The changing view of an older Squax.

[JayzusB.Christ]

I was just re-reading The Dark Knight returns, and thinking about how the first time round I thought this Batman was cool and edgy, whereas now I see him as entitled rich man with a serious superiority complex who beats up people from lower classes. 

So I turned my thoughts to some prog characters and how I saw them as a kid compared to how I see them as a boring middle-aged man.

Early Sláine then - a fierce barbarian hero even if he's a bit of a bully. Now - a boozy, horny teenage thug whose adventures I enjoy anyway.

Zenith then - kind of cool for all his faults.  Now - it's just the faults.  Even his music was rubbish.

Peter St John - well, of course he's not a hippy any more,  he's old. Now - mate, you're looking a bit rough for only 42, and how the feck does an idealistic peacenik turn into a Thatcher lackey so  quickly?

Danny Franks then - an interesting soldier with some great action scenes.  Now - a terrified kid slowly letting the horror turn him into a hardened killer, as per the previously innocent kids in Vietnam.  It could happen to any of us.

Stan Lee then- the most exciting Dredd character to appear in years. Now - I find normal person Blondel Dupree far more interesting.

Dog Deever then - an edgy punk with cool fighting skills. Now - a nasty little shit whose mother deserved better.

Straying from the prog again, I used to think Lennie from Shade the Changing Man was the coolest and sexiest character ever. Now she looks like she's trying a bit too hard to be kooky. She's still hot though - way too young for me, of course.

More will probably follow.

[nxylas]

Peter St John - well, of course he's not a hippy any more,  he's old. Now - mate, you're looking a bit rough for only 42, and how the feck does an idealistic peacenik turn into a Thatcher lackey so  quickly?

I don't know the exact figures, but a lot of Thatcher's vote came from former hippies. I worked for quite a few Peter St Johns back in the '80s.

[Barrington Boots]

I used to think Deadlock was cool, but now it seems clear he's a massive bellend.

Dante is of course ripe for this topic of conversation! It's been interesting listening to this being discussed on Simon & Edie's podcast. I know his character growth is a big part of the story but some of his early stuff that was meant to be cool is very cringey.

[Colin YNWA]

Straying from the prog again, I used to think Lennie from Shade the Changing Man was the coolest and sexiest character ever. Now she looks like she's trying a bit too hard to be kooky. She's still hot though - way too young for me, of course.

So, so much to agree with in that opening post but this one in particular struck home having thought about Shade a bit lately.

[Fortnight]

I'm in the interesting position of coming to a lot of older material now for the first time, so I'm looking, fresh, both with adult eyes and without rose-tinted spectacles, for the most part.

Regarding Lenny in Shade, having almost read it all now* I haven't got annoyed by her much - in fact at first I didn't even realise it was a her. Right at her introduction she seemed like a bit of an effete male, and that probably coloured my interpretation of her opening dialogue which did annoy me, but she doesn't seem inherently annoying now. I'd agree with "trying too hard to be kooky" though, but that's really what she is. Perhaps as a youngster that aspect passed unnoticed?

Having read Colin's comment about her in his Top 100 I was bracing myself for an annoying character, but I'm fine with it. Probably on a re-read knowing what to expect would change my perception. So there's the matter of foreknowledge of the characters & stories that may also influence your adult perceptions.



*I took a break to listen to my knee-high-and-growing pile of recently bought and unlistened-to records, cos I can't read & listen to music at the same time.

[broodblik]

The obvious one is Dredd, the younger me though he was a real hero but you realize quite quickly in real life do you want such a police force.

Nemesis is for me very similar that I though he was a hero but in many senses he is just as bad as Torquemada. Nemesis does not have a real good guy in such a sense.

[Barrington Boots]

Yeah, Nemesis is a nasty bit of work. It's been a while since I read it, but I think the realisation he wasn't a good guy started to creep in around Vengeance of Thoth, blowing up school kids and that. It takes some time but I think Purity starts to emerge as the hero of the book after that?

[IndigoPrime]

While I wasn't a fan of the later Nemesis books, I think one thing Mills totally nailed was that point of the two leads both being massive arseholes. Torquemada was a bigot who thought his ideology sacrosanct. Nemesis was so powerful that it was all a game for a bored 'god' – one that ended up costing him personally, but honestly never to the point you knew whether what he lost mattered more than the game that was being played. As Boots notes, that bit with the children was quite the turn. That was all skilfully played by Mills.

It's also interesting to see how different people respond to the old thrills now, either through revisiting them, coming to them fresh, or remembering them nostalgically – rather than actually rereading them. There's a clear contingent of 'why did 2000 AD go woke?', holding up the 1970s comics as a bastion of quality. Then there are long-term fans who have an element of nostalgia in their thinking, but can approach the old comics critically and objectively. And then there are total newcomers, who come at 2000 AD from various angles.

For me, there's also an element with this of the characters vs the production. So, yeah, Zenith is a self-absorbed arsehole. Although even at the time if you were in any doubt of that, Phase III should have cured you. But I still find the series itself rereadable and engaging. But whereas I thought Robo-Hunter was buckets of fun when I was a kid – not least because of those amazing robot designs – I find it really hard going now. My brain files it alongside ancient Marvel, in the sense of the underlying production being sexist, racist, etc, rather than just the lead being an arse.

Dante will be an interesting one when I get around to it again. I hope it holds up. My take at the time was he was a prick who was forced to grow up because of all the horrors surrounding him.

[Hawkmumbler]

Dantes development begins surprisingly early one, even before Tsar Wars.
Before rereading the series for a 'ahem' post on another 'ahem' thread, I was cautiously aware a few things may just not feel great by my modern sensibilities but you know what, nowhere near as much as I would have thought. The weirdest stuff is mostly condensed into that first volume/batch of stories.

[broodblik]

I have reread Dante a few times and I still enjoy as much when I read it for the first time. I think he was suppose to be a arsehole in the beginning and over time he evolved.

Zenith I knew from the begining whom he was so even today I see him in the same light when I first read it.

[Funt Solo]

There's a sense that Zenith is a plot device, but Peter St. John is the real protagonist.

[Funt Solo]

I used to think Deadlock was cool

It's a bit like if you hired the KLF as your bank managers.

 - "So, you burned all of my money as part of an art project, except for $23, which you've stapled to a dead sheep?"
 - "Khaos demanded it!"

[JayzusB.Christ]

Dante for me is a bit different, in that I was an adult when it started.

I didn't like the story much, and I hated the character. He was a smug little shit  and I just didn't get why people liked him. 

After the war knocked him about a bit and he lost the shite hairstyle, I found myself warming to him a bit then at the end liking him, and in the process realising what an amazing world Robbie and the artists had built.

[Le Fink]

I first read Zenith as a lad. He made a difference in book 1 (finally killing the super Nazi) and 2 (talking down Richard Branson) but 3 and 4 he was mostly whining and running away. He started a brat, and ended a brat. I still enjoy reading it today though.

[karlos]

Zenith barely being in it was one of the many things I loved about Phase 3