The Political Thread

[JayzusB.Christ]

Aye, it's a strange one ... one of my mates, a huge, tattooed muscle-freak who dropped off the employment spectrum after considerable drug-abuse and mental breakdowns, claimed welfare for years.  He's now a tax inspector.  Funny old world.

[Frank]

There was a fuck load of admin needed to defeat the Nazis too like.

Arf! Although the Carcharodon of Legend definitely Godwined the thread, I don't think he accused anyone of being a Nazi.

Ascribing any moral valency to the actions of folk who counter sign form V62(a) and retain the pink copy for their own records is pointless, since - like everyone else - they go through life making sure they perform their own specific function in a much larger system in a manner which avoids immediate censure from elsewhere.

Those in any large corporation (no matter their rank) consider themselves a single cog in a much larger machine, and just assume someone else, somewhere, has considered whether what they're up to in general is either effective or morally justifiable.

[ZenArcade]

Yep sauchie there's that herd instinct thing andd the totally rad whistleblowing policies which shine such a light on the murkier aspects of delivery of service...like f**k, try raising your head above the parapet and some 'facilitator' from a human resource unit (how I despise that terminology, they used to be called personnel, but why use one word when three will suffice) will be waiting with a smile on their face and a big bucket of crap to dump right over you for ever and ever and ever.

[Professor Bear]

My brother works claims processing for the Social Services and was told to draft and sign a letter addressed to a man who recently lost his wife.  The subject of the letter was that she was fraudulently claiming Jobseeker's Allowance until her death because she should have been claiming sickness benefits instead, as she was given a terminal diagnosis by a doctor and thus was not technically "available for work" when she said she was - so as her spouse, the SS was tithing his benefits until the sum was repaid.  My brother refused point blank to draft the letter and made it clear he'd be signing nothing of the sort.  It's people who work these jobs, not robots - the buck stops somewhere.

[The Legendary Shark]

Great post, Mikey, thanks. I'll answer your points as best I can.
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I'm not against welfare at all. In fact, I think it's a vital component in any enlightened state. My beef is with the way it is presently funded and applied. I won't go into the financing aspect here as I think my views on that have already been extensively ranted about by me.
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When I first fell ill and applied for benefits I was denied because as one of my hobbies I listed writing. Writing, I was told, is a job - whether one gets paid for it or not. The civil servant helping me with my claim advised me to change 'writing' to 'watching television' and, hey presto, benefits were then granted. ("You can still write," she whispered conspiratorially, "just don't tell us about it.") I still write and have been published in organs like Zarjaz and Paragon but I don't get paid for it (probably with good reason!), so if the DWP found out about my scripts seeing print I'd be in lumber. To me, this is a complete nonsense. The work of amateurs and hobbyists such as myself does, in a minor way, help the economy: paper, ink and staple manufacturers make a sliver of cash out of our work as do printers and the Royal Mail. Our work brings a little joy into readers' lives and also gives me a good feeling, as if I'm actually contributing in my own infinitesimal way to the culture of this country. If I could earn enough money from my writing to pay my way without claiming benefits then I'd be content but I can't and probably never will. Writing also helps me - a kind of therapy almost - but to the government it is work that could be monetized despite the realities of the publishing world.
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As I was making my tea tonight (I probably can't admit to cooking for myself either because if I can cook for myself I can cook for others and if I can cook for others I could get a job as a chef) I heard some politician on the radio spouting about the need to get people off benefits and back to work, which is what I want to do. My own Council, though, has just practically forced me into claiming benefits so I can afford to pay it for renting my council flat. I suspect the DWP is going to be reluctant to pay me very much due to my part time job, which is far better for my health than sitting around staring at the telly all day, and this is going to lead to me being worse off than if I were doing nothing. It's a classic Catch-22; try to help yourself out of benefits and you're hammered for it, sit around doing nothing and get constantly hounded to prove that you're sitting around doing nothing. It's insane.
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In respect to courts and such, to me going to court is a Last Resort. Only when all avenues of compromise and negotiation have been exhausted should both parties go to court in order to get assistance in coming to an agreement. Instead, my council uses court action as a threat - and a hollow one at that as being in debt is not a crime and therefore any invitation to attend a court hearing under such circumstances is entirely voluntary. To suggest to anyone that an invitation to court Must Be Obeyed is, baldly, a lie. My aim is to leave the courts out of it and deal honestly and fairly with each other without immediately claiming that the slightest disagreement automatically needs lawyers, judges and magistrates to step in. How much money has my council wasted in paying for solicitors, hire of court rooms, judges, bailiffs, paperwork and God knows what else when all they really needed to do was talk to me reasonably? In short, I'm using the primacy of Common Law to keep out of the courts, not to fight court battles.
This is also the reasoning behind the charges I've imposed upon the Council - they're not there primarily to be paid but as an incentive to deal with me directly and evenly. If the Council does want to continue along the court path and invite me to see a magistrate to get me to pay them a couple of grand in back-rent (or whatever), do they really want me to risk saying to the judge, "okay, I give in, I'll pay up - now, time to consider my £40,000 counter-claim"? It's simply taking their own tactic and using it against them (and thanks for the legislation, by the way, that'll help me a great deal).
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The only way you can be forced to court is if you break the Common Law (by causing actual loss, actual harm or actual damage) - the vast majority of court hearings are voluntary (hence the vital importance of knowing the legalese meaning of the word 'understand'). So if one accepts an invitation to court and then starts banging on about the unfairness and injustice of it all you're not going to get anywhere - it would be like accepting an invitation to play Monopoly and turning up with a chess set and expecting to somehow use your Queen as a Get Out Of Jail Free card - you'll just get crushed, and serve you right, too. (Note to self: Contact Waddington's re new game idea, 'Chessopoly'...)
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Finally, and arguably most importantly, I don't think that civil servants are Nazis. In my anger I may have given that impression and, if this is the case, I unreservedly apologise. My fear is that the civil service (whose role, as I understand it, is to facilitate the smooth running of the country and enact the policies of government) can easily be unwittingly used for fascistic purposes. The civil servants do indeed turn the handle but it's governments who decide what the machine does, what goes in one end and what comes out the other.
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If a modern Hitler were to rise to power in this country and pass laws expelling all foreign nationals, it would be the civil servants who would be charged with implementing these laws. How would the civil servants know if boatloads of deportees that they identified, notified and helped along their way were gassed to death and dumped in the ocean once out of sight of land?
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Civil Servants, just like the rest of us, must base all their actions on the Common Law. As was established at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII, and in many cases since, "I was just following orders" is no excuse. It was no excuse then and it is no excuse now.
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Damn, Mikey - you got me ranting again! (But then, that's not hard to do!) Great discussion, though, thanks for weighing in.  :-)

[The Legendary Shark]

Kudos to your brother, Prof - he's exactly the kind of civil servant we need.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

 I'd been avoiding this thread, but it looks like The Shark has earned his Legendary status.

Although, I have to say, Professor Bear is completely wrong.

He thinks his armchair is comfy, but he is wrong. He has never sat in MY comfy armchair.

[TordelBack]

He thinks his armchair is comfy, but he is wrong. He has never sat in MY comfy armchair.

DFS is the opiate of the masses.

[CrazyFoxMachine]

According to the ancient laws of the internet - because this has descended into a conversation about Hitler does that mean this thread will stop?

[ZenArcade]

I thought it'd moved on to armchair dictators? I hope I'm not 'Goring' to get in trouble for my last. 

[Hawkmumbler]

Facist!



....4 across, 6 letters. 

[Mikey]

Something I should add is that I'm 100% behind you on making a stand Sharky. I've been through similar circumstances at times and it takes a lot of commitment and energy to see it through - but I would never want someone to put themselves in a worse position than they are already in, especially ending up homeless which is no fun at all.

try to help yourself out of benefits and you're hammered for it, sit around doing nothing and get constantly hounded to prove that you're sitting around doing nothing. It's insane.

Yeah, it's mad isn't it? At least the person you spoke to let you know how to avoid extra hassles.

Civil Servants, just like the rest of us, must base all their actions on the Common Law. As was established at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII, and in many cases since, "I was just following orders" is no excuse. It was no excuse then and it is no excuse now.

That's what I'm getting at. It's too easy to hit what is really a soft target like a civil servant because they don't generally publically defend themselves for a variety of reasons. Does it extend to anyone in public service? Or has been paid either directly or indirectly from public funds? It's tarring a lot of people with the same shitty brush and there are plenty of civil or public servants that also need or are eligble to claim welfare and maybe are fighting the same battles as you are. The ministers and politicians hate civil servants too in most cases and perpetuating the blame allows the divide and conquer that suits the fuckers in power too well if you ask me. As Prof Bear says, it's people doing these jobs, who will listen and perhaps be willing to help if they can.

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Anyway - how's about that response lag to the awful flooding in England? I like how trying to blame the Environment Agency hasn't worked.

M.

[Theblazeuk]

It's ok, sooner or later it always hits the thames and the toffs get concerned.

[The Legendary Shark]

Yeah - usually they'd just blame climate change, but they've been going on about that for so long and even levying taxes on it that something like this flooding simply exposes the fraud. Where did all those carbon taxes go if not on weatherproofing the country?
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Into the pockets of the elites, of course, so they can just hop on jets to get them away from the rain any time they want. Dredging rivers, constructing dykes, dams and storm drains, building pumping stations etc., etc.? Sod that - the banks need free money to hide the fact that they're all bankrupt.
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Seems like climate change is only used as another excuse for stealing the wealth of nations for the benefit of the very few. I've been saying this for years and seeing the proof of it gives me no satisfaction at all. Sometimes it's so depressing to be right.

[Mikey]

Sometimes it's so depressing to be right.

Tell me about it!

M.