The Political Thread

[The Legendary Shark]

"To save lives" - the eternal excuse of the tyrant and tyrannised alike.

[Tombo]

It also reminds me of several documentaries I've seen about UTILITARIANISM. The most morally reprehensible acts can be perpetrated in the name of Peace and Freedom. (I can't find the link at the mo' but the gist of one such interview with an advocate of Utilitarianism was that he would justify the torture of a criminals/terrorists Children if the result was that said Criminal/terrorist revealed information that could "Save Lives", an argument I feel is a total Crock of Shit!!)

Cheers

"Better a thousand innocents suffer than one guilty soul escape justice" - Official credo of the Imperial Inquisition.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

It's important to note that Obama isn't saying he authorised torture, approves of it or indeed that it was done whilst he has been president.

The weird phrasing has distracted people from the fact that this all happened under George W. Bush and that Obama isn't defending it.

[ZenArcade]

Fair point JBA, but I don't see any major clamour on his behalf to bring the culprits to justice; or for that matter to deal with the Guantanamo issue either. Z

[TordelBack]

Once a State starts using torture it has lost all understanding of what it exists to stand in opposition to.  Even from a entirely 'utilitarian' point of view it's complete nonsense, merely a way for clueless thugs to mask their incompetence with the secret thrill of dirty deeds done in your name: we'll do whatever it takes to protect this nation, damnit.  And while there should be no surprises about how glibly the admission is delivered, even as the same administration deems it appropriate to resupply the monstrous aggression of Israel, it does remind us how morally bankrupt the US - and the West - now is.

[JayzusB.Christ]

The West has been morally lacking for quite some time.

Here's a podcast that shows that America has used outsider threats in the past as an excuse to amp up its naturally tendency towards viciousness and oppression:

http://www.dancarlin.com//disp.php/hharchive/Show-40---(BLITZ)-Radical-Thoughts/Hoover-Palmer%20Raids-Red%20Scare

[ZenArcade]

I have many american friends, a huge amount of american relatives and care passionatly about them. I love many things about america in terms of culture and history. It is an intellectual powerhouse and a wellspring of creativity. We are blessed with many american forum members (our mimikeke for instance).
My views on the subject here are intense but aimed at the last number of administrations and the  puppetmasters behind them.
But frankly this current administration which promised so much is the bitterest blow of all. Tbey are nothing more than a wolf to the weak and a rabbit to the strong. Z

[The Legendary Shark]

Torture is also a good deterrent to dissent by your own people. If you criticise certain things then you might get mistaken for a terrorist and tortured to save lives. So you'd best be careful what you say.
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Once you admit that torture is justified in some cases you imply it might be justified in others - and that implication allows for "mission creep". Today they torture terrorists, tomorrow they torture suspected terrorists, next week they torture the friends of suspected terrorists and next month they torture whomever they damn well please.
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And I agree with Zen - the USA could be such a force for good in the world if only it could get out from under the influence of those greedbags at the top. But then, that's true of the UK and the EU, and even the UN, as well.

[JayzusB.Christ]

I have many american friends, a huge amount of american relatives and care passionatly about them. I love many things about america in terms of culture and history. It is an intellectual powerhouse and a wellspring of creativity. We are blessed with many american forum members (our mimikeke for instance).
My views on the subject here are intense but aimed at the last number of administrations and the  puppetmasters behind them.
But frankly this current administration which promised so much is the bitterest blow of all. Tbey are nothing more than a wolf to the weak and a rabbit to the strong. Z

Fair point.  I have American friends and relatives too; and shouldn't have generalised in my previous post.  As you say, it's the government (like so many governments) that operates in a belligerent and oppressive manner, not the people.

[TordelBack]

Oh aye, I've nothing against the US or Americans in general (it's an amazing place with profoundly decent people), and I certainly don't think this gross immorality is a new thing, or unique to that country.  I just wince when I see how it is treated publicly - not as a cause for resignations or national shame or re-dedication to principles, just 'shit happens'. Nixon is (rightly) demonised for his lies and manipulations, but was it really worse than what has gone on in plain sight for the last dozen years? 

[JOE SOAP]

It's important to note that Obama isn't saying he authorised torture, approves of it or indeed that it was done whilst he has been president.

The weird phrasing has distracted people from the fact that this all happened under George W. Bush and that Obama isn't defending it.

Then why doesn't he close the 12-years-in-operation Guantanamo Bay concentration camp like he promised during his election run?

[ZenArcade]

Jayzus my comment was in no way aimed at you or any of the other posters here. I find most of the posters on this thread thoroughly decent, reflective people and am happy to exchange views. Z

[Frank]

Once a State starts using torture it has lost all understanding of what it exists to stand in opposition to.  Even from a entirely 'utilitarian' point of view it's complete nonsense, merely a way for clueless thugs to mask their incompetence with the secret thrill of dirty deeds done in your name: we'll do whatever it takes to protect this nation, damnit.  And while there should be no surprises about how glibly the admission is delivered, even as the same administration deems it appropriate to resupply the monstrous aggression of Israel, it does remind us how morally bankrupt the US - and the West - now is.

http://youtu.be/ToKcmnrE5oY?t=21s

[The Legendary Shark]

The US could be such a force for good in the world if it wasn't for the greedbags in charge. Still, that could be said of almost anywhere, including our own sceptred isles.
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Obama hasn't shut down Guantanamo because he can't - he doesn't have the power. The president/prime minister/dictator is just the captain of the ship of state - it's the ship owners (or those who believe themselves to be so) who decide its course. The main role of the captain is to keep the crew and passengers in line and avoiding bumping into other ships.
.
I know, I know - I'm a cynical old git...

[JayzusB.Christ]

Jayzus my comment was in no way aimed at you or any of the other posters here. I find most of the posters on this thread thoroughly decent, reflective people and am happy to exchange views. Z

No worries, I knew it wasn't about me.  But it made me realise that my previous post was a bit of a crass generalisation.