and inter-war experience was comparatively stony ground for their message and Moseley was a poor substitute for the European demagogues, but that's the beauty of hindsight.

[Modern Panther]

. Limit the powers and rights of government and the danger is greatly reduced.

The guy with the Confederate flag and the machine gun would agree.  Explain to me how the government getting less involved in this situation would make things better.

[Leigh S]

Indeed - I can't follow your anti-State argument whenit cpmes to defending against Nazis and otehr extremists - what would happen is groups would form for good or ill, and in the vacuum of no one claiming an authoratitve power, thuse groups would.  You would then need to band together to claim a greater authority than said nutters, but if violence isnt your claim to power, all that is left is numbers, and a pretty good way to legitimise numbers is a voting system, whereby the powerless individual can combine his power into a statement - otherwise,mob rule is exactly what you would get. 

I don't think it is much of a coincidence that both Nazis and Islamic Extremists deny the rule of law and believe they have the right to take power.  The lack of a standing Government would be pure heaven to any extremist

[sheridan]

Well let's fucking teach people this stuff then. I didn't know this.
Honestly, I think this stuff should be taught at school. I don't just mean as history but extremist beliefs and ideas should really be studied and examined in order to be debunked.

I wasn't aware this stuff wasn't taught. In fact I regularly hear complaints that 'sexy' stuff like the rise of fascism, WWII and the Holocaust take up too much of school history curriculums. But then my school days were 30 years ago, and in another country.

Me neither - just about everything I know about history other than 'History of Medicine' and 'England 1815-1851' I learnt myself.

[sheridan]

Me neither - just about everything I know about history other than 'History of Medicine' and 'England 1815-1851' I learnt myself.

(and most of the stuff I know about Victorian England I also learnt myself, probably inspired by Nemesis the Warlock Book IV and after that, Luther Arkwright.